Should Festivals be Banned?

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Such is the post-post-post-punk blog view, via k-punk (nuke 'em) and Marcello:

The money that's being spent on all these Pimms tents by the moneyed middles is the money which they should actually be paying in the form of taxes to subsidise the health and education systems of this country. And then they'll all troop back off in their 4WDs to bloody Twickenham and Kensal Rise and complain articulately to dumb local 'phone-ins about how All Their Hard-Earned Taxes Are Going To Waste, the real subtext being Somewhere Else, Other People Are Having More Fun Than We Are And Are Less Mediocre Than Us. We settled for what we were told was best. And we hate ourselves for it, and as compensation we're going to spoil all your fun as well. The health and education services are going to pot because YOU PEOPLE prefer to spend your money on second cars and second nannies and Pimms tents at Glastonbury, and the organisers are compelled to put on Radio 2 mediocrities to keep you happy)

Tightly argued as this is, is it a) an accurate reflection of festival goers (hint: no) and b) what kind of socialism is this exactly because I though Marx was all for 'the withering away of the state and c) is it in fact entirely possible to enjoy something without subscribing to every one of its aspects, ie okay so Macca is lame and Franz Ferdinand are shit, but perhaps one can have more FUN at Glasto than watching TV, roaching a spliff, etc... and having fun is a political act, maaaaaan...

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!

Thanks for the first genuine laugh out loud moment of the day.

― My New Identity (kate), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, erm, second.

― My New Identity (kate), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Should festivals be banned? Absolutely not! Should festivals stay small, however.....

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Man, that quote is so off the money it needs a new special scale for itself.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:30 (twenty-one years ago)

It just strikes me as yet more proof that Marxists Hate Fun.

― My New Identity (kate), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I fully expect Marcello to be selling his entire record collection right now and donating the proceeds to the NHS, as well as a sizeable proportion of that famous £80k salary he's taking home from self-same crumbling health service.

There was no Pimms tent at Glasto. Sigh, if only. I would have felt so happy sipping away knowing that at that moment another child is dying in Africa.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

The V Festivals should, definitely.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

It's off the money to the extent that anyone claiming it is anywhere near it will surely result in Weimar Republic levels of inflation.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it *actually* a Marcello quote? Cause in that case I will refrain from further discussion of the political aspect.

I don't like festivals, I don't particularly enjoy either camping or large crowds, nor the music that they attract, but there are other more valid reasons to ban them (Glasto has to be kept at the length that it is because it is only 24 hours away from a major cholera epidemic every time it rains) than, tedious, pathetic reverse classism and banging on about socialism.

― My New Identity (kate), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:37 (twenty-one years ago)

[NB: I have actually worked for the NHS, and everyone in it is a SAINT obviously, and there is NO WASTAGE whatsoever and to suggest otherwise is a TORY PLOT and the managers are ENTIRELY COMPETENT and everynight I give myself TWENTY LASHES on my BACK because I earn almost TWICE the minimum wage]

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:37 (twenty-one years ago)

that's an absolutely extraordinary quote.

― toby (tsg20), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe we should ban Marcello. With fire.

― Michael Stuchbery (Mikey Bidness), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Pimms. It's a drink. Get over it.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I like small, local festivals. I have never had to queue for a chemical toilet at Charlbury or Truck.

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Less ad hominem attacks and more discussion of the quote and proposition, please. He's been quiet on ILX lately, and I don't want to jinx that, please!

― My New Identity (kate), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I really like Pimms and I earn £12k.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Wandering around Glasto, 1997 or so, I found a table/silver service restaurant tent. I told people, they thought I was halluc. but I heard mention of it and that it had started 'last year'....

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Which explains why I've not bought a bottle since university.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Is Marcello really earning 80K? That's outrageous! No-one should earn more than 30K. what on earth do they find to do with it all?

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:41 (twenty-one years ago)

'BUY LOTS OF OBSCURE JAZZ REKKIDS?'

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:45 (twenty-one years ago)

but glastonbury is curiously behind the times, caught in the 90s, oversubscribed?

somewhere along the line glastonbury did get caught in a groundhog day scenario?

also, i think things like festivals make better sense in some years than others, the last few years has seemed very urban, anti-rural, from grime through to electroclash, a new more non-urban scene might need to come through to make glastonbury et al feel up to date?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't deny any of that, Gareth. Still doesn't make what Marcello said any less ridiculous.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Gareth is right in the whole urban v rural thing, although I think part of Glasto's charm is that it doesn't TRY to be up to date - look at the Reading/Leeds festivals for what happens when you hoover up all the 'now' bands and make them sign contracts saying they won't play any other UK festival.

I can't imagine grime or electroclash in a big field, really. It just wouldn't work, in the same way that the Rapture didn't seem to fit. You need a club, a warehouse, or at the very least a packed and sweaty tent for that sort of music to make sense.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:54 (twenty-one years ago)

marcello's salary is, according to a comment made on my blog estimating how many times my salary he thought he probably earned, actually closer to £400k per year!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I dunno, I thought the Rapture worked very well in a big field. But yeah, grime and electroclash aren't outside genres in the way the early nineties dance stuff was.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:56 (twenty-one years ago)

well, thats my point really, that it needs a less citycentric music scene to make glastonbury seem more current.

festivals (and outdoor raves) reached a massive highpoint in the 90s, and, perhaps understandably, theres a certain reluctance to let that go, despite the fact that the world around has changed

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:57 (twenty-one years ago)

did anyone see boris johnsons comment that glastonbury was now as essential fixture on the society event list as henley

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 08:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm -- but grime has duch affinities w/ rave that I think one can overegg the urban/rural split. (Southern) England is so densely populated that I don't really think the urban/rural split obtains.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Grime's social affinities with rave are entirely those that come from its urban side (ie pirate radio culture) NOT the orbital and rave-in-a-field aspect.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

but i fucking hate festivals, find them horribly mediocre, especially glasto etc, the embodiment of received taste, targeting fund managers wanting to recapture their youth. with a couple of exceptions i'd rather watch telly. this is classic marcello polemic and waaaaaay over the top but there's a kernel of truth there.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

You mean 'south-east england', Enrique. You want to go to Cornwall, mate.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, having spent the late eighties and very early nineties in a small Sussex village, I can assure you that there was a very noticeable rural/urban split then and I see no reason for that to have changed.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing is that glastonbury really isn't about the music. i know that sounds incredibly tossy, but it's true. otherwise i'd be agreeing with all you haters.

