Fingerstyle Guitar: Can You Do It?

And if so how well? Nylon string or steel string? Is there a difference in technique between nylon and steel? Do flamenco players have the best technique? Do you Travis pick? Using i, im, ima, ima + e or c whatever they call the pinky? Are you left-handed like me? Does that make it extra-challenging?

oppa fingerstyle
heeeeey sexy Fender

(no I cannot)

(Then maybe you should take lessons from Freddie Bryant, Dan)

huh maybe!

i do a lot of half-assed self-mess fingerpicking thx to starting out as a bass player and playing a fair amount of classical for a while, so it ends up as some sorta morphed clawhammer weirdness. def not "good" at it, but people think it's impressive if they don't know better. i barely ever play with a pick, tbh.

I will say that after you set up my guitar and started strumming all kinds of awesome shit on it I was super impressed, because I don't know any better

I can fingerstyle moderately badly. Steel string only because I fantasise about playing amplified even though I never play anywhere other than on my sofa in front of the tv. Flamenco is fun but not for me maybe, idk. Have learnt by rote/brute force a handful of fingerstyled tunes (here comes the sun, blackbird, these days). Can travis pick (ima) + related patterns but not quite well enough to do it over ad hoc chord changes, and certainly not improvising a melody line over the top or whatever - that is the next goal, i guess.

yeah i am pretty bad at it and wish i was much better

I can play a bunch of Fahey and Elizabeth Cotton songs and stuff like that decently well. I mostly use T, I and M. Used to play a little classical guitar which uses the ring finger as well, and as much as this adds options, I find it easier to play without it on a steel string. I do love bossa nova and samba guitar though, which uses thumb and three fingers.

I can't do flamenco or anything speed-heavy. I've always had slow hands.

• not really
• prefer nylon but most times I've tried this has been on steel strings
• nylon has a greater variation in tone depending on whether you pluck the string with the nail, side of the nail, side of the thumb/finger/etc.
• no opinion, but it reminds me of the argument that the fastest electric players are the 'best' players
• Travis picking: I've tried it a lot, but it's like playing the rhythm to 'No Fun' by The Stooges - it's simple enough, but if you don't get it more or less exactly right it sounds terrible
• I don't bother using my little finger as it isn't long enough
• right handed
• I don't think that being left handed makes much of a difference past the mental effort to remember everything 'backwards'. Fingerstyle is hard whichever way round you play, because of the effort in training your fingers to do what you're telling them.

well left-handed does make classical tricky because its hard as fuck to find a lefty classical guitar

Forgot to ask whether you trim your nails to a specific shape.

fuck that, i pick with my fleshy fingerpads and screw the tone, i'm only amusing myself after all.

yeah i actually avoid the nail thing because im mostly playing electric and i dont want to overemphasize the snappiness i already get because of my fucked up technique

wat is travis picking?

when I was perusing guitar teachers the other day, I ran across a fingerstyle dude who included "nail maintenance" as one of his major areas of instruction, which is honestly not anything that would ever have occurred to me to worry about

guitar style made very popular by the british band "Travis" xpost

And if so how well? - i'm competent. i posted a video up on the other thread of me playing

Nylon string or steel string? Nylon mostly

Is there a difference in technique between nylon and steel? one hurts your fingers more

Do flamenco players have the best technique? don't think so

Do you Travis pick? dunno

Using i, im, ima, ima + e or c whatever they call the pinky? I don't know what this means but I only sometimes use my pinky

wat is travis picking?
Playing a steady bass line with your thumb on the beats and playing everything else with some subset of the other fingers. Named after Merle Travis although of course he didn't invent it.

i also dont worry about nails much because given the nature of the shit i do around the store, im going to fuck up my nails as often as not, and ive known dudes that were basically incapable of playing with a broken nail.

i also suck w/fingerpicks, although ive found that the fred kelly thumbpicks combined with those alaskan fingerpicks are worlds ahead of the usual dunlop/national plastic stuff.

to starting out as a bass player and playing a fair amount of classical for a while
Classical guitar? Did you have a teacher or read a book or just figure it out yourself?

wat is travis picking?
Playing a steady bass line with your thumb on the beats and playing everything else with some subset of the other fingers. Named after Merle Travis although of course he didn't invent it.

― Johnny Too Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:01 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Travis picking is a misnomer not only for this reason but also because Travis actually only used his thumb and index, which almost no one does.

I've always assumed the style evolved out of an immitation of stride and ragtime piano.

i'm an unbelievably chronic nailbiter which pretty much fucks me as a remotely serious fingerstyle player. on the couple occasions i've been able to grow out those nails it's pretty great tho.

Hah, I knew someone was going to call me on that and say that he only used his index. How many fingers did Elizabeth Cotten use?

i don't play with a pick much anymore but i can't call it "fingerstyle" really. it's all kind of half-assed in a jeff beck/mark knopfler kind of way. but less good.

I think people who are more careful say Travis-picking for thumb plus index, and Atkins-picking for thumb plus index plus middle.

Elizabeth Cotten played upside down with her thumb playing on the high strings. Pretty sure she mainly used three fingers but IDK. Search her on youtube, mind-boggling to watch her left hand.

As for nails, I prefer either bare flesh or fingerpicks

I had never looked at gary davis's fingerings, and out of curiosity I found him on youtube -- whadya know, plays with his thumb and index too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlQZwHcBqyQ

Lenny Breau used the ring finger and eventually started using the pinky as well I think. As as result when he would drop by to see his mentor Chet Atkins and show him some new stuff at some point Chet couldn't play it.

