http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wexS7X3I1SA/U5C_kKnFDHI/AAAAAAAADtM/7MFdNTL4yEA/s1600/Peter+O
― sarahell, Wednesday, 3 August 2016 04:30 (seven years ago) link
Executions serve an important role in society.
Bring back sumptuary laws.
There are too many lazy people.
Kill the weak.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 3 August 2016 04:32 (seven years ago) link
War is an honorable pasttime
― sarahell, Wednesday, 3 August 2016 04:34 (seven years ago) link
People who are against spanking children don't understand the evil inherent in human nature.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 3 August 2016 04:35 (seven years ago) link
this got dark v quickly
― Mordy, Wednesday, 3 August 2016 04:44 (seven years ago) link
The Western literary canon has substantial value.
Free verse poetry is less interesting than formal poetry.
Photography is a lesser art and should not be celebrated outside facebook pages.
No good literature has been produced since WW2.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 3 August 2016 04:48 (seven years ago) link
fewer and fewer schools are teaching cursive these days, and that's a real shame
mainstream rap has had a net negative influence on the quality of American chartpop
comics may or may not be a serious art form, but graphic novels really don't belong on 'greatest novels of all time' lists
most people in this world are feebs/children/psychopaths who will revert to arson/scalping/pillaging the moment they're freed from the strictures of organized religion. evangelical atheism is one of the greatest threats to the stability of western civilization, and the world will not be safe until atheism has been scaled down to a Masonic/Rosicrucian-style secret society with a maximum global membership of ≈100,000 carefully vetted rationalist supermen
― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Thursday, 4 August 2016 04:29 (seven years ago) link
if i can make it to a church before capture i should be given sanctuary
― the Zenga bus is coming (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 4 August 2016 08:03 (seven years ago) link
british imperialism was better than most of the alternatives
individualism is in many respects v good
― ogmor, Thursday, 4 August 2016 11:28 (seven years ago) link
i've got nothing else i can think of, you people are monsters tbh
'cept unregistered maybe, can get behind the secret atheism bit
― the Zenga bus is coming (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 4 August 2016 11:35 (seven years ago) link
brown sugar runs rings around superfoods as a topping for oatmeal.
― estela, Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:13 (seven years ago) link
i have brooks brothers glasses
― esempiu (crüt), Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:14 (seven years ago) link
Compulsory parade attendance.
― how's life, Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:27 (seven years ago) link
yoga is bullshit
― sarahell, Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:14 (seven years ago) link
military technology is pretty cool
― brimstead, Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:30 (seven years ago) link
I am this guy IRL
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Gb%2B7TzrEL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:31 (seven years ago) link
it is obnoxious for boys under the age of 13 to have long hair, and an indication that their parents are overindulgent.
today, while at the supermarket, I saw a boy of no more than 10 with a mohawk and felt genuinely incensed.
― soref, Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:31 (seven years ago) link
i like to open a door for a lady
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:33 (seven years ago) link
lol, there is definitely this thing that happens in Brooklyn where I see certain longhaired pre-teens and I can just *tell* that they have skateboard dads who encourage them to have it, like it's not even rebellious but actually DL striving by the parents.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:33 (seven years ago) link
I like women.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:36 (seven years ago) link
I don't append "cis" to the male box that I check off on every form.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 4 August 2016 20:37 (seven years ago) link
Cannot abide visible bra straps, even when fashionable
Dogs are outside pets.
― Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 5 August 2016 01:05 (seven years ago) link
Tattoos.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 5 August 2016 01:08 (seven years ago) link
an individual's actions does have something to do w/ their success
not all cultures are equally wonderful and some are bad enough that they should be discouraged
life could be hellish and for many ppl it is so if yours isn't some gratitude is probably in order
― Mordy, Friday, 5 August 2016 05:36 (seven years ago) link
nb 1 + 3 might not be internally consistent
Femmephobia is way less useful as a critical concept than misogyny
Self-care is necessary but not thereby radically oppositional
Couching leftist projects in terms of resistance to neoliberalism rather than to capitalism risks a lot of reformist implications
― one way street, Friday, 5 August 2016 05:52 (seven years ago) link
(Not that femmephobia can't be useful in order to talk about, say, biases in specific queer spaces, but it can mystify the conditions that butch and gnc women actually face if applied too generally.)
― one way street, Friday, 5 August 2016 05:57 (seven years ago) link
watching grown adults discussing rae sremmurd like it was literature is to behold the end of art
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:31 (seven years ago) link
that's not a "reveal" per se
― Tom Watson in a fedora (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:32 (seven years ago) link
I forgot imago had some sort of Sremm beef. Why so much hate?
― emil.y, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:33 (seven years ago) link
Marxism is dumb and bad.
Capitalist liberal democracy is the end point of Western civilization, it will never be superseded by a higher/better form of social organization, will only end through collapse.
Men should not have facial hair and people in general should not have messy hair.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:37 (seven years ago) link
xps i don't recall saying that you can hear a soulja boy's influence on chaucer
― esempiu (crüt), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:38 (seven years ago) link
lol "a soulja boy." the soulja boy's tale
― esempiu (crüt), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:39 (seven years ago) link
currently at peak hair and beard, this will probably only end by collapse too tbh
sremm beef = just watch their latest video, 'set the roof' and listen to the lyrics, they're just the worst people in earth, i fucking despise literally everything they're doing, it isn't even abrasive in an interesting way
lol crut, one for old-skool ilx that
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:46 (seven years ago) link
hir wese y manne ful cranke, tellynge
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:49 (seven years ago) link
Femmephobia is way less useful as a critical concept than misogynySelf-care is necessary but not thereby radically oppositionalCouching leftist projects in terms of resistance to neoliberalism rather than to capitalism risks a lot of reformist implications― one way street, Thursday, August 4, 2016 10:52 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink]
― one way street, Thursday, August 4, 2016 10:52 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink]
looooool
― he mea ole, he kanaka lapuwale (sciatica), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:52 (seven years ago) link
women's sports are, in general, less exciting versions of men's sports
― have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:52 (seven years ago) link
http://allproudamericans.com/paimages/does-duck-and-cover-really-work.jpg
― Tom Watson in a fedora (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:56 (seven years ago) link
I'll watch women's tennis from time to time but yeah
― frogbs, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 17:57 (seven years ago) link
There are too many things that I massively disagree with posted here for it to be worth a fight on any one of them. I'm just wondering why the 'loool' at ows? Because those aren't really conservative standpoints? They kind of are in comparison to a lot of current radical discourse (I agree with all of them, though not entirely with the latter, but again, I kind of feel this thread is meant to be a dumping ground not a discussion ground).
― emil.y, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:04 (seven years ago) link
― have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 10:52 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
sexual dimorphism of humans def means that a lot of sports are more exciting to watch when men are playing them but otoh a lot of women's sports are less commercialized and therefore less likely to suffer from rampant PED use endemic to men's sports and therefore likely to be more of a clean competition
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:08 (seven years ago) link
also crowds at woman's sports tend to be less shitty
(emil.y i was laughing at the extreme relativity necessary to consider those "conservative opinions." i assumed they were posted tongue in cheek so thought i was laughing along with one way street, not at them, and wasn't critiquing the positions themselves)
― he mea ole, he kanaka lapuwale (sciatica), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:13 (seven years ago) link
Can't speak for sciatica but I lol'ed at ows' post bc it requires some, like, wicked fractal definition of conservatism within the queer anticapotalist left. but I get how all those opinions could be uncool rn
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:15 (seven years ago) link
liberalism as many of my friends practice it is like a shitty religion that i want no part of.
they think of other people as needing to be saved, by them. they make penance with speech acts, not real action. they live their lives in constant guilt. they live in cities that are only differentiated from other cities by being huge destinations for wealth, then they disavow that wealth while continuing to partake in the lifestyle it provides. they blame rich people for all the evils of the world while ignoring that they are the 1%. they prescribe how other people should be living their own lives.they say things that have no meaning other than to reveal to others that they are members in this very sensitive club of good people. it's nothing but performative.
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:15 (seven years ago) link
Lol got xp'd
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:16 (seven years ago) link
I must admit I like Republican President Dwight D. "Ike" Eisenhower. But chances are, you also like Ike. Maybe everybody likes Ike.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:18 (seven years ago) link
xps to sciatica and flopson - yeah, both of those reasons are basically fair enough. I think I inhabit so many circles where these are topics for fierce debate that I took it w/ a completely straight face!
― emil.y, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:19 (seven years ago) link
― imago,
links?
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:19 (seven years ago) link
― Philip Nunez,
best Cold War president if you look past his championing of covert ops
just watch their latest video, 'set the roof' and listen to the lyrics, they're just the worst people in earth, i fucking despise literally everything they're doing
Lj on rap always sounds like thinly veiled racist uncle 'i like blk ppl...who pull up their pants' lol
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:23 (seven years ago) link
There was some self-directed irony in my post (like, as a queer trans woman and a marxist, I realize I occupy a different milieu than some of you), but I do actually hold the positions in it, and they're generally unpopular in radical circles; but as e.mily said, this thread seems "like a dumping ground not a discussion ground," so I'll stay out of the rae sremmurd discourse.
― one way street, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:30 (seven years ago) link
*emil.y, I mean
― one way street, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:31 (seven years ago) link
if hating on vicious misogyny, shit beats and two little soi-disant alpha male fuckers is racist then
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:32 (seven years ago) link
never listened to rae sremmurd but i see his/her/their name everywhere
just read the lyrics to set the off and stopped here:
Now let's fill up her head and let's see if she chokes
it's fashionable to call anything (thinly veiled) racism these days (oh my conservative opinion i guess)
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:40 (seven years ago) link
Bill O'Reilly also quotes lyrics as if they made sense removed from arrangements.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:44 (seven years ago) link
you just wrote hating "on."
if you are comparing me to bill o reilly you should say so instead of hinting at it
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:46 (seven years ago) link
I think I did!
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:46 (seven years ago) link
[Pre-Hook: Swae Lee]Flash her with cash, had to spazz on the waiterShe fucked up my order three times in a row, woahI'm good on gas, I just filled up my tankNow let's fill up her head and let's see if she chokes
so the double entendre is not done on purpose i guess is what you're saying
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:47 (seven years ago) link
i don't actually think ur racist lj you just an fyi you sound like coded white supremacist
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:48 (seven years ago) link
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 7:46 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
and no, you didn't
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:49 (seven years ago) link
yeah I quite like rap and rap culture so I appropriate its vernacular sometimes. doesn't mean I don't detest some of its practitioners though
and they're not as bad as anthony kiedis I guess
I see you flopson, I'm better about this shot these days but sremm are p much in the sweet spot of do not get
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:50 (seven years ago) link
yeah idk they're like a fabulous marriage of Descendants and Kool Keith. They get away with their snottiness and for the moment they don't sound anomic or evil. But they can't keep it up forever and I can imagine hating them like The Weeknd and late Kanye.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:53 (seven years ago) link
doesn't mean I don't detest some of its practitioners though
― imago, Wednesday, August 17, 2016 7:50 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is the thing
people take a band you don't like and make a lot of unwarranted generalizations about you
theres tonnes of good hip hop and rap that reads different than rae sremmurd
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 18:58 (seven years ago) link
nah it's all good -- we're just zingin' late afternoon
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:00 (seven years ago) link
zingin on hump day
ugh
s'all good
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:01 (seven years ago) link
let's get back on topic
courses aimed at bright/curious state-schooled kids, such as those I help to run a few times a year, are not elitist
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:03 (seven years ago) link
I think my uncool conservative belief is on a parallel with LJ's statement there -- I think drawing a line dividing quality work from mass market pulp and calling one side "literature" has its place
the line moves all the time, though, and things jump back and forth
― mh, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:06 (seven years ago) link
spelling your band name backwards is straightup stupid
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:09 (seven years ago) link
They get away with their snottiness and for the moment they don't sound anomic or evil. But they can't keep it up forever
This was basically my take on Odd Future when they first came out, but weren't they actually kids at the time whereas Rae Sremmurd are like proper adults? I like RS musically, but honestly I haven't really paid much attention to their lyrics, so... eh. I kind of don't want to go down that route but just imagine I wrote an incredibly long and interesting post about the conflicts and intertwinement of ingroup lexical production, culture, Cannibal Corpse and exclusion/alienation of marginalised groups. Seriously, this hypothetical post was the most brilliant and incisive thing you've ever read about lyrics and it's changed your worldview forever.
(sorry for continuing to turn this thread into 'Rae Sremmurd: Classic or Dud')
― emil.y, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:10 (seven years ago) link
Fair enough. Cannibal Corpse have shit beats too though
― imago, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:23 (seven years ago) link
rock has a rich and deep history of making garbage music (another uncool conservative opinion!)
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:28 (seven years ago) link
the internet can't accommodate both privacy and anonymity, and given a choice between the two i pick privacy
it will never be ok with me when people use "unique" to mean "uncommon"
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:58 (seven years ago) link
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 12:37 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
You know the Marxist view *is* that Capitalism will collapse, right?
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:10 (seven years ago) link
permitting female facial hair is a nice lacuna in jim's conservatism there, rebounds to his credit
― le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:14 (seven years ago) link
xp. I am very familiar with Marxism. This is probably the problem! Grew up in a house filled with books on Marxist theory. Literally was at a table with friends of my parents and an uncle who are all Trotskyists a week ago.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:15 (seven years ago) link
just need to repost this
nah it's all good -- we're just zingin' late afternoon― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 7:00 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 7:00 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― bagging area (map), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:16 (seven years ago) link
wasn't the marxist view that capitalism collapses after we have 3D printers that really work, and don't just make smelly, knobby statues of webcomic characters?
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:16 (seven years ago) link
nah that's gene roddenberry, easily confused
― le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:18 (seven years ago) link
they blame rich people for all the evils of the world while ignoring that they are the 1%.
never realized that liberals are 1% of the population
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:27 (seven years ago) link
I think you need like $420K household income to be in the top 1% in the US. Maybe sleeping bag has a lot of rich liberal friends, but I doubt it.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:47 (seven years ago) link
global 1% I MEANT
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:50 (seven years ago) link
barb is overrated
― Immediate Follower (NA), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:53 (seven years ago) link
that is my uncool conservative belief
Maybe sleeping bag has a lot of rich liberal friends, but I doubt it.― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:47 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
What does this even mean, I grew up in south fl and many of my friends moved to new York, San Fran, Boston, so... Yes? Arent u a lawyer in NYC? Guessing u do too?
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:55 (seven years ago) link
I grew up in south fl
really?!
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:56 (seven years ago) link
(maybe I asked you already)
Isn't like half of the United States in the global 1%? And also isn't that term kind of meaningless without accounting for cost of living?
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:58 (seven years ago) link
I am a lawyer in NYC and my household does not earn anything close to $420K and neither do most of my friends afaik.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 20:59 (seven years ago) link
Broward bb
Xp 'isn't half the US...' yes that is my point!
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:00 (seven years ago) link
So basically almost no one in the US has the right to have anything to say about poverty or class because they're not living off potatoes?
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:01 (seven years ago) link
I think that was my uncool belief stated upthread.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:02 (seven years ago) link
They don't have the right to prescribe solutions for other ppl that they themselves don't/wouldn't abide by, is more how I see it
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:03 (seven years ago) link
Like if yr willing to make excuses for not being more generous to other ppl bc 'cost of living' isn't that the same as saying I can't give u a raise bc 'cost of operating the thing that provides yr (and many other ppls) living'?
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:06 (seven years ago) link
what are you talking about dude
― marcos, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:10 (seven years ago) link
Doesn't concern u, don't worry about it.
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:13 (seven years ago) link
no the math still doesn't work out that way sorry
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:14 (seven years ago) link
It seems kind of obvious that "the rich" in any kind of leftist critique means capitalists, not people earning $34,000 and therefore materially better off than the world's extreme poor. It also seems obvious that you can still criticize a system even if there is no way to avoid being part of it. IDK why I am bothering with this though.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:14 (seven years ago) link
Sorry for getting too real conservative for the joke conservative thread, carry on. Men's sports! rap =cRap ! Lol
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:16 (seven years ago) link
IDK why I am bothering with this though
indeed
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:18 (seven years ago) link
messageboards and mobile devices have turned people into antisocial narcissists
also, zombies
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:20 (seven years ago) link
did you know that message boards aren't actually that popular anymore?
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:21 (seven years ago) link
yeah, but the damage is done, see the last 9000 threads.
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:23 (seven years ago) link
how do you manage to stay unaffected given all the time you've spent on here Morbs?
― Tom Watson in a fedora (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:24 (seven years ago) link
is this some kind of confession
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:25 (seven years ago) link
first of all, i interpreted this thread as a safe space to air unpopular opinions without some smartass jumping down yr throat, so ease off sleepi or no one else will give up the goods
second of all, even a remotely sympathetic reading of sleepingbags og post would make it clear he's not talking about anyone living in america and making 34,000$, ya dick. gonna copy paste it again:
liberalism as many of my friends practice it is like a shitty religion that i want no part of.they think of other people as needing to be saved, by them. they make penance with speech acts, not real action. they live their lives in constant guilt. they live in cities that are only differentiated from other cities by being huge destinations for wealth, then they disavow that wealth while continuing to partake in the lifestyle it provides. they blame rich people for all the evils of the world while ignoring that they are the 1%. they prescribe how other people should be living their own lives.they say things that have no meaning other than to reveal to others that they are members in this very sensitive club of good people. it's nothing but performative.― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:15 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― yolo mostly (sleepingbag), Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:15 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
are people like that really so alien to you, man alive? i feel like i see you complain about this shit all the time
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:31 (seven years ago) link
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:21 (11 minutes ago) Permalink
This really true? I thought things had just kind of migrated to reddit.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:34 (seven years ago) link
I don't think many people use ilx style message boards, or at least %-of-the-internet-doing-this is lower, the total amount out there is still probably pretty high. but fb groups and reddit boards aren't that much different, just worse for extended conversations.
― iatee, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:38 (seven years ago) link
xp. oh yeah I guess reddit is a messageboard :(
but like younger people i talk to just seem to use snapchat, whatsapp, tumblr, twitter, instagram, etc.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:38 (seven years ago) link
i hate myself; if you ppl were the slightest bit observant you'd have learned that by now.
but you're not.
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:39 (seven years ago) link
i also love myself
...because with zero mobile devices, i'm still half the cretin Shakey is.
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:41 (seven years ago) link
I only hold cool conservative beliefs
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:45 (seven years ago) link
i've met the people sleepingbag has described in los angeles quite often, except that i didn't know if they were part of the 1%, because i was not privy to such info
thing with arguments in general and ilxors is that if you quantify something -- even done offhandedly -- they will jump on you to try to prove it and will put it in a different context if they don't agree with you
it'd be cool if we didn't agree and would still be like 'oh ya we can agree to disagree but have you heard that new album by miley cyrus'
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 21:52 (seven years ago) link
vegans who use cocaine are some of the worst hypocrites
― sarahell, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 22:25 (seven years ago) link
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 August 2016
I expect less routine aloofness out of you.
― bamcquern, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 22:36 (seven years ago) link
which uncool conservative beliefs does dmac not hold? is more the question
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 22:44 (seven years ago) link
lol otm
― bagging area (map), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 22:45 (seven years ago) link
― sarahell
what animal products are used in cocaine?
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 23:43 (seven years ago) link
your mom
― bagging area (map), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 23:44 (seven years ago) link
A poll we can all agree on
Morbs/ btw i vote lefter than most of u everything else is yknow good for u /morbs
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 23:46 (seven years ago) link
reveal how lefty you are here thread is elsewhere
― Mordy, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 23:47 (seven years ago) link
Heh well of all the ilxors i didnt expect to be swayed by morbstags huh
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 23:48 (seven years ago) link
i think violent media affects the viewer's relationship to violence
― le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 23:49 (seven years ago) link
― sarahell, Wednesday, August 17, 2016 5:25 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
^^^^^
tho this doesn't strike me as really all that...conservative
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 18 August 2016 00:11 (seven years ago) link
mine would probably be something something using social/gov't resources for conserving wilderness is a good thing something something
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 18 August 2016 00:13 (seven years ago) link
weird coalition of trump and ghost of rob ford high-fiving moral upper hands by endorsing locally sourced farm-to-table cocaine
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 18 August 2016 00:36 (seven years ago) link
guys just literally dont ever do cocaine unless you are comfortable with the fact that ppl's heads got cut off in order for you to talk too loud at a party about your stupid ideas
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 18 August 2016 00:42 (seven years ago) link
yeah but they were humans and have original sin, animals have no sin
― mh, Thursday, 18 August 2016 00:53 (seven years ago) link
that's speciesist https://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/armscrossed.gif
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 18 August 2016 00:58 (seven years ago) link
Meritocracy is a fake dream and means testing matters
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 18 August 2016 01:04 (seven years ago) link
I don't know how to reconcile those ideas though
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 18 August 2016 01:05 (seven years ago) link
meritocracy is a funny fake idea like utopia and both mean nowhere
― mh, Thursday, 18 August 2016 01:06 (seven years ago) link
abortion makes me sad
― marcos, Thursday, 18 August 2016 01:10 (seven years ago) link
i mean I think it should be legal for sure but it makes me sad and I think we should invest more in preventing it
I've been a part of enough lefty activist communities to have met like extreme pro-abortion fanatics and tbh they weird me out
― marcos, Thursday, 18 August 2016 01:13 (seven years ago) link
lol, known more than a few ~comfortable radicals~ who have ranted about oppression or w/ever while high on cocaine. but yeah, don't think getting irked by that hypocrisy is a conservative stand point.
― circa1916, Thursday, 18 August 2016 01:27 (seven years ago) link
Pot is addictive and wrecks your motivation.
Vegetarianism "for ethical reasons" is ill-informed
Schools should administer discipline when necessary (though never ever physical/abusive)
― rb (soda), Thursday, 18 August 2016 02:59 (seven years ago) link
concerts should never go past 11 pm
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:01 (seven years ago) link
otm
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:03 (seven years ago) link
government subsidized insurance should not pay for homeopathic bullshit
― sarahell, Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:20 (seven years ago) link
society should reintroduce the "moron" and "imbecile" classifications and people classified as such should not be allowed to vote
― sarahell, Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:23 (seven years ago) link
dang sarahell you are really going ~in~
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:39 (seven years ago) link
I will probably enjoy long term capital gains tax if I ever have the opportunity to enjoy it.
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:39 (seven years ago) link
Insurance should always be high deductible with the primary goal of preventing a life ruining financial disaster resulting from a mistake.
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:43 (seven years ago) link
Concerts should never go past 10pm
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:47 (seven years ago) link
A deck of playing cards is better than most new boardgames
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:52 (seven years ago) link
Benny was the protagonist in Rent
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 18 August 2016 03:53 (seven years ago) link
most opinions should not be arrived at, you aren't that smart and you aren't that tasteful
― qualx, Thursday, 18 August 2016 06:10 (seven years ago) link
you shouldn't be able to graduate college without passing a class called Shutting the Fuck Up About Things Most of the Time
― qualx, Thursday, 18 August 2016 06:13 (seven years ago) link
*seminar
These are good
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 August 2016 06:17 (seven years ago) link
i don't actually know any cocaine vegans. in indiana we just have smack conservatives.
concerts should actually start on time.
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Thursday, 18 August 2016 11:44 (seven years ago) link
Qualx otm. In fact one place I'm pretty conservative is how education should be done. You don't get to participate in a seminar-style discussion where you spray your uninformed opinion all over everything without some base level of knowledge. Start by shutting the fuck up, doing the reading, and talk because you have genuine questions about what the text or the professor is saying. Also some level of memorization and understanding of dates is necessary to learning most humanities subjects. And advanced interpretive processes found in critical theory and such are just that, advanced, and you should learn to close read a text in a more formalistic way before you approach any of that stuff.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 14:05 (seven years ago) link
is epistemic humility really a conservative belief? i guess small-c conservative but i consider it a liberal value - to acknowledge that there is much we don't know or understand is to acknowledge that the status quo may be flawed.
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 14:08 (seven years ago) link
I mean my posts were less about conservatism and more just directed at this thread lol
― qualx, Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:05 (seven years ago) link
haha
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:11 (seven years ago) link
not to make a statement in general but I have come to really resent that I went to a research university -- not a GOOD one, but one that prides itself very loudly on being 'a research university' -- and I managed an english degree without ever once being asked to actually do any research in an english class.
not against humanities degrees but against the dominance of studying philosophies that don't place value in research and context outside of the context of a dumb 20 year old's dumb brain
― qualx, Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:15 (seven years ago) link
research university = the university does resesarch. It has nothing to do necessarily with what undergrads learn.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:18 (seven years ago) link
the Democratic Party would be in biiiiiig trouble if they didnt cater to extreme pro-abortion fanatics
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:20 (seven years ago) link
people should pay to go to university, and less people should go to university
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:24 (seven years ago) link
The most important skills you can develop are those that will be useful in a doomsday apocalyptic scenario.
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:28 (seven years ago) link
how could you possibly know what those would be without knowing the exact nature of the scenario?
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:31 (seven years ago) link
xp it might have had to do with the whole 'loud proclamations' thing but the university prided itself on research-centric classes, and you'd hear about it in non-humanities classes anyway (where it wouldn't necessarily be an assumption based on the course)
still, I'd say the same things about humanities in any university
― qualx, Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:32 (seven years ago) link
xp mechanics, electric, construction, farming, etc obv we can't predict the future but all seem more valuable than accounting or law
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:33 (seven years ago) link
aka skills that are valuable outside the context of society
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 16:34 (seven years ago) link
but what about the accountants and lawyers who aren't lucky enough to see a doomsday in their lifetime? what a waste of effort.
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:36 (seven years ago) link
nb that you don't actually need an apocalypse for those skills to be valuable
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:39 (seven years ago) link
but they could end up being much less valuable than accounting or law skills if you really do trade off one for the other
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:43 (seven years ago) link
i always cringed at chuck d's cameo in that sonic youth song.
a most unKOOL conservative belief.
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:47 (seven years ago) link
GMOs are good
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:47 (seven years ago) link
there is definitely nothing wrong with eating genetically modified food, billions of servings eaten to date, it's the anti-vax of food to be suspicious of gmos
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:50 (seven years ago) link
the technology for making GMOs can be used for good and bad things
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 17:52 (seven years ago) link
I'm generally fine with GMOs and don't think there's any reason to fear them, but I don't agree with the anti-vax analogy at all.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:15 (seven years ago) link
I mean vaccines are a long-used, proven thing with pretty much no purpose other than to benefit humanity and stop disease. GMOs I believe are generally safe, but it's still unclear that they'll be used in any widespread way to do anything other than make agribusiness more profitable.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:25 (seven years ago) link
being able to effectively lead a ragtag band of competent farmers, mechanics, masons and electrical engineers is way more useful than knowing how to do stuff
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:29 (seven years ago) link
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, August 18, 2016
tell it like it is
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:33 (seven years ago) link
lol
― how's life, Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:33 (seven years ago) link
i think the liberal tendency to harangue someone publicly and relentlessly every time they step outside the bounds of PC speech often just martyrs them rather than shames them and plays into the hands of folks who share even more virulent un-PC beliefs. sometimes (not always) it's probably best to kill them with kindness and prove them wrong that way or something. i don't know if that's a conservative belief or more of a strategic disagreement though.
― nomar, Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:54 (seven years ago) link
I'm not unilaterally against public shaming, but I'm hoping that we'll soon see the end of it's period of overuse.
― how's life, Thursday, 18 August 2016 18:57 (seven years ago) link
― Mordy, Thursday, August 18, 2016 9:33 AM (2 hours ago)
the underlying concepts of accounting and law are very useful in this scenario though
― sarahell, Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:00 (seven years ago) link
I believe ideas have consequences
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:00 (seven years ago) link
― El Tomboto, Thursday, August 18, 2016 11:29 AM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
first, pvmic. second, I think you meant 'electricians' there.
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:03 (seven years ago) link
I don't really foresee a prolonged period of time in which there is no "society." I think some form of society tends to congeal relatively quickly. I figure I'll probably just die in the initial deluge but if I manage to survive I'll find a way to make myself useful.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:06 (seven years ago) link
most useful skill is to learn to play to conch shell. so they keep you around for the announcement of speeches, meal times, and public executions.
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:12 (seven years ago) link
iirc the conch system's the first to go in the breakdown
― le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:13 (seven years ago) link
poor piggy
"I've got the conch"
"Oh yeah, well I've got the saxophone"
*plays hot licks*
― the enigma of dagmar krause (wins), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:16 (seven years ago) link
*plays baker street*
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:17 (seven years ago) link
you have to be a nimble, boulder dodging conch player
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:18 (seven years ago) link
but you still have to play the conch
It's a political shell game is what it is
― the enigma of dagmar krause (wins), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:19 (seven years ago) link
it's all Bologna is what it is (abalone)
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:23 (seven years ago) link
most meetings are a waste of time and resources
― sarahell, Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:25 (seven years ago) link
hey keep it down we're riffing in here
― the enigma of dagmar krause (wins), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:25 (seven years ago) link
Reagan was a damn good public speaker.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:28 (seven years ago) link
i sometimes fantasize about what we could learn if we threw all scientific ethics out the window
― flopson, Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:30 (seven years ago) link
I think you meant 'electricians' there.
"makers"
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:32 (seven years ago) link
surely Prometheus offers a chilling enough warning to discourage this
― Tom Watson in a fedora (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:35 (seven years ago) link
i dislike most music
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:35 (seven years ago) link
so does half of ILM
― Tom Watson in a fedora (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:38 (seven years ago) link
you could never listen to even half of all the music. so you'd have to listen to a representative sample of all music, and then predict that you dislike most music
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:41 (seven years ago) link
always interpreted that as they just enjoy arguing but okay
xp
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:41 (seven years ago) link
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, August 18, 2016 8:41 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
there is a thread for you: http://ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=77&threadid=48
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:42 (seven years ago) link
looks like it'd be a thread about me and for others, but ok
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:48 (seven years ago) link
call it ilx's desire to include all types
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:52 (seven years ago) link
ilx's desire to make Big Bang Theory jokes
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:56 (seven years ago) link
some ilxors like to affect a lack of understanding of rhetoric for comic effect. some ilxors maybe don't actually understand rhetoric.
― Tom Watson in a fedora (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 August 2016 19:58 (seven years ago) link
some songs I like. some songs maybe I don't like. it is only appropriate to be conservative about language and the exact numbers itt.
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:09 (seven years ago) link
first two sentences sound pretty vague tbh
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:14 (seven years ago) link
first two sentences' physical strength and stamina are extraordinary
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:17 (seven years ago) link
he understands rhetoric ladies and gentlemen
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:20 (seven years ago) link
Roland Kirk has both,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqXYAcVPDD4
― Aw naw, no' Annoni oan an' aw noo (Tom D.), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:21 (seven years ago) link
these guys can really play to conch
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:26 (seven years ago) link
I was gonna post a Steve Swell vid. If Steve Swell survives the apocalypse, I don't think I'm gonna get the conch gig.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:29 (seven years ago) link
"no no stop stop!""not my conch tempo""again! 5,6,7,8"
― veggie sticks potato snacks (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:38 (seven years ago) link
all of my conservative beliefs are the cool ones
― goole, Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:38 (seven years ago) link
black is chic
― le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:42 (seven years ago) link
stalinism is a best-case scenario for marxism in practice
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Thursday, 18 August 2016 20:49 (seven years ago) link
keep reading this as "revel in your uncool conservative beliefs here"
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 18 August 2016 21:03 (seven years ago) link
that's how I treat the thread
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 August 2016 21:04 (seven years ago) link
sometimes (not always) it's probably best to kill them
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 18 August 2016 21:48 (seven years ago) link
i love gluten
― estela, Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:22 (seven years ago) link
i love money
― bagging area (map), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:24 (seven years ago) link
God yes to both
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:31 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DurOayiRDk4
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:32 (seven years ago) link
i love having money and i hate not having enough
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:32 (seven years ago) link
but if yr saying that u just find dollar bills to be aesthetically pleasing i cannot agree
no i'm saying what you're saying. also spending it on consumer products i want, for me.
― bagging area (map), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:35 (seven years ago) link
it's not cool to be a craven apolitical consumer lifestyle gay but i think i am more of one at this point in my life. i get a lot of satisfaction out of buying things i want. and that's ok.
― bagging area (map), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:37 (seven years ago) link
I want lots of money but my life choices have not pointed me in that direction whatsoever and i don't see that changing soon. im not so much interested in buying things, but am interested in vacationing, eating out (well), and attending events all of which require $$$
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:44 (seven years ago) link
that gluten comment reminded me that i really like the smell of baker's yeast
sorry this probably belongs in a 'weird smells you secretly love' thread
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:47 (seven years ago) link
xp yeah i chose my profession based on vaguely altruistic aspirations which i'm totally over and now i have a shit ton of debt and a low income range so my spending capacity will probably just become more limited in the mid-term, buying things has turned into my way of not dealing with it well. i also want to travel so bad.
― bagging area (map), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:50 (seven years ago) link
Money is good when you can travel, buy drinks for friends, and think of nice places to eat lunch.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 18 August 2016 22:55 (seven years ago) link
Is there such a thread? I would like that. Though probably I'd find out that all the 'weird' smells I love are totally normcore and boring.
― emil.y, Thursday, 18 August 2016 23:25 (seven years ago) link
haha probably applies to me as well
i searched for it but couldn't find anything really relevant
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 18 August 2016 23:27 (seven years ago) link
there's a sickly sweet smell of wood that the table at my summer camp made when i scraped/filed it w/ the broad side of my pencil. also that chlorine'y indoor swimming pool smell.
― Mordy, Thursday, 18 August 2016 23:31 (seven years ago) link
I vote "strange scent wafting out of the a/c vent"
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 18 August 2016 23:31 (seven years ago) link
I think it's a shame that not all schools are teaching cursive writing anymore.
― tokyo rosemary, Thursday, 18 August 2016 23:51 (seven years ago) link
I have a limited range of small-c conservative beliefs but the ones that tend to cause the most arguments are:
The interests of teachers and teaching unions don't always overlap with the interests of learners.
Defamation and privacy laws need to be fit for purpose and resistant to obvious abuse but should be robust enough to provide a genuine check on a 'free press'.
― On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Friday, 19 August 2016 07:16 (seven years ago) link
weirdly i think all of my conservative beliefs are really leftist beliefs in disguise?
like, nature is indifferent, nobody deserves or is owed anything, not freedom, not safety, not a future, not care nor consideration -- there are no rights, history has no moral arc. that these things exist in the present is the result of long struggle, easily reversed.
― goole, Friday, 19 August 2016 16:48 (seven years ago) link
humans are totally depraved, by their nature
― droit au butt (Euler), Friday, 19 August 2016 17:39 (seven years ago) link
that's not really conservative though? hobbes is a foundational thinker in liberal thought?
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Friday, 19 August 2016 17:53 (seven years ago) link
it's a conservative belief cf. Lakoff
― bamcquern, Friday, 19 August 2016 20:31 (seven years ago) link
My most conservative belief is probably that deep down I'm pretty glad/relieved to live under the protection of the world's most powerful military.
― socka flocka-jones (man alive), Friday, 19 August 2016 20:36 (seven years ago) link
I like Uber a lot.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 25 August 2016 15:32 (seven years ago) link
I like Airbnb a lot and ppl are always equating the two. Is there a difference? *wanders out*
― imago, Thursday, 25 August 2016 15:40 (seven years ago) link
i love airbnb
― marcos, Thursday, 25 August 2016 15:54 (seven years ago) link
i have an almost physical revulsion to public shaming -- even in cases where the person did something "bad," i feel there is something unseemly about reveling in how bad and awful they are and how they are a "perfect example" of some larger social formation that is ultimately outside their control
― Treeship, Friday, 26 August 2016 11:31 (seven years ago) link
People who use Uber and AirBnB and all these services should dispense with any pretense that those they are paying are equals, when they are functionally "the help" and should be treated accordingly and dress the part.
― The Flash API from the officially deprecated "youtube" site (sarahell), Friday, 26 August 2016 14:14 (seven years ago) link
i get mildly annoyed by the use of "latinx" instead of latino, it is just cumbersome and i am skeptical of the notion that grammatical gender is oppressive
― marcos, Friday, 26 August 2016 20:39 (seven years ago) link
sarahell's posts itt
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/12/friday-damn.gif
― flopson, Friday, 26 August 2016 20:56 (seven years ago) link
Twenty One Pilots is a good band
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 29 August 2016 02:48 (seven years ago) link
― marcos, Friday, August 26, 2016 4:39 PM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i'll go one further and say that i think the notion that grammatical gender is oppressive is deeply anglocentric, as many languages -- including spanish -- can't do away with gendering things as easily as english can
― Treeship, Monday, 29 August 2016 03:32 (seven years ago) link
except "latino" and "latina" are words used in an english language context in the first place. it is a political designation in the US to describe people whose national/ethnic heritage traces to latin american countries. the term itself is already anglocentric. making it gender neutral in writing is p cool, though kind of a bear to vocalize. la-TIN-ex? la-TINKS? la-TIN-equis?
(also language is def oppressive tho obv using the right pronouns alone is not justice, etc.)
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Monday, 29 August 2016 04:03 (seven years ago) link
throws conservative 2 cents in: polyamory is a fool's errand
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Monday, 29 August 2016 04:07 (seven years ago) link
I wouldn't call it a belief but when an acquaintance or internet stranger goes on about their life being out of control, my reaction is sometimes "why not just have your life not be a nightmare train wreck" as if they chose it
This is the most uncool thing I'm aware of about myself.
Being roughly aligned with J Street as far as I/P issues makes me a conservative by some standards and a self-hating Jew by others so I don't count that.
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Monday, 29 August 2016 04:18 (seven years ago) link
I really don't enjoy people who use FB as the place to air all thir woes
― Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Monday, 29 August 2016 04:22 (seven years ago) link
*their
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Monday, 29 August 2016 04:25 (seven years ago) link
bureaucracy is good
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Monday, 29 August 2016 04:27 (seven years ago) link
― 6 god none the richer (m bison)
for straights
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 29 August 2016 10:27 (seven years ago) link
Noted!
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Monday, 29 August 2016 11:08 (seven years ago) link
I don't think septum piercings look particularly good.
― emil.y, Monday, 29 August 2016 11:11 (seven years ago) link
Tattoos are fucking repulsive.
― cakelou, Monday, 29 August 2016 11:15 (seven years ago) link
i think sometimes you probably have to execute your political enemies
― Ban Lencowink (Noodle Vague), Monday, 29 August 2016 12:36 (seven years ago) link
i prefer latin@s. haha.
nothing anglocentric about the use tho, you see latinxs and latin@s in Spanish - well ive seen both used in spain and chile.
i agree that the fact that the plural term in spanish for something including both genders is just the form used for dudes is not the biggest issue.
the term "gender" was historically purely grammatical of course, up until modern times at least
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Monday, 29 August 2016 16:51 (seven years ago) link
isn't rendering something in a way that's unsayable privileging the written over the lived? or does it call attn to that fact? is it logocentric (only 90s kids will understand)
― goole, Monday, 29 August 2016 16:55 (seven years ago) link
I assumed that ppl who use it just say "la-TIN-ex" like m bison suggested above? has anyone here heard someone say "latinx" irl?