― toby (tsg20), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

ricardo is spot-on. grime has nothing to do with the "communal" (always and only ever an illusion anyway) ecstasy vibe of dancing in a shitey spud field. it would fuck up your air force 1s too much for a start.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

all these people who say glasto isn't about the music discourages me from going even more. I can go camping any old time. At a fraction of the price too.

― MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

how is Glastonbury behind the times? rock music is as popular as ever and the festival's organisers reflect that in their choices. true the festival does not represent pop and urban style music and cutting edge electronic and dance music as well as other festivals but most people accept that as not strictly necessary (as they do with magazines such as NME). outside of popular music tho, Glastonbury festival's attributes are timeless and exist outside of zeitgeist/trend cycle really.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

oh good.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

glastonbury is for "fund managers wanting to recapture their youth"? ummm, no. lots of hippies, yes. maybe a couple of well-disguised fund managers, yes, but to generalise the festival in this way is incorrect.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

in any case there were a number of new dance and electronic acts there anyway from Mylo to Erol Alkan's DJ sets, plus the usual barrage of Jools-friendly jazz and roots music - and some Senegalese hip hop. Who gives a shit if there were no grime (or whatever) DJs really?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

because its stuck in 1997?

to say it is just the same and outside of zeitgeist cycle is ridiculuous, glastonbury 1985 vs glastonbury 1992?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Hrmph, I dunno Steve. Glasto certainly *felt* more zeitgeisty in 93, but then I was still an impressionable teenager and hardcore fit the feel of Glastonbury remarkably well.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:17 (twenty-one years ago)

how the fuck is it stuck in 1997? there were a huge range of artists performing there who have emerged since 1997. who do you think the headline acts should've been?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:17 (twenty-one years ago)

M Mayer and Felix in the Dance Tent would've been nice!

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think Glasto was especially up-to-date with rock music this year though, but that's partly as I mentioned upthread because of other festivals signing up all the really big bands with the big money that Eavis really doesn't pay out.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

for the record, glastonbury is definitely about music - the point is that you can do other stuff there if you want to, unlike other festivals. or you could just be like the guys we camped with who just chilled out by their campsite the whole time and only really ventured out to see squarepusher. since when is being able to do/see/hear what you want 'behind the times'?

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:19 (twenty-one years ago)

As Peel said last night Glasto could have done with a "Weird Bands tent", then he played the superb: Mastodon as an example.

meanwhile Glasto had the plodding contrived singalong soft indie of Snow Patrol, and f-ing retro mods The Ordinary Boys joined by Jupit-arse on stage.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

my point re zeitgeist/trend cycles is that Glastonbury trades on an ethos supposedly developed in the late 60s that has become so fundamental wrt to pursuit of hedonism in certain divisions of society that it's effectively now a constant i.e. getting high, drunk and watching music and all kinds of other weird shit is perenially viewed by a vast number of people as a great great thing to do. something like that cannot ever be unfashionable or 'behind the times' as such.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

well, until it is, obviously.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

and if you're saying the music was behind the times...well we could list all the bands who performed along with the style of music they play and what year they formed if you like...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

i dont think they should have been anyone. i'm not saying they got the line up wrong, im not saying they should have had lots of grime. but, what i am saying is, and perhaps this is now sort of in agreement with you, that it has become out of time, not of its time.

and that the zeitgeist for quite a while now, has been citycentric.

also, ironically, reading festival etc, have moved on, and are of the 00s now, they have left the 90s behind, for better or worse

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

IT WAS GREAT IN '97 ANYWAY. But yeah okay grime doesn't have the attributes you call 'rural', but the raves were taking place in the Essex countryside, they weren't rural in the Carmody sense, and to my mind the split is partly chimerical. That said I went to Glasto six months ago and it was more grime than you can imagine, even before I arrived.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

well, until it is, obviously.

would that ever happen? people have always liked congregating in large amounts in open spaces to indulge in entertaining pursuits.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

also, the 90s were fuelled by the rave explosion, which, in its way, was a reinforcement, or re-imagining of 60s hedonism, but proletarianised, for the masses, this time. and sharing its ruralist utopian characteristics.

this sits at odds with 2004

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

The zeitgeist is citycentric ONLY IF YOU LIVE IN A FUCKIN CITY, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't know if i agree Glastonbury is not of it's time right now. how do you define what is of it's time and what isn't? if you're saying Glastonbury is offering nothing new now that it didn't seven years ago then perhaps that is true, but should it be? and if so, what exactly CAN it offer now that it couldn't then?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:25 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, it was more the 'hedonistic' angle. Would it ever become unfashionable? Well, it was quite fash in the sixties to the early sventies. Punk made it unfash. Yeah, it still happened, but it was fairly unfash. Then it came back...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:25 (twenty-one years ago)

(Just lost a massive post on this, will precis).