Is everything I've ever read on the Internet about travis picking wrong? I thought it was a specific pattern:

x---x--
--x----
-t---t-
t--t---

(any four strings, t=thumb, x=other finger/s of choice)

Bottom is right, mostly, although you could reverse the order and thumb a higher string first. Top could be anything. Also it is not limited to four strings, you could be using thumb on bottom two or three strings and the fingers on the top three or four.

Yeah was just trying to keep the diagram simple!

The specific pattern is that the thumb never stops playing quarter notes. Maybe we forgot to mention that.

Hm. actually the dashes don't seem right in that diagram even for the thumb.

Just saw a guy playing a six string bass fingerstyle like a guitar.

That lick mark knopfler plays before yelling "ha!" during the "in the gallery" solo is the reason one might want to sound snappy on an electric

Hm. actually the dashes don't seem right in that diagram even for the thumb.

oh yeah i missed a gap, first notes (the pinch) are quarter, the rest are eighths.

x----x--
---x----
--t---t-
t---t---

interested to know what fahey tunes you play, hurting. are they tricky? in alternate tunings?

I play Orinda-Moraga/Poor Boy Long Ways from Home pretty decently (alternate tuning), I can pick my way through Bicycle Built for Two ok (I play in standard but I'm not sure that's how he does it), and also Requiem for John Hurt when I'm in practice (a favorite)

the triplets on Requiem for John Hurt are pretty tricky

Oh and Jesus is a Dying Bedmaker -- one of the best song titles ever

cheers. they mostly sound if not look well beyond my level but it's good to have goals.

not just good, necessary. if i don't have something to work towards i end up treading water or not even playing at all.

The easiest of them would be Orinda-Moraga -- the bend thing is a neat trick that's simple once you get it down

One of my all-time faves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLeqnEDF7jU

Can do it a bit but not very well, too lazy tbh, flatpickers of the world unite!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BqISqpMRo8

^^ James Taylor explains about nails

im starting to play rudimentary fingerstyle travis picking crabclaw whatever. i've just got the basic premise of it and i'm like too in love with this thing that i can make and just play with it all the time, not really progressing. i learnt like wildwood flower and then just played with the scale and chord combinations.

i think my housemates are pretty bored of this sound now

Learn this, it's easier than it sounds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFAsoKHepRI

Plax, can you do "Blackbird" already?

no but lol i hate the beatles. this is ilx!

Boots of Spanish leather is a good starter song. Downside is it'll make you miserable

g-d i wish i could play guitar

I wish I could play a good fingerstyle, but instead I'm all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f51QWBM7IME

Working on that Travis picking, though. I get discouraged easily. I think I listen to Will Ackerman and Leo Kottke and just expect to play like them after twenty minutes of practice.

Sometimes I tune to dadgad and I get 'choon or two going though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOxJeoNFl3E

I have a steel strung and a nylon strung guitar. I find that practicing finger picking on the wider-necked nylon guitar makes chords a lot easier when I switch back to the steel string (almost to the point that I feel like I'm cheating).

I tune down to c# to make everything a bit easier, generally speaking. For some reason, things that need to be in standard tuning are just easier to fret with the capo at three; rather than just tuning up to E (maybe that's a mental thing though and I should get over it).

I was recently told to listen to John Hurt because even though what he's playing isn't that easy, it **SOUNDS** easy and is, therefore, easy to follow.

on top of the difference in tension, i imagine you're getting better action with the capo'd fret vs. the nut.

i've been trying to learn finger style stuff, but life's in the way of that most of the time. i can play most of a skip james song, and the first few parts of "angie" (jansch's version) but uhh that's really hard. i started with a hybrid style but cuz i can't keep track of picks it's turned into a thumb-and-fingers thing. somehow i imagined the solution to this was "buy fingerpicks".

I think the sound of fingerpicks is very nice, much nicer than bare finger/nail on steel strings. It's also loud though, and I mostly practice at night, so I stuff a shirt in my guitar and play bare-fingered.

the problem i have with fingerpicks is how clumsey i feel with them. i also have less control tonally with the picks vs my fingers (which fyi for me is the difference between none and very little). and then the volume thing. i can't play loudly with my fingers, but i'm convinced i should figure that out. i was fortunate enough to hear this guy play a guitar i built and i'm always shocked at how much volume and projection the dude gets with just his fingertips (uses a thumbpick tho, iirc):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiQGO1YfEc

have you played with different size/material picks and with bending the metal ones to fit better? I find they're less clumsy with a good fit. I also prefer the metal to the plastic, in part because you can shape them.

yep, i have metal ones. nice low friction cobalt things. i am just clumsey. almost feels like playing with gloves on--probably just a matter of me adjusting to them.

Was supposed to go to a Brazilian guitar seminar today but don't think I can make it. If you are a thrifty/needy nylon string guitar player in NYC I might could donate my spot to you.

You are a nylon-string player, JR&B?

I own a nylon string and have been trying to play for the past two years so I guess the answer is yes, sort of.

I wish I could play with my fingers on guitar more, really just be able to arpeggiate much better in general. I'm pretty decent at some alternate picking, but I haven't even gotten to the point on bass I play with my fingers much. I do pick out some chords pretty well with a pick with alternate picking.

I've been growing and strengthening the nails on my right hand for fingerpicking purposes, but I've found this is impeding my bass playing. Is it possible to do both?

Good question.

