Loaded: best VU album, rite guys?

seriously though, let's face it.

They're all the best, imo

if i could keep Sister Ray i would pretty happily say goodbye to WL/WH

as long as we're agreed that the first one is the worst, because of that bloody awful nico "singing"...

this is some kind of bizarro thread meant to piss me off

Whiney questioned me about this same opinion back in the day and on a different board none-the-less.

not sure if i still feel the same way but this album is up there.

Sister Ray is the worst thing on WL/WH.

Speaking of contrarian opinions. Honest opinion though.

*sucks on ding-dong*

Loaded would be the worst one if it weren't for Squeeze

White Light > 3rd one > 1st one > Loaded

live ones and later one don't count there's just those 4 imo

loaded with filler

"dudes you guys gotta hear this band, they're gonna change music as we know it"
(puts on 'lonesome cowboy bill')

worst day of my life was the 3rd time I went to jail. 2nd worst day was when I heard the Loaded version of "Sweet Jane"

Aero got the order right up thread. Loaded is by far the worst of the canonical 4.

it's not the best but it's the one i listen to the most.

yule rulez!

oh hell, i dunno. there is no correct order. they're all both brilliant and kind of irritating, but for different reasons. each one has songs i love and songs i very nearly hate. vu & nico has "venus in furs", "all tomorrow's parties" and "heroin", so it obviously can't be the worst. WLWH has the title song, "here she comes now" and motherfucking "sister ray", so it can't be the worse. self-titled has blankety-blank, and so on. loaded gets written off cuz it's too slick, too upbeat, not weird + dark + experimental like the VU are supposed to be, but it's also got four of the best goddamn rock n roll songs ever written, so haters get the gas face.

i think however that we all can and should agree that ian is wrong, and nico is great.

aero have you heard the remixed/reissued version of the album where lou's vocals are restored? the producer really fucked w/Loaded first time around

kinda doubt that'd make a diff -- it's just the "heavenly wine and roses" bit on sweet jane (which a r&r animal stan doesn't care about) and a somewhat extended new age.
but i could probably go along with loaded being the worst vu record, even though it is a great great album. didn't we already have a long thread about this?

aero have you heard the remixed/reissued version of the album where lou's vocals are restored? the producer really fucked w/Loaded first time around

no I haven't! but

the "heavenly wine and roses" bit on sweet jane (which a r&r animal stan doesn't care about)

tyler has my number, lol

Live '68

aero have you heard the remixed/reissued version of the album where lou's vocals are restored? the producer really fucked w/Loaded first time around

Same producer as the MC5's High Time. Dude either knew how to sniff out a swan-song, or carried a curse.

High Time: best MC5 album, rite guys?

Intro on the Loaded version of "Sweet Jane" is gorgeous.

aero have you heard the remixed/reissued version of the album where lou's vocals are restored?

Where are they restored? To what tracks? Anyway, Dougie Yule's vocals are great on this album.

Fully Loaded has demos/alternates galore, some with lou singing songs that doug sang on the released album ("oh sweet nothing" for ex.). The only differences with the actual album (aside from remastering) are like I said, the heavenly wine and roses in "sweet jane" and the extended outro in "new age." also some awesome VU versions of lou solo songs like "sad song" and "satellite of love".

There's a few extra bars of guitar chording prior to the solo in "Rock & Roll," also.

Yeah I've got that, "restored vocals" suggested songs where Lou's vocals ahd been taken off and replaced with Doug's. Love the version of "I Love You" with *the chuckling Lou on it.

(*The Chuckling Lou <------- sounds like a fiddle tune or sumthin')

love the dylan-esque 'I found a reason' demo so much more than the final version

(Withdrawn?) Single version of "Head Held High"!

while restoring the heavenly wine bit is cool in theory, it doesn't work -- the harmonies are all wacked out and the drummer pretty much flubs his fill. best realization of what lou had in mind for that part might be on the tots live album.

Extended outro on "New Age" doesn't work either, there's something odd about it, like it's been edited wrongly

yeah, like someone is patching in a bass part at the wrong spot.
best version of new age is by farrrrrrr the one on Live 69 w/ Lou singing the original lyrics.

Loaded was the first VU album I heard, and while I liked it, I didn't get the fuss over them until I picked up Another VU. Over the years, the Loaded track that's ended up growing on me the most is Train Round The Bend, which I didn't notice at all back in the day. I may have said this before, but I'm pretty sure that if the lyrics were about buying drugs and having sex with a transvestite, it'd be regarded as one of their best...

Not being contrarian but honest: I listen to Squeeze *way* more than I listen to Loaded these days...

yule rulez!

― buzza, Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:36 AM

doug or billy?

3rd and 4th ones are boring... and responsible for more bad music than anything this side of Led Zeppelin.

WL/WH all the way!

iatee mentioned that great out-take of 'I Found A Reason' which is just beautiful but my favourite track from the Loaded sessions is probably the vocal cut of 'Ride Into the Sun'.

loaded verz of 'sweet jane' def the best one

It's also the only Velvets song you're likely to hear on "classic rock" radio (and always credited to "Lou Reed and the Velvet Underground").

Not being contrarian but honest: I listen to Squeeze *way* more than I listen to Loaded these days...

Confirming this will flag the post for the attention of the moderators.

j/k

Flagged for craziness.

POLL: How many times does Lou Reed say "suckin on my ding dong" in "Sister Ray"?

POLL: Why don't you count 'em up?

'how many times was she on that POLL?'

we've definitely had this argument before

o come on there's no way the third album is better than the banana one? congrats on challops

"Some Kinda Love" = 4 mins of straight garbage

Some Kinda Challops

Between thought and expression lies 4 mins of straight garbage

First time I listened to Loaded I fell asleep about half way through.

Lou probably did as well, depending on what medication he was on at the time

Put garbage on your shoulder.

"Some Kinda Love" = 4 mins of straight garbage

gtfo that song is awesome!

yes it is one of the best songs.

some kinda troll

tyler between 3rd album & debut which do you take?

xp I mean third album is not awful but I feel like SKl right on top of Pale Blue Eyes kills momentum dead; What Goes on is top 10 VU for me, and the Jesus => That's the Story of My Life sequence is perfect, but I mean banana album is unfuckwithable, an album that has room for "Black Angel's Death Song"/"European Son" along with "Sunday Morning" and "Femme Fatale" is such a better candidate for alltimedom imo

not that you asked me, but I'll take the 3rd. I have no use for Black Angel's Death Song or European Son, really.

yeah SKL is way great

Just re-listened to Rock N Roll. Lou does such a funny Dylan impression.

xps probably the debut because of the all-important cale-iness, but it's neck and neck really.

The production's all kinds of wrong on this one and it's got more filler than the others.

"Some Kinda Love" may have more good lines than any song not written by Holland-Dozier-Holland.

^^^otm
off topic kinda, but everyone should watch this thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Et1ceU09_c

BTW It's fun to sing VU songs like you are Bob Dylan.