The ijnteresting thing about Glastonbury in particular is how it tries to juggle a political sensibility (development, green issues, trade unionism - many of which are in themselves uneasy bedfellows) with the kind of professionalism such an event requires for safety reasons. Does this make the event primarily hypocritical, or even worthless? Of course not. Instead the interesting suggestion is that at least a trip to Glastonbury allows us to reset the prevailing political atmosphere of exclusivity. We lock ourselves in our homes, we are generally not willing to engage in people outside our social experience and yet camping in a field with 100,000 others forces us, in however minor a way, to engage with others. I think people are fooling themselves if they think Glastonbury is some kind of class tourism.

And of course there will be a Zeitgeist element, this year had very safe headliners, but still a number of interesting acts dotted around the place and if you never thought you would stumble on Senegalese Dancehall then you might have been proved wrong. Best Glastonbury ever? Maybe not, but I had a fucking good time. But then I did not go last year and convinced myself it would be miserable.

Glastonbury is establishment, it is after all well established. New stuff is starting all the time. Do the new if you want the new. But don't diss the old just for being old, unless you really believe that nothing good can come out of anything established.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

You do know that there was DJ Martian-centric music all over the place at Glasto? Saturday night in the Glade especially (which was totally 1997 now you come to mention it). What's on the main stages or shown on BBC2 is a bit of red herring when it comes to the sheer breadth of stuff on offer.

The Chemical Brothers, Orbital and Oasis would all have been headlining stages at festivals in 1997. A more "now" festival would have The Strokes and friends, or Slipknot or someone, headlining and not Miss Kittin and Dizzee whatever anyone says. It might have The Streets and Basement Jaxx though.

I think this dovetails in with the conversation Toby, RickyT and I had about how surprised we were that Kings of Leon were big enough to be 2nd on the bill. I think it was decided we all lived in this ILX-inspired bubble world where the Wiley album is the biggest release of the year despite hardly anyone having heard it in the real world.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Curious question: Anyone know how much rave music of '90-'93 made an impact at Glastonbury then if at all? (I'm guessing not at all) But I know the likes of The Orb did play.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Cripes, I'd have to dig up some old reviews about those years from my mouldering archive. I remember Tom Jones headlined one night in 92, so who needs rave? ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely all the rave was in the tents that the organisers were driving around trying to shut down? The tents that these days are legitimised and have Erol Alkan and FC Kahuna and people playing in them.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

ILX is totally a fucking bubble.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

There wasn't much stuff played on the three or four official stages, no, but there was a heck of a lot of rave played on all the unofficial systems scattered in and around the festival in 93.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I do agree the line-up seemed to be locked in '97 in many ways but i think the fault there lies with the organisers and is something easily remedied. but then, would there really be a difference? isn't the realm of pop music kinda locked in stasis now anyway? maybe Glasto's remit will (be forced to) focus even more on nostalgia and this may be fitting/logical.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe Bananas rave and getting shot stall for example.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I reckon unofficially rave would have made an impact in'93.
the 90s were fuelled by the rave explosion, which, in its way, was a reinforcement, or re-imagining of 60s hedonism, but proletarianised, for the masses, this time. and sharing its ruralist utopian characteristics.
But what's 'rural' about rave, except for its immediate physical locality, which was a matter of convenience? And what would '60s hedonism' be? I dunno, these antinomies are a bit chunky for the likes of me.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Ruralist = finding an area of outstanding natural beauty and inviting thousands of people over to really fuck it up.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

60s hedonism = lady if you have to ask

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:36 (twenty-one years ago)

The zeitgeist is citycentric ONLY IF YOU LIVE IN A FUCKIN CITY, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

do you really think so? to me, the 90s were characterized by a ruralutopian-hedonism, with many cues from late 60s. the 'city' played less of a role i think. to me, the 00s, perhaps because of the increased role of hip hop, have seen a reduced role for rural romanticism?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:37 (twenty-one years ago)

WHERE IS THIS PIMMS TENT?!??!?!?!

i did spend half of the NHS's budget on the Perrys though.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

oh Perry is SOOOOOOO 1997...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, actually LOTS of the people making the records were from outside the big cities. There was a significant rave culture in and around the rural south east from 90-94, which was tied in with (and a logical progression on from) the old drop out hippy->traveller constituency, who had a surprisingly large presence in my bit of Sussex.

Also, on a basic sonic level, it was produced to sound good in the open air!

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

to me, the 00s, perhaps because of the increased role of hip hop, have seen a reduced role for rural romanticism?

i would agree but i'm not sure Glastonbury should reflect this change. Reading IS practically an urban festival (buildings in the distance etc.) whereas Glasto could not be more rural.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:40 (twenty-one years ago)

to me, the 90s were characterized by a ruralutopian-hedonism

well, not to me! at all! i just don't count essex as rural, any of it, just because there are fields... glastonbury is more rural, but (and i have friends in w sussex, and i spend a lot of time there) the SE (thx nick) is just not rural in the totalizing way people make out. rave was surely closer to detroit techno than anything 60s-hippy. It's something unreal-real-it's something-un-real-real-real...

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Who wants Glastonbury to contemporary really though? I mean, part of the fun of the thing is that you can go and see Dave Clarke or The Rapture or James Brown or My Morning Jacket or Erol or the English National Opera or Basement Jaxx over the course of one weekend. The idea that its this kind of huge eclectic mix of old and new, unselfconsciously picked, it what appeals to me.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

From where I was standing in the early 90s (from the outside looking in), rave struck me as being totally 60s hippy.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

the music the comes from sleepy villages will NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS be as good as the music from cities, but it doesn't mean that people living in sleepy villages can't enjoy the stuff coming out oif cities, just that it might be *slightly* less relevan t to their lives. i don't want to see wiley, dizzee, kano, demon, d-double-e et al transplanted to the middle of a field in the west country, either. what's the fuck would the point be?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

rave was surely closer to detroit techno than anything 60s-hippy

rave was drug/hedonism soundtrack of early 90s, hence the 60s parallel

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

rave, in the uk, was suburban-proletarian, with rural utopian leanings, ie, it was an urban and suburban music, but ruffneck utopian, summer of love, romanticising the outdoors, huge outdoor raves from 88 onwards, people leaving the city to go out in the country

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

im not saying there should have been grime at glastonbury.

im saying there couldnt be grime at glastonbury

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

A lotmof ppl hate on the ENO, but as a veteran of 97-98 playing music most familiar from 'Apocalypse Now' was entirely appropriate, it was more or less my inner soundtrack anyway. Question: is Bayreuth urban or rural?