― soref, Monday, 29 August 2016 17:04 (seven years ago) link
or, to be accurate, I assumed ppl pronounced it "la-TEEN-ex"
― soref, Monday, 29 August 2016 17:05 (seven years ago) link
Pretty much only at Black Lives Matter rallies and similar protests.Xp
― one way street, Monday, 29 August 2016 17:06 (seven years ago) link
(It is la-TEEN-ex as far as I know)
― one way street, Monday, 29 August 2016 17:07 (seven years ago) link
la-TEEN-ex is phonetically atrocious imo, sounds like portmanteau of latrine and kleenex. i had previously imagined it pronounced la-TINX, which doesn't quite roll off the tongue, either. i'll call anyone whatever they want tho because being uptight about it is NOT one of my Uncool Conservative Beliefs B-)
there needs to be a word for the cycle of denial, anxiety, frustration and acceptance we go through when made aware of new inclusive/pc terminology lol
― flopson, Monday, 29 August 2016 17:27 (seven years ago) link
The 4 stages of woke
― jmm, Monday, 29 August 2016 17:36 (seven years ago) link
i don't tihnk i'm getting more conservative but i think like internet social justice clickbait shit and all the pop culture armchair sociology and shit around it is getting tiresome, like analyzing every beyonce VMA appearance or young thug album cover as some hugely meaningful thing in our discourse around social justice is annoying. idk im a poc and have spent a lot of time the past few years immersed in social justice / diversity / inclusion work in my career including chairing the diversity & inclusion committee at my last job so part of it could just be diversity fatigue which i've talked about w/ other people doing this kind of work byut i also just have less patience for the dumber shit said by people who i otherwise agree with
― marcos, Monday, 29 August 2016 18:21 (seven years ago) link
latinx okay i get it but i still think it is kind of dumb
latinx sounds like an energy drink for latin@s
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Monday, 29 August 2016 18:40 (seven years ago) link
This is an uncool liberal belief, not a conservative one
― El Tomboto, Monday, 29 August 2016 18:58 (seven years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/8o9Z2lZ.jpg
― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Monday, 29 August 2016 21:43 (seven years ago) link
like one way street upthread what I think of as "uncool conservative beliefs" may in fact be "mainstream liberal beliefs" that I suspect would catch flak from my more occasionally radical interlocutors
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Monday, 29 August 2016 21:47 (seven years ago) link
Many xposts
To be clear fwiw my la-TIN-ex pronunciation is the long I sound in Spanish
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 00:40 (seven years ago) link
Latin@s is almost there but exclusionary of non-binary genders
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 00:41 (seven years ago) link
i'm kind of wondering if sarahel has ever used airbnb or uber
― have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:41 (seven years ago) link
you don't "pay" uber drivers and aren't most airbnb "landlords" middle class ppl?
― have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:42 (seven years ago) link
aren't most airbnb "landlords" middle class ppl?
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/mar/18/airbnb-from-homesharing-cool-to-commercial-giant
most airbnb landlords are landlords
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:50 (seven years ago) link
and uber, at least in cities, is mainly a way to fuck over unionized cabdrivers who actually did the work to get a hack license and appropriate insurance for their business
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:51 (seven years ago) link
these are not my uncool conservative opinions though, sorry
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:52 (seven years ago) link
i have a few friends that make decent side cashola doing the AirBnb thing
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:55 (seven years ago) link
as opposed to like, renting a room to a tenant, which would make them a fraction of the money. only catch is the occasional death threat (which one of my friends got from a AirBnb guest who they had to remove)
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:56 (seven years ago) link
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Monday, August 29, 2016 9:51 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
in my city hack licenses are monopolized and leased by a handful of genuinely shitty people; i have mixed feelings at best on uber but the current system can burn.
― call all destroyer, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 02:05 (seven years ago) link
leftists who preach equality and compassion are often people who are doing it for reasons of fashion/social climbing/superiority and can be the most miserable dicks out there. if they have an Alain Badiou book in conspicuous sight, you're in for a bad time. unless you're one of the same douchebags and can crow about it together.
uncool conservative belief twofer, people who read literature and philosophy but don't seem to actually understand/absorb it considering their levels of empathy and understanding about the world are still at sub-toddler levels.
― larry appleton, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 02:54 (seven years ago) link
capitalism has been one of history's greatest drivers of quality of life
ppl would be happier if they attended religious services more often
the #1 problem in the west today is the disintegration of communities / the family
― Mordy, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 03:01 (seven years ago) link
for many, true, definitely not true in my case. I think having any kind of therapeutic, repeated communal activity can be helpful, which is why I won't shit on anybody who gets something out of it, though. it works for my folks.
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 03:07 (seven years ago) link
leftists who preach equality and compassion are often people who are doing it for reasons of fashion/social climbing/superiority and can be the most miserable dicks out there.
in the online world, I wonder how much of that is driven by the current climate where everybody feels pressured to have an opinion on something and make it known, lest their silence be interpreted as 'not giving a shit'.
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 03:16 (seven years ago) link
― Mordy, Monday, August 29, 2016 10:01 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i agree with the last two which is why i cannot fully endorse #1
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 03:21 (seven years ago) link
well, i wont put it #1, but it's on the list
*sigh* which is to say disintegration of communities and family is not #1, you feel me
I find it kind of ridiculous that the govt chips in for NPR. Why don't they chip in for New Yorker subscriptions while they're at it
― Heez, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 14:34 (seven years ago) link
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 01:50 (twelve hours ago) Permalink
maybe its different in uk/europe but commercial listings are still a minority of listings, but a higher share of revenue (because they can rent the rooms out more days/year) http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/airbnb-probably-isnt-driving-rents-up-much-at-least-not-yet/
― flopson, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 14:55 (seven years ago) link
most people should not have children
― clouds, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 15:06 (seven years ago) link
My personal flavour of Uncool Conservatism is a mix of 1. a Hobbesian fear of well-meaning but wrong radicals succeeding and actually taking over (sorry ows and emil.y!) and then we all idk starve or get our heads chopped off or whatever, and 2. contrarian neoliberal scold. The former is relatively sincere, the latter is more of a troll and a product of ennui at having grown-up in an intellectual environment of incurious and smug petit-bourgeois progressivism; the same force pushed me to the far left in college. I don't really have enough confidence in most of my political beliefs to really act on them in any meaningful way beyond posting regretful challops on an anonymous plaintext message board, voting (so far always a razor's edge of indifference between two center-left parties), and occasionally throwing some change at campaigns & orgs like Sanders or BLM that tug my heartstrings. I generally come out on the woke side of the White-Guy Cycle of Social Justice Acceptance but still have private misgivings about how some of the institutions play out irl (esp in music scenes, one of which I've had first hand experience of being ripped to shreds over ensuing acrimony)
― flopson, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 16:01 (seven years ago) link
This one really bums me out actually. The offices of a "hip" college kid-skewing church are across the street from my house and they always seem to have all sort of events going on, like cookouts and people doing stuff and a band playing every once in a while.
I think a lot about how nice it would be to have some sort of community like that to interact with regularly, but the single thing that every one of these people by definition have in common and the essential reason they're all hanging out together is something that I think is absolute nonsense. There doesn't seem to be anything quite like shared spiritual belief that causes people to get together in this manner.
― joygoat, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:05 (seven years ago) link
hey, you never know, maybe they're just there for the bbq
― flopson, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:11 (seven years ago) link
Seriously. I was looking for a way out of the church my whole childhood and when I turned 16 I found a job that required me to be there on Sunday mornings. I miss the ice cream socials and volunteer opportunities, but fuck listening to interminable sermons once a week and cracking open the hymnal every 10 minutes.
― how's life, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:14 (seven years ago) link
i am super happy not going to religious services at all, like my weekends got 100x better when i got to college and realized that i don't have to go to church every sunday anymore
― marcos, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:15 (seven years ago) link
but yea i agree about the need for community/family
― marcos, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:16 (seven years ago) link
my wife and i tried out various churches for a while, we were both raised catholic and not interested in that anymore so we visited a few different progressive churches eg UCC, UU and it was fine i guess but it still felt like church, the bigger factor was that i just realized i wasn't a christian anymore so it became kind of pointless to go
― marcos, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:18 (seven years ago) link
Not a conservative belief: I've found that if you can bracket yr faith (or lack thereof) it stops being important. Like who cares whether I believe? I'm just some shmuck.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:21 (seven years ago) link
i find doing things i want to do to be generally superior to doing things i have to do.
a lot of people, honestly, particularly at the mainline/liberal denominations, _are_ just there for the barbecue. it's so funny to me that so many people are proud about being "spiritual but not religious" when being religious but not spiritual is way better for you as a human being. being "spiritual" will super fuck you up.
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:21 (seven years ago) link
Like who cares whether I believe? I'm just some shmuck.
irl lol, something v Jewish about this
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:25 (seven years ago) link
Finding it hard to disagree with these tbh.
― Aw naw, no' Annoni oan an' aw noo (Tom D.), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:35 (seven years ago) link
the main problem with religious involvement is the people imo. the church on my street that has a band that sounds like coldplay playing during services, and does a soup kitchen for the homeless, and runs a nursery, and free tax clinics etc. seems nice and welcoming and not stuffy. even if we ignore the fact that they're total bigots, the people are just awful. they come from the suburbs into the city to go to church - i guess because it's some specific weirdo prod denomination. after service finishes they flood to the local ice cream places in their suvs. they are bland. they are wholesome. they are blah.
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:36 (seven years ago) link
The point of a revolutionary vanguard is not to create revolution, but to scare the bourgeoisie into creating a welfare state.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 17:41 (seven years ago) link
Frederik, you will like this section of this wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail#Drivers_of_Democracy
You might like the book too but I dunno haven't read it
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 18:06 (seven years ago) link
the people are just awful
well, that's people for you, isn't it?
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 18:08 (seven years ago) link
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:25 AM (fifty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yep
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 18:23 (seven years ago) link
there's a local youth-oriented church thing in my city that's similar, I think maybe they're not all that religiousy then I see a group of them studying the bible at a coffeeshop
super weird when there are two bible study groups of young (college-age to mid-20s) adults and they're segregated by gender. like, you're from the same church and all sitting there with bibles open, wtf is going on here
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 18:24 (seven years ago) link
my belief is that youth-oriented churches are a corruption of the idea of church community because the point of the community is it includes the old and young alike and age is a really creepy way to divide yr religious community
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 18:25 (seven years ago) link
there are many, many cool new wave churches around where I live that seem to be targeting a younger demo. I, for one, am deeply suspicious of all of them.
― Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 18:49 (seven years ago) link
Yanks still fixating on religion wtf guys the world is yours
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 19:08 (seven years ago) link
yanks took that seriously and literally now own the world dude
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 19:29 (seven years ago) link
I guess the haters call this neo-liberalism rather than conservatism, but: I think identity-based politics are more important than class-based at this moment in time.
Also, and I know this is controversial, for all that I dislike Clinton's foreign policy and find her too hawkish, I still trust her more than Stein on this subject. And, honestly, Sanders.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 19:38 (seven years ago) link
Xp if u own the world hows come u pay us all the tax
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 19:41 (seven years ago) link
I think you'll find we don't pay you the tax, hence the legal wrangling
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 19:46 (seven years ago) link
We don't want it anyway
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 19:58 (seven years ago) link
― mh 😏, Tuesday, August 30, 2016 2:25 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I thought youth-oriented churches were the ones with a mix if young and old alike, and it's other churches that are exclusively geriatrics at this point
― flopson, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 20:01 (seven years ago) link
it's a double irish arrangement foolio
feel bad for dear old ireland tho
eu should be ashamed of itself
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 20:03 (seven years ago) link
Nah, Margrethe Vestager ftw!
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 20:11 (seven years ago) link
cheers peggy for turning a blind eye to tax loopholes in a country that needed a bailout
gotta love the socialists for keeping those in need down, but feeding them just enough swill to think they're improving
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 20:23 (seven years ago) link
I can't decide where I stand on it tbh. Doesn't feel like tax swindling is a just or sustainable basis for economic success but......maybe it is?
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 20:29 (seven years ago) link
children who regularly misbehave in school should be sent to work camps
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 20:29 (seven years ago) link
church youth groups exist as a dating pool imo.
― ryan, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 21:03 (seven years ago) link
(something that becomes readilyapparent if you've ever been in/around one: they are erotically charged to a fairly intense degree)
― ryan, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 21:26 (seven years ago) link
yeah, that was the creepy vibe I got watching the two tables of coffee shop bible studiers interacting
reminds me of my college roommate who was raised very churchy who said that if you sat next to the same person at a college christian group three weeks in a row you're now engaged
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 21:28 (seven years ago) link
lol my church youth group was quite small, all male, and any erotic energy was sublimated
― ogmor, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 21:35 (seven years ago) link
dicks 4 Jesus
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 21:36 (seven years ago) link
― mh 😏
or maybe it's that many churches are so oriented around family life (there seem to be a lot of people who are not highly concerned with religion personally but are concerned that their children learn religious values) that people without children feel left out, particularly since they're a definite minority in most churches.
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 21:47 (seven years ago) link
struggling to think of any actual conservative beliefs that i have (other than the good ones mentioned here about community/family/religion) that are distinguishable as truly conservative as opposed to just a general philosophical pessimism (hence the value i see in some traditional forms of religion). Is belief in "progress" still a Left Wing belief? Historical necessity? Enlightenment? Who believes in these things anymore?
― ryan, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 22:49 (seven years ago) link
Enlightenment in light of post colonialism almost can seem right wing! Tho there are left wing (antideutsch) who still use this kind of language from the left - though they seem troubling right?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 22:51 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxRD0UvbpII
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 22:54 (seven years ago) link
In fine with some animals going extinct. Labor unions in their present state are causing more harm than good. I think some people are just lazy.
― Jeff, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 23:56 (seven years ago) link
i *think* belief in progress is right wing now
― flopson, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 00:05 (seven years ago) link
Right wing progress is shipping illegals to a deep part of the Gulf of Mexico.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 00:09 (seven years ago) link
the value of privacy far outweighs the usefulness/utility of social media (which also i detest/reject almost universally)
― geometry-stabilized craft (art), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 03:21 (seven years ago) link
while i use the internet and air conditioning and whatever, when it comes to future technological advancements, i am only capable of anticipating them with dread
― Treeship, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 03:47 (seven years ago) link
I welcome dread as the overwhelming emotion of anticipating the future. It's the rational response to unmapped terrain.
― mh 😏, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 04:55 (seven years ago) link
Here be basilisks
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 04:56 (seven years ago) link
tbh I own books and save articles titled "dread exhibition" and "dread networks" and love music that embraces that feeling while treeship seems to be relatively cheerful, head-in-sand, sharing articles everyone can halfheartedly disdain while slowly shaking collective heads and ho-humming and bonding over how things ideally could be
― mh 😏, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 04:57 (seven years ago) link
Thoreau was the foremost writer of dystopias tbh
― mh 😏, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 04:58 (seven years ago) link
― geometry-stabilized craft (art), Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:21 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
almost posted about this in another thread the other day but didn't for fear of being clowned. Mostly because obviously, nobody forces us to be a part of social media, but it's almost forced in some ways. You don't get invited to some events because a friend does all his inviting on FB and he forgot you aren't on it anymore and didn't call/text you. You're a part of a hobby/project that uses FB groups to document meeting times/important news and it inconveniences everybody else if you're not on FB. You find out about things less swiftly.
the whole lack of privacy thing became a lot more concerning to me when they no longer allowed you to prevent other people from searching you by name (encouraged stalker behavior, which has forced at least two friends of mine to change their real names to fake names on FB). social media was so much more simple when it was just MySpace and a fledgling Facebook. People posted silly crap and just kept up with their friends, much more innocuous.
4 or 5 years ago, I got a sizable raise due to joining a new department due to the dissolution of my old one. This was a huge deal because my debt-to-income ratio had been terrible to where I was losing money each month despite being gainfully employed, so in a foolish moment, I posted about it (without specifics, but mentioning a raise, which of course is a no-no cos it's private). I don't recall having any co-workers as FB friends at that time (though it's foggy), but I did list where I worked (which I now refuse to do). Somehow, a former colleague of mine somehow got wind of what I posted and made a stink about it that got back to my manager. Fortunately I didn't get in any trouble, but I sure didn't make that mistake again.
Checking in to show friends where you are is innocent enough, but can easily encourage stalker behavior (esp if you are friends with tons of people you barely know on FB). and now the latest problem is friends who don't know each other laying into each other in the midst of political discussions - there was once an argument that erupted on FB amongst an acquaintance of mine and a stranger which escalated to an outright death threat (which fortunately was not acted upon). I got accused of hurting someone's feelings last year for a thing I posted (to be fair, it was deserved - it was a dickish thing and I handled it quite poorly). My social anxiety and OCD is bad enough at the moment (I need to find a new therapist after losing my last one) to where I often react severely to being criticized or insulted (even jokingly) in an online setting, so I mostly pick and choose what I post lately.
But, with that being said, for a dude with crippling social anxiety, it also opened a lot of doors for me. one of my longest lasting relationships originated with a FB conversation. the ease of inviting people to things led me to organize events that I would previously be too chickenshit to do due to the rigor of mailing invitations/etc and keeping tabs of details. I gained several acting roles and musical gigs by simply paying attention, as well as being able to easily circulate portfolio. and because of my self-esteem issues, sometimes it has helped me kick off a discussion when I am upset with someone to tell them about it calmly so that we can then progress to discussing it in person. probably sounds a bit pathetic, but I've gotten a lot better since being medicated (still a bit 'damaged goods' but hey).
so I have to think I'd be worse off without it.
but I do worry about online privacy, particularly the longevity of the internet and how embarrassing content can have an unlimited hself life. There are posts from me using my gov't name on Usenet (a Metallica group) from when I was in high school still c 20 years ago chasing me all over the net. From when I was a Fundamentalist Christian. It's usually worth a chuckle. I'm usually careful to adopt pseudonyms and be very careful about the things I post that could be traced back to me.
― Neanderthal, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:10 (seven years ago) link
LiveJournal still existing kinda amazes me
― Neanderthal, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:16 (seven years ago) link
did not mean to impugn treeship's wistfulness, it is fine
― mh 😏, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:26 (seven years ago) link
this seems so absurd after having grown up on a stale diet of nuclear fallout fantasies and crazy cold war espionage films
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:29 (seven years ago) link
creates cool mutations IMO
― Neanderthal, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:33 (seven years ago) link
lol that is a particular specified dread, I just mean the underlying feeling that things could go wrong, but every day we act to live, not only in reaction to the feeling
it's like feeling that the road will be bumpy and we share this recognition and make art about it, but we keep on rolling. Cold War bunker ppl are straight up fetishists. I think the more dystopias you write the fewer you live
― mh 😏, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:34 (seven years ago) link
feel the dread, live the life
walden retreat and bunker ppl are the same in a way, retreating from the world instead of taking a breather and just doing your thing
― mh 😏, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 05:36 (seven years ago) link
People who don't read books are idiots
― Foster Twelvetrees (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 06:30 (seven years ago) link
I eagerly anticipate technological advances in the future. Is that conservative or not?
― Jeff, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 08:32 (seven years ago) link
Re: privacy, I'll gladly sacrifice it for convenience. I don't know if that is conservative or not either.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 08:35 (seven years ago) link
I'm pretty cool about accepting these and suspicious of people who habitually refuse given the minimal effort it takes but I do sometimes get the (possibly reactionary) sense that too much energy is being spent on inventing and policing terminology that isn't particularly different to the old terms. I'm thinking of the time I said on here that I didn't really use the phrase "person of colour" as I find it a bit silly and awkward (which I only brought up cause ppl were acting horrified that some dummy had used the term "person of ethnicity" which is an identical construction) and I was straight up scolded by a white woman about how actually it's the preferred term among activists, actually
Or again recently when someone told off a (poc) poster for using the terms "coloured" and "ethnic", presumably as opposed to the permitted acronyms poc and bme & it's like what the fuck do you think the c and e stand for genius?
― meh 😐 (wins), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 10:08 (seven years ago) link
I get that there's often other value than inclusivity here - provocation, cultural shibboleths, narc of sd - just not sure it's always worth it
― meh 😐 (wins), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 10:10 (seven years ago) link
i think in general there's a pretty poor understanding of digital privacy and its implications among the general public, particularly the idea that it's an absolute, either something is "private" or not. i'm super amazed that people will disclose information to advertisers they don't trust the government with.
― a confederacy of lampreys (rushomancy), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 12:57 (seven years ago) link
lol my church youth group was quite small, all male, and any erotic energy was sublimated― ogmor, Tuesday, August 30, 2016 4:35 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― ogmor, Tuesday, August 30, 2016 4:35 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
they just weren't that into you
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 31 August 2016 14:42 (seven years ago) link
tbh I own books and save articles titled "dread exhibition" and "dread networks" and love music that embraces that feeling while treeship seems to be relatively cheerful, head-in-sand, sharing articles everyone can halfheartedly disdain while slowly shaking collective heads and ho-humming and bonding over how things ideally could be― mh 😏, Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:57 AM (eighteen hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― mh 😏, Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:57 AM (eighteen hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I conservatively wish that i actually embodied this caricature.
― Treeship, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 23:28 (seven years ago) link
sometimes I wish I could still be religious. i was brought up in a Catholic school run by a Franciscan order and they were pretty cool, they were hardcore about compassion and social justice and lived it. i became an atheist at 13 cuz the whole subjective/community faith ≠ objective reality thing that i've never been able to resolve.
I think my personal quality of life would probably be better if I were religious and part of a progressive religious community, but I can't get past the belief thing.
― larry appleton, Wednesday, 31 August 2016 23:57 (seven years ago) link
Have u considered Judaism
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Thursday, 1 September 2016 00:16 (seven years ago) link
cannot recommend the application process at this time
― Mordy, Thursday, 1 September 2016 00:18 (seven years ago) link
Are they not cross-training mohels on anesthesiology yet
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Thursday, 1 September 2016 00:19 (seven years ago) link
Oh here's an uncool conservative belief, I'm glad my genitals were modified as part of a ritual symbolizing my family's religious beliefs.
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Thursday, 1 September 2016 00:20 (seven years ago) link
well when you put it like that...
― ogmor, Thursday, 1 September 2016 07:20 (seven years ago) link
I suspect that pornography actually is psychically harmful, and I dislike the extremes to which sexuality has been commodified in our society (although the second part is more from a Marxist than conservative POV).
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 2 September 2016 18:51 (seven years ago) link
But then liberalism likes to pretend that everything not liberal is conservative.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 2 September 2016 18:52 (seven years ago) link
The problem is that most of the anti-porn discourse out there is terrible and comes from the wrong place and puts you in league with gross people.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 2 September 2016 19:11 (seven years ago) link
Marxism would prob have pornos imo
― flopson, Friday, 2 September 2016 19:14 (seven years ago) link
Pornography in the Soviet Union[edit]Pornography in the Soviet Union was largely suppressed until the final years of the USSR. According to The Pornography and Erotica Debate: USSR, sex in general was viewed as "a wasteful consumer of energies better devoted to the building of Communism." Genrikh Yagoda, the third head of the NKVD, was accused during his trial (besides espionage and high treason) of storing a great number of pornographic films and pictures. Such accusations were also faced by Nikolai Yezhov, who followed Yagoda. More recently, possession could get up to 3 years in prison, or a 3000 ruble fine. The 1988 Soviet film Malenkaya Vera was the first to feature a sex scene. The resolution on Glasnost stated, "Glasnost must not be used...[to] disseminate pornography" but by September 1989, calendars of topless women for the year 1990 were being sold in Moscow.[1]
― flopson, Friday, 2 September 2016 19:15 (seven years ago) link
i agree w/gbx's post upthread
guys just literally dont ever do cocaine unless you are comfortable with the fact that ppl's heads got cut off in order for you to talk too loud at a party about your stupid ideas― jason waterfalls (gbx)
― jason waterfalls (gbx)
― nomar, Friday, 2 September 2016 19:23 (seven years ago) link
yeah completely agree with that, don't see it as conservative though, more like bad/contradictory thinking from people who think they're left-leaning.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 2 September 2016 19:25 (seven years ago) link
yeah i guess it's an instance where conservative schoolmarming and more leftish social concerns overlap on a venn diagram of anti-drug beliefs.
― nomar, Friday, 2 September 2016 19:28 (seven years ago) link
Otoh I bet the overlap between people politically serious enough to boycott companies with bad ethicalpractices and cocaine users is small.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 2 September 2016 19:34 (seven years ago) link
I str8 up h8 the dutch
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Friday, 2 September 2016 19:42 (seven years ago) link
While I understand the political calculations informing the use of "undocumented" and support nationalizing most of these immigrants, I still get irritated when "illegal" isn't used. They broke the law, albeit a misdemeanor by not having papers.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2016 20:27 (seven years ago) link
is the objection not that the person may have committed an illegal act but the term "illegal" is used, in perpetuum to describe their personhood?
― ælərdaɪs (jim in vancouver), Friday, 2 September 2016 20:30 (seven years ago) link
there's no way to know
i was in the unfortunate case of dealing with us immigration and someone who could no longer reside in the country legally -- she gained entrance legally and the only reason her residential status switched to 'illegal' was because us immigration is the biggest piece of fucking shit i've ever encountered
'undocumented' is just giving people the benefit of the doubt that they may be here illegally for reasons out of their control. that's not to say a lot of people didn't immigrate to the us illegally, but it's just tricky using a blanket statement to describe what varies almost case by case
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Friday, 2 September 2016 20:39 (seven years ago) link
actually, undocumented doesn't sound like someone is judging the reason you are still in the country or how you gained entrance, which is fine by me
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Friday, 2 September 2016 20:43 (seven years ago) link
Part of the objection to "illegal immigrant" is that it modifies the person rather than the act. It sounds like it's supposed to imply "bad person." Of course, you could make the same argument about "criminal" as a noun.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 2 September 2016 20:52 (seven years ago) link
eloquently said!
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Friday, 2 September 2016 20:56 (seven years ago) link
thanks, y'all
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2016 21:08 (seven years ago) link
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Friday, September 2, 2016 9:42 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Thats not what you whispered in my ear last night iirc
― Le Bateau Ivre, Saturday, 3 September 2016 21:43 (seven years ago) link
This is not why I have you the WiFi code
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Saturday, 3 September 2016 21:49 (seven years ago) link
What kind of belief is "bring back conscription" if it includes public service jobs in addition to military duty? Is that conservative and uncool?
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Saturday, 3 September 2016 23:51 (seven years ago) link
i think it sounds collectivist and great. would have been way better than how i spent the years between 18 and 22, that is, learning to become a narcissist at liberal arts college
― Treeship, Saturday, 3 September 2016 23:55 (seven years ago) link
Man, fuck conscription. I spent four months underpaid at a tv station, had to wait a whole year before I could go to college. But that's not the worst of it, the worst was the final year of high school, where everyone was making plans for what they wanted to afterwards, and I couldn't plan anything because I 1) am a man and 2) started highschool quite young, only turned 18 in third year, so went to the draft in the spring, during exams, while most of the men in my class went in second grade.
Fuck conscription. It's bullshit and it fucks up young people's life in so many ways.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 4 September 2016 10:39 (seven years ago) link
Oh, no, you know what's the fucking worst about conscription? In Denmark, education is free, and most people take a long time finishing it. It's not that unusual to finish college in your thirties. So the government floated the idea to give people a bonus if they got done with college six years after finishing highschool. And I wouldn't have qualified BECAUSE I WAS FUCKING DRAFTED!!!
I mean, they didn't do it, and who cares. But fuck conscription, seriously. Fucking fuck conscription.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 4 September 2016 10:45 (seven years ago) link
I don't know any vegans who use cocaine but then again I don't live in California
― esempiu (crüt), Sunday, 4 September 2016 12:24 (seven years ago) link
A tv station
― poor fiddy-less albion (darraghmac), Sunday, 4 September 2016 13:15 (seven years ago) link
people that railed against that Wells Fargo ad ("Yesterday - Actor, today - botanist") were overreacting cos acting is a crappy way to make a living and half the 'actor' friends of mine who were upset about it have corporate careers.
and Rent is about selfish Bohemians who think everybody owes them something.
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 4 September 2016 14:02 (seven years ago) link
re: conscription, hard to imagine a bigger voluntary waste of welfare and liberty than arbitrarily imposing that young adults not do whatever the f they want
― flopson, Sunday, 4 September 2016 15:12 (seven years ago) link
If I had been conscripted instead of enlisting I would have come out with half of my college education already completed, assuming I chose to matriculate in a degree program similar to what I had trained for. This doesn't work for all military jobs, of course, or for all majors. As it was I went in with 2+ years of credits completed and finished the rest while I was in; got my B.A. the month before my enlistment ended.
I really appreciate Fred's perspective. I think maybe my truly uncool conservative belief here is that young people and their parents need to have a more open mind about military service, like, people who are not from families with a service history should all strongly consider signing on to be a perfectly good and worthwhile thing to do and not some dumb risky shit that's only for poor kids and ne'er do wells. I would really like it if military time was commonplace enough that people would stop being all ostentatiously fucking grateful about it. Sorry not sorry, that shit gets on my last nerve.
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Sunday, 4 September 2016 16:15 (seven years ago) link
there's a left-wing argument for conscription - gives middle + upper class families more of a stake in questions of war
― Mordy, Sunday, 4 September 2016 16:21 (seven years ago) link
I would really like it if military time was commonplace enough that people would stop being all ostentatiously fucking grateful about it.
there were Vets outside the Def Leppard show I just went to asking for courtesy tickets to the show for vets and kept saying "you're welcome" with a sneer to people who walked by them, it was a bit offputting
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 4 September 2016 16:24 (seven years ago) link
i don't feel too bad tbh i don't remember asking anybody to fuck up the middle east for me
― you can't drowned a duck (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 4 September 2016 16:27 (seven years ago) link
i'm glad i didn't get conscripted i guess but no conscription is a keystone of endless ambient war, shrug
― le Histoire du Edgy Miley (difficult listening hour), Sunday, 4 September 2016 17:19 (seven years ago) link
Denmark only has peacetime conscription. No conscripts went to Iraq, only professional soldiers. It's meant to be defensive, but of course, last time we were invaded, we were defeated in six hours anyway.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 4 September 2016 17:31 (seven years ago) link
people spend way too much energy on getting laid
― droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 5 September 2016 18:57 (seven years ago) link
variation on that: hook-up culture is bad.
copyright rules should be more standardized and enforceable.
― until the next, delayed, glaciation (map), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 18:09 (seven years ago) link
This is not so much conservative as straight up racist, but sometimes I think that people with passports from certain countries should not be allowed to open American bank accounts. Particularly Nigerians and to a lesser extent Iranian and Armenian nationals. Individuals from these groups generate a disturbingly high proportion of alerts for unusual transaction activity and are almost never cleared of wrongdoing in the subsequent investigations (e.g. every time their activity gets referred, they are in fact ultimately determined to be doing something fraudulent/illegal).
Their schemes are ALWAYS incredibly complicated, involving numerous relatives, associates, and domestic/foreign shell companies, so the investigations invariably take days to complete. At the end of your 20 hour investigation you will typically find the source of funds is... in order of frequency of occurrence... 1. scammed American elderly people(lottery/romance/whatever); 2. victims of tax fraud ("You owe the IRS $10,000 and must pay us now!"); 3. suspected drug money; 4. money being laundered out of Nigeria (oil/government corruption) and moved everywhere on earth imaginable before being parked in real estate or in an offshore account.
In conclusion, my uncool conservative belief/fantasy/death wish is that Nigerian nationals should not be banked in America. Thank you and good night.
― Gatemouth, Monday, 19 September 2016 16:13 (seven years ago) link
thank you and enjoy your FPs
― you can't drowned a duck (Noodle Vague), Monday, 19 September 2016 16:31 (seven years ago) link
does that have to do anything with that iranian millionaire living in ohio who was on welfare?
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 19 September 2016 17:30 (seven years ago) link
oh did these ripoff artists park their money with Wells Fargo?
― goole, Monday, 19 September 2016 17:38 (seven years ago) link
i don't think so
i'm referring to this one: http://www.wkyc.com/news/investigations/raid-targets-geauga-county-millionaire-on-food-stamps/315215814
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 19 September 2016 17:46 (seven years ago) link
I think Mumia is probably guilty and while there were some questionable details at original trial, probably doesn't deserve another retrial (note - not a belief I apply to other similar cases, just that one).
― Neanderthal, Friday, 7 October 2016 17:14 (seven years ago) link
treating dysphoric children with puberty blockers and HRT is unethical.
not being attracted to old or obese or disabled or otherwise conventionally unattractive people is "fine" and "unproblematic" and "not symptomatic of internalized gerontophobia/fatphobia/ableism".
there's something quaint and poetic about cleaning and oiling a handgun, engraving your glock with delicate filigrees and bald eagles, building a gun cabinet out of barnwood to keep in the corner of your man cave. is it worth losing a part of our cultural heritage in the name of gun control? yes. but something of marginal value will still have been lost.
― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Monday, 17 October 2016 02:19 (seven years ago) link
Yeah you're wrong about the first one.
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Monday, 17 October 2016 02:21 (seven years ago) link
maybe. I'm just not convinced that young children (and to a lesser extent adolescents) are capable of informed consent for medical interventions of that magnitude.
― hippie lady from california who loves that god (unregistered), Monday, 17 October 2016 02:45 (seven years ago) link
this is not about what's right or wrong, this is about what's cool
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 17 October 2016 02:51 (seven years ago) link
lol sry I got mad
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Monday, 17 October 2016 03:01 (seven years ago) link
pathetic esquire magazine fanfic at the end is the height of uncool at least
― qualx, Monday, 17 October 2016 03:04 (seven years ago) link
The bit about having some interest in/reverence for guns-as-objects has become somewhat more understandable to me when I contemplate my own relationship with guitars. I'm frankly a sucker for gear fetishism.
One can kinda understand how deeply a gun nut might just really get _into_ the history, peculiarities, aesthetic properties, and cultural resonance of a particular piece of equipment. How he might contemplate its power and its resonance, enjoy handling and caring for it, and strive to use it more accurately and maintain it well. (Quite irrespective of its capacity to, y'know, kill people.)
Just as there are those dudes who can glance at a Stratocaster headstock and tell you the year and place of manufacture, based merely on the serial number. People who aren't necessarily even serious musicians, they just love to collect and fondle and admire guitars. "Ah, I can tell that that's a '53; they didn't start using the bent-steel saddles until '54, plus that year's formulation of Fiesta Red is known to fade to pink rather than deepen."
(Or whatever, I'm sure I'm garbling that, but you know the type of knowledge I mean.)
― go get your winebox (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 17 October 2016 03:20 (seven years ago) link
I don't really want to wade into a debate about this, but puberty blockers' effects are reversible, and essentially just buy time for adolescents to make their decisions; and going through the wrong puberty as a trans kid can often be extremely painful.
― one way street, Monday, 17 October 2016 03:26 (seven years ago) link
My own uncool (or just hypocritical) belief: I do think as a general rule it's better not to ascribe a gender to strangers before they've articulated it themselves, especially because there isn't a consistent code of presentation among nonbinary people; but in my own case, I would pretty much always rather have other people correctly infer my gender than ask me how I identify.
― one way street, Monday, 17 October 2016 03:35 (seven years ago) link
people should be allowed to own guns, just not ammunition. Like one day we'll have old cars, too, but you'll only be able to buy gasoline for them with a bunch of annoying paperwork and a trip to the heavily regulated special purpose fuels dispensary. this is not an uncool conservative belief, sorry.
― El Tomboto, Monday, 17 October 2016 03:40 (seven years ago) link
i remember that chris rock routine (we don't need gun control, we need bullet control)
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Monday, 17 October 2016 03:42 (seven years ago) link
isn't that a chris rock joke lol xp
― k3vin k., Monday, 17 October 2016 03:46 (seven years ago) link
guns should be repurposed to shoot cereal IMO
― Neanderthal, Monday, 17 October 2016 03:47 (seven years ago) link
I hope it doesn't make me a bad ally, but I find takes like this SO FUCKING EXHAUSTING TO READ
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2016/10/white-feminists-gotta-go-amy-schumer-and-white-womens-foolishness/
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 27 October 2016 14:46 (seven years ago) link
I don't even disagree with her, but it's a combination of the writing style and the immense political weight being put on a fucking music video.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 27 October 2016 15:06 (seven years ago) link
some impressive wokeness one-upmanship in the comments:
I agree with this in large part, but I think that the author's argument is undermined by the lack of nuance relative to racial identification of Schumer and Silverman as white. While I would agree that the colonization of black women's fantasies are activites closely associated with the performance of whiteness, I would enjoy reading a piece that theorizes Schumer's behavior as a reinscription of whitness by a Jewish woman who has taken on the label of white as a means for passing in a largely European Christian nation. Jews pass for white all the time and, by and large, most people consider them white. Most Jews hold and exercise white privilege much of the time, but, again, I think it is important to trace out that what Silverman and Schumer are doing is adopting white racist behavior in ways that have specific dimensions not attended to in this post. I find it deeply disturbing that Schumer has chosen to use her ability to pass as white to this end when she should be thinking about ways to undermine whiteness. I believe that the assimilation of Jews into white America is one of the worst things that has happened to our culture and has led to mindlessly racist humor such as we see here with Schumer.
(worried that rolling my eyes at that is uncool/conservative, idk)
― - SOLO - Pink Dolphin, Bubbling Cassina (frog), Indris, Monkeys, Tiger (soref), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:16 (seven years ago) link
the assimilation of Jews into white America is one of the worst things that has happened to our culture and has led to mindlessly racist humor such as we see here with Schumer
can you imagine thinking like this?
― harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:22 (seven years ago) link
i would honestly prefer that sort of nuanced, ambivalent thinking to the sort of stuff that dominates in the current twitter hot-take wokeconomy, where people form conclusions first and then figure out why as they fill up their word count
― k3vin k., Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:26 (seven years ago) link
WHITE PEOPLE SUCK -- MY TAKE
I get into a lot of conversations about this, and what a coworker explained to me is that language that used to be reserved for academic thinking — "black bodies," "misogynoir," "heteronormative," — has filtered into the writing of the daily thinkpiece grind and the occasional Katy Perry tweet
I think to get the daily dose of 10 grafs, a statement that any liberal with a working brain can agree with (ie, "Amy Schumer shouldn't be so careless in satirizing black protest") turns into a term paper ("This narrow and basic conception of feminism patronizingly tells black women and other women of color to “lean in” while categorically ignoring the structural impact of racism, sexism, xenophobia, cis-sexism, homophobia, hyperincarceration and classism in our lives.")
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:28 (seven years ago) link
i agree w/ much of the recent posts itt
― marcos, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:34 (seven years ago) link
*many
i get the desire to explain issues in this manner and it doesn't put me off, but it makes me cringe bc i know it's going to make people who need to be reached just shut down and stop listening.
― nomar, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:35 (seven years ago) link
I kind of checked out of reading this stuff a couple years ago. my sympathies go out to those in working media who still have to read it on a daily basis
― flopson, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:38 (seven years ago) link
agree w/that take whiney.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:39 (seven years ago) link
whiney otm
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:40 (seven years ago) link
Also:
This narrow and basic conception of feminism patronizingly tells black women and other women of color to “lean in” while categorically ignoring the structural impact of racism, sexism, xenophobia, cis-sexism, homophobia, hyperincarceration and classism in our lives.
It is why Donald Trump would heartily win the presidential election if only white women voted, but “women” are being named as the constituency that “will defeat Donald Trump on election day.”
No, narrow conceptions of feminism are not why Trump is winning among white women. Nope.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:42 (seven years ago) link
er, actually may be misreading that sentence nm
Still, I doubt Trump is winning the popular vote among white women and the results there probably have a lot more to do with the electoral college and the awkward conceit of the exercise.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:44 (seven years ago) link
does it really need to be said that "a belief that is not in the 95th percentile of performative wokeitude" is not the same thing as "a conservative belief"?