"Baby be gooood
do whatcha shouuuuld"

"Rock & Roll" is one of the reasons I don't rate Loaded very highly. It was the first VU song I ever heard (used to be on classic rock radio where I grew up) and it bugged me. Still bugs me. I skip it every time if I can get to the controls.

Just re-listened to Rock N Roll. Lou does such a funny Dylan impression.

much better than the execrable Dylan impression Lou attempts on "Prominent Men"

true story: "Some Kinda Love" helped me come out.

Lou's cover of "Foot of Pride" rules though.

I might be well-served to read the lyrics before spouting off in here, sorry guyz

true story: "Some Kinda Love" helped me come out.

that is way cool imo

banana album is unfuckwithable

it would be impossible to overstate how huge lou reed/the velvets were for me in high school & the first year after high school but I always felt like the 1st album (though loved/love it) was a little over its head. I don't really love 'Black Angel's Death Song' or 'Femme Fatale' at all. Or honestly "there she goes again" tbqf

yeah I love all of those; if I had to pick a song to not love wholeheartedly it's probably "Run Run Run"

Femme Fatale was the first song I figured out vocal harmonies for. Not that they're complicated... when I was 14 or 15 I sat down with two boomboxes, recorded one vocal line on one boombox, then played that back while singing along and pressing record on the other boombox, then kept doing that until I had all the parts together. Blew my little mind.

xp

yeah femme fatale is soooo pretty. the guitars on that song.

The first album, particularly "Waiting for the Man," still carries the most inscrutable resonance with me - probably just because I discovered it first.

also: just listened to Some Kinda Love for the first time in a long time and it still seems to me the one song on the third album that misses Cale the most, but as I said before, I probably am missing the point wrt the lyrics and was excessively rash with my entrance into this thread

1st was hugely influential to me but for listening pleasure nothing beats 3rd

some of the greatest songs ever written rubbing shoulders, material is varied but never feels cobbled together like the first 2, more unified somehow

are you guys even, like, fans of this band??

maybe not..?

I'll never forget hearing "Sunday Morning" the night after that robo trip, it was the most gentle, celestially beautiful song I will ever hear in this life or the next.

My 6+ hours of "Sister Ray" bootleg performances say maybe just a bit.

I don't really love 'Black Angel's Death Song' or 'Femme Fatale' at all. Or honestly "there she goes again" tbqf

"Rock & Roll" is one of the reasons I don't rate Loaded very highly.

"Some Kinda Love" = 4 mins of straight garbage

3rd and 4th ones are boring... and responsible for more bad music than anything this side of Led Zeppelin.

if i could keep Sister Ray i would pretty happily say goodbye to WL/WH

worst day of my life was the 3rd time I went to jail. 2nd worst day was when I heard the Loaded version of "Sweet Jane"

each one has songs i love and songs i very nearly hate.

wtf!

"dudes you guys gotta hear this band, they're gonna change music as we know it"
(puts on 'lonesome cowboy bill')

― iatee, Thursday, March 29, 2012 12:50 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

suggest banana

The only VU song that even mildly annoys me is "The Murder Mystery," and I think I'd like it a lot more if it was shorter. Love everything else (wait, except for that horrible first disc of the box).

xp hahaha tylerw

but seriously folks it's ok if people don't want to put the VU on a pedestal. still my fave band though!

I'll stan for all their albums. whichever one is being slagged off at any given time is the one I'll defend

i listened to white light/white heat THIS MORNING

I started with Loaded too, because the Rolling Stone record guide rated it so highly, and the rest were out of print (this was just months before the 80s reissues). Total head scratcher as to why this band was considered so radical, and I was surprised I knew that "Rock 'n' Roll" song; I figured they'd be so crazy and destructive, it would never show up on AOR. My main reference point for crazy and destructive were 1966 Who bootlegs and Never Mind the Bollocks.

Then the reissues happend, so I went straight to WL/WH, and was much more satisfying, but I thought "Sister Ray" was plodding and boring- I was expecting that anything described as that assaultive would have to have some tempo to it. Then I got Nico, and really started to understand the appeal. "European Son" was pretty much what I *thought* "Sister Ray" was going to sound like, based on the RS description.

Then I got the third, expecting that it would be too reserved, and it quickly ended up my favorite. "Murder Mystery" felt like payoff for my young adolescent efforts at listening to "Revolution #9", an experimental collage I actually enjoyed!

It was so much easier to read about a band than hear them then. I didn't have great access to record shops, and other founding punk documents like Funhouse and Black Generation were out of print too. So I'd read about this stuff for a year before I could track down a copy.

It's a good reminder of how hard it is to write about music, and how age and context play into that. I can see if I was of Dave Marsh's generation, and lived through 60s rock, where VU were on the periphery, Loaded would have seemed like a vindication of their experimental work: they were completely capable of make solid singer/songwriter oriented rock, they just chose to push boundaries. Which is very much in line with the old Rolling Stone point-of-view, that weird puritanical streak that discounted bands that were intentionally crude or ugly or not everyday Joes. Meagre star ratings for you, Black Sabbath, X, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Lydia Lunch.

yeah I don't think there's a bad song on the first 3 albums (or vu), a few lol filler songs on this one so it's the 'worst', I don't really have to rank the others, they are all good

http://www.mindovermetal.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Loutallica-Lulu.jpg

I could never figure out who sings "Sunday Morning"--sounds like--the Ghost of Future Lou, just back from all tomorrow's parties? "my brother Doug" 's audition? It should be just a bit unsettling, given the song, and so it is. I'll check out Fully Loaded, but never had a prob w the first version. True pop art, and "Head Held High"' even sounds like a Johnny Winter gay/gabba gabba anthem, early 70s vocal raunch and all. Way back when Creem did a VU commemoration, they quoted Lou: "That's a lot of people's favorite, and I'm not even on it!"

if I had to do it by which songs I listen to most 'vu' would prob win

admittedly Lou does not sound like Lou on Sunday Morning

are you guys even, like, fans of this band??

― flopson, Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:00 PM (15 minutes ago)

I think part of the reason they're so widely loved is because of their polarizing versatility, so it's not surprising that diff ppl like diff aspects of what they do. I mean we're not talking about creedence clearwater revival here.

Peel Slowly And See is also great (despite or including some ridiculous early demos/rehearsals)

My main reference point for crazy and destructive were 1966 Who bootlegs and Never Mind the Bollocks.

There's a quote somewhere from Cale or Reed...not long after the Velvets formed, Cale went to Wales and came back with some new singles, "Anyway Anyhow Anywhere" and the Small Faces' "Whatcha Gonna Do About It" among them. Reed said to Cale (or vice-versa) something to the effect of, "We gotta put a record out soon, or everyone's gonna think we ripped these bands off!"

xxp i think people who don't like [velvet underground song] are fronting & if they just jammed it in the right mood they'd come around

great post bendy - I think one's own VU sequence narrative is maybe super important to how one ranks the albums. I became a big fan of Lou Reed in a vacuum, I had no outside information on him other than the records I could find (I was 13) which were Transformer & Coney Island Baby & Rock and Roll Animal. Thought he was the greatest thing ever. Heard about the Velvet Underground and for what seemed like an eternity (was probably 1-2 months, lol teenagers) I was looking for somebody who owned the records so I could hear them. Finally got to a friend's house and heard the first one, liked it, but it was when a friend brought White Light back from France that I really felt floored. Third album took another year to hear (after the same friend went back to France with his family, he brought me a copy). At this point I was pretty excited to hear Loaded, I knew its hits and assumed that the album versions would be great. Instead they sounded - breezy, airy. That was not what I wanted from "Sweet Jane" - I liked the Rock and Roll Animal version. I know that's not everybody's style of "Sweet Jane" but I liked & like crunchy riffy 70s shit like Steve Hunter. I bought Steve Hunter solo albums. And I still prefer Lou & Some Guys Who Can Really Play to Lou And His Artist Friends Who're Also Musicians, that's just me.