You could always glue on fake nails for your guitar gigs and take them off for your bass gigs but I imagine that would grow tiresome.

j/k

Have a good book to recommend to beginners, if anyone is interested.

yeah sure!

Fingerstyle Guitar From Scratch, by Bruce Emery.

I will check it out. I often practice from this. But as the reviews say, you learn from playing the songs with very little instruction.

(Xp) Or Travis-Style Guitar From Scratch, by the same author.

looks intersting, thx

i'm a lefty, play guitar righty, and find it easier to play fingerstyle than with a pick. i played piano for many years before picking up guitar, which may have helped.

Lefty too. Have had a lot of trouble taming right hand since I came over from bass and at some point was playing mostly one finger at slow-medium tempos. And no ring finger obv.

I'll keep that in mind for guitar students, thanks. What are its strengths iyo?

Strengths of being a lefty? For fingerstyle guitar? Not aware of any.

Ha, no argument there! What are the strengths of the Emery book?

Emery books strengths are

• Stresses the need to develop a strong, independent thumb that will keep good time no matter what the other fingers are doing above it

• Helps the learner do this by taking a half-dozen or so old, familiar out-of-copyright tunes and cycling through them gradually adding more and more syncopation to the mix

• has a jokey conversational style, but one that is genuinely engaging and informative, instead of off putting and digressive.

• no staff notation, only tab

• aimed at folk- and country-based popular music styles, no classical études

re: Being a lefty: one might think it would help the left-hand technique but I haven't found it so- still often feels like I am trying to jam some of the fingers into too small a space and stretch the others more than they want to go. Also losing the groove on the right hand is embarrassing, I mean discouraging or can be, bringing the whole thing to grinding halt. Right hand fingers tend to collapse, although my understanding is proper technique is to keep the shape of the finger and do the work from the top knuckle, or something like that. Best way I have found to train my right hand fingers is not to 'prepare' the string but actually to 'bounce' a little, like it was a trampoline.

Pro-tip: in Portuguese common way to refer to a lefty is "canhoto," which can also mean "devil."

One other thing: in those books he says to use your left thumb to fret certain bass notes, like an F. Obviously I've seen people do this and I've seen it recommended elsewhere, in the Arnie Berle book for instance, but I can't physically do it, so end up having to play the F barre, which is my least favorite barre chord.

Since I learned trying to play from an axis bold as love songbook, I use my thumb for practically everything. It often causes trouble for me when playing more complicated finger style stuff bc my other fingers are often not arched enough to produce clear ringing notes. I'd suggest toughing it out with developing a good 6 string barred technique.

I have no idea what kind of students you have, whether they are part of some program at your university or private

I teach guitar lessons privately, from home and at a private music school. I'm pretty much fine for resources to teach classical. (The Royal Conservatory makes that pretty easy up here.) However, I can always use more resources for teaching non-classical students, i.e. the majority of guitar students. I mostly just use popular tunes to teach fingerpicking ("Landslide", "Dust in the Wind", "Freight Train", "Blackbird", etc); a good method book would be very useful.

I found this some time ago: http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/product/9781423487432-item.html?s_campaign=goo-PLATest&gclid=CMOOy9Tj9L0CFa5DMgodhj8Akw

It's for intermediate-level players but it's not bad at all, especially for its price.

No classical player frets notes with his or her thumb btw, except maybe as a special technique for some modern piece. I think you're fine without doing this.

I also use some of the Giuliani exercises just to build fingerpicking technique even for non-classical players.

Thanks. The two Amazon reviewers hated that Blues book but I'll take your word. Looked at the Giuliani book-one guy said get Pumping Nylon instead but hate both the title and the cover.

Not fingerstyle but this guy has some good stuff for jazz guitar. Plus he's Canadian. http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/beginners-guide-to-jazz-guitar
http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/category/front-page

Pumping Nylon is essential if you're learning classical guitar imo. You get the Giuliani exercises in that book, actually. I wouldn't buy a book that was just the Giuliani exercises.

Are you studying classical guitar? I'd seriously recommend seeing if you can find some of the Royal Conservatory's books (http://bookstore.rcmusic.ca/books.html?cat=14). They provide a gradual, progressive method that is used nearly universally across this country: repertoire, studies, technique. At the very least, the technique book would be useful. (Their theory method is also good if you want to learn the basics of classical theory.)

xpost Btw, I'm not an expert on blues guitar per se so those Amazon reviewers may well be right that there are better books. I liked that book because it's i) cheap and ii) easy to learn from for not-very-advanced players. I also have a book of 'authentic' Robert Johnson transcriptions but those are much harder.

Studying Brazilian/Jazz, so there is lots of overlap with classical.

Recently got a book called 50 Classical Guitar Pieces by Joseph Harris which seems to have a lot of nice intermediate arrangements, although I haven't really made a dent in it. Also, guy seems to think Galileo's father was his son.

Some of the arrangements really pretty easy but they all sound good, at least the ones I've attempted.

there is lots ofsome overlap with classical.

Just got this DVD ¡Guitarra! a documentary with Julian Bream playing everything in sight although in the first episode he just plays the vihuela. Just saw some 16th Century tablature. I guess you can watch this thing on YouTube if you want.

Lenny Breau documentary The Genius of Lenny Breau has gone off of Youtube because of you, but trailer you can still watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeFD1oz4BuY

Forgot to remove the 's' sorry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeFD1oz4BuY

But this Chet Atkins documentary that I was unaware of until just now is up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEJOily0AcA

Maybe documentary is the wrong word. PBS performance.