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:44 (seven years ago) link
racism, sexism, xenophobia, cis-sexism, homophobia, hyperincarceration and classism
is there a way to write intersectionally without having to list every intersection every time?
― flopson, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:45 (seven years ago) link
lol eephus
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:45 (seven years ago) link
the infinite "wokeness" outbidding in leftist discourse is sort of a primary feature of the left since the enlightenment, but the absence of any specific situational or pragmatic context in online world makes it seem especially silly and irrelevant. The whole "why should we care about this" part is implicitly answered by "because people will click on it." Which is to say it's a fancy form of bitchy gossip devoid of actual political relevance.
And to walk back my uncool conservatism I think there's a parallel development on the right with regard to how extreme and "pure" your anti-liberalism is which reaches its logical conclusion in paranoia and the half-baked talk of revolution.
― ryan, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:53 (seven years ago) link
yeah i think you have the two "pure" extremes reacting against one another and tugging the moderates away from each other, like the pure hatred of liberalism leads to the unforgiving shaming of anything not purely woke and liberal and vice versa.
― nomar, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:56 (seven years ago) link
I've tried to argue elsewhere that what we've been seeing is a steady denigration of "the political" understood as the accommodation of competing value systems and replaced it with a kind of moral absolutism on all sides.
― ryan, Thursday, 27 October 2016 16:59 (seven years ago) link
if occasional quiet eye-rolling at wokeaholics is an uncool conservative belief, i guess i have it. other than that i'm mostly ignoring my latent uncool conservative beliefs atm.
― mystery local boy (rushomancy), Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:04 (seven years ago) link
Imo there's been a lot of compromise on both sides in closing the gap between normal liberals and those making calls for 'extreme woke purity', in the past few years. or I've just started ignoring the latter more lol
― flopson, Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:07 (seven years ago) link
xp that's a tough one. marxists notwithstanding, i think the whole "working hard is the mark of an exemplary human" is some conservative bullshit. tune in and drop out, imo
― brimstead, Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:09 (seven years ago) link
woking hard
― Mordy, Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:53 (seven years ago) link
way out of my depth, sorry for that post
― brimstead, Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:57 (seven years ago) link
https://www.foodal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/How-to-Use-A-Wok-For-Stir-Frying-Steaming.jpg
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:59 (seven years ago) link
that ain't wokin, that's the way you do it
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:59 (seven years ago) link
just add hoisin sauce
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 27 October 2016 18:02 (seven years ago) link
last post feels so long ago
― sarahell, Sunday, 13 November 2016 01:50 (seven years ago) link
don't blame me i voted for hoisin sauce
― qualx, Sunday, 13 November 2016 21:07 (seven years ago) link
i cling desperately to my wok, don't take my wok away from me
― brimstead, Monday, 14 November 2016 01:07 (seven years ago) link
don't wok away, in silence
― sarahell, Monday, 14 November 2016 01:16 (seven years ago) link
I don't want anymore green places to be built over. I hope it isn't necessary to accommodate everyone with homes.
Metallic vehicles generally look like shit.
Community is important but a lot of socialists and communists who talk about it creep me out (creepy communism). That horrible "brothers and sisters" unearned friendliness that reeks of falseness. "Come and link arms and we shall sing and dance on tables like hobbits". People who act like they want to live inside bland communist propaganda art. I don't much like the idea of knowing much about most of my neighbours and I think a lot of people need more distance sometimes. Alone time seems to have become underrated.
Acronyms should be used very sparingly.
Pop star/celebrity images and memes on social media are vulgar.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 00:50 (seven years ago) link
I hope it isn't necessary to accommodate everyone with homes.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 00:50
I mean I hope it isn't necessary for their homes to be built over green areas.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 00:53 (seven years ago) link
It's not; are you lobbying your local municipality for drastic upzoning of single family housing in the next fifty years?
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 02:01 (seven years ago) link
Haven't read all the above, but...
* tattoos almost invariably ugly and stupid-looking* professional childcare is bad for children under kindergarten age
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 02:32 (seven years ago) link
I'm not crazy about tats either
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 02:54 (seven years ago) link
So no Melville body art lined up for you, then?
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 04:32 (seven years ago) link
It is possible to overcorrect against repression and create new problems, including more repression.Lefties are really bad at using shame, which doesn't stop them from using it all the time.
― Three Word Username, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 08:53 (seven years ago) link
Getting from age 0 to 5 without professional childcare generally requires gobs of privilege btw
this is true:
Lefties are really bad at using shame, which doesn't stop them from using it all the time.
Yeah the shame-ee needs to agree with the shamer about what is and what is not shameful. If "omg Nazis love Trump, how can any person still support him?" were a tactic that worked, it would have worked Nov. 8. If it didn't work Nov. 8, it's not going to suddenly start working on Nov. 23.
― marzipandemonium (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 15:07 (seven years ago) link
professional childcare is quite sparse in a lot of the world
― ogmor, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 15:09 (seven years ago) link
So are incomes above the global poverty line.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:09 (seven years ago) link
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ba/e5/c6/bae5c6fb7ca7c30db5aaf86a68920523.jpg
― flopson, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:39 (seven years ago) link
i don't find any comfort in having uncool conservative beliefs anymore :(
― I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:41 (seven years ago) link
same, uncool conservative beliefs are now officially out of style for me
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:48 (seven years ago) link
the daycare thing is kind of complicated, right? James could be correct that "professional childcare is bad for children under kindergarten age", but free or cheap daycare could still be beneficial overall if it allows parents who would otherwise not be able to afford it to go back to work, etc. there was recently a debate about it here (Quebec), where we have 5$/day daycare through a combo of public and subsidized private daycares, but also a publicized study showing that it had averse effects on some measures of kids' "non-cognitive skills". bit counter-intuitive for me but I asked my mom (who runs a daycare) about it and she suggested some possible channels
― flopson, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:49 (seven years ago) link
I'm not convinced it's clearly better to be home all day with a parent through age 5, depends a lot on what they have available to them. It's not really realistic for a stay-home parent to plan enriching activities all day every day, and the social aspect seems good too. I think a lot depends on the quality of the care as well.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:51 (seven years ago) link
Like being in preschool for 6 hours might be an improvement on 2 hrs of television and 4 hours of indoor play alone.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:52 (seven years ago) link
ya, I suspect it's about quality. some of the daycares are just in someone's house with like 1 or 2 other kids
― flopson, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:56 (seven years ago) link
new UCB: the modern/american need to make everything plain & explicit is a plague that fosters poor reading comprehension, cripples discourse, and indicates a deeper malaise in how people conceive of themselves & the world
― ogmor, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 16:57 (seven years ago) link
yea the childcare thing is very complicated. part of our decision to move to a cheaper city was based (among many factors) on the opportunity for my wife to stay at home w/ the boys and we are super grateful for that. for us it has been awesome. but she's worked incredibly hard to build a varied and active schedule for them that includes all different kinds of activities, including preschool at two different places for our older son, music classes, stuff at the library, also some various types of therapy for our older son who has special needs.
― I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 17:04 (seven years ago) link
i used to have uncool conservative beliefs, but apparently they're now uncool radical leftist beliefs.
― xiphoid beetlebum (rushomancy), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 17:07 (seven years ago) link
being in preschool for 6 hours might be an improvement on 2 hrs of television and 4 hours of indoor play alone
My 2 year old is in a small daycare with 4-5 other kids run by a woman out of her house and absolutely loves it. He gets bored with just my wife and I over long weekends or school breaks and starts asking for the other kids and the woman by name, tries to put his shoes and jacket on to leave, etc. I don't think the two of us could really provide the level of social interaction that he obviously loves and thrives on.
When I was a kid my mom didn't work, my aunt across the street didn't work, nor did a majority of the other women in our neighborhood who had kids and they could all get together and let the kids play at a park or someone's house. Now out of all the people I know with kids there are only 2 full-time stay-at-home parents.
― joygoat, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 17:24 (seven years ago) link
Reveal Your Uncool Conservative Beliefs Here [Started by sarahell in August 2016, last updated three minutes ago by joygoat on I Love AFL] 21 new answersrae sremmurd - sremmlife (6 jan 2015) [Started by lex pretend in December 2014, last updated four minutes ago by billstevejim on I Love Music] 7 new answers
still writes itself
― imago, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 17:29 (seven years ago) link
My mom was a stay-at-home mom but she still put me in daycare and I've never thought about that before now and now I feel kinda weird about it...
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 19:04 (seven years ago) link
if parents have the financial resources, they should avoid their children as much as possible in order to build the childrens' independence and self-reliance
― sarahell, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:10 (seven years ago) link
I love my 3 year old daughter and all, but daycare is a fucking godsend. If I had to watch her 24/7, I'd probably lose it. I also like that she goes to a center with lots of other kids. She learns all kinds of crazy shit from them that she then brings home.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 20:34 (seven years ago) link
Really surprised to hear how many of you enjoy religious ceremonies, must have had more banging hymns than I did. I assumed that even most true believers can't wait until they're over.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Sunday, 11 December 2016 23:02 (seven years ago) link
my sect has some pretty sick niggunim it's true
― Mordy, Sunday, 11 December 2016 23:44 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY-byj30cXEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sml7M66pOk0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF8RZd3yu-khttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwOedcw58gk
^ this is along the lines of what I grew up with at church; holy ghost feels a lot more real when accompanied by these voices
― A big shout out goes to the lamb chops, thos lamb chops (ulysses), Monday, 12 December 2016 00:49 (seven years ago) link
that's racist Mordy
― sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Monday, 12 December 2016 01:09 (seven years ago) link
If someone is going to do a war, there's no real reason not to do it with drones.
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Friday, 13 January 2017 02:00 (seven years ago) link
European right wingers are probably right that they're facing a demographic social catastrophe. Otoh fuck Europe. This one maybe a wash.
― Mordy, Friday, 13 January 2017 02:08 (seven years ago) link
xp perpetual war
― Sufjan Grafton, Friday, 13 January 2017 02:12 (seven years ago) link
That seems like a weird one for you to say since it's so consonant with neonazi/white supremacist ideology. I'm sure you mean it in a different way. I'm a little sensitive for all the Eurocentric save-the-west fascists popping up on every other twitter thread I open.
― bamcquern, Friday, 13 January 2017 02:14 (seven years ago) link
They could be correct on the facts (above replacement immigration population plus below replacement native European population = predictable results) and still who gives a fuck let someone else be in charge over there.
― Mordy, Friday, 13 January 2017 02:16 (seven years ago) link
I'm glad wet foot/dry foot is gone.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 13 January 2017 02:17 (seven years ago) link
I am agnostic on drones -- it seems like a tradeoff btw less full-scale war vs more low-grade perpetual war.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 13 January 2017 04:25 (seven years ago) link
thread for awkward radical opinions where we talk thru it being appropriate to have some skin in the game if you are imposing death abroad
― schlump, Friday, 13 January 2017 04:49 (seven years ago) link
if you're doing war and you're concerned w/ sportsmanship you're doing war wrong
― Mordy, Friday, 13 January 2017 04:51 (seven years ago) link
the only appropriate tools for war are the children of the rich
― difficult listening hour, Friday, 13 January 2017 06:12 (seven years ago) link
wait i fucked this thread up
i know this is a safe space here but lol @ "native" European population
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 13 January 2017 07:46 (seven years ago) link
US governments have never had a very firm grasp on the Monroe doctrine, dunno if this is conservative or not, basically fuck a nu-colonialist of any stripe
― Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Friday, 13 January 2017 08:52 (seven years ago) link
They could be correct on the facts
Except they aren't.
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Friday, 13 January 2017 12:33 (seven years ago) link
charter schools are probably fine and maybe even good for students overall
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 18:38 (seven years ago) link
They can be fine considered on their own, sure. So long as they can be implemented in a way that doesn't hamstring traditional public schools.
Unfortunately, per-pupil costs don't capture the economies of scale involved. The traditional "default" public schools are still obligated to keep lots of doors open and lots of roofs non-leaky and lots of buses running no matter what schools people choose. Private and charter schools don't have the same obligations - they can open when they like, accept the students they want, and close when they stop making economic sense. Those options aren't open to most public school jurisdictions, so it's not a fair competition.
Vouchers still suck BTW
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 6 February 2017 19:25 (seven years ago) link
charter schools are a shell game being put forward by people with vested monetary or religious interests and their (sometimes well-meaning) political pawns
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 19:27 (seven years ago) link
I think Mordy's not denying that. My nieces attend an excellent charter school but I recognize the system is a shuck designed to dismantle public education.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2017 19:28 (seven years ago) link
there are a ton of terrible charter schools, too; esp. the for-profit ones.
― horseshoe, Monday, 6 February 2017 19:30 (seven years ago) link
imo if you send kids to a charter school and there are public schools available you are a scab
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 19:57 (seven years ago) link
are public schools unavailable in some areas?
― k3vin k., Monday, 6 February 2017 19:58 (seven years ago) link
xxxp plus those specifically geared to produce compliant workers for a hungry industry, e.g., the J.W. Marriott High School for Future Hotel Maids.
Or the Steve Jobs Academy for Immigrant Children with Tiny Hands Who Don't Mind Inhaling Toxic Dust.
Go SJAfICwTHWDMITD, the Fightin' Dusties!
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 6 February 2017 20:00 (seven years ago) link
I will give a pass to montessori-style institutions for alternative class structuring but our local public school district has one of those, too
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:01 (seven years ago) link
78% of New Orleans students are in charter schools, and all but five of the schools in that district are charter schools
It's one of those things where reform is painted as an impossibility (because reform involves work and administrative costs and is therefore Too Hard) and the solution is proposed to circumvent all existing structures and start schools over from scratch using charters. Areas with economic blight or natural disasters are targets for full shifts.
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:05 (seven years ago) link
the other driver has been the bottom-up dismantling of social institutions by republican governors coinciding with national/regional efforts like No Child Left Behind -- demands being put on institutions to change their ways or conform to metrics (shifting metrics, since NCLB had a lot of flaws) without enough time, training, or funding to make those changes. prime opportunity for a charter school that was built from the ground up to conform to current regulations to step in
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:08 (seven years ago) link
also conservatives are right that liberals who send their kids to private schools and then oppose charter schools on the grounds that they're bad for the public schools are hypocrites.
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:11 (seven years ago) link
if I had kids and lived in an area with a mixture of schools, I'd probably be the parent who makes token arguments to my spouse about how we should be sending our kids to public school but gives up when my partner argues for a local private one
the only private schools available when I was a kid were parochial ones and the magnet high school I went to easily smoked them on course selection and quality of education
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:17 (seven years ago) link
i'm sending my kids to private schools. nb that they are orthodox jewish schools so maybe i could cite that as a pass for why i'm not a hypocrite - and the public school districts in my neighborhood are routinely considered among the best in the country - but still, if you aren't sending your kids to the local public schools it takes some chutzpah to complain about vouchers.
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:19 (seven years ago) link
the catholic high school kind of notoriously had some non-catholic athletes who were given scholarships to attend catholic high school. hmm.
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:22 (seven years ago) link
Sorry, wrong.
Private schools are privately funded, paid for via tuition, alumni gifts, and so forth.
Charter schools are publicly funded, paid for via various grifts that all basically amount to the government contracting for a service.
I would never send my kid to a charter school, but I'm okay with private schools, the same way I believe rich people can pay for premium home security and premium firefighting services if they want. But charter schools are bullshit.
― El Tomboto, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:44 (seven years ago) link
i think you misunderstand the critique. it's that if you buy your way out of the schools when it comes to your kids but don't allow ppl with less money than you get their kids out of the [presumably] inferior publicly run schooling, maybe it's not hypocrisy exactly but it's something gross. it's even worse maybe bc you're saying that only ppl w/ money deserve privately run education.
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:48 (seven years ago) link
Charter schools could be fine and maybe good if they were regulated to within an inch of their lives, but the actual reality is that even the good ones are there to skim off taxpayer funds to enrich their operators, and this becomes nakedly apparent from time to time, usually with no consideration for, you know, the well-being of the children enrolled in them (hey look cheap real estate opened up across town! dear moms and dads, prepare to drive!)
― El Tomboto, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:49 (seven years ago) link
I'm only aghast at private schools when it's clear the area has a really harsh private/public divide that mirrors a really stark income disparity and the public schools are underfunded
my friend who lived in Baton Rouge for a few years noted this was the case in part of Louisiana -- voters who went to bad public schools would get all ramped up for candidates who vowed to cut spending and lower taxes, public schools would get even less funding, and the politicians and moneyed class all sent their kids to private school anyway
the charter school mess is similar -- in some areas, the school board's influence is limited to the public schools and charter schools report to a city administrator. theoretically you could boot the charter company or have financial links to performance and oversight, but it doesn't really flush out that way. you just end up with a line item for education.
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:51 (seven years ago) link
Mordy, that critique is mistaking the personal for the political, which is a logical fallacy beloved by conservatives, and I am surprised you fell for it
― El Tomboto, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:52 (seven years ago) link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_personal_is_political
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:52 (seven years ago) link
only ppl w/ money deserve privately run education
if you really hate the people who go to private school, you can say this with a sneer
because yeah buddy, you and the school where the nuns hit your kids with yardsticks, sure whatever
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:53 (seven years ago) link
Have you noticed the thread title, TOMBOT
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2017 20:53 (seven years ago) link
yeah the phrase "the personal is political" and the concept Tom is going for here are definitely different, but conflating the two is actually exactly what he is going for
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:54 (seven years ago) link
also, lol Alfred
as a little kid I lived down the street from a family who sent their sons to private high school. they were the parents who had their kids host parties at their home, because at least then, *their* kids wouldn't be the teens driving home drunk
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 20:56 (seven years ago) link
I swear I could use words better to win arguments had I gone to a fake private school paid for with public funds
― El Tomboto, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:06 (seven years ago) link
How many of you attended public schools?
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:07 (seven years ago) link
I went to public school for first grade and my parents disliked it so much that they pulled me out and sent me to private for the rest of my education.
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:08 (seven years ago) link
well of course! they weren't supposed to attend it with you, no wonder they disliked it
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:11 (seven years ago) link
I went to public school K-12, in probably two of the best public school systems in the country. The idea of "bad public schools" is utterly foreign to me
― softie (silby), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:15 (seven years ago) link
i don't have any friends who went to private school
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:16 (seven years ago) link
#classwar
I'm starting to think that people with really good public school experiences are way too few
mine wasn't uniformly good -- we had a couple useless teachers in my elementary that a new principal cleared out, and my middle school had some serious discipline problems until we got a new principal. some sort of common thread, there.
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:16 (seven years ago) link
where i grew up my elementary school was i think excellent. the middle school was ok, pretty fun times iirc. high school sucked. i think a lot of it had to do with the football team having like 17 coaches, all of them teachers or staff, all of them being more devoted to the football team than teaching. football is probably, out of all the official activities of high school, the worst thing about high school.
― nomar, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:19 (seven years ago) link
football is a disease and a fascist vanguard and children shouldn't be exposed to it
― softie (silby), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:21 (seven years ago) link
My only experience with public school was university.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:22 (seven years ago) link
Afaict you're paying for it one way or the other either thru private school or thru your expensive mortgage and high school taxes I don't see a huge difference class between private and public school students when we are talking about well funded public schools of the wealthy.
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:22 (seven years ago) link
after high school I realized I hadn't met any gay individuals in 4 years there, and a ton of my ex-classmates came out in the years after. realized when thinking back how toxic the environment was to the gay community back then, it was no accident.
I am guessing it's probably not as bad anymore since the country's acceptance has improved, but I feel like kids that went to other schools than mine had an easier time coming out in high school.
― Neanderthal, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:23 (seven years ago) link
local-tax-base-driven school funding is also unconscionable, in WA it's actually unconstitutional and the state legislature is in contempt of court for taking a million years to deal with it xp
― softie (silby), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:24 (seven years ago) link
xxp yeah, see, that's actually more of a flaw of public schools in practice -- the ones in more affluent areas will have kids that have had the benefits of living in affluent families and parents in that part of the district might spend more time at the school or donate in fundraisers, etc
in theory, funds are allocated by number of students and the needs of students in that area. in a larger city, that's more flat. affluent suburbs, not so much
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:26 (seven years ago) link
silby otm, depending on the state/area how school funds are allocated varies and the different factors taken into account are political
there are a number of rural/sparse areas where schools are becoming consolidated and, while larger high schools are somewhat of a norm, the distance and amount of time kids are in transit to go to school becomes yet another factor. so you have student needs, economic disparity, distance to school, facility age and condition, and so many other things vying for priority in funding
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 21:30 (seven years ago) link
I tend to agree that funding schools by locality leads inevitably to educational disparities that mirror economic ones. The antidotes to that involve decoupling education from the local/state level and basically federalizing it.
Which is a topic for "Reveal Your Probably Unachievable Liberal Dreams Here," not "Reveal Your Uncool Conservative Beliefs Here."
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 6 February 2017 21:59 (seven years ago) link
my belief is that no matter how much school funding you give northern florida, it's not going to do any good
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 22:02 (seven years ago) link
Thanks to one of the most devastating SCOTUS decisions of my lifetime yet no one discusses it: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1972/71-1332
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2017 22:03 (seven years ago) link
were you... a baby in 1973? still blame you for not protesting this
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 22:31 (seven years ago) link
I was a zygote, an elegant one.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 February 2017 22:43 (seven years ago) link
I was public schooled from pre- through college. Is this really a rare thing?
― Οὖτις, Monday, 6 February 2017 22:51 (seven years ago) link
I was too, all that proves is that a dude who goes to class enough to get Cs can get a college degree
― Neanderthal, Monday, 6 February 2017 22:54 (seven years ago) link
(tbf I went to more like 75% of my classes my last year as opposed to like, 40% the other years)
I went through public schools from preschool through grade 12 and then attended a land grant public university
And I post to ilx
― mh 😏, Monday, 6 February 2017 23:50 (seven years ago) link
my mom put me in a catholic school in second grade, i'm not entirely sure why other than she was catholic, but i think it was because i got bullied a lot. spoiler alert - it didn't help. high school i went back to public school.
anyway where i grew up got gentrified like five minutes after i was born so i had the option of world-class public schools, which most people don't.
― increasingly bonkers (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 00:01 (seven years ago) link
Public/private/charter teacher here. Informed opinion says choice is good, etc., but most charters are profiteering wastelands. And among the charters that are good, many are good /because/ they skim high/low income, ethnic majority/minority students from/to neighborhood publics. IOW some charters good. But many good charters are good because they are re/segregating along the prejudices of the charter's beneficiary population.
― rb (soda), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 01:12 (seven years ago) link
Notwithstanding that, teacher workload in well-resourced public schools is pretty awful, and kept in check only by labor contracts. Charters don't even benefit from those contracts. Non-union teachers are often far less experienced, on the whole less well trained, and burn our more quickly than career educators. Until charters will work w/ unions they're gonna stay (mostly) lower tier.
― rb (soda), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 01:16 (seven years ago) link
and throwing all the special needs kids and behavior issues back into the local PS system
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 01:17 (seven years ago) link
I'm 100% public school btw, went to a state university too until I dropped out
my high school also produced a rhodes scholar
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 01:31 (seven years ago) link
I live a couple blocks from this high school, went to the city's magnet high school with a couple of the people listed as 99/00 notable alumnihttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt_High_School_(Des_Moines)#Notable_alumni
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 01:53 (seven years ago) link
i went to public school k-12 and a public university
― example (crüt), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 02:08 (seven years ago) link
same
― Brad C., Tuesday, 7 February 2017 02:11 (seven years ago) link
me 2
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 02:54 (seven years ago) link
My parents were both teachers. Both were reflexively liberal, both believed fervently in public education, and all of us went to public schools PreK-grad.
And yet! My mother taught in Catholic schools most of her career, at least partly because she preferred the behavior of Catholic schoolkids.
My father, in contrast, taught at a military school (oddly, a public magnet), where many of his students ended up because no other place would take them.
I think my daughter's school would be considered a magnet school. I guess? It's public and free but it's apparently very desirable so admission is by lottery. Our district calls it a "county-wide school" (as opposed to the "neighborhood school" where my son goes). She's been there five years and I still don't understand what's different about it.
It's all a vast tapestry.
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 03:07 (seven years ago) link
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, February 6, 2017 4:03 PM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i teach in the school district of the plaintiff from this case. this was the first case iirc in which all of nixon's FOUR appointees were on the bench. fuck richard nixon.
and fuck charter schools, fucking parasites.
― if young satchmo don't trumpet i'm gon shoot you (m bison), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 04:06 (seven years ago) link
cass sunstein argues that saisd v. rodriguez was the end of the court's gradual evolution to understand that the constitution guaranteed social and economic rights.
im a gov/econ teacher and last semester i taught the saisd v. rodriguez case alongside its subsequent state court case edgewood v. kirby (plaintiff won, creates the "robin hood" system which texas has jacked with over time)
― if young satchmo don't trumpet i'm gon shoot you (m bison), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 04:13 (seven years ago) link
public school k-12 then "prestigious east coast private university" -- was definitely at a disadvantage there, and the economic disparity of education in America was really clear to me. Had various classes where fellow students discussed false consciousness and Marxism and the evils of WalMart. I was the only one in the class that had a family that shopped at WalMart, that grew up where everyone shopped at WalMart. Loved their WalMart did the citizens of my stupid town.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:34 (seven years ago) link
Most college students shouldn't go to college. Especially humanities students.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:38 (seven years ago) link
he may have stopped posting, but his spirit still lives on
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:43 (seven years ago) link
lol not my own original belief
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:43 (seven years ago) link
we both know this
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:44 (seven years ago) link
I teach writing and journalism. Mordy is partly right.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:45 (seven years ago) link
Possibly true in the US, less so in countries with a better cost / quality ratio.
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:51 (seven years ago) link
Not if ILX is any indication.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:52 (seven years ago) link
I am a strong proponent of the fact most people can learn through conversation, classes, etc. and become more informed and more analytical
then again, I remember the guy who was in one of my college literature courses who was dumb as a brick
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:54 (seven years ago) link
It's not that student writing is terrible; it's that 98 percent of it is an unending storm of mediocrity and received ideas.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:57 (seven years ago) link
I think the problem isn't really 'too many people going to college to goof off and read cool books' the problem is our country hasn't set up its funding and cost control very well. it doesn't really have to be that expensive to let people goof off and read cool books.
― iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:59 (seven years ago) link
What else are 18-22 year olds supposed to do with their lives? It isn't like we have the military need for conscription.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 17:59 (seven years ago) link
play video games? more productive imo than another mildly intelligent bloke misunderstanding foucault passages.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:02 (seven years ago) link
neither of these are very productive
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:04 (seven years ago) link
no, but video games are cheaper and don't put you into 20 years of debt.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:05 (seven years ago) link
if we remove debt from the equation ... also, who will pay the living and upkeep expenses for the video game players?
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:08 (seven years ago) link
mildly intelligent bloke misunderstanding foucault passages.
i resemble that remark.
actually here's a conservative opinion: we should have comprehensive "great books" style education in high school. (but my liberal side would insist on quite a bit of diversity in that designation). less "critical thinking" skills (that's for college) more "you have to read this to graduate."
― ryan, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:10 (seven years ago) link
college is wasted on 18-22 year olds
― flopson, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:14 (seven years ago) link
college admission at 23 rather than 18 would seem preferable, wouldn't it
― imago, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:22 (seven years ago) link
you all still haven't offered a credible alternative to what to do with the 18-22 year olds
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:24 (seven years ago) link
send the ones who most resemble Jake Gyllenhaal to me.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:25 (seven years ago) link
conscription to build and improve infrastructure
― softie (silby), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:27 (seven years ago) link
some kind of public service thing would be cool
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:29 (seven years ago) link
hunger games style reality show
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:30 (seven years ago) link
IDK, some people are emotionally ready at 18. I wasn't and nor were most of my peers
oh, what to do with the adulthood-delusion set? they can study, read, work, socially develop at home - there should be an infrastructure for them that precedes college, including funded study materials for the poorest ones
― imago, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:30 (seven years ago) link
and social clubs in their locales
an extra five years to work out what/if you'll study at college would be a godsend to most
― imago, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:32 (seven years ago) link
They should all be forming bands that are a mix between The Stone Roses and Primal Scream with the swagger of Oasis. That's what happened under Thatcher.
― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:33 (seven years ago) link
paid-for nonsense college is a good step towards universal basic income
I guess this is probably the wrong thread for that opinion
― iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:38 (seven years ago) link
it's less wrong than imago's opinion
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:40 (seven years ago) link
why not skip the middle man and just give the money directly to the future judith butler scholars of america
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:48 (seven years ago) link
I would imagine that the % of american college students who have heard of or read judith butler is probably like 5%. ilx is not a very representative place.
― iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:51 (seven years ago) link
we should really be working to get that number down to .01%
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:53 (seven years ago) link
― iatee, Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:51 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
id guess even lower tbh
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:54 (seven years ago) link
haha yeah I went to berkeley and I'm not even sure it would be 20% there
― iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:55 (seven years ago) link
you guys might be right that it's a low number but somehow that low number has an oversized presence on campuses and in the social justice and activism worlds - or at the very least they know the name and they know eg that butler said that gender and sex aren't the same thing even if they've never read a page of her work.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:57 (seven years ago) link
berkeley is such an overrated educational institution
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:58 (seven years ago) link
did u know at berkeley idiot undergrad students can get credits for taking courses taught by other idiot undergrad students?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:59 (seven years ago) link
idk i don't really feel like those groups/people have an oversized presence on campuses
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:59 (seven years ago) link
xps
I got 1 credit for a scrabble class
― iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 18:59 (seven years ago) link
tbf I am very good at scrabble now
xp then somehow my entire educational career i happened to run over and over into the tiny minority of students who knew judith butler's name. maybe i should've hung out w/ the business school kids more.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:00 (seven years ago) link
i think, outside of prestigious ivys and their ilk, you can pretty much graduate most colleges without reading any book other than a textbook.
― ryan, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:01 (seven years ago) link
It's very Mordy to think that the ideas of judith butler have any meaningful influence on anything but a vanishingly small slice of college students
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:03 (seven years ago) link
I read "judith butler" a handful of times just now before finally figuring out she's not the nytimes writer who is a hypocrite because she was for the iraq invasion -- that was judith miller, I think
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:03 (seven years ago) link
I mean let me put it this way, I went to an ivy league college at the height of high theory and even I don't REALLY know who she is, i know she wrote a book about cyborgs but I could not tell you one thing about what that book says.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:04 (seven years ago) link
Tbf I lived in NYC and knew a lot of NYU English Lit kids and New School students. I knew more than one person doing a thesis on Foucault. Clearly it was who I was attracting and I got a poor impression from my limited anecdotal experiences.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:05 (seven years ago) link
i guess i know gender and sex are different things but i don't think i know what either one of them is according to judith butler
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:05 (seven years ago) link
i went to an extremely politically active university in DC as an undergrad, no one really read butler except for a few people in philosophy classes. i've worked at five other colleges and universities since then, the only one of these where people likely to read judith butler had a large presence was at hampshire college and even there i doubt 50% knew who judith butler is. i could be wrong though
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:05 (seven years ago) link
― ryan, Tuesday, February 14, 2017 2:01 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yea i agree
xp right, i think the absolutely critical point here is that NYU students are in no way shape or form "most college students"
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:06 (seven years ago) link
i swear tho that this seemed to me like ubiquitous knowledge when i was in college
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:06 (seven years ago) link
a friend of mine is a prof at the local ivy league institution and is convinced CONVINCED that judith butler has infected the minds of all of his students but, like, unless she has grown in stature in the last fifteen years, i'm not buying it. i was an english major at the same institution and read maybe two things by butler in a theory course.
― jason waterfalls (gbx), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:07 (seven years ago) link
clearly i'm a weirdo tho. if i was drawing conclusions based on my high school experience i'd assume everyone was more or less familiar w/ the works of moshe chaim luzzatto
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:08 (seven years ago) link
at least i am awake enough to realize /that/ was not representative
http://www.themarysue.com/judith-butler-explained-with-cats/
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:08 (seven years ago) link
do you feel like most yeshiva students don't belong there mordy?
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:09 (seven years ago) link
tbh the most widely known and talked-about intellectual at my undergrad institution was samuel huntington
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:09 (seven years ago) link
fukuyama too probably. nobody talked about butler and i hung around the most far-left intersectional activists and professors on campus
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:11 (seven years ago) link
derrida more popular than butler too among the lefty philosophers i knew
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:12 (seven years ago) link
people in the architecture department knew who gilles deleuze was but half the philosophy department had no idea
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:12 (seven years ago) link
nobody talked about butler and i hung around the most far-left intersectional activists and professors on campus
― marcos, Tuesday, February 14, 2017 2:11 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
that's not accurate actually. i knew one professor who taught feminist philosophy and critical race theory and she mentioned but didnt even assign butler's readings
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:13 (seven years ago) link
judith butler is p big with anti-oppressive lesbian social worker types that i know, although many of them did not go to university.
i never heard her discussed in university - i studied mainly 18th century history so the performativity of gender perhaps wasn't germane (gladstone so cis)
― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:15 (seven years ago) link
my high school class had 14 students and went down to 9 students as some of the students couldn't hack it. of those 9? i think probably at least 8 of them should've been there. you need at least some bodies to produce the one or two major rabbis you want from every graduating class. obv i was a casualty but i like to think i did my small part to keep brisker talmudic traditions alive for another generation.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:19 (seven years ago) link
18-22 year olds should work and enjoy their lives
― flopson, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:20 (seven years ago) link
also i could be wrong that college is wasted on 18-22 year olds. maybe they all just do it twice?
― flopson, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:21 (seven years ago) link
I wish I'd picked up a double major or decided to stretch out another year by tacking a minor or two on, but again, money
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:24 (seven years ago) link
― Guayaquil (eephus!), 14. februar 2017 20:04 (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think you're thinking of Donna Haraway, who wrote the Cyborg Manifesto, the key book for understanding Jannelle Monae. Judith Butler wrote Gender Trouble, and her key insight relates to performativity, and her book is the key book for understanding Lady Gaga. But both of them pale in significance to Karen Barad, who wrote Meeting the Universe Halfway, which combines gender studies with quantum mechanics, and is the key book for understanding post-cartesian ontology.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:26 (seven years ago) link
damn i was hoping you'd have a third pop star for Barad
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:27 (seven years ago) link
Camille Paglia is more widely read than any of these
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:28 (seven years ago) link
the key book for understanding Jannelle Monae
...
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:29 (seven years ago) link
imago said
social clubs in their locales
I instantly thought this:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/quietus_production/images/articles/17532/V_2_Smiths_-quietus_1427661580_crop_550x830.jpg
And then Tom D said
They should all be forming bands
And I loled
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:29 (seven years ago) link
this can't possibly be true can it
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:31 (seven years ago) link
i'm not going to argue this as fiercely as deej in the t-shirt thread, but i would be surprised if it wasn't true
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:33 (seven years ago) link
well in my world of pretentious young ppl
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:34 (seven years ago) link
― Mordy, 14. februar 2017 20:27 (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Me too! I thought of just bullshitting and saying 'Grimes', but somehow someone would probably point out that that makes no sense.
Baradian semiotics. Severely underdeveloped.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:35 (seven years ago) link
almost every non-math or -science classes i took in college mentioned samuel huntington in some way
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:45 (seven years ago) link
i didn't hear huntington's name (or bernard lewis') once until after i graduated! and i went to a relatively conservative undergrad institution.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:46 (seven years ago) link
i heard of huntington only after 9/11. i did read fukuyama as an undergrad (on my own initiative) and it was sort of a handy introduction to hegel, iirc.
― ryan, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 19:53 (seven years ago) link
Marcos when did you work at Hampshire? That was where I attended undergrad (07-11). Heard at least one fellow student of mine use the nickname "Judy Buts"
― softie (silby), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:00 (seven years ago) link
I have never heard of Samuel Huntington.
― ryan, Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:01 PM (fifty-six minutes ago) Bookmark
this isn't true but even if it were, there is a reason why students aren't required to buy a bunch of books outside of their textbooksthey are expensive
you guys are revealing your educational privilege if you don't think there are plenty of non-traditional students who benefit substantially from college. my workplace was recently identified as #1 in the state in helping to raise the socioeconomic status of our students. #1!!
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:02 (seven years ago) link
i'm sure in some circumstances some colleges and some college degrees can raise a student's socioeconomic status. i think for many other colleges and many other students they are a trap to stick students with thousands of dollars in debt and, depending on their major, for an education that offers no value in the marketplace.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:05 (seven years ago) link
i understand that and yes, that is true SOME of the timebut to make sweeping generalizations is to discredit the very useful hard work SOME people are doing to improve their lives and their families' lives. it's making students like mine even more invisible than they already are. and i rightfully object to that.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:08 (seven years ago) link
― softie (silby), Tuesday, February 14, 2017 3:00 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
haha i was there from 08-09!!
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:10 (seven years ago) link
xp let's all endeavor to make un-invisible both those students benefiting from college educations and those trapped by them!
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:11 (seven years ago) link
ok let's :)
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:13 (seven years ago) link
i'm admittedly a little bitter bc i have an obscene amount of student debt even still. but the light at the end of the tunnel is in sight - i will be absolutely done by 2021 assuming i don't pay them off sooner.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:15 (seven years ago) link
I think the extent to which skills that were not (and to some extent, still are not) taught in primary education are now necessary not just for employment but for some level of engagement in social society is underrated.
For every debate we have about whether an academic writer was well-known by humanities majors, there's at least one college student out there who would benefit from a basic reading comprehension course. Some of this need is coming from the failure of public schools to keep up with shifting curriculum and testing requirements while under heavy fire. But a lot of it is the realization that individuals need a lot more career and skill mobility than in previous times.
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:17 (seven years ago) link
we're entering an era of highly resistant diseases and weakening antibiotics with no new ones in the development pipeline - a return to a more sexually conservative culture might not be a bad thing, and might be an inevitability. i just hope it happens in a way that's not perverse, ignorant and misogynistic (i'm not optimistic there)
― goole, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:19 (seven years ago) link
why do we need that when we have condoms?
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:21 (seven years ago) link
sorry i know this is a safe space for uncool conservative opinions
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:22 (seven years ago) link
if those worked we wouldn't be where we are
― goole, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:23 (seven years ago) link
it's gonna be all those senile boomers in retirement communities incubating antibiotic resistant syphilis
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:29 (seven years ago) link
Small world, I went to Amherst around the same time.
― Allen (etaeoe), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:34 (seven years ago) link
I have more uncool conservative beliefs than cool liberal ones
they're uncool with self-identifying conservatives too though
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:36 (seven years ago) link
The Pioneer Valley is the secret center of the universe
― softie (silby), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:37 (seven years ago) link
I'm quite sceptical of drawing/painting tablets. Some people can do drawings that look like they were done on paper but a lot of the colour and painted style images just look wrong and ugly to me. But I'd hope you can paint like an old master on them.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:42 (seven years ago) link
I think you're thinking of Donna Haraway, who wrote the Cyborg Manifesto,
oops yes I totally am
plus, I never read butler or haraway when i was in college (still haven't) but i did read lol camille paglia in college, shame on me
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 20:42 (seven years ago) link
not to be all uncool radical about this but the textbook racket has got to go. also a half dozen paperback books is about the same price as a massive and needlessly expensive textbook.
back to uncool conservative: higher education in particular needs to involve in-depth at-length seminar-style close reading of gobs of text and not glossy bullet points to be regurgitated on multiple choice tests.