I dont think you can really not like a band if you're like "Oh, track 8 on the 3rd album is crap". Sort of implies that you've listened to at least that album a bunch.

in the mid-late 60s, eclecticism became the theme, plus I once saw a Cale quote indicating he and maybe they felt competitive w the Beatles--Lou dubbed acid rock rivals "California Trash," though I've heard Grateful Dead's '66 live versions of "Cream Puff War" which I'd swear were VU, good VU

Eclecticism became a big deal w a lot of bands, I meant--could amount to resume rock, or something much more.

yeah but eclecticism for a bands in the 60s meant "we have a folk number *and" a hard rock number!", not "here's a beautifully crafted pop ballad oh and by the way here's 8 minutes of what sounds like a subway car hitting a bag full of cats"

I dunno, in addition to the Velvets, I can think of at least three other 60s bands who did exactly that (the latter).

Make us a list please?

Who, Small Faces, Grateful Dead, Beatles, Jimi Hendrix

the Dead are kinda the classic example I think - Live/Dead & Aoxomoxoa & Anthem of the Sun are all several kinds of intense in the same "we do art and we play rock" ways

it's causing my internal teenage self to shake his damn head when I admit that I'd probably take the Dead over the Velvets at this point in my life

there's just no way to respond to something like that

yeah I mean I love the Dead and all but

Loaded is a roots move not unlike Workingman's Dead or American Beauty.

But you can have both. "Over the bridge we go...It's a New Age!"

well this is from a guy who thought it was a good idea to record "I don't want to miss a thing" so

Loaded is a roots move not unlike Workingman's Dead or American Beauty.

really interesting take!

I mean we're not talking about creedence clearwater revival here.

good thing we aren't, aero hates them

xp

what???

aero that hurts my feelings

haha sorry man it's the truth

I mean I don't HATE em hate em like the Cranberries or whatever but they're v. boring to me

i listened to white light/white heat THIS MORNING

sup

it's causing my internal teenage self to shake his damn head when I admit that I'd probably take the Dead over the Velvets at this point in my life

lol @ u

loaded and the 1st album are my faves. don't really listen to the other 2 anymore. or haven't in a long time. years.

The Godz, Cromagnon

Some of the bonus jams on the CCR reissues of a few years ago actually have VU appeal, like remastered VU Live In '69 appeal--Fogarty could get into some one-chord/no-chord gnarl.

Fogerty, even.

"Ramble Tamble" is their "What Goes On."

creedence rules. so goth. fuck a nick cave.

If it has VU appeal, it would be Fogarty

Loaded vs. American Beauty

Fogpoparty!

revoke aero's citizenship asap imo

I can't understand not liking CCR it's like u hate america

lol am0n

I could imagine "Who Loves The Sun," "Lonesome Cowboy Bill," and maybe "Train Comin' Round The Bend" on American Beauty.

I mean jesus man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2K80kVwEOw

The Dead should invite Doug Yule to tour--lives in the Northwest, plays, records and maybe builds folkie instruments, according to "Fricke's Picks."

anyway I dunno bands like the who and the beatles messed around with noise but VU just got into it up to their elbows, it's the difference between "I dropped acid once in college, it was weird" and "I am an orange don't juice me lucifer"

like maybe if the who had an entire album side that sounded like the last 20 seconds of their smothers brothers appearance

idk I love certain CCR songs and all, but I put on Cosmos Factory and any song that wasnt Ramble Tamble and Up Around the Bend kinda made my eyes glaze over.

That being said, Ramble Tamble & Up Around the Bend justifies the existence of any band (along with Green River, Fortunate Son, and Bad Moon Rising)

xposts to whomever

I only brought up aero's CCR hate so that everyone else would feel more comfortable dismissing his weird-o opinions

total Velvets jam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y-CHghv3w

loaded is totally the best CCR album

Check those CCR reissues, from mid-/late-00s. As for the Who making musical noise, Ever heard "The Ox", on The Who Sings My Generation? (American title, sorry). That was, what, '65, '66? Also, some of the live stuff in The Kids Are Alright doc.

xp lolol

Michael Yonkers might have the VU beat in that noise dept.

i went through this period of time where i didn't like the album "velvet underground" but now i'm digging it all over again

the mellowness rules

Michael Yonkers might have the VU beat in that noise dept.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:08 PM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this album is so tite y'all

http://learningcurverecords.myshopify.com/products/cold-town-soft-zodic-lp-cd

this rare white light/white heat outtake smokes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WApBW55-4l0

I was thinking of dragging Loaded out of the dust, but this thread has got me hankering for CCR instead

Were the records that hard to find in the U.S. until their CD releases in the eighties?

cassettes were widely available by 1986. have no idea about earlier.

the records were hard to find in the U.S. until their CD vinyl rereleases in the eighties

oh ok! I didn't know those records saw a tape release.

When I discovered them in '93 it was a perfect moment. Three covers out at once: Bryan Ferry ("All Tomorrow's Parties"), Duran Duran ("Femme Fatale"), Billy Idol ("Heroin"). Plus, um, they'd just reunited. So I bought Words and Music of Lou Reed, the only comp extant. I didn't buy the studio albums until the remasters came out in '96 or '97.

my brother bought me a cassette of the first album as a Hannukah present in '86

First heard them in the Doors movie. After getting all the Doors albums, I was upset that one Doors song "Heroin" wasn't on any of them.

I remember reading a big writeup in rolling stone by fricke? when they got reissued

Yep, VU and VU & Nico got 5 stars ("the great lost Velvet Underground album is no longer lost; it is simply great"), and WL/WH and the 3rd record each got 4 stars. I bought VU the week it came out on the basis of that review, not having heard them at all. Completely loved it from the first listen.

I would probably like CCR better if I didn't hate the way Fogerty sings, it's just such a drag to me. Can't front on how good their records sound or the vibe they get instrumentally but then Foges starts to croon and it's like yo dude get you some prune juice, it'll be cool

he's a soul shouter

yeah normally I'd be with you on the prune juice but fogerty pulls it off imo, the deep reverb on his voice on some of the CCR recordings sounds so great

but hating the way a lead singer sounds can irreversibly sour a band for me too so I feel ya (o hai the doors)

anyway those VU reishs hit the US around 84/85, before then they were like hen's teeth, at least I never saw a copy in my obsessive trawling of local record stores

an older friend of mine told me at the time how he once found a used copy of the 1st alb, he and his friends excitedly gathered around the record player to check out this much rumored holy grail, they dropped the needle on this completely beat-to-shit copy and that first listen through basically changed his life

nowadays kids are like I'll never forget were I was the first time I streamed "gucci gucci"

</morbz>

it's not the best but it's the one i listen to the most.