Version of "Come On In My Kitchen" in that book sounds more like John Lee Hooker than Robert Johnson but still kind of cool.

The book Guitar: An American Life by Tim Brookes, has an alternating chapters structure- I skipped the ones about him getting a guitar built by a luthier- but the historical stuff in the other chapters is very good.

Version of "Come On In My Kitchen" in that book sounds more like John Lee Hooker than Robert Johnson but still kind of cool.

The book I mentioned? Yeah, that's not authentic at all to Johnson's style but that's part of what makes it easier for students to learn from. The version of "Spoonful" is pretty good for getting a feel for the style and playing something that sounds decent.

Anyway, imo Pumping Nylon is great for anyone playing/learning nylon-string guitar.

Got that one too. How do you suggest I should approach it?

Wow, that was fast. Definitely read and try to apply the general principles in the "Dos and Don'ts", "Left Hand", and "Right Hand" section. (Maybe it's all familiar for you? The way they break things down was eye-opening for me. I had developed some horrible painful habits previously.) As exercises go, I'd recommend using ones that are relevant to the techniques you're most concerned about. "Odair's Favourite Drill" (on p 21 in my book) is good. I used the slur drills on pp 50-51, the "Synchronization" drill on p 65, and the Giuliani Studies that start on p 80. (I might just use sequential planting as opposed to the full plant/sequential plant method they suggest.) I'd recommend starting with just a couple of those studies at a time but I don't really know what your current level is.

My current level can probably best be described as "my mind is writing a check my fingers can't cash."

And thanks for the advice, I'll take a look.

Also, what do you do about nails?

Not sure what you're asking, sorry. Are you asking what a good nail shape is?

My current level can probably best be described as "my mind is writing a check my fingers can't cash."

If this is the case, you will probably find Pumping Nylon useful (if possibly gruelling).

Yes about the nails. Just saw guitar player filing his before he went on.

Just got back to my own neighborhood and stopped off to see some Latin Jazz but meanwhile Indian guitar master and composer Prasanna is playing behind singer doing "My Favorite Things."

Sorry wrong thread.

Note that I am not actually familiar with this guitarist except for the brief bit I heard tonight. I just saw those words on the website, probably should have put them in quotes.

Had another book before by an author I usually think is pretty good but in this case I was disappointed. More later.

Don't see "Spoonful" in that book, see "Stormy Monday."

Book I was disappointed in is Beginning Fingerstyle Blues Guitar by Arnie Berle and Mark Galbo. Exercises which take up most of the book are insufficiently bluesy. But there are six transcriptions at the back and the only one I really looked at, because it was the only sing I recognized, "32-20 Blues," is awesome.

Disappointed because I found another Arnie Berle book, Chords and Progressions For Jazz and Popular Guitar, very useful.

Remembered the main thing I've been working on recently is just to get strict mi alteration in the right hand. Previously I had been mixing in one finger stuff and/or raking.

I mean if a fingering was written out I would play that but otherwise sight-reading a melody I would play whatever I wanted.

OK, looking backward through the Berle blues book, I see that the I was being too harsh. The section on playing inversions of the 7th Chord is good, as is Picking-Hand techniques. Book starts to really pick up, as it were, around page 47, when Blue Notes are introduced.

I knew something was missing!

OK, think this PN is just what the doctor ordered. Thanks, Sund4r.

Without seeing your nails in person, or knowing more about what you're looking for, I'm hesitant to give specific advice on shaping them, beyond the general principles that you would find in books like Pumping Nylon. It's a pretty individual thing. Have you talked to a teacher?

You file with a regular nail file from the drugstore (ideally 'diamond dust') and buff with extremely fine sandpaper from the hardware store (no less than 500 grit).

There is some more info here, although I use the opposite thumbnail shape as this guy: http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/fingernails-on-classical-guitar/

Artificial nails and the glue that comes with them seem to really weaken my actual nails. I'm not sure why: I didn't have this problem in my early 20s.

Definitely practise scales with strict mi alternation if that's what you need to work on. If you can find the Royal Conservatory technique book, it has scalar exercise after scalar exercise that are designed to progressively build this technique.

Tbh, I don't remember if there were scales in PN. Will check when I get home.

This is useful. Thanks, more later.

(I love Prasanna btw.)

Quick question: two octave scales or three?

Prasanna has been playing recently at that place both as a leader and with some other projects I am interested in. I need to go back and check him out properly the next time.

Think he must have met some of the other musicians at that music school in India, what is it called? Oh, I see, Swarnabhoomi, and I see it says he is the President.

You didn't go to his workshop in Banff a few years back, did you?

Do you really think I need that Royal Conservatory book? Like to think I can figure out my own fingerings at this point- avoiding repeating a finger at all costs, as I've been told- and have some pattern books if I need them.

I was just mentioning it because it's a collection of good technical exercises that I'm familiar with that is readily available where I am. I'm quite sure there are others. Certainly, I can understand if you don't want to spend money on it, especially if it would be an import for you (idk if this is the case). If you want to work on stricter RH fingerings, then working through repetitive scales and patterns with these fingerings, with a metronome, seems like a good way to go about it, whatever source you're using for the material. But, honestly, I can't really say what you need with any certitude: I haven't seen you play.

I've never been to the Banff Centre, actually.

Sorry if the tone was a little snippy in the last reply. But yeah, any good technique book will probably be useful.

Quick question: two octave scales or three?