― ryan, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:33 (seven years ago) link
btw i like butler fine but really recommend haraway. she's a trip. there's a new book where my former dissertation advisor interviews her that's quite good.
― ryan, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:37 (seven years ago) link
Here's an uncool conservative belief: don't bother w butler; outside one clever application of jl austin she hasn't got much going for her
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:38 (seven years ago) link
But, like, 99% of theorists are one-trick ponies, and Butler's trick was REALLY good.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:41 (seven years ago) link
I have no idea what's in chapter one of Discipline and Punish, for instance, but I had to read chapter two over and over and over...
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:42 (seven years ago) link
xp to ryan yeah i agree that the textbook industry is a racket but that doesn't change things really
just because it's easy for YOU to get a handful of paperbacks on the internet doesn't mean it's easy for every student enrolled in a course, much less every student in 12 different sections of a course to do so in a timely manner before their classes start. your leisure time and consumer expertise are showing.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:43 (seven years ago) link
i was so broke and textbooks so expensive when I was in college (12-15 years ago), I often bought older versions of the textbook on half.com and just figured I'd deal with any headache due to things missing from my book.
it was the only way i could take the classes really.
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:44 (seven years ago) link
I have no idea how the textbook racket is doing these days and am afraid to know
toward the end of my college years, one of my classmates (literally sat next to this dude in a couple classes) put together a textbook resale website that was just for our college at first. probably a few people at different schools did this, but his took off and did well enough he sold it.
before that, it was all trying to sell to your friends/neighbors or via bad classifieds, trying to figure out if instructors were requiring a new edition of a book, going to either the school-owned or independent bookstore to get one of the handful of used copies still in circulation, and eventually scrambling to borrow a book or two for the week it took the bookstore to get more copies
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:48 (seven years ago) link
apparently my classmate's site still kind-of exists as chegg.com
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:49 (seven years ago) link
they had a buyback system in the school bookstore which was garbage, you'd get like $5-10. then I started SELLING them on half.com and would make half my investment back.
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:49 (seven years ago) link
textbook access is a major problem. i heard some study a year or so ago that mentioned a huge percentage of students just don't buy them because they are too expensive
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:51 (seven years ago) link
going to either the school-owned or independent bookstore to get one of the handful of used copies still in circulation,
a lot of college bookstores are owned by follett too and from what i understand they are a shitty company. used textbooks are still marked up like crazy and yea like neanderhtal says the buyback system is trash
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:53 (seven years ago) link
there is a movement to create and promote openly licensed and freely accessible textbooks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_educational_resources. i have some librarian friends who are deeply involved in campus efforts to promote these. students and faculty have been excited by this
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:55 (seven years ago) link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_textbook
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:56 (seven years ago) link
I just remember it being a shitshow because you could go to the university bookstore right before the semester started in the hopes that the books in the "HIST 211" bin were right but it's possible some miscommunication happened and that was the book for the other instructor's session. You could never know for sure unless you got the syllabus from the first day of class. The non-university bookstore was even worse, because half the time they'd just label whatever book was returned from last semester with no knowledge of whether that was what this semester's instructor would use
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:56 (seven years ago) link
norms of academia don't really change fast enough, i think because it's creepy hierarchical so no one wants to call out gatekeepers
many fields don't do close readings of primary texts even at the graduate level for good reason. but there are quality free textbooks in most topics now, imo it's immoral to assign a big expensive one at this point and you should be shamed for doing it or at the very least for writing one. i had a professor who writes a big bloated, full of colour stock images, just a stupid fucking textbook, now in its 37th edition. met his daughter and she told me he used the profits of the book to buy a summer house. fucking prick
ditto articles should all be free, pre-prints should all be posted. everyone agrees on these things and yet nothing changes
― flopson, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:56 (seven years ago) link
The textbook business is in the doldrums. It's close to crisis point. There is a huge amount of IP theft and reselling which has radically impacted margins. It also doesn't help that enrolments are down so there is a glut of books and fewer students. The long-term options are similar to the music industry - slash prices for digital or bring in some kind of value add like integrated LMSs. Margins have been good in the past, possibly too good, but textsbooks can take years to work on and have a limited shelf life,
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:56 (seven years ago) link
xp - our textbook buyback was pretty good. me and a friend one year went to the largest freshman dorm after finals and before move out, and offered to take their textbooks back to the bookstore for them, and split the buyback fee. I think we did okay for a one afternoon half-assed sales effort. It helps to go to a school with a bunch of rich ppl.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:57 (seven years ago) link
there is no across-the-board good option, it all sucks
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:57 (seven years ago) link
at another point this same friend went to the same freshman dorm and made $ selling oregano.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 21:58 (seven years ago) link
a couple instructors were of the "class notes should be what you need, but if you want a reading you can buy this textbook on cd-rom" variety (lol i'm old) and a few just tried giving us as many disparate materials under fair use as they could. these were... horrible and not as good as a real textbook
the problem with the open textbook bit was that some of the professors who actually liked to instruct (as opposed to doing research/publishing) would use textbooks as a revenue stream. so you ended up with books printed/bound by the official bookstore, or a required textbook where your professor was one of the authors (the case with a calculus instructor)
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:00 (seven years ago) link
Yes, that's the biggest racket - assigning your own book.
― Bubba H.O.T.A.P.E (ShariVari), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:01 (seven years ago) link
the worst was this one German class where you had a specific textbook for both semesters and it came with this CD-Rom that had activities that we were required to print out and turn in.
I believe I either lost the cd rom or it stopped working or something, so I tried to find a way to acquire another copy from the publisher - no dice unless I bought a whole other textbook, they said.
fortunately a friend in class burnt me a copy - in return I did one of his homework assignments and spelled his first name wrong on it
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:06 (seven years ago) link
end all four-year arts/humanities degrees and allow only 1 year max to study those subjects and, if studying arts/humanities, make a trades subject a mandatory "major," decreasing four-year degrees to something like 2 or 3 year trades (maybe vocational) degrees; subjects in trades/voc schools would only be available on estimated demand in the workforce in the student's estimated graduating year
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:13 (seven years ago) link
all u need to know u can read in the Bible anyway imo
― Neanderthal, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:15 (seven years ago) link
stuck in the ice age
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:18 (seven years ago) link
so basically, a community college associate degree plus vocational studies? xp
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:18 (seven years ago) link
well college associate degrees are 2 years of general education, including science, generally. where i'm from, you can choose a concentration, but i would do away with that
in terms of helping you get a job, quite a few science subjects are also equally as useless as arts/humanities subjects
restructuring an associates to include arts/science to maybe 1-1.5 years, then doing all requirements including main subjects for your trade to finish in 3 years would be good
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:23 (seven years ago) link
You sure have all the answers huh?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:28 (seven years ago) link
My god TWU was right all along
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:30 (seven years ago) link
xxp is this hypothetical or are you in a skilled trade that uses that kind of platform?
knowing people who went the skilled trade route, you end up with union training plus a set number of hours and tests as an apprentice. even then, although only a GED is required, having an associate degree is useful
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:31 (seven years ago) link
In think btw that this thread should be for the uncool conservative beliefs only and there should be a spin-off thread/s to hold the opinions on same because damn, yanks, nobody wants to read ur ilx educational biographies
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:32 (seven years ago) link
otm. Let's get back to discussing queer theory, okay?
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:35 (seven years ago) link
it's good
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:36 (seven years ago) link
any major that has the word "studies" in it is bad
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:36 (seven years ago) link
maybe not agricultural studies. is that a thing?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:37 (seven years ago) link
mh i don't work in a skilled trade
i don't know any skilled trade that would require an associate's?
what i'm saying is if you are a student that wants to study arts/humanities, you would be required to do a trade
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:38 (seven years ago) link
Is creative writing a trade?
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:40 (seven years ago) link
Nope it's a hobby
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:41 (seven years ago) link
Pretty much anything creative that you don't get paid an hourly or piece rate for is a a hobby and the fact that the very odd person makes a greater or worse living in a creative field doesn't alter that
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:42 (seven years ago) link
i wish. if somebody'd put a giant inflatable rat in front of my house to get me back on course i'd be productive as all shit
― kellyanne amway (remy bean), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:42 (seven years ago) link
I have no idea where that is coming from but I'm all for it remy
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:43 (seven years ago) link
re: is writing a trade? i'd welcome a creative work union. (tho was once nearly a wga member)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflatable_rat
― kellyanne amway (remy bean), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:44 (seven years ago) link
Hourly or piece rat
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:46 (seven years ago) link
rats in the gutterstars are a looker
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:47 (seven years ago) link
let's see
I have my dad, who got an general associates degree and then ended up working as a floorlayer since it was a family shop, later went into the office to do managerial work/job estimates off blueprints/etc and spoke at a carpenters union national convention a couple years back
my friend was in the machinists union, worked on the floor for some years, and the company pulled him into QA as a QA engineer and is paying for him to finish an engineering degree (he was in college a year or two after high school but dropped out)
I have a bunch of coworkers with high school-aged kids and all of them cite pretty specific fields of study that their kids are pursuing in college? I feel like the "college is creating humanities grads no one will hire" period peaked a while back
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:52 (seven years ago) link
unless you're talking about the ivy leagues, those mostly churn out people bound for grad school and business degrees and probably should be nuked
rmde at humanities-shaming
― softie (silby), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 22:56 (seven years ago) link
Thread title pointer badly wanted bytimes itt
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:04 (seven years ago) link
mh
i'm going to guess your dad benefited from the high employment rates in the us and how cheap getting a degree was in years past (60s/70s/80s)
your friend in the machinist union had a skill, which is what i'm arguing in favour of -- those that get employer funding for a STEM are seen as remarkably valuable from her/his manager's view, and should be seen as rare, not an answer to high unemployment gap between STEM or engeering vs arts degree holders
that your coworkers' kids cite specific fields of study that they want to pursue in college doesn't mean much. what are they studying? what is their socioeconomic background and where do they live?
the hypothetical trades/arts degree i make reference to would theoretically be 'blind' to socioeconomic status and, to a certain extent, location, because availability of trades degrees would depend on that trades' job availability by the student's graduating year
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:04 (seven years ago) link
i was talking about knowing human people
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:08 (seven years ago) link
feel like there's a conflation of college as this aspirational class signifier and college as a requirement for employability that makes "college" both necessary and archaic re: humanities
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:17 (seven years ago) link
college should be fun and not useful imo
― softie (silby), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:28 (seven years ago) link
That is a cool liberal belief and u have an entire site for those
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:30 (seven years ago) link
yeah I tend to think so! but that is a very bourgeois standpoint -- if it was considerably less expensive or state-sponsored, it'd be a good time to find where you really want to go with life
as it is, the money outlay, combined with the immediate debt and societal expectation of return, means the amount of instruction and time spent are some value proposition where we're getting proposals for two years of instruction pounded into you with no time for reflection
why not just join the military
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:31 (seven years ago) link
sorry that was an xpost to darragh' fine dismissal
btw that was my real stanceI drive by a billboard every day that now has an ad for the National Guard promising 100% tuition compensation
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:32 (seven years ago) link
I would never dismiss silby I am only pointing out stuff
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:33 (seven years ago) link
I meant more dismissing the liberal students to argue in the hallway
― mh 😏, Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:40 (seven years ago) link
Not in the hallway. Nowhere on campus.
― Betsy DeVos Ayes (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2017 23:47 (seven years ago) link
you should honor your parents whether or not they deserve it
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 02:12 (seven years ago) link
Wow
― El Tomboto, Friday, 17 February 2017 02:43 (seven years ago) link
there's a pretty wide spread between someone just being a mediocre parent and physical/sexual abusers
― mh 😏, Friday, 17 February 2017 02:46 (seven years ago) link
also my parents are horrible at relationship guidance, just like nothing there whatsoever
Can you make a corollary along the lines of: Parents should love their children unconditionally even when they're being disgraceful little shits?
― Oh the pacmanity (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 17 February 2017 02:47 (seven years ago) link
love implies affection or at very least mercy and possibility for forgiveness
honor sounds, in absence of reasons for respect, subjugation
― mh 😏, Friday, 17 February 2017 02:50 (seven years ago) link
admittedly it's easier to do when they're deserving of it but it's really more for u than for them.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:04 (seven years ago) link
wow dude
― El Tomboto, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:05 (seven years ago) link
you could make such a corollary but interestingly the ten commandments only specifies one direction and not the other. maybe bc it assumes parents will love their children unconditionally (a big ask) or maybe it just doesn't think it's as important.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:05 (seven years ago) link
xpz
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:06 (seven years ago) link
tombot don't get too excited (tho i knew i'd get something of that reaction when i first posted) i'm not saying anything that wasn't written on divine tablets
Cases of abuse and extreme neglect are one thing, but in most instances I agree with Mordy. Not much is gained by fixating on one's parents' shortcomings. Also it's mean to make your mediocre parent stew in regret in their waning years because their kid won't talk to them -- a thing I've seen happen.
― Treeship, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:09 (seven years ago) link
^uncool conservative false equivance of the power dynamic here
― sciatica, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:09 (seven years ago) link
and like i'm not going to judge anyone for what they chose to do or what they think they're capable of etc everyone's soul belongs to them and is none of my business and i don't know what struggles other ppl are dealing w/. i just mean it as a general rule and really as a rule for myself since i'm not in the business of making rules for other ppl.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:11 (seven years ago) link
If my daughter stops talking to us shortly after making me a grandpa then I'll know why and I'll respect it.
"Honor" is a crap verb - it maybe has a use when the object is an oath, or flag, but not human beings
― El Tomboto, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:20 (seven years ago) link
my thinking is - why of all the things is honoring your parents important enough to include in the 10 commandments. and my thinking on this is that it's bc it's too easy to have disappointing parents and thru your disillusionment with them you come to be become disillusioned w/ so many other things - your family, your community, your faith, your feelings of historical connection to your ancestors - and you become detethered. the law isn't for good parents because it's easy to honor parents who you respect and love. it's really for parents who are /not/ deserving of it, bc that is when you're most at risk. i'm not sure whether you have to force yourself to love them while you're honoring them. surely you can do it and hate them in your head but in some form of subjugation you are really subjugating yourself to a tradition. also i think it's good for self-discipline. also, sometimes i really don't want to do something for my parents but thinking of this as a directive not only makes me do it but i get some satisfaction from it bc i'm not doing it to please them but for myself - to fulfill a directive that i believe is important. nb look if you have the worst parents in the world and you had to get loose from them or they'd destroy you or your soul like i said i'm not judging you at all. hell if you have the most wonderful parents in the world but you cut them out i mean this is your business entirely. i'm just talking about in the most abstract terms how i understand this particular ancient dictum.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:21 (seven years ago) link
In this context I take it to mean 'acknowledge their age and experience,' absent of wisdom. Possibly this interpretation, or even fretting about it, would've been mysterious to Moses and Yahweh.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2017 03:22 (seven years ago) link
lol i got into a big fight once on ilx before about the word 'honor.' i wonder why ppl find it so repulsive. is it that it seems to lend a mystic/spiritual dimension to human relationships and we're not keen to think about our human relationships in these kinds of terms? or that it seems to objectify the person being honored? or that we're just so disgusted by the idea of honor bc it implies honor based on a position but not on action. otoh we honor ppl all the time for good things they've done.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:24 (seven years ago) link
I got no problem w/objectifying people -- some people ask for it.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2017 03:25 (seven years ago) link
also maybe it's important for something similar to the idea expressed in this passage:
The awful, terrible act of his dying was, he could see, reduced by those about him to the level of a casual, unpleasant, and almost indecorous incident (as if someone entered a drawing room defusing an unpleasant odour) and this was done by that very decorum which he had served all his life long. He saw that no one felt for him, because no one even wished to grasp his position. Only Gerasim recognized it and pitied him. And so Ivan Ilych felt at ease only with him. He felt comforted when Gerasim supported his legs (sometimes all night long) and refused to go to bed, saying: “Don’t you worry, Ivan Ilych. I’ll get sleep enough later on,” or when he suddenly became familiar and exclaimed: “If you weren’t sick it would be an- other matter, but as it is, why should I grudge a little trouble?” Gerasim alone did not lie; everything showed that he alone understood the facts of the case and did not consider it neces- sary to disguise them, but simply felt sorry for his emaciated and enfeebled master. Once when Ivan Ilych was sending him away he even said straight out: “We shall all of us die, so why should I grudge a little trouble?” — expressing the fact that he did not think his work burdensome, because he was doing it for a dying man and hoped someone would do the same for him when his time came.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:27 (seven years ago) link
i read ivan ilych years ago but that stayed w me for a v long time. "he did not think his work burdensome, because he was doing it for a dying man and hoped someone would do the same for him when his time came."
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:28 (seven years ago) link
The idea of abstract charity, founded on a shared fiction of community, troubles a lot of people. It's one of the more benevolent parts of Christianity.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2017 03:31 (seven years ago) link
the problem is when "honor" becomes less about respect for knowledge and experience, or accommodating requests from people you love, and obeying the whims of your elders for no reason other than the propagation of legacy. which, in history, is very important because station in life, community prominence, and financial inheritance were all based on continuing a lineage of family
it's a risk-mitigation strategy: the child that does not honor (or is not honored, interestingly) is the black sheep. you're thrust into role of outcast, entrepreneur, or both
― mh 😏, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:55 (seven years ago) link
I feel like every successful abrahamaic religion family either quietly dropped or rehabilitated after death the reputation of the really shitty dads who did nothing but castigate their children. I was at a very nice catholic funeral where it was acknowledged on the low that yes, he was our dad, but the kids were succeeding despite him, not due to his intentional influence. And there it is, they honored their success via spite.
― mh 😏, Friday, 17 February 2017 03:59 (seven years ago) link
my dads always tryin to get money off of me. I love him but I respect him much less than I do 20 years ago and our relationship has suffered cos of his pathetic manipulative ways
― Neanderthal, Friday, 17 February 2017 04:38 (seven years ago) link
Mordy, are you familiar with kevin MacDonald's discussion of Freudianism? which i guess can be summarized as the pathologization of healthy families (by jews).
Your eloquence in defense of traditional attitudes brought it to mind. as well as the concomitant rejection of that traditionalism. Would be curious if you thought he had a point were the anti-Semitism stripped away.
― Peacock, Friday, 17 February 2017 04:53 (seven years ago) link
i don't remember that particular argument but my reading of the family which comes from traditional jewish texts is diametrically opposed by the kind of neurotic reading of Freudianism (which i imagine MacDonald is responding it - maybe I'm off-base but generally anti-Semitic critiques of Freud focus on his perversion of familial relationships). Do I hold Freud responsible for the erosion of familial sittlichtkeit? i guess unlike someone like MacDonald I'd consider Freud a product of his time - and naturally therefore working within an intellectual context of fracture being ushered in by modernity. this would be classic - Nazi anti-Semitism misaddressing the sins of modernity particularly to the Jews (and of course Freud was among the 'deviant thinkers' the Nazis condemned). the sad irony imo is that even so far as this critique could hold among German Jewry most Jews had the means to escape before the war. the primary victims of the genocide were Hungarian/Polish/Ukranian/Lithuanian Jewry aka the very Jews reaffirming this traditional family model that Freud was (potentially) disrupting. idk what do you think?
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 04:59 (seven years ago) link
also, i assume you mean the concomitant rejection of that traditionalism to be coming from other posters? i don't think i've expressed much unease or mitigation of traditional attitudes (though like all of us i'm obviously steeped in our cultural discourse which is iconoclastic on this note) and if anything i see my personal project of the last few years being an attempt to reaffirm some of these attitudes that have maybe been unduly dismissed. see also above in this thread where i talk about the declining role of religion and community as being responsible for many of our contemporary ills. a complete return to these cloistered communities (especially in my case where the most traditional of these communities in say williamsburg or lakewood are completely detached from modernity to the pt in both cases of having strong linguistic breaks from anglo america) is anathema to me. this despite the fact that i spent significant years of my younger life in such communities. inevitably i'm attracted to synthesis forms of traditional judaism - particularly modern orthodoxy (which incidentally, as i was discussing w/ nakh the other day, emerges in the figures of ivanka/kushner as this almost platonic contemporary vision of religious american life and i wonder what macdonald or even duke think about them because they seem to avoid them intentionally as major lacunas in their theories?) and even moreso chabad which also includes broad engagement w/ american life but an even stronger fidelity to traditional judaism vis-a-vis a gnostic/chassidic/kabbalistic tradition which in contemporary western world seems particularly resonant.
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 05:05 (seven years ago) link
Peacock, I just read a bunch of the MacDonald piece. It's very interesting + provocative (like much of his work). I think maybe his unfamiliarity with traditional Judaism though (and maybe he addresses this but I haven't gotten to it) leads him to interpret Freud incorrectly. Freud has a mythology about traditional Jewry but it is far removed from actual traditional Judaism and his beliefs about things like Jewish monotheism, Jewish choseness, Biblical exegesis, etc are those of a secular Jew already experiencing a disconnect from his traditions. He reads Jewish texts therefore through a prism of a) his own psychoanalytical theory and b) through the modern crisis that his family is living through and their own alienation from their tradition. I might even argue that his paeans to Jewish superiority are an overcompensation. This is something you can even see today among some Jews where they substitute a kind of Judeosupremecy militantism to compensate for a feeling of lacking a legitimate tradition. I don't want to psychoanalyze Freud or similar figures too much (I mean it's a very superficial sketch I'm drawing here) but merely to point out that I don't think he really understands Judaism or Jewishness very much and consequently to the extent that MacDonald uses him as a proxy for understanding Jewish theology he's working through an unreliable narrator. Certainly Freud's psychosexual analyses would be completely rejected in other Jewish communities.
HOWEVER
The idea of psychoanalysis itself is not anathema to Judaism. Famously one of the early Lubavitcher rebbes supposedly visited Freud to try and deal w/ severe depression and clearly saw some value in the kind of talk therapy work that he was innovating. But I don't think they discussed Judaism very much and I doubt the Rebbe (the Rebbe Rashab, there's an interesting description of their meeting here: https://www.henrymakow.com/Sigmund_Freud_and_the_Lubavitcher_Rebbe.pdf) thought very much of Freud's own work in Jewish theology (such as in Moses and Monotheism). Ultimately though I think this says more of Chabad chassidus which has a strong element from its beginning of "seeing in all things God" including things that may not seem immediately compatible, and also about the character of the Rebbe Rashab who recognized that he was suffering from a physical ailment, not necessarily a spiritual one, and therefore sought medical help from the expert in the field. If anything I think this uncharacteristic meeting only illuminates my point above - that Freud was working outside a traditional Jewish context and inventing his own Judaism.
So does MacDonald have a point? Here's my personal feeling - he recognizes something legitimately perverse in Freud's work that - like I said before - is equally of its time as well as its own force. But I don't know if he recognizes that there was a positive innovation occurring alongside possible negative repercussions of his work. Which is to say that a man like the Rebbe Rashab could visit him and gain relief from his depression and go back and shepherd his community and transmit a traditional line that exists (stronger than ever) until today. He didn't come back talking about penis envy and the oedipus complex and repressed sexuality - he still believed in modesty and traditional conceptions of sex. He was able to extract the value from amid the shtus/nonsense (as he, and I expect MacDonald, would consider the rest of the work). Freud himself is a troubled figure but it's hard to dismiss his contributions to the world even if the best psychoanalysis has ime long jettisoned Freud (and especially his work specific innovations) but kept the kernel of talk therapy and the therapist / patient relationship. nb that I'm personally not a huge talk therapy guy and I have some considerations about the movement as a whole but that's a whole other discussion. There was an interesting article by Daphne Merkin a few years ago called My Life in Therapy that i think articulates some of these broader considerations about the field and its ultimate value: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/magazine/08Psychoanalysis-t.html
― Mordy, Friday, 17 February 2017 05:45 (seven years ago) link
Mordy, thank you for your considered responses. (And yes, I was indeed referring to the "concomitant rejection" of other posters.) Though I mostly occasionally lurk here, I have long admired your thoughtfulness. Like you say, I think MacDonald is interesting and provocative, though I don't want to extol his beliefs. I often think he is good at articulating the corrosive effects of the movements that he critiques, but it is where he attributes those movements to the Jews where he goes astray. That said, if "Jewishness" is defined vaguely enough, I can see the argument that he is making, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate to call it "Jewishness," when something like "subversion" would work just as well. Obviously, there is also a flip side to these "corrosive" movements that, as you say, were a product of their time and a result of the failures of traditional societies to actualize everybody and were conceived in the pursuit of justice. You are far more well-versed in Freudianism (and in Judaism) than me, and I very much appreciate your response.
Anyway, sorry if I derailed. I do find it interesting to think that at this point in history, the very idea of this thread is now what is subversive. An invitation to speak heretically, and not be judged.
― Peacock, Saturday, 18 February 2017 04:03 (seven years ago) link
Children should not be allowed to dress themselves (including shopping for their own clothes) until the age of 12
― flopson, Saturday, 25 February 2017 04:46 (seven years ago) link
I recently went through some old photo albums at my Mom's house, and all the photos of me before age 6 i look cute as hell in these tasteful, adorable outfits ma (an adult who understands basic colour theory and fashion) lovingly picked out for me. after that, I look like a shitty nerd, colours clash, t-shirts with dumbass slogans on them, then this whole confused skater-surfer thing going on. It's the only way my parents were too liberal.
― flopson, Saturday, 25 February 2017 04:52 (seven years ago) link
i think the '80s and '90s were pretty tough for kids and parents who weren't clued in. these days i feel like there are more checks and balances w/fashion, less room for truly catastrophic decisions.
― nomar, Saturday, 25 February 2017 04:59 (seven years ago) link
Except for teenaged boys' hair, which remains a strange land of huge amounts of effort required to give the impression of looking incredibly stupid
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Saturday, 25 February 2017 10:35 (seven years ago) link
Or young men in general.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 25 February 2017 12:44 (seven years ago) link
― flopson
yeah my mom kept dressing me in sailor suits. bootleg bart simpson t-shirts were a step up for me.
― increasingly bonkers (rushomancy), Saturday, 25 February 2017 14:02 (seven years ago) link
shitty nerd, colours clash, t-shirts with dumbass slogans on them, then this whole confused skater-surfer thing
I posted this on the old photos thread, please note black and yellow Vans, ridiculous long shorts with pictures of what I believe was the Jetsons on them, self-darkening glasses, stupid upturned hat, etc.
http://i42.tinypic.com/11si6x0.jpg
― joygoat, Saturday, 25 February 2017 17:00 (seven years ago) link
perfect example
― flopson, Saturday, 25 February 2017 17:05 (seven years ago) link
colours clash, t-shirts with dumbass slogans on them
last night i browsed page after page of t-shirts with dumbass slogans on them that were aping the aesthetic of my 8 year old self whose favorite item of clothing was a yellow t-shirt that said El Camino Real Running Club (or something like that). I thought about buying one of these shirts. Then I thought it would be stupid to spend 20 dollars on said item.
― sarahell, Sunday, 26 February 2017 19:55 (seven years ago) link
I like that aesthetic. A few years ago I saw two kids in glorious 90s mallrat regalia -- JNCOs, cat in the hat hat, tiny backpack that is also a teddy bear, hemp jewelry. I think they were part of some double advanced retro subculture at their high school.
― Treeship, Sunday, 26 February 2017 20:04 (seven years ago) link
Say then, my friend, in what manner does tyranny arise? --that it has a democratic origin is evident. Clearly. And does not tyranny spring from democracy in the same manner as democracy from oligarchy --I mean, after a sort? How? The good which oligarchy proposed to itself and the means by which it was maintained was excess of wealth --am I not right? Yes. And the insatiable desire of wealth and the neglect of all other things for the sake of money-getting was also the ruin of oligarchy? True. And democracy has her own good, of which the insatiable desire brings her to dissolution? What good? Freedom, I replied; which, as they tell you in a democracy, is the glory of the State --and that therefore in a democracy alone will the freeman of nature deign to dwell. Yes; the saying is in everybody's mouth. I was going to observe, that the insatiable desire of this and the neglect of other things introduces the change in democracy, which occasions a demand for tyranny. How so? When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cupbearers presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they are cursed oligarchs. Yes, he replied, a very common occurrence. Yes, I said; and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her slaves who hug their chains and men of naught; she would have subjects who are like rulers, and rulers who are like subjects: these are men after her own heart, whom she praises and honours both in private and public. Now, in such a State, can liberty have any limit? Certainly not. By degrees the anarchy finds a way into private houses, and ends by getting among the animals and infecting them. How do you mean? I mean that the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no respect or reverence for either of his parents; and this is his freedom, and the metic is equal with the citizen and the citizen with the metic, and the stranger is quite as good as either.
Clearly. And does not tyranny spring from democracy in the same manner as democracy from oligarchy --I mean, after a sort?
How? The good which oligarchy proposed to itself and the means by which it was maintained was excess of wealth --am I not right?
Yes. And the insatiable desire of wealth and the neglect of all other things for the sake of money-getting was also the ruin of oligarchy?
True. And democracy has her own good, of which the insatiable desire brings her to dissolution?
What good? Freedom, I replied; which, as they tell you in a democracy, is the glory of the State --and that therefore in a democracy alone will the freeman of nature deign to dwell.
Yes; the saying is in everybody's mouth. I was going to observe, that the insatiable desire of this and the neglect of other things introduces the change in democracy, which occasions a demand for tyranny.
How so? When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cupbearers presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they are cursed oligarchs.
Yes, he replied, a very common occurrence. Yes, I said; and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her slaves who hug their chains and men of naught; she would have subjects who are like rulers, and rulers who are like subjects: these are men after her own heart, whom she praises and honours both in private and public. Now, in such a State, can liberty have any limit?
Certainly not. By degrees the anarchy finds a way into private houses, and ends by getting among the animals and infecting them.
How do you mean? I mean that the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no respect or reverence for either of his parents; and this is his freedom, and the metic is equal with the citizen and the citizen with the metic, and the stranger is quite as good as either.
― Mordy, Monday, 27 February 2017 03:13 (seven years ago) link
The Constitution actually does guarantee the individual right to firearm ownership
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 27 February 2017 05:01 (seven years ago) link
the second amendment is a run-on sentence with no clear subject
― mh 😏, Monday, 27 February 2017 14:57 (seven years ago) link
if you're in a committed relationship it's probably a good idea not to spend a lot of alone time w/ someone who shares your spouse's gender
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 00:54 (seven years ago) link
significant other's* gender
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 00:55 (seven years ago) link
lol ok Mordy
― softie (silby), Saturday, 1 April 2017 01:30 (seven years ago) link
Straight people are nuts
― softie (silby), Saturday, 1 April 2017 01:37 (seven years ago) link
http://www.theonion.com/article/mike-pence-asks-waiter-remove-mrs-butterworth-tabl-55661
― a but (brimstead), Saturday, 1 April 2017 01:44 (seven years ago) link
i work in a field that is over 80% female, i spend most of my time with women!!! if i lived by pence's dumb rule i'd be fucking weirdo
― marcos, Saturday, 1 April 2017 01:48 (seven years ago) link
how often do u go to dinners one on one with another woman?
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:00 (seven years ago) link
nb i have platonic female friends and in the past i have gone to dinner w/ them but it's extremely rare and i think it's probably best to limit it. but i think i've talked on ilx before about how i don't think ppl should have intimate friendships w ppl of their SO's gender and iirc the vast majority of ilx disagreed w/ me.
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:02 (seven years ago) link
"having dinner" "spending a lot of alone time" "intimate friendships" lol the goalposts are driving around on the back of a pickup truck
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:08 (seven years ago) link
idk wtf that means but i'm guessing it means that some of those things you agree w/ and some you don't.
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:11 (seven years ago) link
― softie (silby), Friday, March 31, 2017 6:37 PM (forty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― a but (brimstead), Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:22 (seven years ago) link
My wife went out to lunch today with a male colleague, and I know has regularly eaten with or had drinks with other guys in her field at conferences and until the Pence shit yesterday it never even crossed my mind that this would be considered to be controversial or scandalous to anyone.
Still can't really wrap my head around being this distrustful of your partner or assuming everyone is a lecherous asshole.
― joygoat, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:33 (seven years ago) link
it's just such a weird and useless thing to make generalizations about and depending on how you frame the relationship you can make it sound completely innocuous or the opposite of that so like what are we doing here
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:35 (seven years ago) link
it's neither. it's that ppl bond w/ ppl they spend time with, esp alone, and you probably shouldn't be putting yourself into situations where you could develop romantic feelings - even instantly repressed - with ppl outside your relationship. it's not like humans are exemplars of emotional appropriateness and relationships of all kinds are often complicated by unanticipated feelings. it has nothing to w/ distrusting anyone, or assuming anyone is lecherous. xp
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:37 (seven years ago) link
cad, i think probably you see it as a spectrum. you likely draw these lines in different places than other ppl. my impression is that a lot of ppl don't even see a problem w/ having a relationship w/ someone that rivals or even possibly eclipses the emotional intimacy of their relationship w/ their spouse. different conceptions of what a marriage indicates and how to maintain its health. i don't think it's a terrible discussion to have and over the last two days i've seen a lot of ppl acting like they can't even understand where pence might've been coming from. like i said above i don't go anywhere near as far as he does but i find his perspective v comprehensible.
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:39 (seven years ago) link
On one hand what emerged about Pence is neanderthal: I would not share if I were the vice president of the Unites States, a personage who has to meet with heads of state who are not going to jump this limp dicked sad-faced asshole's bones. But I know my dad would also never meet with a woman by himself under any circumstance b/c he's terrified that my mom will out, which tells me (a) his line of business doesn't employ many women in charge or whom men like my father regard as equals (b) he doesn't trust himself.
The question changes in office and university settings. I was a grad student in the '90s and already male professors didn't close their office doors when meeting with female students.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:49 (seven years ago) link
i don't go out to dinner very much w/ anyone in my field unless i'm at a conference but one-on-one meetings, coffee, lunch, they happen all the time and are never weird and i never feel like they are a threat to my marriage. sometimes i might be attracted to the person and sometimes i might not be, wholly depends on the person obv and nothing really to do with the scenario of being alone with them.
idk i take it as a given that i will have romantic feelings for people other than my wife at times, sometimes those feelings are deep and real and sometimes they are fleeting, and they might happen whether i am working in an office w/ them in the company of a ton of other people or if i'm alone out to lunch or dinner with them. it's not a big deal imo, i think i became significantly less stressed about the status of my marriage when i accepted that i will be attracted to thousands of other people throughout my lifetime, and being attracted or romantically interested in someone other than my wife does not mean i will be cheat on her or seek to undermine my relationship w/ her
― marcos, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:50 (seven years ago) link
lol meanwhile show me a single athletic department who gives two shits
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:55 (seven years ago) link
i think there's a spectrum, and then there's some kind of large gulf of nothingness, and then there's the pence viewpoint. i can't understand where he's coming from because i can't imagine a person choosing a highly public life and then setting those kinds of restrictions for themselves. and that's not even getting into where the restrictions are coming from which i think alfred has covered very nicely.
as an aside, i'd be curious where you see evidence for this:
my impression is that a lot of ppl don't even see a problem w/ having a relationship w/ someone that rivals or even possibly eclipses the emotional intimacy of their relationship w/ their spouse.
b/c my anecdotal experience would show few if any examples where this is the case.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, 1 April 2017 02:58 (seven years ago) link
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto),
Well, they generate revenue!
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 1 April 2017 03:00 (seven years ago) link
The way I boil it down has fuck all to do with people's bad judgement about intimacy and "romance" and a lot to do with professional ethics and trust between adults who work together, as peers, subordinate and superior, contractor and customer, mentor and protege, whatever. The rest is the goddamn marriage vows, for crying out loud.
I have a job that requires that I abide by federal prohibitions on the use of certain substances. Do I need to move to a neighborhood that doesn't have a guy selling weed on the corner on a regular basis? Some people abide by religious prohibitions against drinking alcohol. Must they avoid all establishments that have liquor licenses?
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Saturday, 1 April 2017 03:10 (seven years ago) link
the particular conservative obsession with human weakness is so weird and lopsided and absurd to me
well this one has a lot to do with misogyny
― softie (silby), Saturday, 1 April 2017 03:11 (seven years ago) link
Pence doesn't avoid spending time alone with women who aren't is wife because of his frailty it's because he hates women
― softie (silby), Saturday, 1 April 2017 03:12 (seven years ago) link
Oh I don't give two shits what that moron thinks, I was speaking to the notion in the abstract
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Saturday, 1 April 2017 03:18 (seven years ago) link
lol i remember when i thought this way
― velko, Saturday, 1 April 2017 03:51 (seven years ago) link
idk i take it as a given that i will have romantic feelings for people other than my wife at times, sometimes those feelings are deep and real and sometimes they are fleeting, and they might happen whether i am working in an office w/ them in the company of a ton of other people or if i'm alone out to lunch or dinner with them. it's not a big deal imo
it's not something to make a huge deal out of but it's not fantastic either idk i guess i agree w/ carter here - that he lusted in his heart. and also there's an element of sanctity you're trying to protect as well which means trying to avoid thoughts that could encroach upon it if it can be helped. i'm trying to make a v nuanced argument so plz don't get me wrong - i don't think there's anything wrong with eating w/ someone of the opposite gender who isn't yr spouse, and i don't think there's anything wrong with fleeting meaningless romantic feelings about them. i just don't think it's ideal and i understand where ppl are coming from when they try to avoid it and i personally try to keep it to a minimum in my life if possible.
unless someone speaks up here i'll just have to go by my memory which is that the last time i brought this conversation up on ilx i got at least one response from someone that was like "i've had many significant others come and go but i have friends who have lasted me my entire lifetime."
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 April 2017 04:01 (seven years ago) link
What about eating with a man who isn't your wife
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 1 April 2017 11:07 (seven years ago) link
http://m5.paperblog.com/i/83/830582/the-fannibal-dinner-party-cooking-like-hannib-L-B18MFv.jpeg
― Jeff, Saturday, 1 April 2017 13:48 (seven years ago) link
I mean, the number of jobs where one-on-one dinner interactions are a regular part of business is, I'm thinking, relatively low? But the bigger issue here is that if you aren't comfortable with that, maybe don't take a job where it'd be important to be alone in a room with another person
the main issue is that this mindset doesn't just include one-on-one interactions, it carries over into other business. maybe those meetings are essential and women miss out on managerial roles, or maybe the same dynamic carries over to larger groups. it's this essential idea that keeps good ol' boy networks in place, that keeps women off of executive committees or off Wall Street, that somehow having a woman in the room is going to fuck up their success, or that women in that room have to act like "one of the boys"
important government or business meeting rooms shouldn't be safe spaces for old white men talking about golf and tits
― a landlocked exclave (mh 😏), Saturday, 1 April 2017 18:41 (seven years ago) link
― velko, Friday, March 31, 2017 8:51 PM (yesterday)
velko otm
though it's kinda a personal version of nanny state-ism, a drastic means of trying to prevent people from hurting themselves or others, when it's going to happen anyway, because people are human and life is short
― sarahell, Saturday, 1 April 2017 20:45 (seven years ago) link
*it's = Pence's rules
mordy what if you're bi
― ogmor, Saturday, 1 April 2017 20:57 (seven years ago) link
just get takeout
― Django Chutney (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 1 April 2017 21:02 (seven years ago) link
mh otm
yes, and that is exactly the 2nd order effect of this kind of thinking (NB: this kind of thinking is hardly treated as a personal decision, it's also a yardstick to judge others with)
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Saturday, 1 April 2017 21:08 (seven years ago) link
This is how I feel fwiw, but I don't even know how much I disagree with Mordy.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Saturday, 1 April 2017 21:25 (seven years ago) link
Like, if you want the whole rewards-of-coupledom-above-all-else thing (which I think are... children?) - maybe the strength of my love for my closest friends is a problem! I don't know, it seems plausible, I have no reason or evidence to disagree (although also no reason to disagree with happily married people saying the contrary)
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Saturday, 1 April 2017 21:28 (seven years ago) link
I think resilience and courage are underemphasized in modern parenting.