Kind of agree with this. "Loaded" is the easiest to listen to straight through of the VU albums. It's a little silly at times, but that's part of the fun.

Oh, information scarcity. Now that I think about it, when I finally heard a lot of protopunk, and it didn't sound like Ramones/Clash/Sex Pistols, I was very confused.

Richard Hell plays blues rock?!?

Funhouse is all seven minutes songs?!??

Television don't ever use distortion?!??!?

lol otm

Loaded is a roots move not unlike Workingman's Dead or American Beauty.

never thought abt that, but it makes sense. "cool it down" has always reminded me very strongly of the dead, w the relaxed, shuffling swing, lazy guitar lines. love that song. loaded's whole first side is great, though side two stumbles occasionally (too boisterous on "head held high" and "train round the bend", "lonesome cowboy bill" kind of a throwaway).

Another lol otm at information scarcity post.

i heard all that stuff while i was first discovering punk, so i wasn't bothered by the discontinuities. television was pretty easy to adjust to if you were already used to the idea that talking heads 77 was punk.

I got the cds shortly after I heard the covers on REM's Dead Letter Office in the late 80s. VU was pretty common currency at my hs, at least amongst a pretty big core of people.

I bought Loaded last even though the red Rolling Stone guide, my bible at the turn of the 90s, rated it five stars (I think, can't check).

3rd > 1st > WL/WH > Loaded fwiw

I got all their original studio LPs in the early 70s, starting w Loaded, soon after it was released. They sounded like bootlegs. Reed told an interviewer they had one day each to master their first three (Loaded sounded about the same). And of course Live At Max's Kansas City sounded like it was recorded on a dictophone or something, which it was, and Live in '69 was pretty bootleggy audio-wise, though compare w the actual bootleg source and seems like Paul Nelson did some pretty astute editing. Of course this was part of their mystique, as the underground Beatles or Beatles upside down, as some said of Big Star (Beatles seek hitmaking vinyl perfection in Fortress of Solitude, VU slap it down and go make $ in clubs)

Paul Nelson's "editing"= song selection, not excising solos etc, best I recall.

Have you read that Paul Nelson bio, don?

xp there's a thing in the paul nelson bio/anthology where nelson talks about the hell he had to go through to get mercury to issue Live 69 -- the president was always like "Why did I let you release this Deep Purple album!?"

And wasn't there something about him finally getting shitcanned from Mercury after the two Dolls records stiffed?

yeah. sounds like he kept his job for as long as he did simply because rod stewart liked him.

"I am an orange don't juice me lucifer"

is this a line from something I have somehow missed my entire life?

Idk if it is or isn't but I thought it was an allusion to a pervasive 'urban legend' I heard about in high school about a drug dealing teenager who fell into a swimming pool with a hundred hits of acid in his pocket and lived his life thinking he was an orange

Loaded is such an easy album to like. How can you not like it? It's so warm and genial.

not a big fan of Yule's vocals throughout the LP, but once that screaming guitar comes in on "Train Comin' Round The Bend" all is forgiven. still their weakest imo.

just as long as you realize that their "weakest" is better than most people will ever make. their weak beats your career.

Scott, have you ever heard American Flyer's LP? Only one, as far as I know--with Doug Yule, Eric Justin Kaz, and others, was kind of intended as, not a supergroup, but pros of proven ability nobody know what else to do with--Like KGB, or Triumvirate, In this case, kind of refined singer-songwriter-country-rock hoping for a hit ballad, I think; haven't heard it. James, have not yet read the Nelson bio. Did you? What did you think? What did it say about his working on the Velvets live stuff?

I have a copy but I haven't really looked at it yet. Seems like Tyler has read it

not a whole lot about the velvets, really. worth a read. depressing, though, dude was a pretty sad sack.
american flyer album is....not very good. i wanted to like it! produced by george martin even.

So not as good as any of those h____ albums he produced for America?

Yeah, American Flyer is seriously bland. IIRC, they did two albums.

just as long as you realize that their "weakest" is better than most people will ever make. their weak beats your career.

― scott seward, Friday, 30 March 2012 00:54 (1 hour ago)

oh yeah this is a given

yeah, i couldn't get into american flyer at all

I listen to Loaded the most if I listen to VU, but I'll take the Dead over the first three VU records, now those bootleg Sister Ray 20 minute jams might be better than any of their records.

ANd Nico sounds half dead most of the time, main reason I haven't listened to their first record since I was 20.

she totally works on those songs. i've always thought. the half dead thing totally works. i mean astrud gilberto was really big back then.

But Astrud makes it sounds sexy!

i dunno i'm a fan of hammer horror vampire living desd girls.

"dead" girls. living dead girl one of my alltime fave movies.

plus, i just love the delivery. damn, if YOU'RE my mirror, i'm fucked!

Lol

"dead" girls. living dead girl one of my alltime fave movies.

oh hell yeah, me too. has there been much jean rollin discussion on ilx?

their weak beats your career.

Ha! Loaded reignited my VU love a couple of years ago following a long stretch where I stopped listening to them (though I was delving into the solo careers a fair bit). I'd rank it below the 1st and 3rd albums but yeah all four are such great records. I've had that a lot recently, getting back into things I thought I'd completely played out, it's great.

My VU 'in obtain order' was:

Double LP "Andy Warhol's VU featuring Nico" http://eil.com/images/gallery_50x50/361886.jpg"

Which has all the first album apart from "I'll be your mirror", and all the second apart from "Lady Godiva's op", about half of the third album, and none of "Loaded" onwards.

I got a cheap http://991.com/images/thumbnails/455201b.jpg after that.

Left the third for a while, knew I'd like it more, so saved it..

"Ramble Tamble" is their "What Goes On."

"Keep On Chooglin'" is their "The Gift"!

Could imagine 'Heard It On The Grapevine' done in the style of 'Sister Ray'.

Talking of introductions to the VU, my sister had a live tape and some demos of a punk band she knew and when the punk band's own stuff finished the tape went into "Sister Ray", about halfway through, that sort of weird mellow bit with almost raga guitar from Lou - and for about a year I had no clue what it was and I'd never heard anything like it before! This is despite the fact that my sister had the 1st album and I knew it like the back of my hand.

Definitely associate CCR with post-Cale VU, sort of stripped down rock with a minimum of flashiness

My introduction to the Velvets was the Joy Division version of Sister Ray on Still and that put me right off for the longest time.

yeah, similar.