For practising right-hand technique? Both could work. If you haven't been doing them a lot, it would probably make sense to start with 2-octave scales before working up to the longer ones. Obviously, some scales, e.g. C, will be easier to do as 2-octave scales.

I didn't find your tone particularly snippy, I'm used to you by now:) Your advice in general has been very helpful so far, really, thanks for taking the time. Now that I think about it, I did order a music book from Canada once. The Jazz Bass Line Book, by Mike Downes. Recommended highly by another Canadian bass player, Don Thompson.

Prasanna is no longer associated with that school.

Was assigned one of those Giuliani exercises this week.

Sorry, étude not exercise.

It's Merle Travis's birthday today, so I would like you all to spend an extra half hour at least on your Travis picking.

yes sir!

object lesson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8LQ1UQO8k

Just came across a discussion this and can't figure out what to make of it: https://www.classicalguitarcorner.com/an-argument-against-memorization/

As someone who cannot read music, after reading that, I now feel even more like a total hack when I pick up a guitar. Cheers.

I dream of being good enough to consider myself a hack.

I've never been to the Banff Centre, actually.

The ever-challenging thing is remembering these classical etudes: which left hand and right hand finger is doing what. Do much better if I figure out what the harmony is and use that to keep track of where I am supposed to be.

Guess I just going to follow Sund4r's advice on the other thread and put the metronome on super slow and then inch it up when possible.

Inch worm
Inch worm
Measuring the marigolds

That's generally good but esp with classical, it can also sometimes help to remember to avoid 'broken record' practising. I'm trying to make sure I apply 'deliberate practice' as described here: https://lifehacker.com/5939374/a-better-way-to-practice . It can make a big difference. It helps to focus on a little bit (e.g. a phrase) at a time, identify specific problem areas, then target those (by slowing down, IDing the block, then inching up after fixing it).

Well, I did for quite a bit until I got fatigued and I stopped :) Thanks for the article. I read the Ericsson book mentioned there and recommend it. I believe Ericsson uses the term "Purposeful Practice."

I used to talk about this stuff at lunch with a guy who plays the cello who would discuss it in terms very similar to those in that article. He also had a really good story about how one Hungarian pianist practiced, György something, Sándor, maybe, but I have to see if I can remember how it went.

I can play "Bron-yr-aur' in glorious CACGCE

cool.

Sund4r, debating whether to email you a link to this piece I am trying to learn and ask whether you have played it or have opinions about the fingering.

Feel free. I can try to get to it on the weekend.

Sent

Must confess I have never been able to sight-read - indeed can't read at all - after decades of periodic attempts of varying seriousness.

That said, I started with a nylon-stringed classical guitar, mainly because my mother had one around the house. She was an old folkie type, and I guess in the 60s it was pretty common to learn guitar that way. Nylon is kinder to fingers. I think I worked clumsily through some books of fingerstyle tab. Paul Simon, Suzanne Vega, Clapton, Gilberto.

I still play fingerstyle on my mother's old guitar sometimes. Occasionally I will do something fingerstyley on steel-stringed acoustic. I tend to like guitars with wider nuts, because the spacing accommodates fingerstyle playing better.

But I've never quite gotten the hang of fingerstyle on electric. It's so quiet compared to picking, and accommodating that drop in volume is difficult if I want to do both inside a given song, or even within a given gig.

For a long time I had this weird stubborn thing about not picking with my ring finger, only using the thumb index and middle. Lately I've finally reincorporated the ring finger again and it really opens up a lot of possibilities, not sure what I was on about.

RIP Tony Acosta of Luthier Music: http://classicalguitarmagazine.com/luthier-music-founder-string-maker-tony-acosta-passes-away-at-77/

I posted this upthread but it got ate by the code, just a local braddah doing an excellent arrangement of "Maori Brown Eyes" (cheating a little with the thumb pick):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLeqnEDF7jU

This is still one of my go-to's when I get a chance to play.

Cool.

This guitarist named Jake Reichbart has posted over 400 videos of fingerstyle arrangements of various well-known tunes, watched a few and they are reasonably well done.

I love finger style guitar but infinitely prefer the old strings, mahogany-top, small-bodied sound over the bright, chiming sound that so many finger style players employ

Yeah, know what you mean

I just like Nick Drake is all and early Bruce Cockburn too and although I appreciate a Pierre Bensusan et al I like the intimacy of a parlour guitar or a nylon string!

has there been anyone inspired by michael hedges's innovations that wasn't completely boring and soulless? aerial boundaries moves me but it seems like the only thing people took from him was the surface level slapping and tapping

Why are they still called nylon string guitars when the bottom three are metal and the top three are some kind of polymer?

I thought nylon was a polymer, no?

Yeah, but I think they often use fluorocarbon instead. Sorry, should have been more specific.

https://www.gearank.com/guides/nylon-classical-guitar-strings

Most of those still seem to use nylon for the treble strings? I thought the basses are usually made of a nylon core wound with metal. Interestingly, though, Savarez Alliance are probably my favourite and they do seem to use some kind of carbon fibre for the trebles.

Unrelated but I recently switched to guy-based strings on my violin and it sounds amazing (but I have to tune it up a lot more— apparently the strings last linger tho?)

*gut *longer

Wrt fingerstyle, a local know-it-all told me to anchor my pinky instead of “floating” and I cannot, and I also don’t think it’s necessary? Idk.

With fingerstyle guitar?? That is bad advice.