Dave my point is THERE ARE NO SLEEPY VILLAGES, WE ALL LIVE IN A FUCKING CASH ECONOMY AND HAVE FOR 400 YEARS, THE VILLAGERS HAVE TO BUY THEIR FOOD IN THE SAME SUPERMARKETS AS US, NOT DIRECT FROM THE FARMER OR ANY SHIT LIKE THAT.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing is that glastonbury really isn't about the music. i know that sounds incredibly tossy, but it's true

toby otm. Glasto is about THE JUGGLING! Omg Haggis McLeod and Charlie Dancey's hat routine!!! And BIKE BOY! he juggled a knife a chainsaw and an apple standing on the handlebars of a bike that is balanced on a 12 foot pole that is held up on ropes pulled by members of the audience!!!!! it's not about bloody oasis singing when no one cares or some DJ dude presses the play button in the dance tent.

omg HAGGIS MCLEOD

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:50 (twenty-one years ago)

to me, the 90s were characterized by a ruralutopian-hedonism

only for certain people. the thing is that festivals are built on this idea of a kind of prelapsarian pastoral utopianism, but it is and always was a bullshit hippy illusion/construct.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:50 (twenty-one years ago)

of course there are sleepy villages - some of my best friends live in them

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

You can't say "the 90s were characterized by a ruralutopian-hedonism" anymore than you can say "Welsh people are good at singing"; they're only characterised by ruralutopian-hedonism for YOU and people who agree with you. You can't define periods of history like that - the 90s in the UK were about 60 million people doing different things to each other each day and every day. The generalisation about the 90s could easily be 89-91=Manchester, 92-94=Bristol, 95-98=London, 99=fuck knows, as far as the topography of 'what is current' moves, but that's a crock - people in Manchester didn't just stop making records cos focus was on Bristol, and people in rural areas NEVER stopped making records just cos focus was ALWAYS on cities.

But then again I think the whole idea of a 'zeitgesit' is revisionist-historical-suppressive; 'cultural history' in the UK is written and archived and transmuted to the future by 200 people all living in London who happen to shout loudest, and fucks to everyone else.

X-posts GALORE (ENRQ's response to ruralutopiua being first).

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Sleepy village = everyone's gone to work in the city...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

but it is and always was a bullshit hippy illusion/construct

undisputed. perhaps we could argue it that, the 90s were characterized by bullshit hippy illusion/construct then? and that that illusion is no longer present, or defining

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:52 (twenty-one years ago)

but why not? the festivals are as popular as ever it seems

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

well, nick, i guess it depends.

do you think rave music was the defining force of the 90s?

if so, do you agree that raves were focussed away from cities, that they were working class suburban/provincial? that they were ruffneck positivist, blackmarket utopian?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Sleepy vilages exist. Once more the UK is ONLY the SE.

Dave I dispute the idea that rural-made music can never be as good as urban-made music, but then again I would and I probably actually agree with you anyway on a practical POV.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Gareth I don't think there IS a defining force of the 90s AT ALL - that's my point.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

do you think rave music was the defining force of the 90s?

i don't - i don't think the 90s had any defining force, perhaps more than any other post-WW2 decade

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing is that festivals are built on this idea of a kind of prelapsarian pastoral utopianism, but it is and always was a bullshit hippy illusion/construct.

Dave, have you actually been to one? Festivals are an experience in themselves, and very few ppl actually believe this. Pre-lapsarian != doing loadsa drugs and fucking. I mean this is Guardian thinkpiece stuff: GO TO A FESTIVAL and point to the illusions (which, of course don't exist in the cities OH NO).

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

The economist was whinging about how you can't break into GLasonbury any more and how the British counterculture is dead. When The Economist says it it must be true.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i think it only ever really worked for a few people anyway, plus the fact that a lot of big raves were held in the country was not primarily for reasons of rural utopianism, but because it was easier to not get caught in this environment than it was in the city - less coppers, slower response times, more chance to get away with it. this utilitarian, practical idea coupled with ecstasy effect made some people yearn for a new pastoral idyll, "rave new world" of sunshine, happiness, open space and fluffy critters to stroke but mostly it was bollocks.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:58 (twenty-one years ago)

it wasn't even the defining force for ME tho of course it figured hugely - if there was a pie chart to represent this it would account for maybe 38% with a few other similar sized chunks tho perhaps none as big or bigger (that doesn't make it a DEFINING force tho).

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:58 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry but haha

..fluffy critters to stroke but mostly it was bollocks.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 09:59 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post: no enrq i never leave the house and haven't since i was 16.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:00 (twenty-one years ago)

stevem in crap at pie charts shocker. "A few other chunks the same size" 38%!!!

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I can say that having not paid to get into Glastonbury (by jumping over the fence) and having paid to get in i don't feel there is a real difference in my experience (and i didn't really notice i was £100 poorer), tho it was nice to have less people there this time compared to '99 mentalism of something like 200,000 people shuffling around (tho that was fun also and '99 remains my personal favourite Glastonbury i guess).