Some of the stuff on VU (my intro to them) would not sound the least bit out of place on a CCR record ("I Can't Stand It," "Foggy Notion").

xp

I was in 9th grade I think; had just got the big orange book SPIN's Alternative Record Guide and was kind of obsessed with the list of albums in the back. VU & Nico was #3; I had heard of the Velvets before but was never that interested, but soon after I started reading that book I got my dad to buy me that album and fell in love w/ it instantly

my intro to VU was 1969: VU live, which i bought used when i was about 17. took me a while to get the hang of it. at the time, the only VU/reed songs i knew were the 70s rock radio staples and new sensations, which i'd heard the year before. the live album didn't sound anything like that stuff. a close friend picked up VU the next year and loved it to death, especially "stephanie says" and "foggy notion". that's really what spurred me to track down the proper studio LPs.

make that "and i loved it to death", tho she did too

Sweet Sister Ray is a good jam boot, haven't heard The Lord's Prayer. Peel Slowly And See collected several good jams, like "Melody Laughter." Forget which of their posthumous has "Booker T," but that's real good too; it's also the background music for "The Gift." Was always fascinated by the downhome roots, bluesy infections, "the devil's "third" etc w avant-associated dissonance, ditto Mo Diddly's minimalism. Especially in versions of "What Goes On and "It's Just Too Much" on the Live 69 double LP, w the latter bringing out the Chuck Berry suggestions (or lifts) and Long Guy Land Lou, exclaining, "Take me back down/Where Ah bee-long/Evah-thing Ah DOO is wrowng!" So I was ready for Gun Club and the original Flesh Eaters, w members of X and the Blasters. Was a long thing by them on YouTube for a while, maybe too long, but good enough. Of course, once I thought about it, was a theme at least as far back as the 60s: Mingus, Beefheart, Paul Butterfield Blues Band finding their way into "East West", Henry Threadgill's Air playing Jellyroll Morton, Trane's blues elements, Archie Shepp, some of Ornette Coleman's Prime Time tracks, Sonny Sharrock ("All Blues" got him into guitar, "Dark Was The Night, Cold Was The Ground" got him into slide) Tom Waits from Swordfishtrombones on, etc. etc.

"Peel Slowly" also has Booker T.

I actually hear VU as a proper studio LP. It seems selected and sequenced as such, and never sounded to me like an odds-and-sods compilation, like Another View does.

xxp

you can hear the vu combine european son & suzy q here. this is 1966 tho, so it's not a CCR reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx2Tj7S5xlw

Always liked Cale's li'l Tex-Mex organ bit in "Sister Ray" too--hola Augie Meyer!

^otm

The organ-guitar duels generally!

someone told me that back in the day the live album was the only velvets album that stayed in print, so it was the one that people would usually hear first.

Yes, that's exactly the case. 1969 Live was the first one I bought...finally found a copy of Banana at the Vinyl Solution in Tuscaloosa in 1982, then 2 and 3 were rereleased in 1985, the ones with the Kurt Loder liner notes.

I think I found Loaded in late 84 or early 84.

Some of Cale's Sun Blindness Music discs have some duel-icious guitar-organ dueling, only it's with Sterling instead of Lou.

I bet this woulda been fun:
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_krdkn9t3mi1qa5w86o1_500.jpg

(although it wasn't, according to Sterling)

the ones with the Kurt Loder liner notes

lol forgot about these. Loder wrote a lot of reissue liner notes.

bong loder

I generally wouldn't give Loder the time of day, but "withering guitar flipout" was a great phrase that has stuck in my head ever since. (re "I Heard Her Call My Name")

The Velvets rehabilitation in the 80s was rapid and stunning. In 1984, I'd read about them, but go to the shops, and all I'd ever see was the double live record tossed in the generic V section. It looked so slapdash, like a Historia De La Música Rock import, didn't want to sink my money into it. Then I finally found Loaded at the Harvard Coop. But by 1987, I'd see VU& Nico pretty often among the dozen CDs owned by the kids who owned CD players, nestled between Avalon, Staring at the Sea and Brothers in Arms.

Loaded and 1969 Live were always in print. For the other albums I had to take the R train to 8th street and wait for the cool record store dudes to stroll in around noon to sell me the imports.

The Velvets rehabilitation in the 80s was rapid and stunning.

I think a lot/most/all of it can be put down to the 1985 reissue program coinciding with R.E.M. and U2 mentioning the Velvets a lot in interviews.

yeah, that was what did it. Didn't work out quite as well for Flipper when Cobain came along a few years later.

I think a lot of it had to do with they are amazing records

otm. Love what Robert Quine said about them in this interview: http://www.furious.com/perfect/quine.html

The albums were being mentioned by punks and critics circa 78 and 79 too. I remember as a college freshman in fall '79 being scolded at my university radio station by the program director (who wanted a job in commercial radio and thought even college radio should just be about imitating commercial radio) for playing "Heroin," during my 3 to 6 am dj slot. I had found the VU albums back in the station's record library.

Those '85 reissues showed up in my nowheretown reoord store at EXACTLY the right time for me, a year after reading Lester Bangs' (and Fricke's and everybody's) various Velvets-raves, and a year before going off to lol college

I don't know about REM and U2, but I think that bands like the Jesus & Mary Chain were probably quite important in raising the profile of the Velvets in the mid-80s, at least in the UK press anyway. Lloyd Cole too maybe.

i'd say live 1969 > 3rd > loaded > vu & nico. weird as vu & nico is one of the best albums of all times.

"jangle" as a thing was often framed as the legacy of the VU by the US music press, esp in ref to stuff like REM & the feelies

I always forget the jangle thing was CA; VU worship was more about the drone

forget = thought

"what goes on" = proto jangle

On their 1985 Rockline (nationally syndicated US radio call-in show) R.E.M. mentioned the Velvets, Big Star, Pere Ubu, and Mission of Burma as some of their influences. When asked about the jangle thing, Stipe said, "I hate the Byrds."

lol stipe. covers aside, r.e.m. really doesn't sound like any of those bands.

rem definitely does not sound like pere ubu. but the byrds, big star & vu can definitely be heard in their music.

MOB too

dunno, not really convinced. what rem songs sound like those bands?

(byrds i can hear, the other ones mentioned less so. not saying they weren't *influenced* by those bands, just that it's not readily apparent. to me.)

I totally hear Pere Ubu in REM come on now

really? what songs?

the whole mechanical dance-rhythms plus jingle-jangle plus inscrutable yelping

like say Ubu Dance Party

and then there's the surrealism-by-way-of-Americana angle, I dunno I see lots of parallels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoetNuXONhQ

is not far from Chronic Town/Murmur tracks to my ears. I mean obviously Dave Thompson's vocal style is pretty different but there's some similar elements

Most "9-9/Wind Out"s from pre-'86 shows have distinctly Ubu-esque moments.

Radio Free Europe is a little bit reminiscent of Non Alignment Pact, that bassline especially sounds Ubu-ish, it's got that wobbly urgency.