I was brought up thinking that being sensitive and clever were good things and that a little bit of vulnerability and even neuroticism could be charming if i played them off in a kind of self-deprecating way. I now realize that this was stupid, i did not play these things off charmingly, and that i should have spent my teen years hanging out with the mainstream teens i thought i was better than -- the jocks. These people were more aware of the competitive aspect of social relationships and, more importantly, they didn't resent it. Their fear of showing weakness was not pathological; rather, it was adaptive. I don't think this is a gender role thing, either. i know as many women as men who have this kind of cheerful toughness I'm talking about.
― Treeship, Sunday, 2 April 2017 05:03 (seven years ago) link
Also I am not saying that people should pursue strength through aggression. Sometimes, I think, the basic virtue of being able to stand up for yourself is mixed up with aggression and people end up all turned around, validating weakness without realizing it. This is a road to psychological hell.
― Treeship, Sunday, 2 April 2017 05:10 (seven years ago) link
there are neurotic jocks, too, it's just the team social aspect pushes a more normalized way of relating
idk just join any large group that's intellectually diverse and not a bunch of nerds
― a landlocked exclave (mh 😏), Sunday, 2 April 2017 12:16 (seven years ago) link
Play a brass instrument
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Sunday, 2 April 2017 12:50 (seven years ago) link
Regarding the Pence approach to staying faithful, it seems a little extreme/presumptuous to me. I think the reality of possible infidelity is that you know who the people in your life are that you might stray with. You have a responsibility not to deceive yourself about this and to guard against situations that make it easier to fuck up. The idea, in my case, that this would apply to all the men I know, or even all the men I am friends with, is sort of hilarious. My initial response to that Pence quote was, relax, nobody's sweating you.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 13:47 (seven years ago) link
Like, maybe Mike Pence is really afraid he might fuck literally any woman in the world, but the women of the world do not reciprocate that fear. That seems not to have occurred to him. Shocker.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 13:51 (seven years ago) link
― Mordy, Wednesday, August 3, 2016 12:48 AM (seven months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Mordy, do you actually believe this???
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:06 (seven years ago) link
*fires up .xls* mordy rates isaac b singer iirc
― a Brazilian professional footballer (wins), Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:13 (seven years ago) link
i didn't mean that question to sound accusatory; i was just genuinely surprised.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:14 (seven years ago) link
Mordy's first post in thread reminds me of this exchange in Last Days of Disco
Departmental Dan:...occasionally I get reactionary thoughts, tooChloe Sevigny: I'm not reactionary!Departmental Dan: I meant, aestheticallyChloe Sevigny: Oh, aesthetically
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:17 (seven years ago) link
― Neanderthal, Wednesday, August 17, 2016 11:53 PM (seven months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
lol. i enjoy this thread. sarahell is terrifying in it, though.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:23 (seven years ago) link
i am kind of a fan of repression, i think.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:28 (seven years ago) link
^^^that's my contribution to the thread, i mean
there is lit published after 1945 that i like. but it seems like a useful cut-off date bc i think it does mark a dramatic decline in quality. and over the last decade or so i'm totally turned off to all new literature. there's too much of it, it all seems very samey, none of it seems to have anything new or useful to say, etc. </curmudgeon> happy to see u in this thread horseshoe. :)
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:29 (seven years ago) link
repression can be good! ppl are too self-expressed.
i identify with that, to some extent, but isn't it just that the historical processes of selection and canonization haven't happened yet for stuff that's just come out? i feel like market forces dictate what gets presented as literary fiction more than thoughtful criticism. maybe the super-good stuff hasn't even been published and will be discovered years hence, you know? but also, i like plenty of recent stuff. the Ferrante novels are as good as anything ever written. well, maybe not King Lear, but what is? liking King Lear as much as i do is kind of conservative, i guess?
hi Mordy! it's nice to see you, too.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:34 (seven years ago) link
also genre fiction that is v v good is a welcome respite from the saminess of "literary fiction"
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:37 (seven years ago) link
my investment in evaluating literature is conservative, i guess.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:38 (seven years ago) link
i've even read new fiction i like but generally not as much as older fiction i've liked and lately i've found that i'm drawn more and more to pre-1945 literature and less and less interested in what ppl have to say about /our times/ which contemp authors seem consistently unable to address in any kind of novel or valuable way. certainly the whole cadre of new yorker fiction is a total wasteland in my eyes. i haven't read any ferrante but i'm pretty much willing to try any recommendation if there's a particular one you think i should read?
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:44 (seven years ago) link
I have only read the Neapolitan novels, the first of which is My Brilliant Friend. I'm trying to think of other novels I've read recently that I would recommend--it's so vulnerable! With stuff written pre-1945, I can feel confident that many smart people have pored over it and found it pearlescently perfect, which is not a feeling I often have reading new stuff. But I have read plenty of baggy, messy things I enjoy. Also I let my ninth graders read whatever they want one day a week, which is my favorite day because I get to read whatever I want with them, and the last time we did that I read a pearlescently perfect short story by Alice Munro, "Comfort," which I also recommend, and which might specifically appeal to you, Mordy.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:51 (seven years ago) link
She's pretty New Yorker-y, i guess.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:52 (seven years ago) link
alice munro? yeah, definitely. she's among the reasons i got so turned off to reading new literature but i've never read "Comfort" (i don't think? tho it does sound familiar...) and i'd be willing to give her another try on your say-so.
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:54 (seven years ago) link
i don't know; if you don't like her other stuff, you might hate it. i would give it maybe five pages to appeal to you?
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 14:57 (seven years ago) link
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, September 2, 2016 2:51 PM (seven months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is not conservative imo
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 15:15 (seven years ago) link
wager Mordy would like The Last Samurai by Helen DeWitt
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 16:08 (seven years ago) link
New Yorker fiction doesn't look much like Alice Munro's tbh
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 2 April 2017 16:46 (seven years ago) link
i don't think so either, but they have published a bunch of her stories.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 16:46 (seven years ago) link
so does a Mordy not like Pynchon?
one of my fav contemporary writers of fiction who write in english is Rivka Galchen who i could also really see you liking BUT she sometimes has short stories in the nyorker :-/
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 17:04 (seven years ago) link
i liked V a lot and sometimes (in light of fiction i write) probably too much. i think probably he has a bad influence on a lot of writers maybe a few of whom post to ilx.
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 17:07 (seven years ago) link
also the Ferrante i recommend is Days of Abandonment, a boiling fever of a book
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 17:40 (seven years ago) link
^^ agreed. I wasn't crazy about the novel sequence -- at least the two volumes I read.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 2 April 2017 17:40 (seven years ago) link
that's crazy talk
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 17:42 (seven years ago) link
I'm currently having my windows broken while i watch by a group of local kids and guess what I'd like my taxes to contribute to their incarceration and/or deaths
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 17:47 (seven years ago) link
have you read DOA horseshoe?
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:00 (seven years ago) link
lmao darragh
who is most conservative ilxor poster btwn me flopson + deems
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:02 (seven years ago) link
take your shirts off and we'll see
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:03 (seven years ago) link
Not crazy talk about DOA, flopson. I haven't read it. Alfred is crazy talking about the Neapolitan novels.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:08 (seven years ago) link
Don't think flopson is v conservative tbh. Mordy and darraghmac differently (complementarily?) conservative
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:10 (seven years ago) link
my impression is flopson is pretty bullish on capitalism
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:10 (seven years ago) link
Hi horseshoe obv
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:13 (seven years ago) link
Mordy'a political alignment is roughly "stoner Commentary"
― softie (silby), Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:15 (seven years ago) link
hi darraghmac!
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:16 (seven years ago) link
i'm more religious than commentary
― Mordy, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:17 (seven years ago) link
I'm more grumbly and arguey but I'm quite nice rly iirc
I do mean that i was sat there watching them do this while typing that post. I asked them not to fwiw
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:20 (seven years ago) link
I am very lenient on criminal offenses against property unless they're against my property, and then I wish caning was allowed
― a landlocked exclave (mh 😏), Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:23 (seven years ago) link
i am sorry those kids broke your windows, darraghmac.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:42 (seven years ago) link
I'll try not to let it inform my views in the longer run :#
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 18:44 (seven years ago) link
Someone else work up a fenestra/final straw joke, I'm indisposed
― a Brazilian professional footballer (wins), Sunday, 2 April 2017 19:02 (seven years ago) link
You're not conservative, Mordy.
― Bill Teeters (Tom D.), Sunday, 2 April 2017 19:23 (seven years ago) link
what about aesthetically?
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 19:43 (seven years ago) link
― horseshoe, Sunday, April 2, 2017 7:23 AM (five hours ago)
the first couple posts are examples based on the source of the image that starts the thread, not my personal beliefs
― sarahell, Sunday, 2 April 2017 19:56 (seven years ago) link
ok except for the one about there being too many lazy people, which I do sincerely believe.
― sarahell, Sunday, 2 April 2017 19:59 (seven years ago) link
who is most conservative ilxor poster btwn me flopson + deems― Mordy, Sunday, April 2, 2017 2:02 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Mordy, Sunday, April 2, 2017 2:02 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i'm not familiar with either of your political opinions but my impression was that neither of you were remotely conservative (although in d's case i am so rarely able to parse his posts)
my impression is flopson is pretty bullish on capitalism― Mordy, Sunday, April 2, 2017 2:10 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Mordy, Sunday, April 2, 2017 2:10 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
idk i'm a pretty plain vanilla lib(eral)/socdem. twitter made me hate Socialists more than i otherwise would and sometimes it is 'necessary' to 'defend' liberal democracy from the idiotic heights reached in the puritanical arms race by its most idealistic critics. i definitely draw a line somewhere far before Actual Communism (which a lot of leftists prefer to leave intentionally blurred until pressed), and moreover think marxism and other systematic analyses of capitalism or neoliberalism are often an evasive tactic or abdication of intellectual and political responsibility; a cynical way to adopt a lackadaisical position on the particulars of feasible/pragmatic (if imperfect) solutions to social problems by saying, ah, well to really solve that you'd need to take down Capitalism. Marx had some great bars but the labor theory of value and historical materialism are crap. i do kind of wish everyone would accept that we are quibbling over the details of the mixed economy (details which are hugely important!), preferably sometime before graduating from college, stop the grandstanding about Capitalism, and just say what they want
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:02 (seven years ago) link
i'm not giving up on the Neapolitan series yet but there was nothing remotely approaching the fire and brimstone of Days of Abandonment in volume 1
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:06 (seven years ago) link
...you know that scene in 30 Rock where Liz and Jenna are hashing out their issues in front of Jack Donaghy, and he's like "This is boring. I'm bored now"? I wonder if that phenomenon explains men being bored by the Neapolitan novels. sorry if that makes me an asshole to wonder; i do genuinely wonder it.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:14 (seven years ago) link
Dmac what u do w those thugs is u put them in some dirty/trashy/poor neighbourhood or somewhere where the murder rate is high and they do community service (pick up trash/sweep)
Second attempt and u incarcerate them
Third attempt and u give em the death penalty
Theyre already a burden to the tax system as it is, might as well make them work for the glorious prison food they so eagerly want
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:20 (seven years ago) link
ouch! i wasn't bored by My Brilliant Friend, far from it. but DoA was one of the best reading experiences i've had; stayed up all night to read the final scene, felt it reverberate for days. never read anything so dripping with rage and frustration, i can only imagine what it's like in the original italian! so naturally that's the one i would recommend to Mordy (or anyone)
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:27 (seven years ago) link
It was unfair of me to speculate. I don't doubt that Days of Abandonment is great! The neapolitan novels are the most remarkable recent fiction I have read. But female friendship is intrinsically fascinating to me.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:41 (seven years ago) link
― Mordy, Sunday, April 2, 2017 2:02 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
deems > you > flopson
― k3vin k., Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:45 (seven years ago) link
poll
― flopson, Sunday, 2 April 2017 20:50 (seven years ago) link
Ya but who is most conservative
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 21:25 (seven years ago) link
― flopson, Sunday, April 2, 2017 1:50 PM (forty minutes ago)
^ classic neo-liberal response
the correct answer is "duel"
― sarahell, Sunday, 2 April 2017 21:31 (seven years ago) link
Markets will decide
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 21:32 (seven years ago) link
The word "truel" was introduced in Martin Shubik's 1964 book Game Theory and Related Approaches to Social Behavior, page 43, and independently in Richard Epstein's 1967 book Theory of Gambling and Statistical Logic, page 343.
― a Brazilian professional footballer (wins), Sunday, 2 April 2017 21:34 (seven years ago) link
Disappointed that's not a cruel truth tbb
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Sunday, 2 April 2017 21:38 (seven years ago) link
How does Game Theory and Related Approaches to Social Behavior compare to those Ferrante books?
― sarahell, Sunday, 2 April 2017 23:54 (seven years ago) link
Maybe this would be better for "controversial opinion" thread than here, but since we're talking fidelity/infidelity: I think people mostly don't cheat from healthy relationships.
Nobody "steals" anybody's man, or woman. If you got "stolen," it's because you were stealable. If you're monogamously minded and your relationship is working for you, you can generally resist temptation. If you're not monogamously minded, you probably shouldn't enter into monogamous situations.
― been there, not done that (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 2 April 2017 23:57 (seven years ago) link
idk. sometimes people lose sight of their priorities and do selfish things.
― Treeship, Monday, 3 April 2017 00:02 (seven years ago) link
― Bobson Dugnutt (ulysses), Monday, 3 April 2017 00:54 (seven years ago) link
sorry, this isn't the argue with uncool conservative beliefs thread
― Mordy, Monday, 3 April 2017 01:33 (seven years ago) link
where do we keep that one
― Bobson Dugnutt (ulysses), Monday, 3 April 2017 01:56 (seven years ago) link
Literally every other thread iirc
― DJI, Monday, 3 April 2017 01:57 (seven years ago) link
Ha truthbomb
― virginity simple (darraghmac), Monday, 3 April 2017 07:06 (seven years ago) link
I'm sure there's been quite a bit of arguing above.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 3 April 2017 12:25 (seven years ago) link
I didn't oppose Rudy Giuliani's Times Square "clean up," or, rather, I saw it as inevitability.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 3 April 2017 12:47 (seven years ago) link
Watching Asghar Farhadi's The Salesman today made me think of Mordys claim about no good literature after 1945. Because once upon a time, Farhadi would be one of the worlds biggest writers, but people like him now work in cinema. And The Salesman could really have been a very good book, great plot, interesting characters, an intriguing meta-layer. And cinematically, it's ok as well, and a worthy Oscar-winner. It would have been a better book, though, of a kind that isn't there anymore.
― Frederik B, Monday, 3 April 2017 12:49 (seven years ago) link
Those books are there, just not being written in English for the most part
― I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Wednesday, 5 April 2017 07:02 (seven years ago) link
Well, my example is Iranian, so... :)
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 5 April 2017 10:07 (seven years ago) link
The difference between untreated ADHD and incompetence + stupidity is unimportant for practical purposes.
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 19:51 (six years ago) link
if I read you right that isn't far from my professional position
― more polls about food and reactionary art (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 29 June 2017 19:53 (six years ago) link
i have adhd and i agree with that
― Treeship, Thursday, 29 June 2017 19:56 (six years ago) link
practical = success in school, especially in the workplace
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 19:57 (six years ago) link
It's impressive reading the symptoms of ADHD and how closely they align with symptoms of stupidity
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:01 (six years ago) link
this is why my work group switched to a task system we can check -- people request things, we have a window to respond, and any communication is captured there instead of emailing a single person, them saying "oh yeah I'll look at that" and then completely brushing it off
setting up shit like that is, to me, also proactively creating a way to work around ADHD-style lack of focus
I am phenomenally bad at using systems like this, and I know I've looked like an idiot in the past for doing that exact email thing and completely forgetting their request. On a personal level instead of institutional, there's an entire cult of "getting things done" tools and books and I swear, half of it is just forcing people who can't concentrate on shit to organize
― mh, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:32 (six years ago) link
can't these people just be eliminated from the workforce and given jobs that are the equivalent of cows grazing in a field?
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:36 (six years ago) link
^ need to keep with the spirit of the thread here
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:38 (six years ago) link
would love to graze in a field tbh
― marcos, Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:38 (six years ago) link
you can reasonably adjust so far, but when the problem is people's inability to function as efficient machine tools then the problem is clearly the machine imo
― more polls about food and reactionary art (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:39 (six years ago) link
Even when the prospective tools don't recognize this
― more polls about food and reactionary art (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 29 June 2017 20:40 (six years ago) link
― more polls about food and reactionary art (Noodle Vague), Thursday, June 29, 2017 1:39 PM (fifty-two minutes ago)
another problem is they fuck things up for everyone else.
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 21:33 (six years ago) link
However, maybe they are the perfect tools to support an authoritarian fascist state as they seem amazingly capable of holding two conflicting ideas in their head, and accepting that 2+2=5 -- I mean, the ability to commit to having people come at 5 to remove their artwork, and simultaneously promote that the gallery will be open for people to view said artwork until 6 ... very impressive.
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 21:37 (six years ago) link
oh, this is properly ordering things, not forgetting to do things entirely
tools can only do so much, the only thing that is going to make them learn is to show up promptly at 5 and remove all artwork as stated
― mh, Thursday, 29 June 2017 22:03 (six years ago) link
it is amazing how this person fails to learn basic things
― sarahell, Thursday, 29 June 2017 22:11 (six years ago) link
my grandfather used to have some variety of pun based around the phrase "outstanding in his field". i can't remember precisely how it went but i'm assuming that since it was a pun it wasn't supposed to be funny anyway. (i thought it was hilarious but i was eight.)
― The Saga of Rodney Stooksbury (rushomancy), Friday, 30 June 2017 01:32 (six years ago) link
democracy now is bad
― marcos, Thursday, 20 July 2017 20:31 (six years ago) link
democracy is bad now
― tong poo (da ba dee) (crüt), Thursday, 20 July 2017 20:32 (six years ago) link
computer games make you feel fuzzy headed and detached from the world.
― Fizzles, Thursday, 20 July 2017 20:32 (six years ago) link
marcos when are we gonna hang irl smoke some fat blunts and talk about how bad amy goodman is
― Mordy, Thursday, 20 July 2017 20:34 (six years ago) link
ha mordy I would love that
― marcos, Friday, 21 July 2017 02:53 (six years ago) link
Plato was right about some stuff.
― .oO (silby), Friday, 13 October 2017 01:36 (six years ago) link
Popular culture actually does have negative affects on youth, just in more complex ways than heavy metal = your kid becomes a satanic murderer etc.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Friday, 13 October 2017 02:19 (six years ago) link
I've been really into comics most of my life but a lot less so in the past few years. Walked into a comic shop recently and thought "it can't be healthy to be so immersed in 95% of this stuff." I've had this feeling creeping on me for years, a lot of it is the roteness of the drawing but I think a big part of it is the computer colouring. So much computer imagery just grows sickening somehow. Part of why I don't pay much attention to videogames anymore. I don't think this quality is an unavoidable part of computer art, I like some of it very much but it's difficult to say why some things don't create this feeling.
Too much photography and film with this unpleasantness.
A lot of this might be down to my taste but I think there are types of visual artificiality that are harmful after too much. And yes, think of the children taking it all in.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 13 October 2017 13:57 (six years ago) link
― .oO (silby),
he was right about findng lasting satisfaction with men :)
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 13 October 2017 14:00 (six years ago) link
Ayooo
― .oO (silby), Friday, 13 October 2017 14:32 (six years ago) link
some days i'm in favor of human extinction. that's an uncool conservative idea, right?
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Friday, 13 October 2017 19:06 (six years ago) link
no, conservatives say don't immanentize the eschaton
― El Tomboto, Friday, 13 October 2017 20:14 (six years ago) link
― El Tomboto
their mouths say no, but their eyes say "YES, LET US ALL BE PLUNGED INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE NOW"
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Friday, 13 October 2017 20:29 (six years ago) link
rupi kaur's poetry is str8 garbage
― clouds, Friday, 13 October 2017 21:24 (six years ago) link
Also, that even in one's fantasy life, boundaries can be a good thing. Although I kind of lacked the distance to practice this until my 30s.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Tuesday, 17 October 2017 20:14 (six years ago) link
did you imagine having more than one wife and the fantasy really got out of hand?
― mh, Tuesday, 17 October 2017 20:27 (six years ago) link
I think some restrictions on face-coverings are reasonable, not a total public ban but at least requiring removal in certain scenarios, e.g. where identification is required.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Friday, 20 October 2017 16:00 (six years ago) link
I don't know if that's a conservative belief. The idea that someone could cover their face while taking a photo for their ID seems... insane???
― Mordy, Friday, 20 October 2017 16:01 (six years ago) link
pee is stored in the balls
― midas / medusa cage match (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 20 October 2017 16:09 (six years ago) link
The idea that someone could cover their face while taking a photo for their ID seems... insane???
Who does this?
― Terry Micawber (Tom D.), Friday, 20 October 2017 17:23 (six years ago) link
it's an issue that has come up. afaik most places do not allow it tho some states allow accommodations.
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/LWVJ.pdf
Face veilsDepartments of motor vehicles vary considerably in their treatment of veiled women.Many states do not allow pictures with face coveringThe following twenty-two states fall in this category: Alabama, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.Many states are silent on the issueNineteen states are included in this category. These are: Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, and Vermont.Several states offer specific accommodationsNine states fall into this category.South Carolina, Michigan and West Virginia allow veiled women privacy in taking a full- faced picture.Kansas, Pennsylvania and Indiana allow veiled women a no-photo driver’s license. Montana exempts religious veils from the requirement of a full-faced picture. Washington allows pictures of veiled women, but stipulates that such driver’s licenses are not valid for identification purposes.Nevada allows photos with “drastic alteration of appearance.”
Departments of motor vehicles vary considerably in their treatment of veiled women.
Many states do not allow pictures with face covering
The following twenty-two states fall in this category: Alabama, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
Many states are silent on the issue
Nineteen states are included in this category. These are: Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, Georgia, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, and Vermont.
Several states offer specific accommodations
Nine states fall into this category.South Carolina, Michigan and West Virginia allow veiled women privacy in taking a full- faced picture.Kansas, Pennsylvania and Indiana allow veiled women a no-photo driver’s license. Montana exempts religious veils from the requirement of a full-faced picture. Washington allows pictures of veiled women, but stipulates that such driver’s licenses are not valid for identification purposes.Nevada allows photos with “drastic alteration of appearance.”
― Mordy, Friday, 20 October 2017 17:31 (six years ago) link
― Neanderthal, Friday, October 7, 2016 10:14 AM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Came here to post this. Also believe Leonard Peltier to be guilty as well. And that activism that supports them and disingenuously elides their likely guilt is unethical.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 21:02 (six years ago) link
i've never watched more than a stray minute of it, and i know a lot of people that love it, but Democracy Now seems really bad to me
― flopson, Monday, 20 November 2017 23:20 (six years ago) link
Now or ever tbh
― fake pato is kind of racist, dude (darraghmac), Monday, 20 November 2017 23:21 (six years ago) link
democracy? in THIS economy??
― flopson, Monday, 20 November 2017 23:49 (six years ago) link
I kind of RMDE every time I see a social justice "educator" on facebook asking people to paypal them money for doing the emotional labor of posting stuff on facebook.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 15:43 (six years ago) link
that's a much more mild reaction than i would have
― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:11 (six years ago) link
Yeah, that's not something I've seen on FB so far. Is it really a thing?
― Moodles, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:17 (six years ago) link
I've seen it a few times in the last few months, seems like a fairly new thing.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:45 (six years ago) link
The pattern I have generally seen is someone will make some "problematic" post, then an "educator" will step in and insist that they need to make it clear why the post is problematic, and they're right but usually do so in an extremely OTT and hand-wringy way, then they either mention their paypal account or one of their friends will say something like "Thank you so much, can I please send you some money for doing the emotional labor of educated everyone here?"
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:47 (six years ago) link
I've seen everything you describe up until the Paypal part.
― Evan, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:49 (six years ago) link
My sweet christ
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 16:56 (six years ago) link
some colleagues in my field who do a lot of social justice work often complain about conference invites & speakerships & the "emotional labor" required to speak on these topics esp for white audiences and i understand the desire not to be tokenized as a "diversity speaker" but on the other hand you are getting recognition and people are interested in hearing you speak and want to learn from you! most people in our field are not getting that attention
― marcos, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 17:08 (six years ago) link
one person in particular tweets about this all the time and it ends up just looking like a humble brag
― marcos, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 17:09 (six years ago) link
How do become an "educator"
― brimstead, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:24 (six years ago) link
set up a paypal account obvs
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:30 (six years ago) link
The iteration of this I saw recently was where a kind of dumb and naive-seeming white lady posted something about wanting to ship her used clothing to some woman in Kenya that she met through facebook. A bunch of people were already sort of gently explaining why she might be making the wrong assumptions, why used clothing is actually over-abundant in places like Kenya, etc. so it was already kind of unnecessary and then the "educator" jumped in like "I'm sorry, but I really need to explain why this is so problematic and completely erases people of color and..." etc. with all the current catchphrases and jargon. And then somewhere along the line her paypal account came up.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:32 (six years ago) link
the sad thing is that she's begging for money on fb when there are plenty of diversity regime positions open to applicants that pay a steady wage
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:41 (six years ago) link
I have a friend who did this once. Seemed ridiculous but I admired the chutzpah.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:44 (six years ago) link
Maybe they're sensitivity readers (who sometimes get paid) who aren't getting any rough drafts sent to them.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:45 (six years ago) link
This would be a good schtick for a sockpuppwr though. Posting on social justice threads and then directing other posters to their paypal account.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:46 (six years ago) link
what happens when the educators start getting into disagreements with each other?
no wait, that's the internet
― after "after cease to exist" (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:47 (six years ago) link
so you guys aren't subscribed to the safety pin box then?
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:48 (six years ago) link
No, but I actually have two acquaintances from the neighborhood who are, who are also involved in some kind of racial justice org called SURJ, and whose walls were one of the places I first encountered these educators-for-hire. So there seems to be a nexus to all of that.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:50 (six years ago) link
oh yeah the white people anti-racism org. lol. such a great idea!
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:56 (six years ago) link
lol, the first time I met one of the people (at a meeting where people were saying what orgs they were from, tbc) she introduced herself like this "I'm ___, I'm from SURJ, and I organize white people."
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:57 (six years ago) link
i'm glad somebody's doing that, i'm a mess
― after "after cease to exist" (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 18:59 (six years ago) link
I was looking at a friend-of-friend's facebook profile after I saw she'd commented on the same post I had and was curious who she was and it was a white woman with a black husband who was posting about attending a SURJ event and I just blinked a few times and closed the browser. Still no idea how to feel
― mh, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:11 (six years ago) link
haha i hate the word "educator." i'm a teacher dammit. when did that become insufficiently fancy as a name for what we do?
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:31 (six years ago) link
it's pronounced "edjumicator"
― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:39 (six years ago) link
some people need to get teached
― Evan, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:50 (six years ago) link
"learnifying engineerimicator" is the current term iirc
― didgeridon't (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:52 (six years ago) link
The thinky captain
― Evan, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:58 (six years ago) link
― horseshoe, Wednesday, December 6, 2017 12:31 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's like 'comedian' vs 'humorist'... you know just by the title that one could be funny, while the other DEFINITELY won't be
― sleepingbag, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 20:50 (six years ago) link
SJW Peddlerman
― sonnet by a wite kid, "On Æolian Grief" (wins), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 20:54 (six years ago) link
I think in the past I only saw "humorist" applied to someone who worked in writing, like James Thurber
― mh, Wednesday, 6 December 2017 20:56 (six years ago) link
It seems also like there has been a gradual shift in the meanings of humor and comedy, with the older meanings being less directly tied to "stuff that will make you laugh out loud."
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 21:23 (six years ago) link
But still, fuck that shit, it's boring.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Wednesday, 6 December 2017 21:24 (six years ago) link
not related to uncool conservative opinions but wrt to paypal I just saw someone who tweeted a short 6-post thread on why the nyer "cat person" is a short story work of fiction and not a "piece" or an "article" after it got a little traction she said "if you are using this thread in your creative writing seminar here is my paypal link"
― marcos, Monday, 11 December 2017 14:09 (six years ago) link
niiiice
― mh, Monday, 11 December 2017 14:31 (six years ago) link
after the year where multiple idiots got famous enough via bad political ideas on twitter to live off of crowdfunding despite having backgrounds in poetry or something, I feel the door is open wide enough that anyone who gets a foothold has a fair chance of breaking through
pure american entrepreneurship is alive
― mh, Monday, 11 December 2017 14:33 (six years ago) link
when the crowdfunded liberal bubble bursts the apple podcast app will be a wasteland of abandoned podcast husks that male vitality serum companies will take over like old urls
― President Keyes, Monday, 11 December 2017 14:41 (six years ago) link
i like christmas trees & christmas decorations
― marcos, Monday, 11 December 2017 19:32 (six years ago) link
Discussion of things on the internet is a bad thing
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Monday, 11 December 2017 19:41 (six years ago) link
― marcos, Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM (seventeen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
me too. i have a gaudy decorated corner of my office cubicle and everything
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 11 December 2017 19:50 (six years ago) link
markets + money are the best solution to the problem of allocating limited resources to people who don't agree on how they should be allocated
people who are critical of capitalism are often just bad at it
― the late great, Monday, 11 December 2017 19:54 (six years ago) link
After discovering Lil Pump:
1) Where are this boy's parents?2) How is everybody involved with his career not being charged with Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor?3) Where is the system?
I guess I could have had the same thoughts re: Lil Wayne back in the '90s, but I was not-yet-old-enough then to have those type of thoughts.
― naus, Wednesday, 13 December 2017 07:07 (six years ago) link
Poor Lil Pump. Another aspiring young artist cut down by the scourge of fentanyl. Will his senseless death finally be what it takes to spur us to action. Thoughts and... Wait, what's that you say? Wrong guy? They made another one?
― how's life, Wednesday, 13 December 2017 10:27 (six years ago) link
I believe Juanita Broadderick 100% and the people on the left who see complications there are fucking cowardly enablers
― President Keyes, Sunday, 17 December 2017 02:02 (six years ago) link
your mom is hot
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map), Sunday, 17 December 2017 02:16 (six years ago) link
― the late great, Monday, December 11, 2017 7:54 PM (six days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
these i both totally agree with fwiw but i don't think they're actually conservative! lol
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map), Sunday, 17 December 2017 02:17 (six years ago) link
it's cool that the only 2 good ilx threads this year are 'Post a controvesial opinion' and this one imo
― flopson, Sunday, 17 December 2017 03:48 (six years ago) link
my conservative belief is that this thread is actually bad
― Men's Scarehouse - "You're gonna like the way you're shook." (m bison), Sunday, 17 December 2017 03:49 (six years ago) link
that's a sign that it is good
― flopson, Sunday, 17 December 2017 03:52 (six years ago) link
― The times they are a changing, perhaps (map)
the true conservative belief is "your 12 year old daughter is hot"
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, 17 December 2017 03:52 (six years ago) link
rolling explaining conservatism however, is bad
― flopson, Saturday, December 16, 2017 9:52 PM (thirty-eight seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
reflexive counterintuition is the most conservative thing itt
― Men's Scarehouse - "You're gonna like the way you're shook." (m bison), Sunday, 17 December 2017 03:53 (six years ago) link
nothing conservative about challops
― bob lefse (rushomancy), Sunday, 17 December 2017 04:18 (six years ago) link
Flopsotm
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 17 December 2017 11:49 (six years ago) link
this thread is good but it's bad for you like eclairs
― Mordy, Sunday, 17 December 2017 15:27 (six years ago) link
some foods are just better with butter, and attempts to equate "contemporary" culinary attempts using butter substitutes to the deliciousness of the butter-y versions feel like a misuse of affirmative action
― sarahell, Saturday, 23 December 2017 21:27 (six years ago) link
insert "cultured" butter pun
― the late great, Saturday, 23 December 2017 21:29 (six years ago) link
― the late great, Monday, December 11, 2017 7:54 PM
bro didn't you have a trust fund
― clouds, Wednesday, 27 December 2017 18:55 (six years ago) link
a trust fund is for sure the best way to be good at capitalism
― Mordy, Wednesday, 27 December 2017 19:02 (six years ago) link
So if I'm "bad" at "Capitalism" I'm just SOL basically?
― brimstead, Wednesday, 27 December 2017 19:26 (six years ago) link
lol i have no trust fund, not sure where you got that idea
― the late great, Wednesday, 27 December 2017 20:08 (six years ago) link
you’re not SOL brimstead, have a growth mindset, get better at it
― the late great, Wednesday, 27 December 2017 20:12 (six years ago) link
There's other things you can do but whinging that capitalism doesn't suit u is prob not one of the most constructive of those things
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Wednesday, 27 December 2017 20:41 (six years ago) link
god will you stop advocating armed insurrection?
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 27 December 2017 22:46 (six years ago) link
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6dje_kMZZJc/Vk3v8TsBJlI/AAAAAAABBps/3X6psYJn4Uw/s400/vikingkittens.JPG
― infinity (∞), Wednesday, 27 December 2017 23:07 (six years ago) link
v few ppl really take part in capitalism in a way which cld be assessed, unless you count that itself as being bad at capitalism, which is imo unsound
― ogmor, Thursday, 28 December 2017 01:14 (six years ago) link
I aM bAd at cApiTaliSM
― Scatperson (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-whore.) (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 28 December 2017 03:43 (six years ago) link
I prefer being bad at basketball to being bad at capitalism cos then all that happens is I miss wide open jumpers instead of winding up bankrupt
― fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Thursday, 28 December 2017 04:41 (six years ago) link
b-b-b-but what about yr jump shot!?!?!
― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Thursday, 28 December 2017 05:05 (six years ago) link
I'll just be an enforcer and foul Durant 6 times a game
― fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Thursday, 28 December 2017 05:20 (six years ago) link
cool, here's 3.7 mill per year for you
― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Thursday, 28 December 2017 05:25 (six years ago) link
that's it? fuck it I'm going into hedge funds
― fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Thursday, 28 December 2017 05:36 (six years ago) link
into hedge funds vs into geodes
― Scatperson (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-whore.) (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 28 December 2017 11:24 (six years ago) link
I hate the word empathy. Especially when it is used by social justice oriented k-12 educators, as in, “schools should teach kids empathy,” as if this alone would be enough to teach them moral reasoning. Empathy is a totally subjective and even narcissistic basis for morality. The idea is that you should care about someone because you also can understand and feel their pain, not because they just are a person with equal rights and dignity.
― treeship 2, Friday, 29 December 2017 16:29 (six years ago) link
The general principle of trying to see things from other people’s perspectives is A+ classic, but the term “empathy” has taken on a weird sanctimoniousness. I also think it shouldn’t be conflated with morality because it doesn’t necedsarily lead one to make better decisions.
― treeship 2, Friday, 29 December 2017 16:38 (six years ago) link
Also rightly or wrongly I associate the term with teachers who idly speculate that disruptive students are sociopaths.
― treeship 2, Friday, 29 December 2017 16:42 (six years ago) link
This made me remember that I had a teacher in HS that gave us 5 extra points on any test as long as we wrong the definition of empathy at the bottom of it. He was big into the empathy.
― Jeff, Friday, 29 December 2017 16:43 (six years ago) link
it's weird how quickly empathy for people who annoy us evaporates
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Friday, 29 December 2017 16:48 (six years ago) link
Yeah it appeals to a certain kind of soft authoritarian teacher. It’s not enough for the kids to do the right things; they have to feel the right way about it.
n.b. I couldn’t cut it as an educator in a high needs school and left the profession so my ideas on this topic shouldn’t be yaken too seriously.
― treeship 2, Friday, 29 December 2017 16:50 (six years ago) link
xp Jeffrey
ha I would go the other way and say morality is the more troubling sanctimonious term and empathy is all you need, but I get what you're saying & writing ppl off as sociopaths is ofc not all that empathetic
― ogmor, Friday, 29 December 2017 17:06 (six years ago) link
imho people should be taught morality and empathy as concepts in the same way they are taught logic and the water cycle. the social contract, government and economics, and basic games stem from that, history is the evidence base, and by age 19 people should be able to explain in multiple ways why mutually assured destruction didn’t come to pass
― El Tomboto, Friday, 29 December 2017 17:59 (six years ago) link
tbf have u ever truly have an h.o.? i say this as someone who similarly never has so no judgement.
― Mordy, Friday, 29 December 2017 18:00 (six years ago) link
h.o.?
― .oO (silby), Friday, 29 December 2017 18:02 (six years ago) link
why is teaching morality and empathy an uncool conservative opinion?
those are good things to teach children
― infinity (∞), Friday, 29 December 2017 18:12 (six years ago) link
Toms had lots of h.oes iirv
― fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Friday, 29 December 2017 18:21 (six years ago) link
Iirc
― fuck you, your hat is horrible (Neanderthal), Friday, 29 December 2017 18:22 (six years ago) link
if I rephrase vulgarly
― Frederik B, Friday, 29 December 2017 18:36 (six years ago) link
U say tom@hoes
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Friday, 29 December 2017 18:43 (six years ago) link
luv2tom8hoes
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Friday, 29 December 2017 19:03 (six years ago) link
Empathy is a totally subjective and even narcissistic basis for morality. The idea is that you should care about someone because you also can understand and feel their pain, not because they just are a person with equal rights and dignity.
― treeship 2, Friday, December 29, 2017 8:29 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
sorry but this is so fucking dumb i can't even
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 19:32 (six years ago) link
or maybe you just need a dictionary
wow that's extremely harsh that someone has a slightly different opinion from your superficial ad hoc social media mediated opinions on life
― Mordy, Friday, 29 December 2017 19:49 (six years ago) link
like he's just arguing deontology there over intimate affective association but i guess he needs a dictionary bc clearly he's a moron
― Mordy, Friday, 29 December 2017 19:52 (six years ago) link
Conflating sympathy with empathy is sloppy.
Wanting others not to suffer is part of basic decency and kindness. Feeling concerned or sad about another's suffering is sympathy (feeling for, as opposed to feeling with).
Empathy means to suffer along with them, to literally feel their pain.
― twas in the fleek midwinter (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 29 December 2017 20:13 (six years ago) link
i'm seeing a guy about my deontology next week, gotta get a cavity filled
― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Friday, 29 December 2017 20:18 (six years ago) link
pause
I share treeship’s discomfort with the notion of teaching empathy. Not because it’s not valuable but because I’m not sure it can be taught. The move in education toward teaching it seems ill-grounded to me.I don’t know any teachers who believe it is important to teach empathy who idly speculate that their disruptive students are sociopaths. I don’t think I recognize the kind of teacher you’re talking about there, treeship.
― horseshoe, Friday, 29 December 2017 20:23 (six years ago) link
imo one way people learn empathy is through art
― flopson, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:47 (six years ago) link
― Mordy, Friday, December 29, 2017 11:49 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
you're talking to treeship2 here, right?
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:49 (six years ago) link
and duh it was meant to be extremely harsh
lol @ social media mediated, though, not sure what that's about
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:51 (six years ago) link
i don't know what deontology means, i mean obviously i'm completely full of crap here dude c'mon now..