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:01 (twenty-one years ago)

rave new world" of sunshine, happiness, open space and fluffy critters to stroke but mostly it was bollocks

every posse and crew the future is before your eyes, we'll live as one family. whether it is true is one thing, but whether people believed it is another.

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

anyway, re my point that the idea of "utopian ruralism" is merely mythologised practical necessity, i am right. anyone disagree?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Its the gatekeeper argument all over again, isn't it? Gareth and others have claimed in the past that as a result of filesharing etc, gatekeepers have become redundant because the wall has been demolished. This thread proves that to be nonsense, because Glasto proved how much gatekeeper unfriendly music, like say King of Leon or whoever, is a) miles up the bill, b) very popular and c) taking the gatekeepers by surprise, despite being largely d) rubbish.

Did the rural-outdoor aspect of rave essentially die off post-1994 or therabouts, the focus turning inside, to urban space, warehouses, superclubs?

Also, 90s revisionism will remember the decade being characterised as much by Take That, the Spice Girls and Britpop as anything that came out of rave, possibly correctly so.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:03 (twenty-one years ago)

every posse and crew the future is before your eyes, we'll live as one family.

that was the drugs talking.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:04 (twenty-one years ago)

yes i disagree. i think it was conducive to the country, in the same way the 60s was. rezerection, fantasia, moondance, galactica, the way the working class intersected with dropout hippy convoy culture, castlemorton, ripon etc, it was all about escape to the country

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

of course it was the drugs talking. but, the drugs dont say that anymopre, do they?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Taking sides - paying £100 to get in vs having £100 worth of stuff nicked by scallies.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, 90s revisionism will remember the decade being characterised as much by Take That, the Spice Girls and Britpop as anything that came out of rave, possibly correctly so.

don't forget Haggis McLeod!!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

whatever makes things be said, they were still said, and believed

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:07 (twenty-one years ago)

everyone soon got pissed off with the dropout hippy convoy lot, though and they factionalised themselves pretty well after a while.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd argue 93, but yea, the emergence of superclubs in 94, and of the shift from hardcore to jungle, were both urbanizations of rave culture, partly necessitized by cjb etc, and partly due to the collapse of rave/hardcore, the most outdoor friendly subset of dance culture

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:08 (twenty-one years ago)

And here's me thinking it was about having fun. There's more badly bandied isms going on here than a fucking meeting of the SWP. Talk about harshing a buzz by over fucking intellectualising it to the point where what its about (the music, n'est-ce-pas) becomes not the pint (it's from the city, no it's from the fields, no it's from drugs etc).

For the record - why is Macca lame? I (and several 10s of thousands of others enjoyed it. That's not lame. I think making people, however trite it may seem, is probably the best we can achieve short of genocidal revolution).

It's exactly this kind of uber-manichean cricism which makes me very very glad the entire world of music kind of passed me by. I actually bought the NME today to read the reviews of the bands I'd seen, and those of the bands I hadn't. I was starting to think I should give music a go, but the tribes of music and their ferocious desire to taxonomise _everything_ really make me not be arsed really.

massive x-post.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:09 (twenty-one years ago)

its also worth noting that most of the big rave clubs, pre the formalized superclub era, were NOT in large cities, osset, doncaster, plymouth, warrington, stoke, burnley, coventry to thread

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:10 (twenty-one years ago)

The question about people breaking in to Glasto not happening proving the counter culture is dead is absolute bollocks anyway. It is no longer easy to break in to Glastonbury, does not mean people are not doing (and are keeping it quiet).

How are loads of people just walking in through a toppled fence any more counter culture than people walking in with a ticket - except they have paid.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

but, the social aspects of music and culture, you don't find this interesting dave?

for the record, just because i think xyz about whatever, does not stop me from enjoying whatever. if i had gone to glastonbury this year, i would have got totally fucked and had a great time, and wouldnt have cared about any of this. i would still think those thought though, whether they matter or not is another question

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't believe anyone would seriously call rave culture 'rural'. Wtf, what am I missing? Just listen to it! I mean there's a split between actual physical location and the cultural overtones here is there not? Wasn't the whole thing abt Londoners crusing the M25 (not exactly deepest darkest Peru) to find the convoys?

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The idea that Glastonbury is countercultural is incorrect though - Eavis is a farmer, he was a Labour party candidate, he is a Christian. You can read about the majority of the people playing in any magazine, and this has been the case since 1990 at least as far as I can remember. It is run as a legitimised event - if someone with vast acres of land wants to let all of us in for free and have loads of bands and DJs paying than brilliant, but is that still likely to happen in this day and age?

Also until we've pinned down what this notion of 'counterculture' is in 2004 its a bit silly to go on talking about it.

Also Enrique, you are missing out on the crucial bit - as well as the music and the physical location there were the people. Who were they? Why were they doing what they were doing? What did they believe, look like, dress like?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

but fields do exist in Berkshire/ Surrey/ Kent that can be exited from the M25

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:18 (twenty-one years ago)

glastonbury is about as countercultural as fucking starbucks - both play a bit of world music.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Boyler - I can sympathise with what you're saying to a point but isn't that a bit like saying that football is ONLY about the actual moment of 22 men kicking a ball around a pitch for 90 mins, and that all the rest of the stuff, the camaraderie, the rivalries, the songs, the differing character and social makeup etc, is all an irrelevance? You can't divorce it from its context like that.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave, just out of interest, have you ever been to Glastonbury?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Good question Matt, I dunno (for me, rave culture meant SL2, The Prodigy, an' that, being a 12 year old pop fan -- and they weren't and aren't very rural, and I imagine the ravers were pretty suburban (SE England is ALL suburbs -- drive through France and you'll see what I mean) in the South, they had wheels, and driving to the local airstrip takes no time from Colchester/Saffron Walden).