Too bad Stipe sounds more like James Taylor than Crocus Behemoth, although on Murmur he at least sounds like JT sliding into his methadone escalator, cool. There was some re-contextualized jangle in "Lady Godiva's Operation"(as LG gets her own re-context on, or off). Otherwise, the jangliest thing I can think of is "Who Loves The Sun," released in 1970, one of the least jingle-jangle morning years evsh, even for those of us who weren't in Cambodia at the time-time. Music was going into the heavy arena boogie, or getting back to its roots--a bit of jangle in nascent country rock, come to think of it, but not getting the kind of radio play VU may have been hoping for. ("Pack up your tent McGuinn, you ain't goin', nooowhere.")

Sunday Morning and Femme Fatale or total jingle jangle

yeah, I guess, but if so, that was the jangly folk-rock moment, so why not--while 1970 was so not, so fucking why??

although I never had any prob with it--first hearing it in '73, q much sunnier year

wow that quine interview is great.

How are The Quine Tapes? Xgau's review ends w mention of "new guitar"(?)

lol yeah I dunno. I love Who Loves the Sun but it's definitely not of-it's-time

Femme Fatale def has some jangle. I'm Set Free too. What Goes On sounds like an epic outtake from Love's first album (except for the vocals)

Sunday Morning has xylophone which is totally diff't

yes it has xylophone, but it also has Sterling's rhythm guitar part

Maybe they were trying to cheer us up! Yeah, maybe would have worked if I'd heard it in '70. Pretty sweet funny sly sometimes badass album overall. Speaking of Quine, I just remembered this email I sent out a couple years ago, the main link still works, haven't checked the hound's blog lately:
Hey came across this, new to me anyway, linked from the MySpace page of The Black Keys, whose Dan Auerbach turns out to be a member of Bob Quine's family, and what a family, wish I knew them, here's their hearty brainy Midwesten site, with much about Bob & other goodness: http://rubbercityreview.com/tag/Robert-Quine
The Quine site link to houndblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/quine.htmlis worth checking too, though the Hound's account of RQ's last days is pretty harrowing Tons of links to music and vids on both sites, though I haven't had time to check nearly all of them.

xpost nitpick: xylophone is made up of wood bars and has a lower register. i think that's a glockenspiel (sic?) or something like that

Oh my bad

I love Who Loves the Sun but it's definitely not of-it's-time

A lot of bubblegum rock on the radio in those years.

To answer the question posed in the subject line of this thread: yes.

sunday morning has celeste on it.

anyhoo, re: REM maybe it's just that stipe is such a singular vocalist that it's hard for me to hear those other bands in their overall sound.

Whoever mentioned Train Round The Bend upthread is OTM, Man I love that song, maybe the most.

*plays 'I Heard Her Call My Name' on the loop while reading thread*

As a result of this thread CCR totally clicked for me.

Great Quine interview:

The deliberate cretinism of the drums and the bass. The way that the bass walks at the end. In the middle of the song, he says 'work it now' and there's no guitar solo. That's beyond cool.

More lol:

We limped on with various personnel. Jake Riveria picked us up and Nick Lowe produced us- he was too poppy for what we were doing. By then, in late '78, we realized that no one was interested in us. So the deal was that we'd tour with Elvis Costello for two months, stay in England and Nick Lowe would produce an album for us. It was a grim tour. Costello was getting more and more popular, less punk. The audience had no interest in us- when we hit the stage, the applause would stop. We played in some dire villages that looked like they didn't even have electricity.

My introduction to the Velvets was the Joy Division version of Sister Ray on Still and that put me right off for the longest time.

― Valéry Giscard d'Staind (NickB), Friday, March 30, 2012 3:05 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Me too ... and sometimes I'd hear "Sweet Jane" on the radio and think "what is this shit, the Cowboy Junkies totally rescued this song".

just re: outtakes & all everyone has to get with this, whatever they think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmmSfru60MY

& scott is otm, loaded is so easy to like. i mean it's got rock & roll on it, it's such a good lou record, stuff like the above included.

As a result of this thread CCR totally clicked for me.

no slam, but genuine lols

ccr, by any means necessary

welcome aboard

my work here is done

three re Quine 1) on VU bass & drums: "deliberately cretinous"--well, Mo dug Bo, don't know Cale's agenda, but sure does seem like this combo loved to veer into strobe visions of Times Square topless go-go bar (foretelling classic headline "Headless Body Found In Topless Bar"). Also keeping mynd Seeds, Standells, Electric Prunes etc, who had the hits after all, but VU too cool to linger (although good for their club act, of course) 2) He may have been miserable on the UK tour, but a really good live legit CD very eventually emerged 3) forgot what I was going to write

How are The Quine Tapes? Xgau's review ends w mention of "new guitar"(?)

― dow, Friday, March 30, 2012 4:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

they are amazing, a total revelation, imo better than 1969 Live, etc.

Thanks! "a really good live legit CD": Richard Hell and the Voidoids' Time (longer and better sounding edition of the show on their ROIR live tape)

dow - we've got time for yr 3). Plese come back sometime.

In other developments I'm kinda regretting listening to ccr as I clicked on a HIGHLY OFFENSIVE Pavement cover of Sinister Purpose.

Minuteman must have done something w/one of their songs so I'll hunt that -- to clear the damage, you understand.

Minuteman must have done something w/one of their songs so I'll hunt that -- to clear the damage, you understand.

they did, more than once!

yes quine tapes are great -- dunno if i'd rank 'em above live 69 because the sound quality on that is superior. if the quine tapes were as hi-fi as live 69 it'd be the quine tapes on top for sure.

Isn't there a decent amount of overlap between the two?

nope, iirc just one ("rock n roll") is the exact same performance on both releases. they're both recorded around the same time, and both have tracks from the Matrix Club.

A little fixated, maybe, but now I'm wondering about the opening to Train Round The Bend in relation to Bowie's Speed of Life. Where does that idea of a distorted repeated note bouncing from speaker to speaker start...?

The problem w/all live tapes at the moment is that they're utterly destroyed by the samples from the Matrix tapes that still haven't come out, which is sort of crazy making.

crazy making indeed. those tapes would essentially render both the quine tapes and live 69 (great as both of those are) obsolete.

iirc, when The Quine Tapes were first released, Lou mentioned the Boston Tea Party (better known as "the guitar amp tapes" or something...?) as being the next installment. Then his bowels acted up, and he nixed all future Quine Tapes installments.

Ha at that description.

"deliberately cretinous"--well, Mo dug Bo

oh yeah, that's what got me thinking about Beefheart and the Magic Band etc xpost. And Moe didn't play so many straight-up Bo Diddley Burundi beats did she? Lou: "We just needed somebody to play the telephone book." Whatta guy.

god I love the Vulgar Boatmen and their predecessor Right To Left, thank you so much for bringing them up - and I think they do have a clear lineage from the Velvets in many ways. (xp)

The first Moe solo album is pretty damn amazing.

Moe is.

thread title otm

took me ten years to figure that one out

I don't think it's the best VU album, but I think the Fully Loaded edition might be the best reissue of all time. All those alternate takes and solo Lou sketches are essential.

Dave Marsh thought it was their best, and Mitch Ryder dug it:

Six months later, I’m sitting at a table at the Waldorf, some room where Mitch is doing a debut party for his Detroit [album], and they hit “Rock’n'Roll,” which they’d worked up about a day after first hearing it. We were sitting right up front, and Lou leans over from across the table next to us and says, “That’s what that song was supposed to sound like.”