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:54 (six years ago) link
empathy is a key part of restorative justice
if you believe in restorative justice as an educational practice you need to train kids to have empathy
in twelve years of teaching i have had literally hundreds of conversations that go like this
“Tell me what you did” / “how do you think that made your classmate feel”
― the late great, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:54 (six years ago) link
“Do you want to make other people feel like that?” / “how can you make it better” / “what will you do differently going forward”
― the late great, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:55 (six years ago) link
maybe i don't know what empathy is. i guess i don't see a meaningful distinct between acknowledging that others experience pain vs. acknowledged/accepting that certain kind of pain exist. treeship seems to be saying that empathy is subjective or something.. i don't know. fuck everybody.
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:57 (six years ago) link
i don't know what it means either
In moral philosophy, deontological ethics or deontology (from Greek δέον, deon, "obligation, duty") is the normative ethical position that judges the morality of an action based on rules. It is sometimes described as "duty-" or "obligation-" or "rule-" based ethics, because rules "bind you to your duty".
― flopson, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:57 (six years ago) link
no...
People often confuse the words empathy and sympathy. Empathy means ‘the ability to understand and share the feelings of another’ (as in both authors have the skill to make you feel empathy with their heroines), whereas sympathy means ‘feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune’ (as in they had great sympathy for the flood victims)
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 21:59 (six years ago) link
who the fuck cares, please kill me, etc
i think BUS UNCLE described the spirit of empathy perfectly, seriously
― brimstead, Friday, 29 December 2017 22:00 (six years ago) link
empathy is narcissistic is a v good challop
is 'i would delight in this person's suffering, but *sigh* they are a person with equal rights and dignity' really less narcissitic than 'do unto others'? seems harder to teach kids, for sure. what even is the basis for 'equal rights and dignity' if not some form of empathy?
― flopson, Friday, 29 December 2017 22:03 (six years ago) link
Late great is totally right. Empathy is teachable both in the pro-social practices described above, and as “perspective taking” which is an essential component of humanities education. Challop, I’d imagine, but part of the reason I think there are so many greedy MBA jerkwads is because they have shorted the liberal arts / humanities component of their education.
― rb (soda), Friday, 29 December 2017 22:14 (six years ago) link
paul bloom's "Against Empathy" is worth reading; here's a short version: http://bostonreview.net/forum/paul-bloom-against-empathy
― rob, Friday, 29 December 2017 22:20 (six years ago) link
flopson is correct imo, I think what treeship was trying to express is that human beings deserve to be treated fairly by us whether or not we empathize with them; the problem is, it's hard to imagine getting people to agree to do this without appealing to empathy on some level
contra the definition given above, btw, here is m-w's definition of empathy:
: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this
I am not familiar with the pedagogical research on this topic, but if it is true that the field is moving toward "teaching" empathy I would imagine there is some evidence that suggests it is effective. it also seems like there is little downside to this
― k3vin k., Friday, 29 December 2017 22:29 (six years ago) link
xp i like the distinction between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. i guess i try to teach the former rather than the latter.
― the late great, Friday, 29 December 2017 22:39 (six years ago) link
i could see a radical left argument against empathy; that you really do have to hate your oppressors, and not feel a lick of empathy for them. class solidarity as the basis for morality rather than empathy. but tbh that's the fashy side of leftism that has always creeped me out
― flopson, Friday, 29 December 2017 23:40 (six years ago) link
there's some interesting stuff brought up in that bloom article...
Being a good person likely is more related to distanced feelings of compassion and kindness, along with intelligence, self-control, and a sense of justice. Being a bad person has more to do with a lack of regard for others and an inability to control one’s appetites.
...but this seems v neatly wrongheaded: focus on personal virtue; failure to question 'morality' even at all after laborious and not v fruitful breakdown of empathy; seeming to shoot himself in the foot by primarily equating badness with a lack of 'regard for others'
― ogmor, Friday, 29 December 2017 23:47 (six years ago) link
I wasn’t trying to make an argument like that. I wasn’t even making a case against empathy itself but the discourse around the word, where it is used synonymously with morality, like the basis of being moral is being able to assmiliate someone else’s pain into your own subjective experience. And then my whole experience in education/restorative justice where it wasn’t enough to have the kids learn what the rules were, they had to internalize our value system, or at least parrot it back to us. (They couldn’t leave the “restoration room” until they explained how their actions hurt the learning community. They couldn’t just do thw time, they had to feel bad.) How abiur don’t throw scissors because it’s outrageously dangerous; don’t disrupt the class because, whether or not you agree, it’s better for everyone if the class is able to complete the learning activity the teacher planned.
― treeship 2, Friday, 29 December 2017 23:49 (six years ago) link
Xp flopson. Didn’t read the bloom article yet. Seems promising
This specific school was a mess though. Restorative justice is no doubt practiced more effectively elsewhere. Here it just opened the door to constant bargaining and arguing, as the kids would spend so much time being made to reflect on menial nonsense rather than academics. I really think the way we did it was worse than the old fashioned “you don’t have to agree with my rules but you have to follow them.” At least there’s transparency in that case.
― treeship 2, Friday, 29 December 2017 23:54 (six years ago) link
oh ya i wasn't attributing that argument to you, just spitballing what an argument Against Empathy could be. i like the pt you make about how focus on empathy enables "teachers who idly speculate that disruptive students are sociopaths"
― flopson, Friday, 29 December 2017 23:56 (six years ago) link
when i act charitably towards another it is rarely because of empathy and when it is primarily because of generated emotional affiliation i tend to resent it (what feels like emotional manipulation). i do it because i know what the right thing to do is (because i was taught that charitable acts are good) and because i have enough self-discipline to force myself to do it. moral knowledge (what is good to do) and discipline (forcing yourself to do the good thing) seem much more important to me than empathy. nb i'm not saying there's no room for empathy in helping to produce moral outcomes (if you do something good, even if you resent it, it's still good).
― Mordy, Friday, 29 December 2017 23:57 (six years ago) link
in general i'm v skeptical of this project of elevating our global consciousness and thereby perfecting the world. i think instead of inculcating empathy we're generating neuroticism. ppl need positive (not just reactive) visions of how to act in the world as a good person that aren't merely ideology/politics. iow ppl who preach empathy but act shitty towards ppl are a feature of the project, not a bug.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:02 (six years ago) link
does it bother you at all that someone cld do/justify horrific things with that approach?
― ogmor, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:02 (six years ago) link
with which approach? teaching children what is good to do and helping them develop the discipline to do it? what's the alternative? just relying on every individual's subjective experience + instinct to guide what is good?
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:04 (six years ago) link
I wonder if there are empathetic arguments always underpinning deontological ethics tho - the Golden Rule for example is explicitly empathetic?
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:06 (six years ago) link
xp the combo of moral certainty/confidence and self-discipline doesn't have too hot a history
― ogmor, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:07 (six years ago) link
how do you mean “teaching what is good”
you mean telling, or something else?
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:08 (six years ago) link
there's a difference between what we believe about the best method for inculcating morality and what we believe is the basis of morality
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:09 (six years ago) link
well put!
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:10 (six years ago) link
anyway i would argue that moral knowledge and empathy are inextricably tied
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:12 (six years ago) link
children are really bad at two things, among others
1) projecting their actions into the future2) putting themselves in someone else’s shoes
imo teaching these two things is a good thing to do, and critical for helping give kids a moral compass (as well as helping them have discipline)
btw i would argue these two learning experiences are much more important than academics
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:16 (six years ago) link
if a kid can’t project possible outcome “i might hit a kid I. the eye” then throwing scissors will always be just a funny gag. if they can’t feel sympathy for someone hit by flying scissors in the eye then it’s a lot harder to keep them from throwing those scissors when there is no authority figure around
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:20 (six years ago) link
just relying on every individual's subjective experience + instinct to guide what is good?
let me tell you about something called constructivism ...
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:21 (six years ago) link
i do it because i know what the right thing to do is (because i was taught that charitable acts are good)
how do you know that what you were taught was right? you could compress this into 'i do it because i was taught to do it'. dubious to call it 'moral knowledge' if it's just what you were taught
― flopson, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:22 (six years ago) link
― the late great, Friday, December 29, 2017 6:16 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
my man
― Men's Scarehouse - "You're gonna like the way you're shook." (m bison), Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:26 (six years ago) link
Here it just opened the door to constant bargaining and arguing, as the kids would spend so much time being made to reflect on menial nonsense
um but you’re on ilx all day every day and besides how much else is to functioning as an adult in society
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:31 (six years ago) link
is there to, not is to
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:32 (six years ago) link
burn
― Men's Scarehouse - "You're gonna like the way you're shook." (m bison), Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:33 (six years ago) link
because i have enough self-discipline to force myself to do it
O_o
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:33 (six years ago) link
it’s not a burn! it’s serious! morality, good living, whatever is socially mediated and constantly negotiated. hence why were all on ilx all day (some more than others) arguing about us politics or whatever. it’s what adults do and it’s a good use of time for kids to practice it too!
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:36 (six years ago) link
i agree! but also u r hella roasting him and it's good.
― Men's Scarehouse - "You're gonna like the way you're shook." (m bison), Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:37 (six years ago) link
mordy come on admit it when you do good things it feels good not bad
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:41 (six years ago) link
iirc mordy has expressed in the past that the feeling good about doing good part cheapens the doing good part, by making it selfish
― flopson, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:44 (six years ago) link
of course when i do good things it feels good (and wanting to feel good can be a powerful motivation) but how about things where it doesn't feel good - where i'm being asked to put myself out to an extraordinary degree, or give a lot of money, and it's very hard to do. in those cases empathy doesn't help me get there and wanting to feel good doesn't get me there. knowing it's the right thing to do and overriding my more base desires is what works. ymmv.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:45 (six years ago) link
I wouldn’t put it like that myself but I guess I would summarize the (my) Jewish perspective on doing good as doing good because it’s obligatory, not because it’s a good idea or feels good. Which is to say, the most good thing to do is to do good because you have to, with doing good because you want to rather less praiseworthy.
― .oO (silby), Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:47 (six years ago) link
hmmm ... ok. kinda makes sense, you don’t want to morality to be a facade over self-interest.
sorry if i am ranting, i have a flu and fever and am hi on the quil
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:47 (six years ago) link
mmm silby i get what you’re saying (because the concept of obedience to god is important in my religion too)
but as a teacher my thoughts go toward academics
what if some students approached learning as “i have to do this to 1) get paid 2) not get my ass whooped or 3) because my culture demands it” ... and if i told you that people who approach learning for these reasons tend not to do very well when they transition between educational settings? i don’t want to belabor the analogy
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:52 (six years ago) link
maybe “tend not to do well” is too strong
but i have found, ime that students who approach things from the perspective of “accomplishing things feels good” or “doing my best feels good” or “challenging myself is fun” tend to do very well, over all
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:55 (six years ago) link
they regulate themselves better when they escape parental supervision, when expected rewards don’t materialize as expected, when they leave their communities, etc
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:58 (six years ago) link
maybe the counter argument is that you’re never estranged from god or out from under his watch?
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:59 (six years ago) link
I’m sure your otm tlg about the educational setting I was just tryin to add color to flopson’s remark abt Mordy, but I then xp’d with Mordy
― .oO (silby), Saturday, 30 December 2017 01:29 (six years ago) link
Of the ~ 100 students who come through my classroom every year, there is at least a double digit percentage who don’t have home access to explicit instruction in manners, morality, citizenship (beyond the “stop hitting your brother before I hit you” variety) or kindness as a practice. Teaching empathy is a democratizing pedagogy, and brings social skills it to students who wouldn’t otherwise be able to directly discuss it with adults due to circumstances, uninvolved parents, or avoidance of “gooshy stuff” on behalf of th students themselves.if the fact that the eventual “goodness” of these students is cheapened or insincere because it is academic is bothersome to you.... so what? It’s better than forcing students to figure out some empathy/moral/ethical judgment in the school of used knocks.The argument against teaching empathy as a pathway to character education is essentially the argument against teaching phonics as pathway to literacy. “You’ll read when oI you’re meant to” or “I learned just fine without learning phonics” or “my kid was reading when she was three”
― rb (soda), Saturday, 30 December 2017 01:37 (six years ago) link
Sorry for the messiness I’d that post. Typing on Zing at the gym.
― rb (soda), Saturday, 30 December 2017 01:38 (six years ago) link
from the "against empathy" article, which i hadn't heard of before but which i enjoyed:
It is worth expanding on the difference between empathy and compassion, because some of empathy’s biggest fans are confused on this point and think that the only force that can motivate kindness is empathetic arousal. But this is mistaken. Imagine that the child of a close friend has drowned. A highly empathetic response would be to feel what your friend feels, to experience, as much as you can, the terrible sorrow and pain. In contrast, compassion involves concern and love for your friend, and the desire and motivation to help, but it need not involve mirroring your friend’s anguish.
this is pretty much the distinction i was trying to make. with regard to education, i mostly just was questioning why "empathy" is used so much in the discourse, especially around restorative practices, rather than more tangible virtues like conscientiousness, compassion, fairness, whatever. empathy is a feeling and you can't teach someone to feel something.
― treeship 2, Saturday, 30 December 2017 06:42 (six years ago) link
the kid with the scissors in the eye should stfu and empathise with the disruptive joys of the scissor thrower
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 30 December 2017 06:49 (six years ago) link
xp cmon man did u even read the article there is a clear distinction between cognitive and emotional empathy
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 06:52 (six years ago) link
i should probably stay out of this argument
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 30 December 2017 06:53 (six years ago) link
I have had the bloom book on top of the pile for a minute but an ex accused me of being 'incapable of empathy' and I just don't know if I can bring myself to read it
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 30 December 2017 06:54 (six years ago) link
'there is a clear distinction between cognitive and emotional empathy'
this seems to be an indication that there's something to treeship's use-other-words-please attitude, doesn't it? that if we need to distinguish these concepts and often don't (as seems to be the case with the people around treeship) then continuing to deploy 'empathy' in an unquestioning way indicates we're sublimating some kind of thought. this isn't necessarily a bad thing -- mb there are evidence based studies that this results in students less likely to be violent than being given a different kind of ethics
i'm not saying the below is bad praxis:
― the late great, Friday, December 29, 2017 9:54 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― the late great, Friday, December 29, 2017 9:55 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
but is the goal here 'teaching empathy'? or is the goal to get the kid to demonstrate 'emotional empathy' (or at least convince the adult they possess this quantity) and go through the workings of how it can be applied cognitively to arrive at something more utilitarian?
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 30 December 2017 07:05 (six years ago) link
sure
i would argue that for a child understanding compassion is much more difficult than empathizing emotionally
what we’re doing is teaching compassion using empathy (something kids already possess) as the hook (in constructivism there is always a hook)
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 07:21 (six years ago) link
imo kids who have trouble empathizing often just haven’t thought about it very hard, or had a calm, supportive environment to do it in (see the point up thread about being around adults that escalate quickly to yellin, intimidation or violence as behavior management tool)
hence the restoration room
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 07:23 (six years ago) link
this is becoming reveal yr uncool mushy liberal beliefs
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 07:29 (six years ago) link
welp, fair enough
my mistrust of 'empathy' isn't motivated by its use in pedagogy but i. ways people deploy it interpersonally as a shield from analysing their own behavior ii. apparent problems with scaling it to members of an outgroup
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 30 December 2017 07:49 (six years ago) link
i think mordy is actually on the right track re ii -- beyond a certain level of abstraction 'well, how would you feel' isn't a sufficient ethical code
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Saturday, 30 December 2017 07:51 (six years ago) link
yes, I would say empathy is a good foundation rather than an end point
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 08:01 (six years ago) link
i've been reading gk chesteron's "the everlasting man" (1925) that supposedly turned c.s. lewis from atheist to christian and this graf feels apposite:
What is the psychology that sustains the terrible and wonderful thing called a war? Nobody who knows anything of soldiers believes the silly notion of the dons, that millions of men can be ruled by force. If they were all to slack, it would be impossible to punish all the slackers. And the least little touch of slacking would lose a whole campaign in half a day. What did men really feel about the policy? If it be said that they accepted the policy from the politician, what did they feel about the politician? If the vassals warred blindly for their prince what did those blind men see in their prince?
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 30 December 2017 11:06 (six years ago) link
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:55 (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― the late great, Saturday, 30 December 2017 00:58 (twelve hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I feel these posts
But it doesn't lead us to a way to be good or do good in the world. It's a path towards achievement and happiness in a pretty specific field (and agreed you could swap fields eg career, romance, card games, whatever)
Tho I'd argue that to achieve and be happy (with an occasional concern that your chosen achievements are in a reasonably harmless area) is as unmuddy and safe a way to be good and do good as there is without coming up against the idiocy of Kant so if that was wrapped up in your posts then fair enough.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 December 2017 13:18 (six years ago) link
As a sidebar from the empathy convo, my uncool conservative belief is that "what if she was your mother/sister/daughter" is a reasonable starting place for getting men to consider how their actions affect women. I see this idea shouted down on social media every once in a while with "men should just treat women with respect because they are individual human beings and their relationship to a man shouldn't matter". I see what they're trying to do, but our family relationships do matter.
― how's life, Saturday, 30 December 2017 13:44 (six years ago) link
with respect not everybody has family relationships that matter to them
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 30 December 2017 13:45 (six years ago) link
See, I disagree with how’s life. Family relationshios matter but the principle of human equality is the salient thing in discussions about feminism.
― treeship 2, Saturday, 30 December 2017 14:14 (six years ago) link
Cool hows that message selling
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 December 2017 14:15 (six years ago) link
a lot of really interesting ideas in that bloom piece
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:13 (six years ago) link
this whole bit here:
It is no accident that Baron-Cohen chose a woman as his example. In a series of empirical and theoretical articles, psychologists Vicki Helgeson and Heidi Fritz have explored why women are twice as likely as men to experience depression. Their results suggest that this divergence is explained in part by a sex difference in the propensity for “unmitigated communion,” defined as “an excessive concern with others and placing others’ needs before one’s own.” Helgeson and Fritz developed a simple nine-item questionnaire, which asks respondents to indicate whether they agree with statements such as, “For me to be happy, I need others to be happy,” “I can’t say no when someone asks me for help,” and “I often worry about others’ problems.” Women typically score higher than men on this scale; Hannah would, I bet, score high indeed.Strong inclination toward empathy comes with costs. Individuals scoring high in unmitigated communion report asymmetrical relationships, where they support others but don’t get support themselves. They also are more prone to suffer depression and anxiety. Working from a different literature on “pathological altruism,” Barbara Oakley notes in Cold-Blooded Kindness (2011), “It’s surprising how many diseases and syndromes commonly seen in women seem to be related to women’s generally stronger empathy for and focus on others.”The problems that arise here have to do with emotional empathy—feeling another’s pain. This leads to what psychologists call empathetic distress. We can contrast this with non-empathetic compassion—a more distanced love and kindness and concern for others. Such compassion is a psychological plus. Putting aside the obvious point that some degree of caring for others is morally right, kindness and altruism are associated with all sorts of positive physical and psychological outcomes, including a boost in both short-term mood and long-term happiness. If you want to get happy, helping others is an excellent way to do so.It is worth expanding on the difference between empathy and compassion, because some of empathy’s biggest fans are confused on this point and think that the only force that can motivate kindness is empathetic arousal. But this is mistaken. Imagine that the child of a close friend has drowned. A highly empathetic response would be to feel what your friend feels, to experience, as much as you can, the terrible sorrow and pain. In contrast, compassion involves concern and love for your friend, and the desire and motivation to help, but it need not involve mirroring your friend’s anguish.Or consider long-distance charity. It is conceivable, I suppose, that someone who hears about the plight of starving children might actually go through the empathetic exercise of imagining what it is like to starve to death. But this empathetic distress surely isn’t necessary for charitable giving. A compassionate person might value others’ lives in the abstract, and, recognizing the misery caused by starvation, be motivated to act accordingly.Summing up, compassionate helping is good for you and for others. But empathetic distress is destructive of the individual in the long run.It might also be of little help to other people because experiencing others’ pain is exhausting and leads to burnout. This issue is explored in the Buddhist literature on morality. Consider the life of a bodhisattva, an enlightened person who vows not to pass into Nirvana, choosing instead to stay in the normal cycle of life and death to help the masses. How is a bodhisattva to live? In Consequences of Compassion (2009) Charles Goodman notes the distinction in Buddhists texts between “sentimental compassion,” which corresponds to empathy, and “great compassion,” which involves love for others without empathetic attachment or distress. Sentimental compassion is to be avoided, as it “exhausts the bodhisattva.” Goodman defends great compassion, which is more distanced and reserved and can be sustained indefinitely.This distinction has some support in the collaborative work of Tania Singer, a psychologist and neuroscientist, and Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist monk, meditation expert, and former scientist. In a series of studies using fMRI brain scanning, Ricard was asked to engage in various types of compassion meditation directed toward people who are suffering. To the surprise of the investigators, these meditative states did not activate parts of the brain that are normally activated by non-meditators when they think about others’ pain. Ricard described his meditative experience as “a warm positive state associated with a strong prosocial motivation.”He was then asked to put himself in an empathetic state and was scanned while doing so. Now the appropriate circuits associated with empathetic distress were activated. “The empathic sharing,” Ricard said, “very quickly became intolerable to me and I felt emotionally exhausted, very similar to being burned out.”One sees a similar contrast in ongoing experiments led by Singer and her colleagues in which people are either given empathy training, which focuses on the capacity to experience the suffering of others, or compassion training, in which subjects are trained to respond to suffering with feelings of warmth and care. According to Singer’s results, among test subjects who underwent empathy training, “negative affect was increased in response to both people in distress and even to people in everyday life situations. . . . these findings underline the belief that engaging in empathic resonance is a highly aversive experience and, as such, can be a risk factor for burnout.” Compassion training—which doesn’t involve empathetic arousal to the perceived distress of others—was more effective, leading to both increased positive emotions and increased altruism.This brings us to the targets of empathy. As I write this, an older relative of mine who has cancer is going back and forth to hospitals and rehabilitation centers. I’ve watched him interact with doctors and learned what he thinks of them. He values doctors who take the time to listen to him and develop an understanding of his situation; he benefits from this sort of cognitive empathy. But emotional empathy is more complicated. He gets the most from doctors who don’t feel as he does, who are calm when he is anxious, confident when he is uncertain. And he particularly appreciates certain virtues that have little directly to do with empathy, virtues such as competence, honesty, professionalism, and respect.
Strong inclination toward empathy comes with costs. Individuals scoring high in unmitigated communion report asymmetrical relationships, where they support others but don’t get support themselves. They also are more prone to suffer depression and anxiety. Working from a different literature on “pathological altruism,” Barbara Oakley notes in Cold-Blooded Kindness (2011), “It’s surprising how many diseases and syndromes commonly seen in women seem to be related to women’s generally stronger empathy for and focus on others.”
The problems that arise here have to do with emotional empathy—feeling another’s pain. This leads to what psychologists call empathetic distress. We can contrast this with non-empathetic compassion—a more distanced love and kindness and concern for others. Such compassion is a psychological plus. Putting aside the obvious point that some degree of caring for others is morally right, kindness and altruism are associated with all sorts of positive physical and psychological outcomes, including a boost in both short-term mood and long-term happiness. If you want to get happy, helping others is an excellent way to do so.
Or consider long-distance charity. It is conceivable, I suppose, that someone who hears about the plight of starving children might actually go through the empathetic exercise of imagining what it is like to starve to death. But this empathetic distress surely isn’t necessary for charitable giving. A compassionate person might value others’ lives in the abstract, and, recognizing the misery caused by starvation, be motivated to act accordingly.
Summing up, compassionate helping is good for you and for others. But empathetic distress is destructive of the individual in the long run.
It might also be of little help to other people because experiencing others’ pain is exhausting and leads to burnout. This issue is explored in the Buddhist literature on morality. Consider the life of a bodhisattva, an enlightened person who vows not to pass into Nirvana, choosing instead to stay in the normal cycle of life and death to help the masses. How is a bodhisattva to live? In Consequences of Compassion (2009) Charles Goodman notes the distinction in Buddhists texts between “sentimental compassion,” which corresponds to empathy, and “great compassion,” which involves love for others without empathetic attachment or distress. Sentimental compassion is to be avoided, as it “exhausts the bodhisattva.” Goodman defends great compassion, which is more distanced and reserved and can be sustained indefinitely.
This distinction has some support in the collaborative work of Tania Singer, a psychologist and neuroscientist, and Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist monk, meditation expert, and former scientist. In a series of studies using fMRI brain scanning, Ricard was asked to engage in various types of compassion meditation directed toward people who are suffering. To the surprise of the investigators, these meditative states did not activate parts of the brain that are normally activated by non-meditators when they think about others’ pain. Ricard described his meditative experience as “a warm positive state associated with a strong prosocial motivation.”
He was then asked to put himself in an empathetic state and was scanned while doing so. Now the appropriate circuits associated with empathetic distress were activated. “The empathic sharing,” Ricard said, “very quickly became intolerable to me and I felt emotionally exhausted, very similar to being burned out.”
One sees a similar contrast in ongoing experiments led by Singer and her colleagues in which people are either given empathy training, which focuses on the capacity to experience the suffering of others, or compassion training, in which subjects are trained to respond to suffering with feelings of warmth and care. According to Singer’s results, among test subjects who underwent empathy training, “negative affect was increased in response to both people in distress and even to people in everyday life situations. . . . these findings underline the belief that engaging in empathic resonance is a highly aversive experience and, as such, can be a risk factor for burnout.” Compassion training—which doesn’t involve empathetic arousal to the perceived distress of others—was more effective, leading to both increased positive emotions and increased altruism.
This brings us to the targets of empathy. As I write this, an older relative of mine who has cancer is going back and forth to hospitals and rehabilitation centers. I’ve watched him interact with doctors and learned what he thinks of them. He values doctors who take the time to listen to him and develop an understanding of his situation; he benefits from this sort of cognitive empathy. But emotional empathy is more complicated. He gets the most from doctors who don’t feel as he does, who are calm when he is anxious, confident when he is uncertain. And he particularly appreciates certain virtues that have little directly to do with empathy, virtues such as competence, honesty, professionalism, and respect.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:15 (six years ago) link
here's an uncool conservative belief:
history is not an arc that bends towards justice. it's pockets of temporary civility spread amidst a maelstrom of chaos. prepare accordingly.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:27 (six years ago) link
Not sure what about that is uncool or conservativebut your habit of branding yourself and your personal attitudes as both is definitely tiresome so I guess there’s that
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:36 (six years ago) link
i think you can figure out what is conservative about that statement. and uncool! not sure what your incivility is about though esp on this thread.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:38 (six years ago) link
But good excerpt, that article sorta got lost in the shuffle yesterday. If nothing else the distinctions it draws are useful for having a better discussion than the one this started out as
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:40 (six years ago) link
Sorry I’m grumpy
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:41 (six years ago) link
re that statement tho to see why it's conservative consider what it does to the word "progressive." for why it's uncool, consider what you have to do + feel to prepare for those pockets' inevitable close.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:43 (six years ago) link
another note on the empathy tangent that i don't remember being brought up is that empathy is morally indiscriminating. lots of literature exists that asks you (and succeeds!) to empathize w/ all kinds of moral criminals and their behavior. but just because you understand what the protagonist felt while he sinned doesn't mean you've learnt anything about how to either avoid or ameliorate the conditions that led to those feelings. some ppl (*not i*) even believe that literature is dangerous for this very reason - it can bring you into close communion with affect that can damage your morality. and that's why my rabbis searched my dorm room while i was out celebrating my seventeenth birthday and stole all my english literature novels (inc faulkner's as i lay dying + two kosiński novels which def goes to the morally questionable question). fwiw i can easily empathize with them - as a father† i deeply feel the anxiety of making sure my children are exposed to things that improve their character and not debilitate it and i know how easy it is to err in such determinations. but they were still v wrong imo to do it; my personal liberty to read what i wanted was more important. and it can actually be good for you to empathize with bad ppl in non-moral ways. it can develop your intellectual imagination for example which isn't inherently moral but can be used towards moral ends. †lol yes i know i know.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:52 (six years ago) link
good post
― imago, Saturday, 30 December 2017 15:55 (six years ago) link
Exposure to fictional or actual moral ambiguity does not influence the character of any person of any age
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 December 2017 16:05 (six years ago) link
Just broadens the palette
i'm pretty sure i agree or at the v least i'd like to believe it's true for my own sake but i'm not 100% convinced. i've met enough ppl who have constraints on their moral consumption who have more refined character than me. i'm pretty vulgar by comparison. nb that discussing refinement/vulgarity in moral terms is a whole other conversation in itself but i do see moral value in refinement fwiw.
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 16:11 (six years ago) link
Of course, you can sympathize plenty and then do exactly nothing about it.
I feel sad about the victims of the Kalapana earthquakes in 1975, and the St. Batholomew's Day Massacre, but I didn't do anything about either one. Lots of people felt sad about the 2004 tsunami and Sandy Hook, but haven't done anything about those either.
I think compassion (or empathy or whatever) is an important first step, but there is an argument to be made that to believe a moral judgement is to be disposed to act on it.
― twas in the fleek midwinter (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 30 December 2017 17:24 (six years ago) link
RIP
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 December 2017 18:14 (six years ago) link
I'm reading the bloom essay now and there's a lot of fascinating stuff here, though I'm a little skeptical of some of the science he cites regarding the downsides of emotional empathy
― k3vin k., Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:24 (six years ago) link
Well it’s not as if we’re in the midst of a replication crisis in social sciences
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:27 (six years ago) link
though as others have said, the distinction between "cognitive" and "emotional" empathy is not one I'd come across before and seems pretty useful
― k3vin k., Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:28 (six years ago) link
tbf that cuts both ways and i intentionally didn't bring it up above xp
― Mordy, Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:28 (six years ago) link
xp yeah I basically glossed over the couple of paragraphs starting with "in a series of studies using fMRI brain scanning..."
― k3vin k., Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:29 (six years ago) link
I really enjoyed the discussion of psychopathy, though I think bloom elides an important point toward the end of that discussion, when he mentions that
Finally, one decisive test of the low-empathy-makes-bad-people theory would be to study a group of people who lack empathy but also lack the other traits associated with psychopathy. Such individuals do exist. Baron-Cohen notes that people with Asperger syndrome and autism typically have low cognitive empathy—they struggle to understand the minds of others—and have low emotional empathy as well. (As with psychopaths, there is some controversy about whether they are incapable of empathy or choose not to deploy it.) Despite their empathy deficit, such people show no propensity for exploitation and violence. Indeed, they often have strong moral codes and are more likely to be victims of cruelty than perpetrators.
while it may be true that these people are unlikely to engage in manipulative/exploitative antisocial behavior, aggression and other behavioral problems are highly comorbid in this population. I would intuit that this relates in some way to their incapacity for empathy
― k3vin k., Saturday, 30 December 2017 19:50 (six years ago) link
That is not my general experience from 20+ years of working with autistic people. And like everybody working in the field Baron-Cohen's theories are not uncontested.
― a Rambo in curved air (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 30 December 2017 21:56 (six years ago) link
to be clear I was referring not to criminal behavior, but to maladaptive behaviors like tantrums, outbursts, and (mild) aggression, which are very well described
― k3vin k., Sunday, 31 December 2017 00:40 (six years ago) link
imo teaching these two things is a good thing to do, and critical for helping give kids a moral compass
I feel like this is something that should be done by a child's family or church or girl scout troop, or soccer team, and classroom time shouldn't be spent on teaching them how to act like a decent human being.
― sarahell, Sunday, 31 December 2017 01:37 (six years ago) link
idk, maybe the kids that suck at it can get assigned to some sort of special ed remedial class for "non-asshole studies".
― sarahell, Sunday, 31 December 2017 01:41 (six years ago) link
so personal responsibility, perfect thread for that!
― k3vin k., Sunday, 31 December 2017 01:41 (six years ago) link
well, this is the uncool conservative beliefs thread so
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Sunday, 31 December 2017 01:52 (six years ago) link
Or maybe I'm confused and "empathy" isn't it's own class and it's just something that gets taught alongside other academic material, or as part of P.E. or games period or whatever. I can see how it can work well as part of a history, or civics, or literature curriculum. As its own subject, though, it seems really contrived, and like the "say no to drugs" classes we had to take in the 80s that are now trendy ironic t-shirts sold to millenials. Maybe the next generation will buy empathy/restorative justice t-shirts and wear them ironically.
― sarahell, Sunday, 31 December 2017 01:59 (six years ago) link
child's family or church or girl scout troop, or soccer team,
absolutely! and i would say that ime most students have access to these things, and show up in my class with a lot of emotional intelligence, empathy and a moral compass. but sadly not everyone has access to these things, which is it’s so important for schools to give all students opportunities to participate in interest groups, community service, team sports, mentorship, etc etc to help them learn social skills (including empathy and so on)
― the late great, Sunday, 31 December 2017 02:41 (six years ago) link
xp just to be clear at my school we don’t teach empathy as part of any curriculum, and we don’t have “empathy days” the way we used to have “say no to drugs” days (oddly enough we don’t have “say no to drugs” days either!)
but when students fuck up and do stupid, mean, hurtful shit. Then i have to have one-on-ones with kids, and rather than applying the methods that were used on me as a kid (coercion via threat of punishment) i try to use it as a teachable moment to help them reflect and build cognitive empathy
― the late great, Sunday, 31 December 2017 02:47 (six years ago) link
classroom time shouldn't be spent on teaching them how to act like a decent human being
personally i would rather live in a world of decent illiterates than a world of educated sociopaths so that guides my priorities, ymmv (of course it’s never that black and white)
― the late great, Sunday, 31 December 2017 02:50 (six years ago) link
I feel like this is something that should be done by a child's family or church or girl scout troop, or soccer team,
The kids whose families aren't teaching them this stuff ain't bringing anyone to soccer practice imo
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 December 2017 03:01 (six years ago) link
Same
Xp
― Men's Scarehouse - "You're gonna like the way you're shook." (m bison), Sunday, 31 December 2017 03:02 (six years ago) link
TLG otm
― k3vin k., Sunday, 31 December 2017 03:43 (six years ago) link
tlg deserves the 'posting like a decent human being' award for work on this thread
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Sunday, 31 December 2017 11:21 (six years ago) link
Wrong thread for that
― Bitcoin Baja (wins), Sunday, 31 December 2017 11:50 (six years ago) link
Lame as fuck to use this thread as your judgy tickbox of the day tbh.
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 December 2017 11:57 (six years ago) link
Any other common venues for sexual abuse been left out there?
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Sunday, 31 December 2017 12:00 (six years ago) link
Ha
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 December 2017 12:01 (six years ago) link
special ed remedial class for "non-asshole studies"
Which (to stay on topic) most contemporary American conservatives would regard as "liberal reeducation camp for wrongthink"
― twas in the fleek midwinter (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 31 December 2017 14:41 (six years ago) link
child's family or church or girl scout troop, or soccer team,Any other common venues for sexual abuse been left out there?― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Sunday, December 31, 2017 4:00 AM (six hours ago)
― Whiney Houston (Tom D.), Sunday, December 31, 2017 4:00 AM (six hours ago)
what better way to learn empathy than as a victim of pedophilia?
― sarahell, Sunday, 31 December 2017 18:12 (six years ago) link
So really, the gropers are doing the kids a favor. You're welcome.
― sympathy for the tasmanian devil (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 31 December 2017 18:56 (six years ago) link
:-/
― the late great, Sunday, 31 December 2017 19:14 (six years ago) link
xp to thomp
Maybe one useful benchmark for this thread is, "Would Morrissey agree with your post?"
― sarahell, Sunday, 31 December 2017 19:17 (six years ago) link
your posts no itt? probably
― Joan Digimon (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 31 December 2017 19:21 (six years ago) link
i meant the above more or less sincerely
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Sunday, 31 December 2017 19:30 (six years ago) link
:-)
― the late great, Sunday, 31 December 2017 19:38 (six years ago) link
Porn and sex work in general is not empowering, is gross, and is damaging to the workers and consumers, unless they are already total sociopaths
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 02:54 (six years ago) link
i have a thread for you
― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 03:12 (six years ago) link
gimme more james morrison
― marcos, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 03:21 (six years ago) link
a friend and a cousin of mine, both in their 30s, died of opioid overdoses in november. i don't see a reason to think that they were victims of anything other than the decisions they made. i feel uncool in this thought.
― Yelploaf, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 03:31 (six years ago) link
I think I'm more conservative in my opinions about people I know than about people in general.
― DJI, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 03:51 (six years ago) link
I saw “call me by your name” and thought it was movingand that the younger actor delivered an incredible performance BUT i also felt that the relationship was inappropriate given the gap in the characters’ ages/life experience.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:07 (six years ago) link
I understand the kid grew from the experience and that it wasn’t exploitative but still... I think adults should stay away from teenagers.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:24 (six years ago) link
I’m not against the movie for portraying this relationshio the way it did and I am not even condemning the Oliver character. Maybe it’s just more like... watching it... I realized that if I was Elio’s parent I wouldn’t have been chill with this.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:31 (six years ago) link
Although apparently Oliver is only supposed to be 24. He seemed way older in the film to me.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:39 (six years ago) link
suggest a rename to 'aspects of my ignorance i'd rather post about than address'
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 08:47 (six years ago) link
― treeship 2, Tuesday, January 16, 2018
I wouldn't date you either.
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 11:32 (six years ago) link
That's not an uncool conservative belief at any rate, it's something a lot of right-on social justice ppl have brought up to criticize the film with (that and "the book was written by a straight").
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 11:45 (six years ago) link
I've seen the last remark, and it's so absurd that it's beneath contempt.
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 11:46 (six years ago) link
Feel like current pro-sex work rhetoric is rarely about sex work being empowering and much more frequently about the idea that sex worker's labour rights matter more than moral qualms concerning content. Which shoves some things under the bed, sure.
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 11:51 (six years ago) link
― Yelploaf
my particular brand of hippie liberalism holds that everybody is wholly and fully responsible for their individual life choices, but it's in society's best interest to help people even if they don't personally "deserve" it. because, and here's my uncool conservative belief, i think that once you start actually judging people critically that nobody deserves to live.
― Arnold Schoenberg Steals (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:01 (six years ago) link
i don't think that's actually a radical belief of debatable coolness
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:09 (six years ago) link
wait
i don't think it's conservative, i think it's radical
which part is radical? the individualism or the nihilism?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:12 (six years ago) link
i think that once you start actually judging people critically that nobody deserves to live.
"Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping?" -Bob Marley, 1601
― Gunther Gleiben (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:14 (six years ago) link
think that once you start actually judging people critically that nobody deserves to live.
why do you hate novels and short stories?
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:15 (six years ago) link
humans are kind of the most pathetic among the animals in that we know we're going to die. it makes us little whimpery weirdo scaredy cats. we deserve pity at the very least.
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:25 (six years ago) link
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison)
from a social perspective being pro-sex work is radical, but from an economic perspective it seems kind of neoliberal, in that it's got these implicit assumptions about the inherent dignity of wage labour.
uncool conservative belief: i think societies should be more accepting of celibacy as a lifestyle choice
― Arnold Schoenberg Steals (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:38 (six years ago) link
i think 'nobody deserves to live' is radical, or at least radically nonsensical
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:39 (six years ago) link
I think it's coherent to believe and behave as if everybody is wholly and fully responsible for their individual life choices but I don't think it's remotely true.
― hell is auteur people (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:42 (six years ago) link
can it be radically conservative at least?
philosophically i guess i might rephrase it as "nobody has the individual moral right to continue to live". i think this is a conservative argument because it has parallels to the doctrine of fundamental moral depravity preached by many christians, though i don't necessarily frame my belief from a christian perspective.