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:21 (twenty-one years ago)

"the differing character and social makeup of sets of fans", is what I meant to say.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:22 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post: of course i have and i hated it. too many hippies and students.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i've actually been more than once - a couple of times i was paid to go and i would have had to have been.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

the big chill is the festival i would most like to bomb, though.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave, do you hate fun?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, they are of interest, but like the Cultural Studies textbooks I used to read, there's a set of shared assumptions and languages that are required to participate in fully, and not having those assumptions or that language, it just all seems a lot of picking over not much really.

The most interesting thing I'm seeing here is the fact that something being fun and enjoyable seems to be way down the list of acceptable criteria for liking something. But then I'm turning into a liberal anyway.

Xpost - Matt - I take the point, but whilst there's a culture built on top of the basic cultural product, you don't get people ceasing to support teams because they've gone and fucking won something, the sell out bunch of cunts etc. It's a really facile (by comparison to music) kind of subculture - we like a) watching football and especially like b) watching [insert team]. It's that simple. The debates as such are about what the team did - imagine messageboards spending 6 days debating whether the vocal level was too high and what might have happened had it been down one notch. I'd find that tedious as hell (and do, TBH).

In summary then - I can't divorce it from the context, but it appears eminently possible to enjoy the product without the baggage (ie, I could stand on my own, watch, then leave). I think football is easier for the non-assimilated to get into. How does one get into new music? You have to find it, or be shown it - both involve a proactivity that I suspect in music anyway, requries engagement with the discourses above.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:28 (twenty-one years ago)

SuperSonic
http://www.capsule.org.uk/super/super_04.htm

is this Britain's most cutting edge electronic music festival this summer?

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The Big Chill is the logical extension of one half of rave culture though, when you take out all the urban elements, yer drum and bass and garage and so forth, and expand the whole hippy side of things, age the participants by ten years and there you go. Grime is the lates point in the other path in the fork.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

glastonbury is about as countercultural as fucking starbucks - both play a bit of world music.

glastonbury is about as about as countercultural as fucking starbucks as fucking starbucks is about as countercultural as going to church - both not very similar in their counterculturality

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know who's playing the Big Chill incidentally - am I right in thinking its all System 7 and The Egg and Eat Static and that sort of stuff?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Gareth have you been to Glastonbury or other festivals (just out of interest)? i can't remember if you said before.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

you don't get people ceasing to support teams because they've gone and fucking won something, the sell out bunch of cunts etc

on the other hand, mark c never started hating B+S since they signed to Rough Trade.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Big Chill = Mr Scruff and some other rep from labels like Ninja alongside the usual crusty rave, i expect

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

or moved house

xpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Big Chill - Line Up
http://www.bigchill.net/story.html?id=791

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

It is impossible to be countercultural in late-capitalism.

xpost - I see what you're doing Ken, and it won't work, you notty man.

― Frederic B (by way of Dave Zizek) (daveb), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Gareth was getting the MDMA rushes and fucking hot electroclash girls and dancing to UR back in 1993 and 1994, and if he wasn't he needed us to go down and show him how it was done.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

[long posting removed by request]

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)

DJ MArtian that was not really necessary

Matt by back in 1993 you mean LAST WEEK

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I was paraphrasing ;)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Having just read all this thread Im glad Australian festivals are a) shorter and b) just about seeing a bunch of bands and getting sunburnt and fucked up and having fun and drinking beer.

Maybe the mud messes with English minds.

― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:42 (twenty-one years ago)

hey don't tarnish us all with the same kangaroo-hair brush missy! ;)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, you are right stevem - anyone with Moderator rights - Zapp that post please !

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

ive been to festivals 10 times, and i had a great time at them all. having a great time, or not, doesnt change my opinions regarding sociocultural context.

martian, please desist from posts which are just a long listing. also, stop calling french people frogs.

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Having just read all this thread Im glad Australian festivals are a) shorter and b) just about seeing a bunch of bands and getting sunburnt and fucked up and having fun and drinking beer.

phew, rocknroll, eh kids? /recidivist nme reader

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

long listings of insults to fellow eu nations are obviously okay, though, martian

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:49 (twenty-one years ago)

i was thinking about going to the big chill. save your bombs for something more deserving, please.

glastonbury = starbucks ethos? jesus. ok, so lots of people know both as 'brand names' of sorts and know what they represent, but contrasting the two in that way is ridiculous. stelfox you probably think i'm some sort of wacky hippie which is far from the truth. just because something has become big, recognized, and professionalised doesn't necesarrily mean that its relevance has been compromised. it's the old "band X were great back in the day, but now that they sell a million albums they are crap" line of thinking, which we all know is a car wreck of a discussion (see anything on ILM)

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Having just read all this thread Im glad Australian festivals are a) shorter and b) just about seeing a bunch of bands and getting sunburnt and fucked up and having fun and drinking beer.
Maybe the mud messes with English minds.

Tracey, really it's the same here too for most people ;) Except Glasto also has JUGGLING.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve - hahah sorry, I wanted to gloat, or something I dunno. Hell at least you dont have to put up with Jet and the Vines at your fests :(

FWIW Id love to have been to a Glasto. Just once.

― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 10:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Gareth how old are you, just out of interest?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 11:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Underworld at the Melbourne 98 BDO - BEST GIG EVAR

― Michael Stuchbery (Mikey Bidness), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 11:23 (twenty-one years ago)

...and for that reason alone, gentle friends, we must not ban festivals. We must allow them to flourish so that one day some other 18 year old can take a pissweaks pill and pogo to the jackhammerings of some techno heroes.