Afaik, classical guitar teachers have been advising against anchoring the little finger of the right hand on the body of the guitar at least since I was an undergraduate. It reduces flexibility and introduces unnecessary strain. I'm more forgiving of it than many, esp considering that many great guitarists of the past did it or something like it, and might occasionally slip into doing it myself (although usually when using a pick). If you need an anchor, just resting the fingers on the strings you are not using works great. If you're looking for pointers on technique, I'll recommend Tennant's Pumping Nylon again.

I can't think of a situation where I'd anchor my pinky on the guitar's body when fingerpicking tbh.

leo kottke's RSI is the argument against anchoring, but I still find it helpful when ploughing through v rhythmic picking-pattern grooves

There are certainly people who do it but it is definitely not a practice that someone needs to be told to do if they have no inclination towards it.

Parkening playing a fast rhythmic picking pattern with no anchor: https://youtu.be/5YdPvM_xZg4

Close-up around 0:25

it's a q of what's easiest/realistic rather than humanly possible

i don't & have never felt the need to.

Fgti finds it easier not to anchor! I'm saying that is not only fine, but probably better. xp

If you want to anchor anything maybe it should be the thumb, like a bass player might

Not if the bass player doesn't want tendonitis.

I've never heard of a fingerpicker anchoring the thumb on the body of the guitar? Ergonomics aside, any fingerpicking style I can think of requires the thumb to be available to play bass lines.
xp

I was more thinking of resting the thumb on a bass string in between bass notes when possible

(xp)
C’mon, lots of bass players anchor. I almost never do so maybe I shouldn’t comment.

Love any story about Christopher Parkening.

Resting the thumb or fingers on unused strings between notes, when there is time, is what I do.

It also helps to mute those strings when they should not ring.

i anchor my pinky sometimes, and always understood it to be a bad habit. I also fret the bass string with my thumb, thanks jimi.

It also helps to mute those strings when they should not ring.

Although didn’t notice G making D ring nearly as strong, or the A making the E.

I use too many tunings. I only have maybe forty guitar-based songs but thirteen tunings all told :(

Sonic Goon - Experimental Flamboyant Tie Included

I haven't fucked with guitar in a while now, but I used to be pretty good at basic fingerstyle stuff. With respect to pinky-resting, if it's good enough for Daniel Bachman, it's good enough for me.
https://glasstire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/daniel-bachman.jpg?x37511

Some people, Lenny Breau comes to mind, actually play with the RH pinky. Think its letter is ‘c’

Apparently he also anchored it so...
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28278-how-did-lenny-breau-do-that

Sorry for using a fellow Canadian against you guys

We claim him was he, really?

Born in Maine to Acadian parents, family moved to Canada when he was seven. His dad recorded for the Banff label, and Lenny taught Randy Bachman, how Canadian can you get?

He even had a show on CBC Winnipeg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44PDpwYpSEU

Did I mention that his first professional recording was with members of The Band?

Anchoring is bad news, generally, and lots of professional bassists have problems with their hands and wrists. I touch my thumb on the string lower than the one I am playing or touch the body on my acoustic bass guitar when I play the B string. I have a full-length thumb rest on my main electric which I really like for playing on the B string; something like that would be cool on the acoustic, but it would most assuredly change the sound of the instrument in not-good ways (mine is a luthier-built gorgeous thing I purchased from an estate that, unlike 90% of acoustic bass guitars, actually functions as an acoustic instrument -- it'd be pushing $4000 if I had it built today, and it did not cost me even close to that)).

Check out my bro Jackie's right hand -- she's touching the body (actually the pickguard here -- that's not her guitar, and her guitars don't have floating pickguards) with her ring finger, but there's no pressure on the finger -- the hand is floating and ready to move around as she needs it to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRn75qFWyhE

I'm in the anchor camp... also in the "you only need 2 fingers" camp!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUK8emiWabU

So easy but effective (& topical):

(c/p for timestamp): youtu.be/Mu9adyYkIQY?t=123

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9adyYkIQY

I feel like I suffer from some extreme version of the 80-20 rule, maybe 90-10 or 95-5, where the last 5% of learning any song, where I can play without error most of the time, takes 20 times as long as my entire practice time up till that point. Or it's like a zenoan paradox where perfection (or a reasonable simulation of) is always an infinite number of steps away.

Suggestions for how to get over this are welcome - I have one idea, which is to stop endlessly practising the same songs with diminishing returns, and try new songs, but harder than the ones I already (can't) do. Suggestions for those also welcome, my current level of inability is somewhere around Don't Think Twice It's Alright, or Never Going Back Again.

I can't really say without seeing you play but, if general consistency is the fundamental problem, there are probably some basic issues with technique that could be addressed, possibly by working on focused exercises with a teacher. Playing progressively more difficult pieces is unlikely to help with that, I am guessing (although it may keep you engaged and challenged if you want to let go of the goal of consistently accurate playing). It might actually help to learn comparable or easier pieces and focus on making them consistent and just trying to learn faster(while also working on technique)? Have you tried "Country Roads"? The basic progression is easy but getting the picking totally right at tempo can take a little work.

I have the same problem so I have been taking virtual lockdown lessons from someone on this bor4d, someone on this thre4d (references provided upon request) and it seems to be helping a lot, although don't want to count my chickens, etc.
(xp)

(Lack of) focus is definitely a problem, and having never had a lick of professional instruction I'm sure technique is too. Unfortunately though everyone else seems to have oodles of free time in lockdown, having kids at home all day means a proportional increase in mess, tidying, and evening fatigue. Two drawing classes a week (with old friends so added social benefit) is about all I can squeeze in, and half of my wife's evenings are taken up by a waking baby so she wouldn't be a fan of me disappearing any more!