― Arnold Schoenberg Steals (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:48 (six years ago) link
― hell is auteur people (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, January 17, 2018 6:42 AM (five minutes ago)
it's not, but it makes a good alternative to learned helplessness and i find applying it in my own life helps me focus on those choices i can make rather than the things i don't have a choice in.
― Arnold Schoenberg Steals (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:50 (six years ago) link
i think the difference (or total lack of difference, depending on your point of view) between what it's useful to believe yourself when making decisions and how to treat & judge other people after they've made their decisions/life has happened to them is a key liberal-conservative point of distinction
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:54 (six years ago) link
I can totally see it as a counter to learned helplessness but there has to be a Third Way
― hell is auteur people (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 14:57 (six years ago) link
let me rephrase it like this: if anybody is responsible for what happens to me, it's me, and whether or not something that happens to me is fair or a result of free choice, i have to accept the consequences. if i have a panic attack and i blow up at somebody and i get fired from my job as a result of that, you know, there's no point in spending a lot of time feeling guilty over my actions because it wasn't something i had a whole lot of control over. of course i'm still going to feel guilty because people have emotions but it's not something i go out of my way to feed. at the same time it's important for me to not say "well there's clearly no point in me going out and looking for work because at any time i could have another panic attack and fuck that job up too", even though saying that would be true.
i am more judgmental of myself than i am of other people. i guess that makes me liberal?
― Arnold Schoenberg Steals (rushomancy), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 15:04 (six years ago) link
Nothing special about 1/7000000000th of a global population why bother getting weepy about whether someone deserves to be judged or not
Besides judging ppl in 99.999% of circs has zero effect on the subject it's literally posing to judge and worse posing to get haughty about someone else judging
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 15:07 (six years ago) link
i am responsible for lots of things that happen to other people (sort of, as long as you don't pull at 'responsibility' too hard). i think lots of people do not accept things that happen to them and some of them do so v effectively (cf. all that gumph about how a certain degree of paranoia about outside forces can leave your ego/optimism in tact).
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 15:17 (six years ago) link
seems awfully judgemental to call it haughty deems, if you constituted a more significant proportion of humankind I'd be offended by such posing
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 15:19 (six years ago) link
But luckily, eh
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 15:21 (six years ago) link
pose away in blessed irrelevance, my sweet prince
― ogmor, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 15:23 (six years ago) link
*nods*
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 16:36 (six years ago) link
― treeship 2, Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:07 PM (yesterday
finding such a relationship inappropriate is anything but conservative
I haven't seen the movie, so I can't comment specifically, but my uncool conservative belief is that I think judging individual relationships from this standpoint is inappropriate, and arrogant. I think that disparities in age/income/etc can complicate relationships, and from a zoomed-out, societal perspective they can tell us a lot about unhealthy tendencies and what we value, but I don't believe it is my place to judge an individual relationship unless I know the people personally. I think any two people can love each other
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 17 January 2018 16:56 (six years ago) link
Timothy Chalment did such a good job conveying the vulnerability and uncertainty of adolescence that his character “read” in some ways as younger than 17, which sparked my discomfort, which was really just that, not some kind of edict I passed on the film. I felt uncool and conservative for feeling like that bc the person I saw the film with unreservedly loved it. (I loved it too actually — an amazing cinematic portrayal of desire, vulnerability, coming of age, beautifully shot, etc) but still there was this lingering discomfort about the age thing.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:01 (six years ago) link
most people die of opioid overdoses because due to prohibition they have no idea what's in their drugs and what strength they are. we could as a society easily treat addiction as a public health issue instead of a crime issue, we don't, so lots of people die needlessly.
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:02 (six years ago) link
and addiction isn't a choice
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:05 (six years ago) link
When you live with addicts or love them it’s really hard not to be furious with them though.
― treeship 2, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:06 (six years ago) link
oh yeah i know that haha.
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:06 (six years ago) link
from an economic perspective it seems kind of neoliberal, in that it's got these implicit assumptions about the inherent dignity of wage labour
when people say stuff like that, what kind of labour are they thinking of, as like the alternative to wage labour?
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:22 (six years ago) link
UBI, presumably
― Gunther Gleiben (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:33 (six years ago) link
feudal labour? slave labour?
― hell is auteur people (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:35 (six years ago) link
not defending this thought just guessing
professional labour or domestic labour also not considered in the same way
― hell is auteur people (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:37 (six years ago) link
wiki has something on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_labour
In modern mixed economies such as those of the OECD countries, it is currently the most common form of work arrangement. Although most labour is organised as per this structure, the wage work arrangements of CEOs, professional employees, and professional contract workers are sometimes conflated with class assignments, so that "wage labour" is considered to apply only to unskilled, semi-skilled or manual labour. Various studies have shown that employees generally spend 1.5 to 3 hours a day on non-work related activities.[3]
― infinity (∞), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:42 (six years ago) link
i don't think the idea of the dignity of (wage) labour is a distinctive feature of neoliberalism at all tho
― hell is auteur people (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:46 (six years ago) link
is it the money that's icky? like, would labour exchange be ok in a pure barter economy, where i could tug you off for a loaf of bread or whatever? or is it the presence of a boss and the power dynamic implied? so independent sex workers selling labour is ok but not ones who work for someone else who deals them a cut
― flopson, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:50 (six years ago) link
hand-job is at least two loaves of bread iirc
― Gunther Gleiben (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:52 (six years ago) link
what kind of bread are we talking about
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:53 (six years ago) link
pimpernickel
― infinity (∞), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 21:56 (six years ago) link
Pumpernickel would have worked just fine.
― DJI, Wednesday, 17 January 2018 23:46 (six years ago) link
See flopson’s post
― infinity (∞), Wednesday, 17 January 2018 23:51 (six years ago) link
I did. PUMPpernickel har har...
― DJI, Thursday, 18 January 2018 00:01 (six years ago) link
You get pointsPump vs pimp is a thinker
― infinity (∞), Thursday, 18 January 2018 00:46 (six years ago) link
you hardly knew 'er!
― sarahell, Thursday, 18 January 2018 00:46 (six years ago) link
(Real talk: I almost posted "cumpernickel" but stopped myself. Unnecessarily, as it turns out. Y'all went there.)
― Gunther Gleiben (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 18 January 2018 00:58 (six years ago) link
Spunkernipple
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 January 2018 00:59 (six years ago) link
LADS
― Gunther Gleiben (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 18 January 2018 01:00 (six years ago) link
I very often don't reveal my conservative beliefs here mainly because they're p cool imo
― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 January 2018 01:02 (six years ago) link
-teens are bad-justin trudeau is pretty good
― flopson, Sunday, 25 February 2018 22:29 (six years ago) link
I would say both are good, but bad
― k3vin k., Sunday, 25 February 2018 22:43 (six years ago) link
ie overall their usefulness to our worldview is positive despite the occasional and high profile drawbacks
― k3vin k., Sunday, 25 February 2018 22:45 (six years ago) link
trudeau should visit that japanese suicide forest wearing ritual seppuku attire next
― sleepingbag, Monday, 26 February 2018 04:06 (six years ago) link
-teens are bad
disagree!
the kids are alright
― the late great, Monday, 26 February 2018 04:44 (six years ago) link
I also disagree
teens are, in fact, the worst
but they keep being just a little better than the last set of teens, and/or that is an important story we have to tell ourselves to imagine any hope for our species
― El Tomboto, Monday, 26 February 2018 04:48 (six years ago) link
I thought "Trudeau is good" was just a liberal as opposed to left view, not a conservative view.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 26 February 2018 05:30 (six years ago) link
Two sides of the same coin (a loony)
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Monday, 26 February 2018 05:39 (six years ago) link
bc liberal party (i think flopson is referring to bc libs specifically) have quite a few former conservatives, so they're a coalition of sorts
http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/b-c-liberals-hire-12-ousted-federal-and-alberta-conservatives-which-could-give-province-a-harper-tone
they're technically centre -- to the right of ndp and left of conservatives
― bald butte (∞), Monday, 26 February 2018 06:33 (six years ago) link
lib is the new conservative
― flopson, Monday, 26 February 2018 06:38 (six years ago) link
― flopson, Sunday, February 25, 2018 10:38 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's true!
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Monday, 26 February 2018 17:35 (six years ago) link
https://cdni.rt.com/files/2018.02/article/5a8ed9e0dda4c8045a8b457b.jpg
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 26 February 2018 18:10 (six years ago) link
love that image, going to sending it to friends for the next 6 months at least
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Monday, 26 February 2018 18:19 (six years ago) link
well you and the rest of the world according to ctv last night
― bald butte (∞), Monday, 26 February 2018 18:38 (six years ago) link
Is he up for reelection at some point? Because if he were an American candidate, he'd lose the next election based on that picture alone.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 26 February 2018 21:40 (six years ago) link
Unrelated, I've started to develop some conservative-ish views of the effects of the sexual revolution. Basically I think birth control and delayed (or deliberately avoided altogether) reproduction has contributed to society becoming more sexualized and more obsessed with sex, porn, kink, etc. I think our bodies/hormones are still telling us to impregnate and to be impregnated and the fact that it's not happening as much as it "should" is confusing us and causing stronger sexual impulses to kick in. I guess what makes me not a true conservative on this is that it's just a theory for me and not something I think we should enact any changes based on. Overall I think the positives of the sexual revolution vastly outweigh this.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 26 February 2018 21:43 (six years ago) link
oct 2019
he was already very unpopular before this incident
― bald butte (∞), Monday, 26 February 2018 21:48 (six years ago) link
but he is likely going to win
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Monday, 26 February 2018 21:50 (six years ago) link
i am wasteful with paper towels. i often use them instead of cloth napkins and rags. i think maybe it doesn't matter.
― marcos, Thursday, 1 March 2018 20:52 (six years ago) link
(i know it matters overall, not everyone should be wasteful with paper towels, but does it matter if i, me, individually use them maaaan?
― marcos, Thursday, 1 March 2018 20:53 (six years ago) link
I despise select a size and will select more than one sheet even when one will suffice.
― Jeff, Thursday, 1 March 2018 21:02 (six years ago) link
I will admit I'm a bad green liberal but not because I believe it's ok, but because it's just a failing of mine
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Thursday, 1 March 2018 21:08 (six years ago) link
yeah individual-consumption scolding is a bad joke at this stage, and always was a kind of trick
― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 1 March 2018 21:35 (six years ago) link
(as sanpaku was posting yesterday tho it'll be a realer thing later)
― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 1 March 2018 21:36 (six years ago) link
As scientific understanding has grown, so our world has become dehumanized. Man feels himself isolated in the cosmos, because he is no longer involved in nature and has lost his emotional "unconscious identity" with natural phenomena. These have slowly lost their symbolic implications. Thunder is no longer the voice of an angry god, nor is lightning his avenging missile. No river contains a spirit, no tree is the life principle of a man, no snake the embodiment of wisdom, no mountain cave the home of a great demon. No voices now speak to a man from stones, plants, and animals, nor does he speak to them believing they can hear. His contact with nature has gone, and with it has gone the profound emotional energy that this symbolic connection supplied.
― marcos, Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:30 (six years ago) link
I sort of believe that, but I think our sense of isolation grows more out of capitalist alienation than out of science per se.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:34 (six years ago) link
would argue the two go hand in hand
― NBA YoungBoy named Rocky Raccoon (m bison), Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:38 (six years ago) link
There's this thing called communism
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:42 (six years ago) link
go on
― NBA YoungBoy named Rocky Raccoon (m bison), Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:46 (six years ago) link
I don't see how communism can reconnect humans with nature.
― had (crüt), Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:50 (six years ago) link
I'm not that familiar with Jung, but I wouldn't have thought he'd be considered uncool and conservative (despite recent Jordan Peterson associations).
― rob, Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:55 (six years ago) link
― had (crüt), Thursday, March 15, 2018 3:50 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
five year plan to sit under a tree maaaaaan
― NBA YoungBoy named Rocky Raccoon (m bison), Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:58 (six years ago) link
dig it
― marcos, Thursday, 15 March 2018 21:00 (six years ago) link
― rob, Thursday, 15 March 2018 20:55 (six minutes ago)
Aryan mystical woo racism is kind of conservative
― glumdalclitch, Thursday, 15 March 2018 21:03 (six years ago) link
It made the Zhivagos move to a farm, iirc
― I leprecan't even. (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 15 March 2018 21:14 (six years ago) link
xpyeah I could be way wrong on this, but I would have thought the "mystical woo" aspects would make him unappealing to conservatives, but I guess it depends on how narrowly you want to define "conservative." I mean, marcos's quote is basically an argument in favor of paganism.
― rob, Thursday, 15 March 2018 21:22 (six years ago) link
Appealing to fascists then, how's that?
― Buff Jeckley (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 March 2018 21:42 (six years ago) link
identity politics is fucking exhausting
― marcos, Saturday, 24 March 2018 17:32 (six years ago) link
Go on
― Evan, Saturday, 24 March 2018 17:56 (six years ago) link
ya, sucking cock is exhausting
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 March 2018 18:33 (six years ago) link
apt
― valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, 24 March 2018 18:39 (six years ago) link
The phrase “toxic masculinity” is badly conceived and the fact that it sounds like it means masculinity is toxic makes it counterproductive. The fact that you have to explain it every time you use it makes it worthless
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Saturday, 24 March 2018 18:54 (six years ago) link
The things that are bad about “toxic masculinity” are just the things that are bad about masculinity, the extra adjective essentially signifies “#notallmen”
― valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, 24 March 2018 19:00 (six years ago) link
iirc a non-negligable number of ppl who use the idiom believe that all "masculinity" is toxic
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 March 2018 19:20 (six years ago) link
you said iirc when you meant ime
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 March 2018 19:21 (six years ago) link
If you have to explain what 'toxic masculinity' means every time you use it, it seems to me you only speak to some kinds of people.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 24 March 2018 20:30 (six years ago) link
Fortunately for me and my people it never comes up in conversation
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:02 (six years ago) link
It's too bad you don't like it but it is a thing. If you need it explained to you over and over again... it might even your own damn fault?
― brimstead, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:03 (six years ago) link
I'm grateful for all the "as the adult in the room,..." reveals itt
― brimstead, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:05 (six years ago) link
this isn't the gratitude room bro
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:10 (six years ago) link
This is the uncool room stop tryna be cool
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:27 (six years ago) link
It's too bad you don't like it but it is a thing
is it 'toxic femininity' when some psycho mommy drowns her kids in a tub?
― sleepingbag, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:49 (six years ago) link
is it 'toxic transpersonery' when a trans person does something shitty/aggressive/criminal?
― sleepingbag, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:52 (six years ago) link
toxic ilxery
― the late great, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:54 (six years ago) link
'toxic masculinity' without any other analogous terms for other genders implies that it's disproportionately men, or maybe only men, who have it within their nature to do horrible, violent things. which could be true! but doesn't it then open the door to talk about other groups of people who are disproportionately likely to commit atrocities? isn't that the kind of conversation y'all generally want to no-platform?
― sleepingbag, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:58 (six years ago) link
I think the bigger hurdle/thing you have to explain every time here isn't separating between toxic and non-toxic masculinity, it's keeping in mind that masculinity doesn't = men and everything they do.
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:59 (six years ago) link
sleepingbag is a more assertive roger adultery who knew
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:01 (six years ago) link
I think the thing is that a lot of people probably need toxic masculinity explained to them because they don't know what it means, not everyone is plugged into woke twitter. I also think it's probably best to lead by gentle example w/most people, I don't believe people getting aggressively confronted or called out for stepping wrong works as well as others believe. I know getting aggressively confronted from right wing types has never made me go "hmmm...maybe they're correct." I don't dispute that emotions run high on subjects and I don't think people are necessarily wrong to feel argumentative at points. I don't know whether or not this is a conservative belief but maybe since I guess it could be argued that debating more diplomatically slows down social progress. Maybe? Idk.
― omar little, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:01 (six years ago) link
I'll defer to sleepingbag's expertise on the subject
― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:02 (six years ago) link
True story, I once came home from Roskilde Festival with a weird rash, and it turned out to be because my sleepingbag was toxic.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:02 (six years ago) link
I am not a huge fan of callout culture but there are many times when it is necessary
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:03 (six years ago) link
I needed it in my early 20s tho
i don't think it worked
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:05 (six years ago) link
It's been known that he's that for a while but folks will engage nonetheless. xposts
Omar, I think that if pushed most will agree that diplomatic debate is important, it's just a lot of ppl are sick of being the ones that have to do it. You need ppl on your side for social progress, there are exceptions but mostly that's what it boils down to.
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:06 (six years ago) link
Ok Mordy w/e
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:07 (six years ago) link
sorry but we're gonna have to call you out a whole bunch more if we're going to get you in shape
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:08 (six years ago) link
That's never gonna happen.
I'm an unfixable mess
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:08 (six years ago) link
No, it's
https://i.imgur.com/yRhkuFO.gif
― pplains, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:10 (six years ago) link
― sleepingbag, Saturday, March 24, 2018 6:58 PM (twelve minutes ago)
hm, so which one would you like to discuss first
― k3vin k., Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:13 (six years ago) link
educate me baby
― sleepingbag, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:15 (six years ago) link
it's true that men on average have higher rates of violence than women. it's also true that the variances between individuals in a particular gender are much wider than when compared in aggregate.
― Mordy, Saturday, 24 March 2018 23:17 (six years ago) link
Oh is that a fact
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 25 March 2018 00:35 (six years ago) link
it’s obv true the question is if it’s material
― Mordy, Sunday, 25 March 2018 00:44 (six years ago) link
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, March 24, 2018 10:59 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Surely masculinity kind of does mean 'men and everything they do' though? As an individual man there's nothing you do and nothing you are that is somehow outside of masculinity? Like how when ppl arguing about stuff on the internet say "ok, but leaving gender/race/class aside for a moment...", and it makes no sense because there's nothing 'beyond' those things.
If I'm reading you right you're saying that a man hearing the term 'toxic masculinity' will likely understand it as an indictment of everything they are and could ever be, and reject it on that basis, so there's a need to explain that an indictment of masculinity is not necessarily an indictment of them as an individual - but it is an indictment of them as an individual! Once you subtract 'masculinity' from them as a person, there's literally nothing left
― soref, Sunday, 25 March 2018 07:51 (six years ago) link
um, no. just no.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 25 March 2018 08:28 (six years ago) link
Right, so if I say this milk is toxic then I'm disparaging all milk? This is not how adjectives work.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 25 March 2018 08:38 (six years ago) link
some people use the term 'toxic masculinity' in a way that doesn't preclude the existence of non-toxic masculinity, but I thought from what Daniel said he was basically taking the same angle as sibly earlier:
― valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, March 24, 2018 7:00 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
or like Mordy said 'a non-negligable number of ppl who use the idiom believe that all "masculinity" is toxic'
― soref, Sunday, 25 March 2018 08:47 (six years ago) link
That's not what's wrong aboyt what you're saying.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 25 March 2018 08:56 (six years ago) link
what's your take on why I'm wrong
― soref, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:03 (six years ago) link
not everyone is plugged into woke twitter
Praise be.
― Buff Jeckley (Tom D.), Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:07 (six years ago) link
xp I don't mean that to sound passive aggressive, I mean it's very likely that I am wrong! would just like to know where you're coming from
― soref, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:09 (six years ago) link
'Masculinity' is not the whole of my identity, it's a social construct. And a harmful one at that.
That's not to say that 'masculinity' is a randomly created term. Ironically, most of my feminist work, consisting of pretty militant anti-MRA articles, would probably be said to be typically male and testostorone prone - and has been called out as that by women. But I also know part of why my writing has been somewhat impactful has a lot to do with me being male, and being allowed to write angry things without being described as 'hysterical' for instance. And that's why I'm okay with 'masculinity' being described as toxic, even though I'm quite 'masculine' myself.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:11 (six years ago) link
can't it be both a social construct and also the whole of your identity simultaneously? is there any part of your existence that isn't shaped by this social construct?
― soref, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:15 (six years ago) link
don't mind me, just passing by and fucking off again
- i'm not sure anybody is just one aspect of their identity all the time, and i think all aspects of identity are to some extent situational and performative. so it ought to be possible in theory to question those aspects of ourselves and critique them and to at least wonder whether we could do them differently. fwiw i think these are also the assumptions of people who think masculinity has positives that should be emphasized or developed.
― bad left terf nut (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:20 (six years ago) link
And that's why I'm okay with 'masculinity' being described as toxic, even though I'm quite 'masculine' myself.
Are you though? Or is that you’re Tuomas two? A weird bald Scandinavian looking for love and cred in all the wrong places?
― lion in winter, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:25 (six years ago) link
I think you're mixing up masculinity and maleness there? I can't escape my maleness, no matter how I behave - it's a position of privilege within the current system. But "masculinity" doesn't just refer to the position of being a cis male - it's a code of conduct, a set of expectations of what males should be like and behave like. And yeah of course I can do tons of stuff that falls outside those parameters! Much as non-males can engage in masculine behaviour.
The idea of a non-toxic masculinity, when I've encountered it, tends to be equally prescriptive - finding examples of "good men" and asking ppl to emulate them. Which I guess is fine, it's probably a step a lot of ppl need at this point. But it's also alienating to me, because it does presuppose a kind of gender essentialism, that men need other men to look to for how to behave.
― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:34 (six years ago) link
http://m.quickmeme.com/img/08/083d6c2582aa4e971e99e4a959afe4a1c6b965a569d965c7288946290245ffee.jpg
― Frederik B, Sunday, 25 March 2018 09:35 (six years ago) link
Soref, you are badly missing the plot. Sorry to have to explain it again, but toxic masculinity = "bro culture." It's fine to be a man and it's even fine to be a cis, straight man and do manly things. However, there are certain things commonly mistaken for "masculine" traits that seem to be applauded or encouraged among a subset of people that serve to distinguish a "real man." The idea that real men must be dominant, cold, and selfish 100% of the time is toxic. It's not okay to commit or condone sexual assault or rape, to engage in violence over any perceived slight, or to question or police another's manliness or sexual orientation because they did something differently to how you would have done it. It's that sense of hostility and overblown machismo that is now defined as "toxic masculinity." Remove those things and you're left with regular masculinity. And if you want that to be the whole of your identity, that's fine, but I think you'd be limiting yourself somewhat.
― sueñx latinx (naus), Sunday, 25 March 2018 10:26 (six years ago) link
separate topic, I think this guy is actually a 33-year-old democratic party consultant posing as a high school student
https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2018/03/24/Photos/ZH/MW-GG195_hogg_2_20180324134838_ZH.jpg?uuid=94f95c8e-2f8b-11e8-b712-ac162d7bc1f7
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Sunday, 25 March 2018 13:19 (six years ago) link
it's even fine to be a cis, straight man and do manly things.
gee thanks!
― sleepingbag, Sunday, 25 March 2018 13:49 (six years ago) link
Can everyone please issue statements to sleepingbag that they aren't personally dictating what he can and can't do in order to avoid any further misunderstandings?
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 25 March 2018 14:07 (six years ago) link
I’m not making any extra effort for sleepingbag
― valorous wokelord (silby), Sunday, 25 March 2018 14:13 (six years ago) link
Fair enough, he would probably find something else to deliberately misunderstand anyway.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 25 March 2018 14:16 (six years ago) link
sorry guys you're right, this is the first time i've ever encountered a progressive condescendingly licensing proper ideas + behavior as if they were in a position to do so and it took me by complete surprise
― sleepingbag, Sunday, 25 March 2018 15:06 (six years ago) link
deliberately
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 25 March 2018 15:42 (six years ago) link
(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
― sleepingbag, Sunday, 25 March 2018 15:48 (six years ago) link
Try a little harder
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Sunday, 25 March 2018 16:10 (six years ago) link
███████████████████████████████───────▀█▄▀▄▀████▀──▀█▄▀▄▀████▀──────────▀█▄█▄█▀──────▀█▄█▄█▀────
.▄▄█████████████████████████████─▀▀▀───▀█▄▀▄▀████▀──▀█▄▀▄▀████▀──────────▀█▄█▄█▀──────▀█▄█▄█▀────
.██████████████████████████─██▄▀▄▀█████──██▄▀▄▀█████───▀██▄█▄██▀────▀██▄█▄██▀──
― sleepingbag, Sunday, 25 March 2018 16:58 (six years ago) link
step 2 me I'll roll u up sleepingbagthen take u camping and forget u at the campsite and never call to see if u turned up
― The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 25 March 2018 17:37 (six years ago) link
Lol
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Sunday, 25 March 2018 17:58 (six years ago) link
part of why my writing has been somewhat impactful has a lot to do with me being male, and being allowed to write angry things without being described as 'hysterical' for instance. And that's why I'm okay with 'masculinity' being described as toxic
this is interesting -- the "toxic" adjective is in a sense corrective: if women are going to take the same tack and be labeled "hysterical" (or some equivalent), it's only fair (it follows) that men should be policed similarly
― k3vin k., Sunday, 25 March 2018 18:08 (six years ago) link
toxic use of ‘impactful’
― mookieproof, Sunday, 25 March 2018 18:12 (six years ago) link
hmmm idk, that's a trap that a lot of leftists/progressives/whatevers fall into i think, following privilege rhetoric to the conclusion that everyone's lives should be shittier instead of raised up to the same standard of how we currently treat straight white males.
― oiocha, Tuesday, 27 March 2018 15:07 (six years ago) link
also "let's call them all terrorists" instead of "maybe they all need mental health help"
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 27 March 2018 15:42 (six years ago) link
this stuff is always on my mind but i can't say i have anything constructive to add about it any more (i used to think so). i kind of let my feelings guide my actions and try not to get too involved in making pronouncements on myself or others. if someone is being pretty obviously misogynist, i try to 'close the tab' so to speak or remove myself from the situation because it just makes me angry. also if someone seems too invested in 'being masculine' (mentions it in their grindr bio for instance), that's a turn-off. caring enough about being in some kind of role to name it says you're too neurotic about it for me and not interested in real sun energy (exploring all the roles). i am kind of fascinated whenever i see people performing masculinity: how natural does it seem, where are the cracks, when does the tension of doing it erupt into a bit of self-consciousness and what do the escape valves look like (humor? humiliation?)
― map, Tuesday, 27 March 2018 18:04 (six years ago) link
lately i feel like an aspect of 'masculinity' people are needing / desiring is rootedness, which absolutely shouldn't be gendered and maybe that's part of the problem. like thinking about the texas bomber, how derelict does your soil have to be in order to do something like that.
― map, Tuesday, 27 March 2018 18:09 (six years ago) link
I won't defend Samantha Bee for her comment, knowing the WHAT ABOUT debate it would inevitably have kicked off.
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 1 June 2018 20:09 (five years ago) link
^^^
― mookieproof, Friday, 1 June 2018 20:11 (five years ago) link
shudder to think what the world would be like without samantha bee's important voice
― k3vin k., Friday, 1 June 2018 20:39 (five years ago) link
ok bad post, I'm sure people like her
― k3vin k., Friday, 1 June 2018 20:46 (five years ago) link
I don't really care what she called Ivanka but she and Oliver strike me as standard bearers of tepid liberal "resistance." And Oliver looks radical next to her.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Friday, 1 June 2018 21:06 (five years ago) link
yeah i bet she hasn't even broken any bank windows
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Saturday, 2 June 2018 00:34 (five years ago) link
Iirc she mocked people who go to protests for “not voting” and her evidence of this was low turnout in an effectively uncontested Los Angeles mayoral race. Even the women’s march was too radical for her.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Saturday, 2 June 2018 17:02 (five years ago) link
are you being full of shit on purpose
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 2 June 2018 17:06 (five years ago) link
or is your "iirc" just malfunctioning
her beliefs don't align 100% with mine (she has had trouble letting go of the hillary clinton train or admitting that her candidate/campaign has severe flaws) but in general she highlights really important issues and is funny and gives a voice to people who normally don't get to address millions of people on tv. so i'm willing to forgive her for not being perfect
― obviously DLC (Karl Malone), Saturday, 2 June 2018 17:08 (five years ago) link
xposts
shes funny
END OF M8
― laurel or hardyhearin (darraghmac), Saturday, 2 June 2018 17:21 (five years ago) link
lip and cheek piercings are unpleasant to look at and make me worry about people who have them
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 00:50 (five years ago) link
agree
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:34 (five years ago) link
What are you worried about?
― womp womp that sucker (Tom D.), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:42 (five years ago) link
You shouldn't have to serve anyone at a restaurant that you don't want to.
― Joe Gargan (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:44 (five years ago) link
hmm
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:58 (five years ago) link
maybe if you could serve them in another room or something
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 16:59 (five years ago) link
a distinct but altogether equivalent room, for the people you might not otherwise want to serve
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:00 (five years ago) link
other than the person being rejected being too inebriated/naked the only stories I've ever heard of refusing to serve someone at a restaurant have been white people refusing service to people of colour in rural areas
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:00 (five years ago) link
how naked is "too naked"
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
"no shirt/no shoes = no service" seems pretty common
― ( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
sorry m8 youve taken off more garments thans good for you m8
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:01 (five years ago) link
has sir maybe been stripping elsewhere tonight before sir arrived here hmmm?
― under a mand'rin tsar (darraghmac), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:02 (five years ago) link
lmao
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 17:03 (five years ago) link
i refused to serve somebody the other day because he's the guy who invariably leaves a huge dump in the toilet and then hangs around outside keeping an eye on the bathroom door waiting for reactions. cut him a fuckofalot more slack than i woulda cut sarah huckabee sanders i assure you.
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:18 (five years ago) link
― Joe Gargan (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:33 (five years ago) link
What about a labret?
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SardonicRadiantKusimanse-max-1mb.gif
― how's life, Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:46 (five years ago) link
Least worrisome of this category but still a little worrisome.
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 18:59 (five years ago) link
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, June 26, 2018 1:18 PM (fifty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
My uncool conservative belief is that this person should be caged like an ape.
― A Frankenstein + A Dracula + A Mummy That's Been Werewolfed (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 26 June 2018 19:16 (five years ago) link
Actually, that's unfair. I don't believe apes should be caged. Just that guy.
This isn't really a "belief" so much as an unresolved question or doubt, but I'm not sure whether the left has a coherent take on immigration. I don't really think open borders are feasible (I guess that part is a belief), and short of that I don't understand what the left "ask" or goal is on immigration beyond just opposing abhorrent policies like family separation.
Also, I find arguments like "no one is illegal on stolen land" to be evasive and disingenuous. That argument only has weight in the abstract. In reality no one seems to be interested in reintegrating california and texas into mexico or in ceding the United States to native american tribes to what does that actually mean?
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:32 (five years ago) link
I'm not sure whether anyone has a coherent take on immigration
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:36 (five years ago) link
I get what you're saying, man alive.
Of course you will find open borders enthusiasts here (and elsewhere on the left). But it's not like the only rhetorical spaces are "turmpian evil" and "open borders":
- expanded legal immigration- more permissive asylum policy- more temporary worker programs- in the meantime, no detention of asylum seekers- for fuck's sake, reunite the people separated so far
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:41 (five years ago) link
We also need a sane way to deal with the millions of people who are already living and working here, keeping our economy afloat with their underpaid labor.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:44 (five years ago) link
oh yeah and
- speedier resolution of asylum claims- expedited processes for families traveling together- support, not demonization, of unaccompanied minors- speedy path to citizenship for undocumented persons without criminal records
That's a bunch of things that aren't open borders or even -gasp- amnesty.
xp also Moodles otm
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:46 (five years ago) link
those all sound good
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:52 (five years ago) link
we should also do amnesty tho
― 21st savagery fox (m bison), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 16:55 (five years ago) link
Also by “open borders” most non-anarchists like myself probably mean something like “legal permanent residence on arrival for anyone who asks who isn’t a violent criminal, also amnesty”
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 17:14 (five years ago) link
Not like landfall citizenship.
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 17:15 (five years ago) link
what if that means 100 million new arrivals?
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:33 (five years ago) link
ppl say they want speedier resolution of asylum claims ime they say they want speedy approval of asylum claims
s'like death penalty appeals so tis
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:40 (five years ago) link
ime what they want is, obv
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:41 (five years ago) link
100 million more ppl sounds fine, who cares, we have lots of cities that need upzoning
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:41 (five years ago) link
oh im ok with it personally but just saying
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:42 (five years ago) link
God imagine you'm living peacefully in North America and then suddenly all these foreigners turn up uninvited
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:44 (five years ago) link
Multiculturalism gone mad... in the 17th century.
― Alan Alba (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:46 (five years ago) link
thrilling point lads
― the last famous poster you were surprised to discover was actually (darraghmac), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:50 (five years ago) link
No point at all, just thinking how terrible it would be
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:52 (five years ago) link
I mean i know we've got colonialism sorted, thx
― Meunier tear has to fall (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 18:53 (five years ago) link
The history of colonialism offers a rich vein of things to talk & think about. It's a perennial cartoon: Native Americans stand on the shore seeing ships fulla pilgrims or whatever and saying "if we refuse to educate their children, maybe they'll leave" etc.
But overstressing the precedent has rhetorical risks. Some right-wing choad who thinks he's clever is eventually going to say "yeah and look how that turned out - genocide and displacement, just what we want to avoid."
It remains (perhaps depressingly) the case that many/most current immigrants are arriving not to conquer and enslave but to clean toilets, pick crops, mow lawns....
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link
Darragh, point taken. That said, if one holds my point #2 (vastly more permissive asylum policy) together with #6 (speedier adjudication) I would hope you get the same thing: speedier approval, right?
― this ukulele annoys fascists (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link
the tension man alive points out is prob a real thing, even our boy denmark is super creepy about migrants. i favour open borders idealistically on both utilitarian and ethical grounds but in practice the real constraint on immigration is the political backlash it creates in the host country
When Rokhaia Naassan gives birth in the coming days, she and her baby boy will enter a new category in the eyes of Danish law. Because she lives in a low-income immigrant neighborhood described by the government as a “ghetto,” Rokhaia will be what the Danish newspapers call a “ghetto parent” and he will be a “ghetto child.”Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
― flopson, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:22 (five years ago) link
wild
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 19:24 (five years ago) link
you need spaces for people in housing, transit, schools, you need social services, you need businesses to serve them, there actually are logical reasons for controlling at a minimum the pace of immigration
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 20:17 (five years ago) link
wouldn't it be more humane to provide transportation for everyone to whatever country they want to go to, instead of treating as exception those who suffer through horrifying trips to get to the places they want to go to? that would entail giving everyone all over the world the choice of where to live, paid for by the countries they want to go to.
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 20:59 (five years ago) link
yes but y'know I worry we're making this the cool fully automated luxury gay space communism thread and not the uncool conservative opinions thread now
― devops mom (silby), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:00 (five years ago) link
meant my post as more a rabbit–duck illusion kinda thing tbh
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:03 (five years ago) link
Okay so where is the cool fully automated gay space communism thread? Is it a 77 thing?
― derp (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:24 (five years ago) link
you need spaces for people in housing, transit, schools, you need social services, you need businesses to serve them
these are arguments for controlling the birth rate
population is growing much slower in say the UK now than it was in the C19th
― ogmor, Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:25 (five years ago) link
You're right about there needing to be infrastructure etc., but it's worth noting that there's plenty of room.
http://ecpmlangues.u-strasbg.fr/civilization/geography/maps/US%20Population%20density,%202010%20570x361.png
I think an advocate of dramatically increased legal immigration could say that the housing, transit, schools, social services are a little bit of a "if you build it, they will come" situation, as well as chicken/egg. I mean, in 1887 none of those things existed in Oklahoma. Didn't take long.
Also: Making housing, transit, schools, and social services happen? Sounds like, um, I dunno, JOBS. Which I thought conservatives liked.
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:37 (five years ago) link
The following facts remain stubbornly adjacent:
- The places with the most room are the most conservative and least receptive to immigrants.- New arrivals are much more comfortable going to the most populous places (with good reason!).- That said, having new immigrants transform (dare I say, settle?) a rural region - making it more populous, dynamic, and diverse - would be great for them both if it were welcomed bilaterally.
I don't have good answers for those questions - or, at least, not suited to this thread.
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 3 July 2018 21:47 (five years ago) link
Popular methods at modernizing gender in language are an inconsistent mess aiming in all directions at once and only monolinguals think that there are no reasons to criticize those methods except deliberately wanting to exclude people.
― Three Word Username, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 08:20 (five years ago) link
a lot of what's framed as the "refugee problem" or the "immigrant problem" is actually a xenophobia problem - this is most apparent in america but it's true everywhere and i'm amused at people who think countries should "moderate" their immigration policies to placate xenophobes, as if such a thing were possible. that's not to say there aren't serious legitimate problems that come with mass numbers of displaced persons, but those numbers, particularly as the effects of climate change take hold, are going to increase rather than decrease. people need to make their peace with mass societal disruption, with mass death, or, more likely, with both.
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 12:16 (five years ago) link
Is that really a conservative belief?
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 12:52 (five years ago) link
i thought we decided this was the luxury gay space communism thread
conservatives don't have "beliefs", only prejudices
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 13:03 (five years ago) link
"conservatives don't have "beliefs", only prejudices"
I think this is a fascist belief, but I don't know if it's conservative or liberal
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 13:54 (five years ago) link
It's a fact
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 14:00 (five years ago) link
of all the reductive dichotomies we can sort the world into, "people who worry for the souls of their enemies" and "people who don't" is one of them
― Neymar, Mr Nice Guy (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 14:15 (five years ago) link
Never wear a belt with a waistcoat, ffs
― Et Dieu crea l' (Michael White), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 14:41 (five years ago) link
― droit au butt (Euler)
yeah i know i'm ignoring all of the Principled Conservatives who have columns in the New York Times
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 19:24 (five years ago) link
no I mean it's fascist to think that people (conservative or whoever) only have prejudices, not beliefs, because that means you think they act without beliefs, without reason, and that's how fascists think about people: action before belief
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 19:46 (five years ago) link
i don't know what conservatives (or anyone else) "have". i just know what they do.
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 20:00 (five years ago) link
I don’t think people’s beliefs, as they would articulate them, usually enter in to the causal history of the actions they take. Dunno how that is fascist.
― devops mom (silby), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 20:11 (five years ago) link
didn’t see/say anything about causal historiesbut if you think action comes before thought... you might be a fascist
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 21:03 (five years ago) link
i think it's important to check yrself, esp in times (and threads) like these, so let's see. do i think democracy is a wicked and perverse institution? i do not. am i convinced that the problems in my life and my peers' lives have been inflicted upon me by an elite conspiracy designed to invert the rightful hierarchy i am also convinced my peers and i ought to be on permanent top of? nope. is my response to the notion of serious downward redistribution of wealth and power to use any means necessary to prevent it, including violence, including if some of that wealth and power is likely to be redistributed to me, because it would also be distributed to people i hate and fear? not rly. have i plotted, or had plotted for me, an elaborate story that explains the stresses and democratic instability that come from inequality as instead coming from a racialized moral impurity that infects huge swathes of the lower classes, is cooked up by treasonous snakes in the upper classes, and can only be purged by mass violence? nah. do i think history is nothing but zero-sum struggle between implacably opposed nations and tribes and that anyone who tells you any different should be killed? can't say that i do. is my idea of a beautiful public event one that is full of spectacular and intimidating demonstrations of mass solidarity, rage, and violent potency, but also tightly scripted down to the second by unquestioned authorities? def not. do i look good in black? no better than the next husky guy. do i suspect that much of what people think of as their moral principles are actually post-facto rationalizations for actions they take instinctively, explaining why so many people's principles are so conspicuously incoherent? yeah i kinda do-- ah fuck! just when i was doing so well.