― Michael Stuchbery (Mikey Bidness), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 11:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I went to the Big Chill two years ago. It was in many ways utterly vile, and the only festival to which I have ever been that Marcello's rant might have fitted.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Honest question: what's wrong with the Big Chill exactly? I have friends that love it, and are going again this year and want me to go. They're not crusty hippies, nor are they sketched-out post-raver types. They're just people who like that music and want to see it in a resonable environment. I should note that they (and I) are over-30s, and if by vile you mean it was fill of 'old people', then so be it - it sounds fine to me.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Re Big Chill. Well, if the possibility that what Marcello wrote about Glasto might actually apply to it isn't explanation enough: shit music + unfriendly, snobby people = a bad time had. Full of me-culture new age professionals. The sort of jerk that thinks their career as an exploitative merchant banker is OK cos they're a buddhist. Every third arsehole HAD driven there in an SUV.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, to be fair, I didn't have *that* bad a time there, but that was entirely to do with the two people I went with.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave Stelfox staggeringly OTM on this thread.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, a matter of taste then. There's a fair amount of music in that Big Chill line-up that I wouldn't mind seeing. My friends aren't bankers, don't drive SUVs, and aren't buddists, but you'd probably hate them anyway.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark do you hate fun too?

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

have you been to glastonbury, mark?

― toby (tsg20), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:25 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread is a fun balance between two ILX archetypes: charlton's genteel, polite, carmody-style theorising and stelfox's spit-spraying rants.

― dave amos, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, sorry dave, that was uncalled for

― dave amos, Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, I am more sure than god that at this stage of my life I would HATE Glastonbury. I haven't been to a festival in a field since 1993 and even 19 year old me found it pretty rubbish.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

which festivals have you been to gareth (just out of curiosity)?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

the thing about the Big Chill is THEY HAVE PEACOCKS ROAMING THE GROUNDS. how fuckin aristocracy can you get maaaan?

― kitten (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

ok then, so the big chill is some sort of posh affair for yuppies, then? i guess since i'm a 30-something business professional, i should just give in and buy a SUV since there's no hope for me and i'm ultimately a parasite on society. hooray! i'm liking the sound of this big chill thing more and more...

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

do you agree that raves were focussed away from cities, that they were working class suburban/provincial? that they were ruffneck positivist, blackmarket utopian? charltonlido

notwithstanding the wtf use of 'positivist' (some lind of pun on 'popper'?) -- i don't at all think they were focussed away from cities in the sense you mean, ie the 'back to nature' element, present on the covers of 1000 bootleg tapes, was minoritarian: as Dave says, raves were held in the country for pragmatic reasons. the culture-wars argument is based on a totally undialectical idea of what the country is like, actually affirming the rightist rural/urban split.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

are you agreeing with me there? i am totally fucking lost now.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

(Is this where I wheel out the reason poppers are called poppers is after Karl Popper?)

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

do you see it works on so many levels? dave -- i am agreeing with some things you said, not with others! i know that isn't very 'ilx' but hey wtf

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

(I know the discussion has moved on quite a bit, but I just read the k-punk thing and the line 'nuke 'em' type talk on it is more stupid than anything marcello- who mostly sticks with the line up and an anti-macca rant, much of which is based on his uncut interview- wrote, and the 'I'm being punk here' justification he uses is even more retarded)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

MC also said we needed a new punk in which we should all cut our hair and other wild and crazy shit. There's this band he should check out
-- The Strokes. They're a bit edgy I guess but boy is their hair neat! They'd never play no hippy festival, that's for skippy.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

the last thing the world needs is a new punk. the ver idea of punk needs to be destroyed.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

well I'm not sure whether he did, this is another line from his piece:

"8. Time for a new punk, then. Even - especially - the Grauniad said so in their editorial yesterday. One which will doubtless end up as beer-sodden and smelly a wreck as the first one."

He's in two minds about it, bcz he knows how it will all end up.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

well, i'm not saying he did, but the guardian line is worth criticising. the constant harking back to punk is massively counterproductive. the days of MASSIVE cultural shifts are pretty much over as far as i can see. now it's easier for kids to make/get music/scenes that's their own has put paid to things like that. now e'lll just have micro-scenes and niche genres and if you can't be bothered to look for exciting stuff, then you should shut up, stop moaning and content yrself with pop (which is pretty good right now) and the old stuff that meets yr needs.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Is he in two minds about expropriating the kulaks (or whatever lunatic faux-leftism his 'all leisure is exploitation' is)?

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave otm but very earnest! Massive cultural shifts happen in film, so why not music?

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:31 (twenty-one years ago)

there's less need

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

there's aso probably a generation of kids 15 years younger than me saying "when are all those old cunts going to stop crapping on about acid house and hardcore?" (today is a swearing day for me, btw, in case anyone had not noticed).

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Massive cultural shifts happen in film, so why not music?

Because the enjoyment of music is fundamentally societal in nature, far more so than film? A massive cultural shift in music is also a massive shift in fashion, going out, dancing, drug use to an extent and even the sort of books and films people will take an interest in.

If anything there's MORE need for massive cultural shifts, although I think all cultural shifts are tribal and not universal, even punk/rave/psychedelia/whatever's in the pop history books these days.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:36 (twenty-one years ago)

[grime prolly involves comparable number of ppl that '76-'77 punk did]

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Grime is weird because its a post-filesharing genre - Soulseek and so forth have eroded the societal side of things to an extent - the relationship between artist and audience is different now, from Ewing 'we're all dilletantes now' to Carmody 'everything is mobile, we can listen to grime in Dorset' to Petridis going on about how many grime fans are geeky bloggers etc. And I'm sure Dave has said a few words about this one as well ;)

One of the good things about festivals is that you do get that societal feeling back, like the Glasto site is some massive town-community even if everyone is into different things.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

'One of the good things about festivals is that you do get that societal feeling back'

for just the one weekend a year.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Two, for some of us ;)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

That was the point I was trying to make above. One weekend of societal feeling is nowhere near enough, but its better than nothing.

― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Glasto is naicer now (And that's a good thing) -- I didn't feel very societal when I got my tent slashed in '98. Which is to say, I don't think it's very rural-utopian, but an experience in itself, a crazy one mashing up of urban foodstyles and musics with Somme-core living conditions.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

what does "grime" mean? It sounds unpleasant.

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

barry, its what the kids are up to these days.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course it isn't rural utopian! If you want to commune with nature go out and do it on your own or with a couple of other people and appreciate it properly rather than trampling all over it and generally making a complete mess of it that will take months to put right.

If you want to get fucked in the open air and listen to loud music and dance about though, its great.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Trampling over it along with thousands of other people, I mean.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

exactly! i think a lot of the hataz but into the idea that glasto is hippy-dippy-rural-conservative, and it isn't.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

hmmmm, yeah i have written stuff abt grime and p2p and i agree to a point, matt. all those views are valid but don't alter my basic contention that filesharing doesn't really do anything to give a scene momentum or weight and i still think grime is v regionalist. however, so is dancehall and no one's goona tell me that i can't like that. i do recognize that it's less relevant to my life than yr average kingstonian, though. this is acrtually turning into a really good thread, btw. big up yer chests, all crew.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, I think giving people a chance to exist outside the scene is great - I like the idea that when I'm middle aged and fat and wearing a suit all day that I'll be able to hear what black teenagers in Bow are listening to, because face it by then its not a scene that will have me even if I want to be part of it.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

my local TV station, which is hilariously early-Alan Partridge, show music vids from 10pm-midnight sunday-friday ('passion tv:oxford's sexiest dance and rnb'), with scrolling txts/requests from the viewers. 'fix up look sharp' has been a fixture for almost 12 months now, practically every night; i mean it got to, what, number 26?, but there is obviously something about it that these totally non-rockist fans out in the thames valley 'countryside' (it's not very countrysidey) fix on to.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't understand this thread at all.

― the kenfox (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

massive cultural changes will not happen:

news in today:
The Red Hot Chilli Peppers hit Californication has been voted the best album of the last 10 years.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30500-13144960,00.html

= Britain a nation of mostly morons when it comes to music !

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

or = the people in britain moronic enough to vote in something stupid like this are mostly morons when it comes to music

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

That's interesting though, cos it wasn't a mega-hit at the time at all.

― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

it's probably been on heavy rotation on Virgin !

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i love heavy rotations on virgin.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Ken do you have Prince's Dirty Mind ? ;-)

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

i have ken's dirty prints

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

you still haven't washed your hair since glasto?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 30 June 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

what a dum thread

― discus, Thursday, 12 January 2006 15:16 (twenty years ago)

probably one of the dumbest threads to be revived all day.

― D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Thursday, 12 January 2006 15:19 (twenty years ago)

four years pass...

nrq ardently reading k-punk

good times

― Nedrag "Neđa" Mijatović (nakhchivan), Friday, 31 December 2010 06:31 (fifteen years ago)

five months pass...

I would argue this one should be banned. HT to Whiney:

http://www.electricforestfestival.com/lineup/artists

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 6 June 2011 21:45 (fifteen years ago)

Come on Ned, where else are you going to get to see Shpongle presents the Spongletron Experience, the Pimps of Joytime, and Rubblebucket all in one weekend for only $239.50?

― unmetalled world (wk), Monday, 6 June 2011 22:32 (fifteen years ago)

REO Speedwagon, you're better than this.

― tylerw, Monday, 6 June 2011 22:34 (fifteen years ago)

Some of those names are great! Two Fresh! (Are they anything like Funky See Funky Do?) The MacPodz! REO Speedwagon! (Actually the most interesting band in the line-up!)

This is a The Onion wind-up, isn't it? Isn't it??

― henry s, Monday, 6 June 2011 22:35 (fifteen years ago)

It seems not.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 7 June 2011 01:02 (fifteen years ago)

It's almost a chore to find a not-completely-stupid name in that lineup. I was going to post more but, really, just... all of them.

― unmetalled world (wk), Tuesday, 7 June 2011 02:47 (fifteen years ago)

Trying to control the urge to punch my monitor in the hopes that the punch will translate directly to Pretty Lights guy's face.

― the fey bloggers are onto the zagat tweets (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 7 June 2011 04:15 (fifteen years ago)

Ya know, I'd probably have a good time at that festival. But I'm a hippy and I'd like to see what Skrillex does. Also, I had no idea that The New Deal were still a going concern. Ticket price is WTF thought.

― everything, Tuesday, 7 June 2011 04:35 (fifteen years ago)

My local hippyfest: http://www.shambhalamusicfestival.com/2011-artists/

Actually a much, much stronger line-up despite a few similarities like Bonobo doing a DJ set, Ursulla 1000 instead of Tiesto, Doctor P and DJ Fresh as well as Skrillex.

Plus these chicks: "Bitchin'"
http://www.shambhalamusicfestival.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/29893_10150222731955457_839610456_13000234_1528084_n-280x230.jpg

― everything, Tuesday, 7 June 2011 04:50 (fifteen years ago)

Feels like Glastonbury's dance lineup has improved immeasurably since this thread was started - having a load more venues and rave tents has probably helped, so you're not stuck with Fatboy Slim + Carl Cox on Saturday night.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 7 June 2011 10:44 (fifteen years ago)

I SMELL A SITCOM

― aka best bum of the o_O's (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 7 June 2011 11:27 (fifteen years ago)

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