"And then Lou put his hands around my neck and tried to strangle me."

and i dunno, loaded is one of the best albums ever, but an album w/o moe on it can't be the best VU album.

It's their only "very good" album. I have problems with Yule singing more than one song per album.

i think he works on "who loves the sun" and "oh sweet nuthin" but he does not deliver on "new age" -- the live 69 version is farrrrrr superior, vocally and lyrically.

Agreed except about his vocals working on "Oh! Sweet Nuthin"

"And then Lou put his hands around my neck and tried to strangle me."

hahaha

Interestingly, for all of Marsh's criticisms of Lou, they apparently got along great -- Marsh recently mentioned seeing Lou earlier this year, and said he seemed to be in great health/spirits.

But then, as Marsh notes, he never tried to interview Lou.

xp have you heard the versions w/ lou singing? there's one on the reissue and a bootleg version -- i'm not sure he would've been a better fit.

Only Yule vocal I think is iffy is "Lonesome Cowboy Bill." It's way too fast for a sweet vocal. He nails everything else, though.

As bassist he's far more interesting than Cale, or maybe the songs Reed was writing took advantage of Yule's particular talents. "Foggy Notion" is all-time.

cale is a pretty interesting bassist! but yeah, i love yule's playing -- i pretty much learned to play bass listening to live 69 as a teenager. what's weird is that yule claims he never played bass before he joined the velvets -- he had played baritone horn and tuba in his school band.

Cale is a brilliant bass player, but crazy, I love the bass on "The Gift"

He nails everything else, though.

He does.

So he had an idea of the parts to play, just had to transfer from breath power to finger power. Interesting.

yeah obviously he understood what the low end was supposed to do in music, but hadn't actually played bass w/ a rock band before (i guess he was playing guitar in previous bands). it's funny, he describes learning the repertoire as no big thing: "It was like, first chorus, play a solo for an hour and a half and we're out."

well the material's not terribly complicated

but hadn't actually played bass w/ a rock band before (i guess he was playing guitar in previous bands)

Bit like Noel Redding then

yeah, not complicated in terms of musicianship, though i can see how some players just wouldn't be able to go for it in the way that Yule did.

but anyway, otm about the fully loaded edition being essential, so much great stuff on there. though i still sort of have a quibble with the "heavenly wine and roses" "sweet jane" being put on there in the original album's sequencing. i love that part, but the performance there is kind of lamentable. the drummer (billy?) pretty much blows it. maybe i'm just used to the original CD I bought in the early 90s.

i still sort of have a quibble with the "heavenly wine and roses" "sweet jane" being put on there in the original album's sequencing. i love that part, but the performance there is kind of lamentable.

Sounds like it's from a runthrough, I've never believed Lou when he said it was edited out, I doubt it was ever seriously recorded for inclusion in the track

well, i don't know about that -- they play it at Lou's last show at Max's don't they? and i think in early solo versions from 72 or thereabouts, Lou plays it. I believe it was supposed to be part of the song, but once Lou left the band, they may have been unable to get a decent edit of that in there.

Cale does that great bass run at the end of the verse in "I'm Waiting for the Man."

And "European Son!"

"I Heard Her Call My Name" - wish I could hear him a little better on that. Sometimes I think Cale might actually be my all-time favorite bass player.

Sorry I'm always arguing with you Alfred!

As bassist he's far more interesting than Cale, or maybe the songs Reed was writing took advantage of Yule's particular talents. "Foggy Notion" is all-time.

― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, November 8, 2013 9:45 AM (1 hour ago)

While Lou's and Sterling's guitar tracks are both incredible, the bass playing on Foggy Notion is pretty basic/monotonous with a couple runs/turnarounds that aren't very difficult or original unless you are a novice. Great song, but the bass playing never stood out to me as anything more than serviceable.

Loaded is pretty overrated, seems like almost all of these songs were almost always improved when done live or when the album was reissued with better versions. I'll take "VU" over Loaded any day of the week.

Oh I'm not praising Yule's skillz so much as THAT basic hook. Easy to play, taken for granted.

Changing "Sweet Jane" and "New Age" on the Fully Loaded version was such a bizarre idea. Make bonus tracks, sure, but to seriously mess with major songs from a major album that people had been listening to for 35 years? So strange.

Yeah, I don't love the interpolated stuff either, it is weird. The only thing it sort of reminds me of is the CD of Money Jungle I have which has the songs in the order they were recorded rather than the original album sequence, so before you get to to the good stuff you have to sit through some lightweight warmup numbers at the beginning that I don't think made it into the LP.

When I first heard VU and Nico I didn't get what was all the fuzz about. With Loaded I got it. This is a top 10 album of all time for me, vu and nico is great but I wouldn't add it anywhere near a top 100.

Fell asleep halfway through my first listen of Loaded. First listen of VU&N keep me wide awake all night.

but hadn't actually played bass w/ a rock band before (i guess he was playing guitar in previous bands)

So why choose him to play bass then? Also Cale played his last gig with the VU on the 28th September 1968 and Yule his first gig on 4th October 1968, so I assume Yule had been waiting in the wings, as it were, after all probably half of the VU set at the time was unreleased material (and he was recording the 3rd album with them just over a month later).

yule says: "I was a PIsces and they needed a Pisces to balance it out. John was a Pisces, Lou was a Pisces, Moe and Sterling were Virgos, they wanted to have this astrological balance."

btw, all of this info comes from that unterberger book, which seems to me to be the best book on the VU. I don't always agree w/ his opinions regarding the music, but the dude has done a massive amount of research.

this is their 'fun' record, the one to play at parties, unless u r a goff

all of this info comes from that unterberger book, which seems to me to be the best book on the VU

Never read that... so where did I read the story Mo tells of when they were rehearsing with Yule, one of his first times, and he came up with the bassline for "Jesus" and Lou was all, "That is fantastic, Jeez, isn't this guy great?" or some such and Mo was like, "Hmmmmmmm, let's not blow this guy's ego up too much"?

that's in Uptight iirc. it is a pretty cool bass line tbh. yule says he basically spent a day w/ Lou right before that la cave gig learning about 30 VU songs.

which is crazy! as noted, the songs are not super complex, but just keeping them straight in your head seems like quite a task. that la cave show is amazingly killer though.

(xp) Yeah that's it, it was Lou reporting back to Mo + Sterling (who strike me as two people who were fairly hard to impress) the next day

Lost my copy of Upright, aargh, but a version of that story is also in a book called something like The Velvet Underground Reader

^^^ that reader is good shit

Mo + Sterling (who strike me as two people who were fairly hard to impress)

just watched a video of the 1st VU reunion in 1990 and sterling is pretty awesome in his i-don't-give-a-fuck-ness.

Book is actually The Velvet Underground Companion: Four Decades of Commentary, edited by Albin Zak III, is that the same one, Alfred? Interview with Nico is hilarious. The editor wrote two books I've been meaning to read, The Poetics of Rock: Cutting Tracks, Making Records and I Don't Sound Like Nobody: Remaking Music in 1950s America.

yeah i have that one - it has some music students' thesis on sister ray, which compares it to madonna's "like a prayer."