The theory behind trying more difficult pieces is to make the other ones seem easier but yes I can see how that might not improve consistency. Also it's my fretting that's worse then my picking, but I'll try what you say with Country Roads, thanks.

Gives Country Roads a go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_vt1KIV8zQ

I get bored when I can kinda play something and don't push to be fluent. around the same level as you btw so bookmarking for tips

Haha. Depending on how you feel about sappy middle-aged Clapton, "Tears in Heaven" might not be bad for an easy-ish piece where there is room to work on fretting-hand clarity. It could also just help to practise changing arpeggio patterns with a metronome, focusing on the specific movements that give you grief and work slowly.

*working

Somebody posted this on jazz guitar group on Friendbook over the weekend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0zLjeqbTuw

Thanks, that's a good breakdown of how it works and I'll refer to it when teaching. I do it intuitively; it helps to see it analysed and explained like that. It might help to be more conscious of it when playing really fast and busy things. Now I need to work out how to do it on piano.

Why is my D-string always the first to go? Oh, I think I know why. I feel a little weird because the guy whose company manufactured my strings passed away last year and I only have a few packs left- there is a picture of Paco de Lucia on the cover of the cover of the packets! That guy was kind of a NYC institution. Feel like I should post about him here. Believe he worked for Lufthansa and played for their minor league soccer team here before he decided to go into the string-manufacturing business.

I can't find it in the internet but I was told some reasonably big name classical and flamenco guitar players performed at a memorial for him.

His store used to be right next to Birdland on 44th, real quirky old school store, with some weird golden tourist gimcracks in the window, might as well have been Buddhas, don't know who ever bought them, until he sold it, think he owned the building, not sure, and moved to 24th Street.

I bought this cheap but playable classical guitar from him, maybe I should have bought a more expensive one!

https://classicalguitarmagazine.com/luthier-music-founder-string-maker-tony-acosta-passes-away-at-77/

Maybe I already posted all this upthread, if so sorry.

No, doesn't look like he owned the building.

Did so! https://www.voanews.com/arts-culture/tony-acosta-artist-behind-guitar-strings

This seems to have been quoted in the first obit I link but has some other stuff they didn't quote as well as pictures: http://www.juliacrowe.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/5-07lfny.pdf

I see, I posted the obit when he passed but not the other links and didn’t type anything either except his name and the name of his business.

TS Nails vs. Fingers
https://rmclassicalguitar.com/tarrega/

Another one of my neighbors weighs in, although he has since moved:
https://www.adamrafferty.com/2012/03/19/guitar-right-hand-technique-nails-vs-flesh/

Hm, doesn't seem like there's much there in the way of modern classical players who don't play with nails? Somewhat interesting that Sor didn't play with nails, although I doubt his instrument was the same as the guitars we play now - were strings still made of gut then? The Tarrega thing is interesting, though.

Doesn't one of those links say Pepe Romero had his (Thornton) students play with flesh for a year or two and then gave them the choice afterwards?

Here's another discussion I just glanced at: https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=121220

Didn't see that. Romero def plays with nails himself: https://www.facebook.com/peperomeroguitar/photos/getting-my-nails-ready-for-another-double-concert-night-in-hamburg-elbphilharmon/10158317321822782/

More discussion here. Seems to say that Pepe's father made him play without nails for a while but not so clear that Pepe did this with his own students. https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=81344

I've heard that for years too. My friend asked Scott Tennant (who was Pepe's student) in a master class if Pepe ever had his students play without nails, and he said not that he knew.

The OP in the Delcamp thread ("Modernising No-Nails Playing") is the same guy who wrote the first piece you linked. This seems to be a hobbyhorse for him, although NB that afaict he often doesn't play modern nylon-stringed classical guitars at concert pitch. (He posted a video of him doing so but the point was that he commonly does play historical instruments, e.g. lutes, gut strings, low tunings).

Tbc, I don't push nails on anyone who isn't planning to play classical guitar at a fairly serious level. I don't think there's really much of a debate within that context, though? xp

Oops. Sorry for not looking more closely.

I've finally started getting my head around fingerpicking and am quietly excited about how much I've progressed in the last six weeks (from utter simpleton to bungling halfwit, but I'll take it). I'm kinda clumsy and, as mentioned upthread, get bored quickly so rarely make it to mastery before moving on but hell I'm enjoying myself. Inveterate nail-biter so flesh over nails but intrigued to try the other way.

Good stuff. Started looking into theory?

anyone have any good resources for self-teaching fingerstyle? i found the nails v flesh stuff itt very interesting b/c i too am an inveterate nail-biter who forced myself to grow some right-hand nails for a while, but found them to be as tricky for developing a good technique as flesh is.

right now i mess around with some bert jansch tunes and have toyed with some of the easier fahey stuff but i'd love to take a more general approach than just learning songs if there were a way to do so.

Hey Sund4r - I think it'll be part of the process. I've got an intuitive (ish) understanding of the neck of the guitar but only slowly re-learning from scratch, making my way around triads and scales etc. It's amazing how much of this business is about engagement; simply practising and being with your instrument and how that leads to leaps of progress and understanding. That book you recommended elsewhere looks great.

Call all destroyer, speaking very much as a beginner, I've been using a fairly scattershot approach to it - finding videos, trying different things. I'd totally appreciate a more 'definitive' approach if anyone has one!

I play very chordally, and tend to think in terms of movable chord shapes and easily located arpeggios.