Must have skipped that one.

lol just looked it up, i was wrong -- not "like a prayer" -- "express yourself."

he says that the "harmonic and melodic organization" of both songs "subvert the phallic narrative assumptions of standard western harmony."

Don't go for second best, baby, don't you know you'll stain the carpet?

Perhaps you preferred the prior piece, "Sylvia's Husband," by Donna Gaines.

haha, yeah, there is some interesting stuff in there.
the 1968 review of white light white heat is kind of amazing, too, in that it's simultaneously pretty insightful and totally off its rocker (lots of mel lyman references).

One good thing about the VU being a little under the radar back in the day is there wasn't an ocean of Baby Boomer inkspill about them to contend with. As far as I knew there was only whatever was in Trouser Press or The Voice, the Ellen Willis piece in Stranded and the CREEM guys calling Lou Butch Firbank.

http://scoobydoo.wikia.com/wiki/Butch_Firbanks

haha, yeah, there is some interesting stuff in there.
the 1968 review of white light white heat is kind of amazing, too, in that it's simultaneously pretty insightful and totally off its rocker (lots of mel lyman references).

That had to have been written by Wayne McGuire, right?

indeed!

Ahahaha, thought so!

Guy was apparently a bit of a nutcase with some 'peculiar' views on race and other things

yeah, that's the dude -- some deep investigation here: http://black2com.blogspot.com/2004/08/do-any-of-you-remember-wayne-mcguire.html

I feel the need to respond to the OP with a resounding NO, Loaded suxxx and its defenders are deluded at best, every single one of these songs that has a live version is better served by said live version.

happily deluded, then.

I crap on this album too much, it's such a great record. Listened to it today on the way to the river. "Who Loves the Sun" is the perfect goth Beach Boys song. Twee Anti-Monkees. "I Found A Reason" inventing slowcore w music from the hearts womb. "You are what you percieve" so beautiful so simple so spiritual. A lot of this album is joyful, and joyful in a pure way wo the trappings of perversion and noise found on the earlier more experimental work. The triangle is mixed really loud on "Who Loves the Sun" and I love it.

This is the VU's "LA Woman", the blues rock last gasp, maybe Reed thought the band would be over soon and wanted to do hyper real satirical versions of the west coast hippie rock that the VU was always opposed to. Underneath the good vibes and "Head Held High" there is this sneering cynicism, the too fast punk pace of "Lonesome Cowboy Bill". The urban cowboy who just sleeps around and crashes on couches and needs you to hear him yodelayheehoo. This is Bizarro VU, anti-cheerleaders for the prom king.

There is some soul in this stuff. "Sweet Jane" and "Rock n Roll" are both lo fi Dylan sped up and run through a gospel filter.

"Oh Sweet Nothing" is really amazing. It's a shame The Marshall Tucker Band ripped it off, "Can't You See" is nearly the exact same instrumental performance. It's weird because in their hands it was woman-blaming southern machismo flexing, but in the hands of the VU it is beautiful asexual transcendental ephemeral.

It's weird but I feel like "We're Only In It For the Money" and this have a lot in common.

"Train Going Round the Bend" is AMAZING. Those guitars. It's a track that would fit perfectly on "Slanted and Enchanted".

I must hate Velvet Underground because I love this album - and it's actually one of my favorite albums of all time - but I don't really rate the rest of their work that high. All VU fans I've met think I'm being stupid for rating Loaded as their best but just a listen to, I dunno, 'Sweet Jane' and you can immediately hear the unbelievable scope of this album. Almost every song in here feels joyful and miserable at the same time.
Take a look at these lyrics: “Jack is in his corset/Jane is in her vest/ and me, I’m in a rock and roll band.” the distinction is meaningless. Usually VU use a question and response on their lyrics which is mostly absent from Loaded. In Loaded it feels like they're just observers, not active and critical participants of their environment as they are in other albums. They dropped the dark, bleak band from previous albums and showed how they can contrast the rock rebellious spirit with pop sensibility just as easily.

The original version of the album is unfortunately a travesty: too many inner drama between the band, the label forcing needless edits and remixes of an album which was supposed to be 'loaded' with hits. If you're still unsure about this album the Fully Loaded and Peel Slowly editions correct some of this problems.

It's by far the VU album I listen to the most, but of course it's not as "important" as the others. 12 people on ilm think it's da best
Ranking the Velvet Underground studio albums

Favourite Velvet Underground album (with extra facility) say it's only five.

However, Ten people say it's their Fourth fav VU album

at the university gym last night, the 18-year-olds on the climbing wall were blasting this album, so it must be cool with the modern youth of today

xp haha, thorough msg board this

The original version of the album is unfortunately a travesty

Pardon my French, but this is utter bollocks. Also have never bought the idea that there's some sort of tongue-in-cheek laughing-up-their-sleeves Zappa/Mothers thing going on with this album.

If there is, it's limited to "I found a reason"

Good work on this thread by my friends from the Lou Guest DJ's on WPIX-FM Listening Thread, tylerw and Tom D.

xp agree I never thought of it as an ironic record, not at all like Zappa to me, on the contrary it has a lot of emotional and sincere statements

It seems to be their most mainstream record. Most conventional pop but still has something of a subversive edge.

I have the Fully Loaded version but might grab some version of the forthcoming one.

So once they've got through this they've reissued all the official during the lifetime Lps, or even slightly posthumous in this case. At least of the Lou years. Wonder what they will go onto next? Is there going to be anything further?

Might be nice to get some of the live stuff issued legitimately separately. Not sure on the legitimacy of the old bootleg stuff that has been put out outside of the boxsets. Has any of that been legit or all boot? Just seem to be selling through supposedly legit sites like Amazon.

yeah there are random bootlegs (boston tea party, la cave etc) that seem to be just selling in an "import" kinda way on amazon and elsewhere. not sure if there's some kind of grey area there or if no one cares at this point. I imagine the next thing will be an expanded Live 69, w/ the complete matrix tapes + end of cole avenue. think there's still at least 45+ minutes (maybe more?) of the matrix stuff they annoyingly left off of the last 45th anniversary box set.

xpost yeah I'm probably over-emphasizing the irony, and in half the songs there is definitely no irony things like "Rock n Roll" and "Reason" are as vulnerable as VU have ever been. But I tend to write off the country rock songs and yesterday they seemed a bit sped up and more of a caricature, like mutant versions of songs off "American Beauty", than just deadpan dad rock. I would still recommend the album over any other VU to Grateful Dead fans. Not sure if that was on purpose (I can totally picture Lou being told to write some commercial tracks and sneering at west coast rock "I'll show you how to write a choogle") or VU just has this underlying sinister beauty that shows up no matter what.

Yeah, I sort of think of Loaded (outside of "Rock n Roll", "Reason", and maybe "New Age") as the apotheosis of Lou's Pickwick period tendencies, where questions of sincerity are beside the point.