This approach makes right-handed picking accuracy less important - if all the notes I am fretting are potentially "right" - or, right enough by virtue of being in the appropriate key or chord - then I worry less about accidentally playing a "wrong" note.

(This may be because I am left-handed but play as a righty.)

Although I don't use it consistently, I find the CAGED system is very helpful for opening up the fretboard. When you start with cowboy chords you tend to over-rely on them.

The CAGED concept allows you to say, "welp, I'm already up here on the tenth fret and need to play an Amaj7. There isn't time to go all the way back down to my usual Amaj7, so I will find a voicing for that chord that is bear where I am."

Yr true CAGED-heads can associate the chord forms with scales and modes. The normal book for learning this is Fretboard Logic. Much of it is over my head (and overkill for my style of music), but it's pretty well-regarded.

That is *near* where I am.

Tl;dr: if your fretting hand is doing its job, then you have a bit more leeway in terms of what you pluck.

you might already know this, but using your thumb to fret the top string in barre chords is essential

as for nails vs flesh, i gave up on nails and developed a more percussive style with my fingers. there are also "open" finger picks which are kinda the best of both worlds

Can that thumb-fretiting thing be down with every kind of neck? Don't think so.

maybe not a classical guitar? it was my understanding that fingerstyle generally referred to steel string acoustic

I get bored every once in a while and try playing upside down just to really reformat my brane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUK8emiWabU

So many years of conditioning makes it hard to break routine but it helps rediscover playing by simply turn the instrument over, switching hands and unlearning habits.

I'm just kinda ambidextrous yet not nearly enough to really be able to just let it all come out smoothly and effortlessly.

I pretty much never thumb-fret, partly because I keep hearing that good form requires the thumb to be on the back of the neck, and that the overhanging thimb indicates sloppiness.

I do make exceptions for songs where there is a specific bass run on the low E, and the thumb is most convenient fingering, because reasons.

An example is "Driver 8." I think I have used my thumb for the bass notes of "Driver 8."

Specifically D with an F# in the bass

It is completely possible to play barre chords (xp or inversions) without ever thumb-fretting ftr.

Which songs would you recommend learning as a progression to get to:
https://tommyemmanuel.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/chet-atkins-walk-dont-run2.pdf

Sund4r is correct that thumb-fretting is never a necessity. There are a few situations where it might makes l sense (for me, the D with F# in the bass a la Driver 8). But if pressed I could use a different fingering, no prob

Interesting. If Elizabeth Cotten is playing upside down à la Jimi Hendrix, then she is not thumbing her bass notes.

if a la Jimi Hendrix, she would have reversed the string order though

Oh right. In fact that is what it looks like she was doing.

Do people actually play fully upside down?

a left-handed high school friend exclusively played his epiphone SG fully upside down. it freaked me out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musicians_who_play_left-handed#Left-handed_with_strings_backwards

from Dick Dale to Gruff Rhys

My brain can't do the mirroring properly so I couldn't see that Elizabeth Cotten was playing fully upside down.

Lol, I was going to say something rude to you but I'm happy we're now all on the same page.

From Sufjan's list: Laetitia_Sadier

I had no idea, and I'd seen guitar-era Stereolab more than a few times!

So it seems like she is playing the melody with the thumb, the bass with her index and then the thumb is also doing the comping.

yep, just a "simple" claw with anchor, but both fingers have 4-string range.

There's a pretty interesting music youtube guy called Benn Jordan who plays upside down guitar - he was given a right handed guitar as a left handed child and no-one ever intervened to let him know the strings were the wrong way round. By the time he found out it was too late to change. Watching him fingerpicking made my brain go a bit weird

https://youtu.be/7n5Rdt8cOQk

Which songs would you recommend learning as a progression to get to:
https://tommyemmanuel.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/chet-atkins-walk-dont-run2.pdf

Do you play any bass + melody stuff already? Can you play "Freight Train" (whether upside down, right side up, with or without thumb fretting, etc)?

i used to be able to do a mean Dust in the Wind

Silent Lucidity or gtfo

Been playing since the 80s and I still can't cleanly play a bar 7th chord on the A string or a bar minor chord on the E string worth a chud. I just cannot get that note on the bar between the fretted notes clean.

I'm not ready for 'the claw' or anything, but I can get the picking hand down some now. I can't keep callouses on my picking hand, which is the reason I never got away from playing bass with a pick.

Albert King and Doyle Bramhall II both also did/do the upside town strung guitar. I saw Bramhall up close at a small club in Lexington a few years ago and it was really wild to watch him play.

Since October, I've got my head around Travis picking, have learned* how to play Don't Think Twice and The Boxer and have been messing with some mental Nick Drake tunings - notably BEBEBE - and can do clumsy, ragged impressions of Northern Sky and The Fly.

*learned is always a fairly loose term; mostly I still play like an arthritic rhinoceros.

nice, Don't Think Twice was one of the first I learned and it's got some really pretty chord changes in it

Where's a good place to go from there, man alive?

it's got some really pretty chord changes in it
I love the 'walks' from the Am to F and D7.

Have you ever heard the John Fahey tune Orinda-Moraga? That's a nice one that sounds harder than it is, although the nuances can be tricky. Good intro to fingerpicking in open tuning as well. A lot less left hand action than Don't Think Twice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hHXJXx0-gA

I've been working up a version of Mississippi John Hurt's Let the Mermaids Flirt with me, maybe 75% based on his version but with a few of my own ideas mixed in.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJmGWLJB3Nn/