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 21:38 (five years ago) link
it's true that fascism is hard to define, and so we tend to identify it with the way things went in Italy and Germany. but I'll be that guy who says you can't define communism by what happened in the USSR and China too. & as I understand fascism (from Gentile and Mussolini for instance), it's a doctrine of action & feeling over thought, a romanticism. this kind of doctrine is appealing to brutes and so the "action" realized is violence against "others", but that doesn't mean it's "what's most key" about what fascism is. as in: any state that values action & feeling over thought is going to end up doing the kinds of things you listed...because those feelings are powerful (and states that want to avoid those things should work against putting action and feeling over thought). (that is my conservative thought)
― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 21:49 (five years ago) link
ha, see, relevantly, i would probably say the generic philosophical principles of fascism postdate and metaphysically justify the actions of a state or party or person that is responding to the pressures i describe in the manner i describe.
will grant that like, if you've personally become rly disillusioned w the concept of rationality, or if you're rly tired of feeling obligated to critically evaluate any of your feelings, you may respond to the blind and muscular righteousness of an existing fascist appeal even if you weren't previously too worried about jews replacing you. but it's worth asking at whose hands exactly it seems to you that you are inflicted with these obligations-- who it is exactly you feel expects you to care about what, and why exactly you'd prefer not to. imo there are likely to be clear material answers to these questions.
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 22:35 (five years ago) link
dlh doing good work here
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 23:24 (five years ago) link
good talk imo
― difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 4 July 2018 23:24 (five years ago) link
so you're interpreting my statement as implying something like that we humans are mindless beasts driven by animal unreason? that does sound fairly fascist - and like most fascist beliefs it's completely false. Prejudice and hatred aren't something we're born with, they're something we learn. thinking in a strictly logical sense is something difficult and taxing for all humans. in that conservative mind attachment to one's paralogical thought processes becomes pathological and one becomes incapable of logically evaluating certain things, most notably the value and efficacy of those paralogical processes themselves. so it's utterly useless to try and reason with them, because they outright reject reason in certain specific domains.
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Wednesday, 4 July 2018 23:27 (five years ago) link
think it's important to check yrself, esp in times (and threads) like these, so let's see. do i think democracy is a wicked and perverse institution? i do not. am i convinced that the problems in my life and my peers' lives have been inflicted upon me by an elite conspiracy designed to invert the rightful hierarchy i am also convinced my peers and i ought to be on permanent top of? nope. is my response to the notion of serious downward redistribution of wealth and power to use any means necessary to prevent it, including violence, including if some of that wealth and power is likely to be redistributed to me, because it would also be distributed to people i hate and fear? not rly. have i plotted, or had plotted for me, an elaborate story that explains the stresses and democratic instability that come from inequality as instead coming from a racialized moral impurity that infects huge swathes of the lower classes, is cooked up by treasonous snakes in the upper classes, and can only be purged by mass violence? nah. do i think history is nothing but zero-sum struggle between implacably opposed nations and tribes and that anyone who tells you any different should be killed? can't say that i do. is my idea of a beautiful public event one that is full of spectacular and intimidating demonstrations of mass solidarity, rage, and violent potency, but also tightly scripted down to the second by unquestioned authorities? def not. do i look good in black? no better than the next husky guy. do i suspect that much of what people think of as their moral principles are actually post-facto rationalizations for actions they take instinctively, explaining why so many people's principles are so conspicuously incoherent? yeah i kinda do-- ah fuck! just when i was doing so well.
― difficult listening hour
but do you like the PSB's "Do I Have To"?
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 July 2018 00:32 (five years ago) link
and what to do about october?
― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 5 July 2018 00:56 (five years ago) link
it's so bemusing
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 5 July 2018 01:32 (five years ago) link
but it's worth asking at whose hands exactly it seems to you that you are inflicted with these obligations-- who it is exactly you feel expects you to care about what, and why exactly you'd prefer not to. imo there are likely to be clear material answers to these questions.
― droit au butt (Euler), Thursday, 5 July 2018 11:22 (five years ago) link
this is a v bertrand russell line yr taking here
― ogmor, Thursday, 5 July 2018 11:27 (five years ago) link
I think free will as most conceive it today is bullshit nonsense but I also think being not-a-fascist is pretty easy living and you only need a mild helping of information to pull it off. Sorry wrong thread
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 5 July 2018 11:43 (five years ago) link
Wall to wall carpet is kind of a nice change sometimes.
― Yerac, Thursday, 5 July 2018 12:56 (five years ago) link
euler on-topic, framing every argument in terms of the philosophical debates of 200 years ago is v. uncool conservative belief
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Thursday, 5 July 2018 14:06 (five years ago) link
yeah respect
― flopson, Thursday, 5 July 2018 14:55 (five years ago) link
ha ha well that is what I get paid to do soI generally consider myself one of the most conservative people here for that reason
― droit au butt (Euler), Thursday, 5 July 2018 15:11 (five years ago) link
Standing athwart etc
― devops mom (silby), Thursday, 5 July 2018 15:13 (five years ago) link
yelling cessāte
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 5 July 2018 15:29 (five years ago) link
kids today listen to bad music
― adam the (abanana), Friday, 6 July 2018 22:56 (five years ago) link
Well, haven’t they always?
― devops mom (silby), Friday, 6 July 2018 22:57 (five years ago) link
― adam the (abanana)
if you're talking about greta van fleet i agree
― Arch Bacon (rushomancy), Saturday, 7 July 2018 00:39 (five years ago) link
“Enthusiastic consent” is an unworkable and silly framework. I get the purpose, but it lumps in mediocre consensual sex with people who are willfully blind to signs of implied lack of consent.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 23 July 2018 03:20 (five years ago) link
Like “meh, ok” is not categorically similar to being drunk and scared.
IDK if this is exactly conservative, but sometimes I think American football culture is a good outlet for fascist impulses and we're better off leaving it alone than allowing those impulses to surge elsewhere.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Sunday, 16 September 2018 20:47 (five years ago) link
I don’t know if football is an outlet, I think it just is fascist.
― faculty w1fe (silby), Sunday, 16 September 2018 21:33 (five years ago) link
anyone who has been to a hs pep rally can immediately spot the action before thought ethos
where are my JUNIORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSS AT
― 21st savagery fox (m bison), Sunday, 16 September 2018 21:42 (five years ago) link
*WILD SCREAMING*
Yeah, but it seems like a kind of controlled, fishbowl fascism. I'm on the fence about whether it encourages and grows fascist impulses or contains them I guess. xp
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Sunday, 16 September 2018 21:43 (five years ago) link
Apart from war, what other forms of popular legalized violence are there? Participating and profiting off of people who beat their bodies into CTE ravage and dementia seems extremely fascist.
― Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 16 September 2018 22:56 (five years ago) link
Well there’s MMA and boxing of course. But ironically MMA may actually ravage the body much less than NFL.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Sunday, 16 September 2018 23:22 (five years ago) link
MMA >>> NFL >> boxing for CTE I'd say esp since fighters don't generally take big hits to the dome while training, and definitely don't fighting 16 times a year I'm putting boxing last just cuz the entire point is to win by KO if you're a good BJJ guy in MMA you might avoid getting tagged hardly ever
― gbx, Sunday, 16 September 2018 23:28 (five years ago) link
fighting = fight 16x a year
― gbx, Sunday, 16 September 2018 23:29 (five years ago) link
I'm not convinced Wilbur Ross's trade policy is bad.
I'm also not convinced it's actually conservative.
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, 19 September 2018 03:33 (five years ago) link
by "Ross's trade policy" do you mean tariffs and trade wars, or something different?
i don't really know anything about trade policy, but the consensus seems to be that tariffs as a primary component of trade policy is an idea that was discredited around WWII. then again, those policies were gradually made obsolete by things like WTO and whatever system of international trade that's in place right now, which seems to lead to, among other things, terrible working conditions and environmental degradation in much of the world so that western people can buy cheaper electronic goods. but i'm not sure that means that going back to tariffs and the like is a good idea, either.
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 23 September 2018 19:25 (five years ago) link
i have a better take on "fishbowl fascism"
human sacrifice is an important part of maintaining the social order and we should bring it back
― errang (rushomancy), Sunday, 6 January 2019 11:43 (five years ago) link
and by "better" i mean of course "more horrifying"
― errang (rushomancy), Sunday, 6 January 2019 11:44 (five years ago) link
I kinda think assassinating politicians is a bad thing. Apparently that's hopelessly centrist now.
― Frederik B, Sunday, 6 January 2019 11:52 (five years ago) link
In other words, not conservative.
― Never Turn Your Back On Virginia Woolf (Tom D.), Sunday, 6 January 2019 13:10 (five years ago) link
i roll my eyes a little when people say that twitter should ban a sitting US president from the platform
― marcos, Friday, 18 January 2019 17:56 (five years ago) link
tbh it would be less of an issue if it weren't because @jack is a literal nazi sympathizer
― I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Friday, 18 January 2019 17:57 (five years ago) link
I find the liberal obsession with precocious child activists to be obnoxious and vain.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:38 (four years ago) link
how many of them are there?
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:39 (four years ago) link
if you're referring to thunberg - and you surely are - she's not exactly "precocious" so much as righteously furious:https://ktla.com/2019/09/23/how-dare-you-teen-activist-greta-thunberg-asks-world-leaders-at-un-climate-session/and vilified:https://tvline.com/2019/09/24/greta-thunberg-fox-news-apology-autism-comment-video/
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:43 (four years ago) link
tbf the conservative obsession with precocious child activists is much worse.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:46 (four years ago) link
sure, and the liberal version is harmless by comparison. It just seems to really skirt the edge of naivete and magical thinking.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:55 (four years ago) link
I kinda get where you are coming from but w/r/t climate change the fact of youth/childhood is the whole point
― The Ravishing of ROFL Stein (Hadrian VIII), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:57 (four years ago) link
with school shootings, too, obv it makes sense that kids are among the more vocal/visible voices
Also I hate a world that only adultifies children in order to put them in jail or to rationalize sex with them.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:00 (four years ago) link
my uncool liberal belief is that using precocious children as the voice of an advertising campaign is deeply fucked up, on the same level as taking them to any church that teaches about eternal damnation for sinners
the second half of that is my cool liberal belief though
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:18 (four years ago) link
Greta Thunberg is 16, she can vote in 2 years
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:21 (four years ago) link
like the welch's girl?
― Yerac, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:22 (four years ago) link
xpost
yes, like the welch's girl, although in the case of the welch's children, i guess i can believe that they truly love welch's beverages. just like they also like making fart noises at recess.
but it bugs me much more when the children are selling automobiles, or low-interest loans, or making connections between an insurance company and the history of a baseball team and a city. i don't think it's emotionally scarring to the child, not on the same level that making them believe in hell is scarring, but it's just weird to exploit the voice of an ignorant child for corporate gain
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:34 (four years ago) link
yeah, all of your responses are reasonable and I can't really rationalize my visceral reaction to it. But something about it all reminds me too much of that Clara Jeffrey tweet about her woke 6 year old (even though that's not really a fair comparison since Greta and the Parkland kids are high school age), or I guess just everything awful about clickbait/twitter culture ("This 16 year old DESTROYS Climage Change Deniers") and also just general despair at how little this is probably going to wind up mattering and the feeling that liberals are pinning false hopes on fuzzy feel-good stories about spunky teens.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:46 (four years ago) link
And also, connected to the last two things, excessive liberal faith in grandiose statements of moral outrage as effective politics.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:47 (four years ago) link
its totally fucked up how france used joan of arc to relieve the siege of orleans
― imago, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:47 (four years ago) link
or I guess just everything awful about clickbait/twitter culture ("This 16 year old DESTROYS Climage Change Deniers") and also just general despair at how little this is probably going to wind up mattering and the feeling that liberals are pinning false hopes on fuzzy feel-good stories about spunky teens.
i think it's more the former (clickbait) than any sort of "liberal" thing about precocious children. all these bullshit websites have to have content every single day or they'll go out of business even earlier than they would have otherwise. and so we have more precocious children DESTROYING people, in addition to former hollywood stars that you wouldn't BELIEVE how much plastic surgery they've had, plus pics of rock-solid bods at the beach
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:52 (four years ago) link
i guess it's true that liberal audiences are more likely to listen to a precocious child delivering a message on a relative topic (like climate change or guns in schools) and actually take them seriously.
conservatives occasionally give the stage to children, but it's usually for shit like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPRfP_TEQ-g
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:54 (four years ago) link
by the way, ^^^ is one of the most fucked up things that has ever happened, and it happened over and over
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 16:55 (four years ago) link
I was surprised that Thunberg is 16 when I saw it.... she looks younger to me but I'm also at an age where everyone under 25 looks like they are babies, but I wonder if her look has something to do with the reaction
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 17:01 (four years ago) link
the fact that she's a blond white girl has something to do with it yes
― president of deluded fruitcakes anonymous (silby), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 17:08 (four years ago) link
Greta Thunberg is good. She’s a kid but she knows what she is talking about and she lives by her convictions—more than I can say for nearly every adult I know.
― treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 17:31 (four years ago) link
I think even she is kind of disgusted by the fact that it took her—a precocious kid—to get the world’s attention, rather than the facts. But she is using her platform regardless. Integrity I think.
― treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 17:32 (four years ago) link
Uh, she's not blonde.
― Let them eat Pfifferlinge an Schneckensauce (Tom D.), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 17:35 (four years ago) link
eh, whatever, I dont' know colors
― president of deluded fruitcakes anonymous (silby), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:00 (four years ago) link
I have images/videos turned off and I knew before clicking through exactly what KM's video would be.
― Welcome To My Lifemare (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:15 (four years ago) link
president of deluded fruitcakes anonymous (silby) at 12:08 24 Sep 19the fact that she's a blond white has younger something to do with it yes
I meant the conservative reaction trying to discredit her views, calling her a "mentally ill child" etc I think it's easier because she looks younger than she is, also the other side of liberals looking at her like this precious child telling the hard truthsit has been my understanding that race affects how ppl are perceived but thanks for the reminder
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:22 (four years ago) link
I was surprised that Thunberg is 16 when I saw it.... she looks younger to me
As a young child, she says, she was diagnosed not only with Asperger’s but obsessive-compulsive disorder and what’s called “selective mutism.” Beginning at age 11, seized by a deep depression about the fate of the world, she stopped talking and eating. That has led, she says, to the stunted growth that today gives her the appearance of a preteen, a wise-beyond-her-years golden child.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:33 (four years ago) link
thunberg is really more Cassandra than clickbait as far as i have been able to ascertain but who knows, everybody gets milkshake ducked sooner or later
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:34 (four years ago) link
Thunberg's aneurotypicality makes her an easy target for olds of all types who seem inclined to consider her more mentally ill than realistically terrified for the future of her generation, which is part of why she's had such an international impact. Who can't sympathize with the idea that the prior generations have fucked the world up? She may just be more right than we ever were and she's got the citations to prove it.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:37 (four years ago) link
― Welcome To My Lifemare (Old Lunch)
it's fun down here in living hell, isn't it?
― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:38 (four years ago) link
xp that all said, man alive i do understand your exasperation with so-called grown ups with power asking an indigo brigade to save us from ourselves; that kind of slacktivism is surely a bad look
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:38 (four years ago) link
That was the theme of greta’s speech yesterday!
― treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:11 (four years ago) link
IIRC the children's lawsuit is specifically based on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, so children are exactly who should be talking about it.
It's in addition to activist adults, not instead of.
― Ramen? No thanks, I prefer them cooked (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:17 (four years ago) link
"This is all wrong. I shouldn't be up here. I should be back in school on the other side of the ocean. Yet you all come to us young people for hope. How dare you!"
― treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:17 (four years ago) link
yeah, her self-awareness is a large part of the reason i am #teamgreta
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:25 (four years ago) link
excessive liberal faith in grandiose statements of moral outrage as effective politics
don't you ride for bernie sanders?
― flopson, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:42 (four years ago) link
Sorry to disappoint but my “contrarian” take on Greta Thunberg is that I can sympathize with her plight as an annoying moralist who’s definitely on the spectrum and has an impressively low BMI— Anna Khachiyan (@annakhachiyan) September 24, 2019
― flopson, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:44 (four years ago) link
I don’t know if I’d call the Red Scare ladies “moralists”
― treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:54 (four years ago) link
― marcos, Monday, August 29, 2016 11:21 AM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink
sorry to drag up this very old post but i agree with this opinion regarding latin x and sort of agree with the thrust of this article by ross fucking douthat lol
Liberalism’s Latinx ProblemWhy is Elizabeth Warren describing Latinos with a term that few would use themselves?Everyone remembers the image that demonstrated Donald Trump’s cluelessness about Hispanic voters: the picture, from May 2016, showing him grinning like a fool over a tortilla bowl, with the immortal tweet attached: “Happy #CincodeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!”That Trump tweet received entirely deserved scorn from practically everyone in my profession. On the other hand, nobody save a few carping conservatives found anything unusual when Elizabeth Warren, possible Democratic front-runner, began conducting her outreach to Hispanic voters using the term “Latinx.” (Though she did take a little flack, after the first Democratic debate, for pronouncing it “Latin-X.”)But if Warren’s linguistic move seemed normal to journalists — in our world, the phrase “Latinx” is increasingly commonplace — it’s still a curious one for a politician doing outreach. There’s very little evidence that “Latinx” is a thing that many Hispanics or Latinos call themselves, at least in the kind of numbers that normally determine how political candidates talk.“Though Latinx is becoming common in social media and in academic writing,” a recent Merriam-Webster “words we’re watching” entry noted, “it is unclear whether it will catch on in mainstream use.” And last week a progressive pollster ran the numbers and found that it hasn’t caught on at all: “Despite its usage by academics and cultural influencers, 98 percent of Latinos prefer other terms to describe their ethnicity. Only 2 percent of our respondents said the label accurately describes them, making it the least popular ethnic label among Latinos.”Beyond its novelty, there are obvious reasons for that stark unpopularity: When spoken, “Latinx” sounds like neither normal English nor conversational Spanish, and it looks like what it is, a word designed for ideological purposes rather than for felicity in speech. If you are deep inside progressive discourse, you will immediately understand those purposes — “dismantling the default masculine” of romance languages, centering gender neutrality or nonbinariness in place of a cisgender heteronormativity. If you are outside that discourse, politicians who use it will sound like they don’t know how to say “Latino,” or like they’re talking to an audience that doesn’t really include you.Which, for a politician, seems like a bit of a problem. One of the common defenses of political correctness is that it’s just a synonym for politeness, for calling people what they themselves want to be called and showing sensitivity to minority experiences and burdens that men or white people don’t share. Which is sometimes true: The example of white people whining that they don’t get to say the “N-word,” for instance, shows how anti-P.C. sentiment can sometimes reflect a desire to ignore history and flip common decency the bird.But just as often the language of P.C. has more to do with imposing elite norms of discourse on a wider population that neither necessarily wants them nor fully understands their purpose. This is a particular issue as highly educated white liberals become more progressive on racial issues than many African-Americans and Hispanics; in that context the language that dominates progressivism often emerges out of a dialogue among minority activists and academics and well-meaning white liberals, without much engagement with the larger minority population, its assumptions and habits and beliefs.That lack of engagement turns the politeness argument on its head. It is certainly polite, if you operate in a social world where most people of Latin-American descent describe themselves as Latinx, to use the word in conversation and correspondence. But in their public-facing rhetoric, Democratic politicians are speaking to people who mostly don’t use that word, don’t prefer it to other labels and may not even recognize it. So a politician who uses it, especially a white politician who uses it, may come across as condescending, jargon-dependent and, well, rude.This weekend I wrote about how the increasingly ideological character of the Democratic Party could create a policy problem for its presidential nominee, by forcing a figure like Warren into a detailed defense of a likely-to-be-unpopular, unlikely-to-pass proposal for Medicare for All. Warren’s adoption of “Latinx” is a different example of this problem: There’s no policy here, but the rhetoric still suggests that Warren is distinctively beholden to a hermetic academic-progressive world, to a point where she doesn’t know how to talk to the less-ideological, less-woke, maybe-even-somewhat-conservative Hispanics whose votes her party needs.[Listen to “The Argument” podcast every Thursday morning, with Ross Douthat, Michelle Goldberg and David Leonhardt.]One question about a more progressive Democratic nominee, Warren or Bernie Sanders, is whether either can win back white Obama-Trump voters in the crucial Electoral College states of the Upper Midwest — states where Warren, in this newspaper’s polling, currently trails Trump. But a related question is whether progressivism can succeed in consolidating the larger share of the Hispanic vote that Democrats expected in 2016 and didn’t get — an 80 percent rather than close to a 70 percent share, which would tip states like Florida and Arizona and even Texas and make Trump’s Rust Belt resilience moot.It’s possible, as many progressive activists insist, that the way to achieve that consolidation is by energizing and organizing nonvoters through a campaign that runs clearly to the left. But a lot of Trump-era polling shows the president holding or even expanding his Hispanic support, and it shows Warren, in particular, struggling with Latino voters, both in the primary and the general races.Which is what you’d expect if, as my colleague Tom Edsall has argued, Hispanics (and African-Americans and Asians) now represent the moderate wing of the Democratic Party, the pocketbook-conscious, somewhat culturally conservative flank. In that case they’re a constituency where a less-bigoted-seeming G.O.P. could make substantial inroads, and where even a figure like Trump, if the economy is strong enough and the Democrat seems sufficiently culturally extreme, can at least win enough minority support to keep himself competitive.This is why it matters that the signals that Warren sends when she adopts a phrase like “Latinx” are the cultural equivalent of the policy signal that she sends with Medicare for All. In both cases, she’s telling anyone who listens that a vote for the Democrats isn’t just a vote against Trump (which a clear majority would like to cast) or a vote for popular liberal policies (of which there are many) but a vote for the new progressivism in full — no matter how many Americans, of all ethnicities, are distinctly unready for its rigors.
Why is Elizabeth Warren describing Latinos with a term that few would use themselves?
Everyone remembers the image that demonstrated Donald Trump’s cluelessness about Hispanic voters: the picture, from May 2016, showing him grinning like a fool over a tortilla bowl, with the immortal tweet attached: “Happy #CincodeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!”
That Trump tweet received entirely deserved scorn from practically everyone in my profession. On the other hand, nobody save a few carping conservatives found anything unusual when Elizabeth Warren, possible Democratic front-runner, began conducting her outreach to Hispanic voters using the term “Latinx.” (Though she did take a little flack, after the first Democratic debate, for pronouncing it “Latin-X.”)
But if Warren’s linguistic move seemed normal to journalists — in our world, the phrase “Latinx” is increasingly commonplace — it’s still a curious one for a politician doing outreach. There’s very little evidence that “Latinx” is a thing that many Hispanics or Latinos call themselves, at least in the kind of numbers that normally determine how political candidates talk.
“Though Latinx is becoming common in social media and in academic writing,” a recent Merriam-Webster “words we’re watching” entry noted, “it is unclear whether it will catch on in mainstream use.” And last week a progressive pollster ran the numbers and found that it hasn’t caught on at all: “Despite its usage by academics and cultural influencers, 98 percent of Latinos prefer other terms to describe their ethnicity. Only 2 percent of our respondents said the label accurately describes them, making it the least popular ethnic label among Latinos.”
Beyond its novelty, there are obvious reasons for that stark unpopularity: When spoken, “Latinx” sounds like neither normal English nor conversational Spanish, and it looks like what it is, a word designed for ideological purposes rather than for felicity in speech. If you are deep inside progressive discourse, you will immediately understand those purposes — “dismantling the default masculine” of romance languages, centering gender neutrality or nonbinariness in place of a cisgender heteronormativity. If you are outside that discourse, politicians who use it will sound like they don’t know how to say “Latino,” or like they’re talking to an audience that doesn’t really include you.
Which, for a politician, seems like a bit of a problem. One of the common defenses of political correctness is that it’s just a synonym for politeness, for calling people what they themselves want to be called and showing sensitivity to minority experiences and burdens that men or white people don’t share. Which is sometimes true: The example of white people whining that they don’t get to say the “N-word,” for instance, shows how anti-P.C. sentiment can sometimes reflect a desire to ignore history and flip common decency the bird.
But just as often the language of P.C. has more to do with imposing elite norms of discourse on a wider population that neither necessarily wants them nor fully understands their purpose. This is a particular issue as highly educated white liberals become more progressive on racial issues than many African-Americans and Hispanics; in that context the language that dominates progressivism often emerges out of a dialogue among minority activists and academics and well-meaning white liberals, without much engagement with the larger minority population, its assumptions and habits and beliefs.
That lack of engagement turns the politeness argument on its head. It is certainly polite, if you operate in a social world where most people of Latin-American descent describe themselves as Latinx, to use the word in conversation and correspondence. But in their public-facing rhetoric, Democratic politicians are speaking to people who mostly don’t use that word, don’t prefer it to other labels and may not even recognize it. So a politician who uses it, especially a white politician who uses it, may come across as condescending, jargon-dependent and, well, rude.
This weekend I wrote about how the increasingly ideological character of the Democratic Party could create a policy problem for its presidential nominee, by forcing a figure like Warren into a detailed defense of a likely-to-be-unpopular, unlikely-to-pass proposal for Medicare for All. Warren’s adoption of “Latinx” is a different example of this problem: There’s no policy here, but the rhetoric still suggests that Warren is distinctively beholden to a hermetic academic-progressive world, to a point where she doesn’t know how to talk to the less-ideological, less-woke, maybe-even-somewhat-conservative Hispanics whose votes her party needs.
[Listen to “The Argument” podcast every Thursday morning, with Ross Douthat, Michelle Goldberg and David Leonhardt.]
One question about a more progressive Democratic nominee, Warren or Bernie Sanders, is whether either can win back white Obama-Trump voters in the crucial Electoral College states of the Upper Midwest — states where Warren, in this newspaper’s polling, currently trails Trump. But a related question is whether progressivism can succeed in consolidating the larger share of the Hispanic vote that Democrats expected in 2016 and didn’t get — an 80 percent rather than close to a 70 percent share, which would tip states like Florida and Arizona and even Texas and make Trump’s Rust Belt resilience moot.
It’s possible, as many progressive activists insist, that the way to achieve that consolidation is by energizing and organizing nonvoters through a campaign that runs clearly to the left. But a lot of Trump-era polling shows the president holding or even expanding his Hispanic support, and it shows Warren, in particular, struggling with Latino voters, both in the primary and the general races.
Which is what you’d expect if, as my colleague Tom Edsall has argued, Hispanics (and African-Americans and Asians) now represent the moderate wing of the Democratic Party, the pocketbook-conscious, somewhat culturally conservative flank. In that case they’re a constituency where a less-bigoted-seeming G.O.P. could make substantial inroads, and where even a figure like Trump, if the economy is strong enough and the Democrat seems sufficiently culturally extreme, can at least win enough minority support to keep himself competitive.
This is why it matters that the signals that Warren sends when she adopts a phrase like “Latinx” are the cultural equivalent of the policy signal that she sends with Medicare for All. In both cases, she’s telling anyone who listens that a vote for the Democrats isn’t just a vote against Trump (which a clear majority would like to cast) or a vote for popular liberal policies (of which there are many) but a vote for the new progressivism in full — no matter how many Americans, of all ethnicities, are distinctly unready for its rigors.
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:11 (four years ago) link
TS: using Latinx vs running concentration camps
― DJI, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:20 (four years ago) link
(obviously ignore his arguments about democrat electability which i don't care about and/or agree with)
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:21 (four years ago) link
https://medium.com/@ThinkNowTweets/progressive-latino-pollster-trust-me-latinos-do-not-identify-with-latinx-63229adebcea
same topic but data-based
― na (NA), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:46 (four years ago) link
At this moment the FB chat with my closest friends is ablaze because my neolib buddy, a Cuban who just got a master's from a certain Ivy League school, can't understand "Latinx" while my academic buddy defends it.
In Miami, I never hear "Latinx" outside campus. We -- I -- still use "Hispanic" to describe Latin Americans of Spanish descent (which of course doesn't encompass Brazilians).
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:56 (four years ago) link
Are there people who think “Latinx” is offensive because its use implies there is something wrong with gendered nouns—ie something wrong with the Spanish language in general?
And is the response to this that Spanish is a colonial language anyway and it should be deconstructed?
This is what I wonder about this. I’m neutral on the subject, but I wouldn’t use it to describe someone unless I knew they liked the term.
― treeship., Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01 (four years ago) link
The few friends who've even heard of the term and reject it do so not because Spanish uses gendered nouns and they prefer them: to them it feels like an imposition, another kind of colonialism.
In part. My friend arguing for its use writes, "I think the use of terms depends on contexts, too -- so I agree that politicians should used the preferred terms to appeal to the most people (in this case the census-approved hispanic), while also aligning with LGBTQ issues so as to not alienate that group either."
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:05 (four years ago) link
One of the common defenses of political correctness is that it’s just a synonym for politeness, for calling people what they themselves want to be called and showing sensitivity to minority experiences and burdens that men or white people don’t share.
seems critical - if ppl don't want to be called latinx we shouldn't do it
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:15 (four years ago) link
i use latinx, latino, hispanic in different contexts, they each have problems but none of them bother me that much anymore
― marcos, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:38 (four years ago) link
my issue with latinx is three-pronged:
the über-woke: latinidad is itself a problematic, colonialist, racist construct
the prosaic: in the states there already exists a popular term for latinx people which is gender neutral: hispanic
the anti-elitist: because latinx is primarily used in online social-justice-social-media and academia the majority of people using it are bougie gringx
otoh i do appreciate the issues with the default masculine in spanish, i am happy to use latinx with people who like latinx
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:44 (four years ago) link
what are the issues with the default masculine in spanish
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:50 (four years ago) link
that its default. if you're referring to group of latinos - of unspecified gender - in spanish you use the masculine plural. there is a fairly long-running issue with this in the latin american (and spanish) left and in feminist movements, and a preference for usages such as "latin@s", "latinxs" (which i still see in chilean social media), and "latinx"
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:59 (four years ago) link
(this obviously being in the context of patriarchal societies with high levels of femicide, street harassment, sexual abuse, limited reproductive rights etc.)
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:01 (four years ago) link
I’m always wary of attempts to link linguistic features with real world issues as tho widespread adoption of latinx could potentially address those other very real problems
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:03 (four years ago) link
wait if it's not "latin-ex" how are you supposed to pronounce it
― gbx, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:09 (four years ago) link
lateen-ex
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:11 (four years ago) link
oh yeah, that's another issue, combines spanish and english pronunciation
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:12 (four years ago) link
I know plenty of people who use latinx who are of the group to which it refers. Yes, they are "SJWs" or "SJW adjacent" ... it makes me wince a bit that you seem to be denying marginalized POC the ability to be both "authentically" POC and active in areas historically dominated by white ppl.
I feel like latinx is functional as a shorthand for "latino/latina" even if you take the issue of gender binary out of the equation. And it feels a bit more inclusive than Hispanic -- in the way that Alfred mentions re Brazilians.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link
i am latino
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link
Thanks!
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:14 (four years ago) link
ladx
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:22 (four years ago) link
laxs(xx)
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:23 (four years ago) link
sarahell you may be in an unusual group at least acc to that op article the number of latinx ppl who would refer to themselves with that name are marginal
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:24 (four years ago) link
i have latinx coworkers and friends that self identify as latinx; they are entirely under the age of 35.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link
xp Mordy -- I live in the SF Bay Area -- totally not representative of national norms, I will cop to that no problem
revealed belief: there is something inherently dorky about podcasts
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:26 (four years ago) link
xp at least one latinx friend is trans, so does that make calling them "latinx" more or less objectionable to you?
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:32 (four years ago) link
(nb: i am not going to take my social cues regarding race from ross fucking douthat)
I realize I'm posting anecdotal evidence, but none of the 20 to 30 students I work with closely -- 90 percent of whom are of Latin or South American origin -- identify as Latinx. And we have several gender-nonconforming students in this group.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:34 (four years ago) link
i misread the name as douchehat
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:34 (four years ago) link
No you read correctly
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:35 (four years ago) link
are you asking me? if that's what they want to be called it seems ok to me i only question the wisdom of using these terms in political stump speeches when the number of ppl in the group who like the term are so marginal. obviously there's a difference between calling someone acc to their personal preference and what you say when talking about / addressing a much larger group. xxp
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:35 (four years ago) link
Warren also "said their names" re trans POC women killed this year, iirc? ... It seems like a strategic, considerate move to connect with progressive ppl who view issues of "identity politics" to be significant, whereas the social media filtered Sanders' messaging doesn't acknowledge these issues as much as some people would find appealing/reassuring? ... Not to bring this thread back to Bernie Bros ... I mean, if I want to talk about Warren vs. Sanders, I could spend even more time on FB
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:40 (four years ago) link
my feeling is that there's a SJ culture and then there are SJ issues and the two aren't synonymous and the former involves stuff like battling over terminology/idiom but is deeply unappealing to many ppl including ppl it supposedly covers and that there are issues that might be more widely popular if divorced from this sorta cultural discursive milieu - my preference is entirely the latter (substantive issues) and not the former (rhetorical maneuvers) at all primarily on pragmatic grounds but also personally i find the whole thing kinda tedious but that's subjective obv
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:44 (four years ago) link
You're not wrong about the sense in which it feels like imposition, but part of the "people it supposedly covers" are LGBT people.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:49 (four years ago) link
i like latinx because it looks cool. But I also get confused about it so try to state the country instead (colombians, guatemalans) mostly to pause the americans who assume all spanish speakers are mexicans or puerto ricans.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:52 (four years ago) link
there's a SJ culture and then there are SJ issues and the two aren't synonymous
true, but there is overlap, and the "culture" often is, fuck it, "avant-garde" when it comes to issues or ways in which the issues end up being discussed and framed years/decades later. It's like that "goofy song title" thread -- practices from these esoteric realms often work their way into more popular arenas and then people end up asking, "so where did this come from"?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:56 (four years ago) link
Does anyone have a link to the progressive pollster poll Douthat is writing about?
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 22:21 (four years ago) link
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 22:23 (four years ago) link
But I also get confused about it so try to state the country instead (colombians, guatemalans) mostly to pause the americans who assume all spanish speakers are mexicans or puerto ricans.
― Yerac, Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:52 PM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Obviously this is the ideal solution, and I do find it somewhat frustrating that pushing for this isn't the "SJ" project. Coming up with a more gender-inclusive way to keep using old racial categories sucks, even if I recognize the pragmatics at work (and that latinx might want to find a term to build alliances across national borders).
More appropriate for this thread: having lived through a lot of terminological innovation, I feel like I'm basically waiting for 'latinx' to be replaced with a less tricky term.
― rob, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 22:43 (four years ago) link
― ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, November 6, 2019 2:11 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
fwiw this is what i meant by "latin-x" vs, say, "la-tinx" which was the weird pronunciation i had in my head
― gbx, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 22:48 (four years ago) link
Thanks Mordy!
― Frederik B, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 22:51 (four years ago) link
xp, you mean like "lah-tinks?"
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 23:12 (four years ago) link
"revealed belief: there is something inherently dorky about podcasts."reveal your deeply true beliefs here
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 23:19 (four years ago) link
You can also vote for Celtic Dick
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 23:25 (four years ago) link
Only Built for Cuban L(at)inx
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 23:40 (four years ago) link
― sarahell, Wednesday, November 6, 2019 6:25 PM bookmarkflaglink
Procreation of the Wicked makes more sense that way
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 23:41 (four years ago) link
posts vmic, but i teach at a HS that is 98% latinx. the kids in my lgbt group are more likely to use/self-identify with it, tho not 100%. most of my students in general self-id as mexican. unless there from central america which there are a few. i tend to use latino in class (i teach government) when we're talking politics.
― i'm not a government man; i'm a government, man. (m bison), Thursday, 7 November 2019 00:43 (four years ago) link
imo it should be pronounced "latinequis" in an extra beto voice
― esempio (crüt), Thursday, 7 November 2019 00:56 (four years ago) link
http://www.varsity.co.uk/images/derived/article-objects/md5-f2cb327808a3561c490399774805e5b9/11032.jpeg
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 7 November 2019 01:12 (four years ago) link
cupcakke, the other week:
In the video she claims that she’s ashamed of the music she’s released, much of which is extremely sexual: “I feel as though I’m corrupting the youth… I want to go to heaven after this, and I don’t want to go to hell. Just seeing all-age kids at the shows, seeing them sing along to ‘hump me’ and ‘fuck me’ and all this shit, it has torn me apart. I’m just not happy. I don’t want to be around no one right now… It’s wrong. And even if it’s OK for y’all, it’s not OK with me… I want to be normal again.” She thanks fans and apologizes for letting them down.
ilx, the other day:
This is so weird. I kept seeing this thread. Didn’t realize [Doja Cat] is the artist my 12 yo is obsessing over.― nathom, Saturday, November 16, 2019 9:27 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglinkyour child has good taste― J0rdan S., Sunday, November 17, 2019 7:43 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― nathom, Saturday, November 16, 2019 9:27 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
your child has good taste
― J0rdan S., Sunday, November 17, 2019 7:43 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
idk something just doesn't sit right. idk. someone help work this out. what's good what's bad. is it sexist to be mad about this and not eminem? what if i'm mad about eminem too? what if eminem was 20 years ago? should kids be shielded from this kind of self-expression or is it somehow healthy? etc
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 11:59 (four years ago) link
or is it even racist to complain about these artists? are there white equivalents? self-sexualising pop stars who infantilise their content to some degree? i'm not the person to be speaking about this lol, someone please step in
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:03 (four years ago) link
what are you on about lad
― gyac, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:10 (four years ago) link
thanks i was gonna ask
two points
a) sexuality in popular music is a shocking new developmentb) you kind of have this compulsive urge to contextualize stuff in a way which works for you which is fine if it helps but *shrug* nobody has to engage with everything
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Monday, 18 November 2019 12:14 (four years ago) link
pop artists who self-objectify to an extremely explicit degree and sometimes (or often in doja cat's case - cupcakke doesn't really seem to do it) infantilise this with a wAcKy rANdOm aEStHeTiC that seems purpose-built to get young people interested xp
you're quite right though, i needn't care. but i do, think of the kids etc etc there's a reason i posted it here :/
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:16 (four years ago) link
like i said, it's a moral panic that's older than popular music itself, you just attune differently as you get older. one of a parent's jobs might be to negotiate the interface between their kids and culture but i don't think it's culture's job to do that.
also consider why this particular "bad messaging" might worry you amongst all the many, many messages that people get from cultural artefacts that we might consider to be even more negative than sexy sexy sex
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Monday, 18 November 2019 12:24 (four years ago) link
also even the youngest person is not just a passive recipient of cultural mind control, hypodermic needle theory is cobblers
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Monday, 18 November 2019 12:26 (four years ago) link
it's more aesthetic distaste than moral panic i think, which i agree makes me a large part of the problem
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:26 (four years ago) link
sorry this isn't really meant to be the thread to argue with people's uncool conservative beliefs
no no i welcome it
that said i also kind of think kids should have their internet access restricted, and not just for the obvious reasons
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:27 (four years ago) link
well yeah i don't know if i'd say restricted but people ought to engage with what kids are experiencing and thinking and offer different perspectives and challenge ideas they think are bad, all this with the proviso that hey children will become adults and sooner or later they will do what they want, i'd rather be in dialogue as much as possible
i'm pretty sure that of all the messages i picked up from the culture we swim in since birth "sex is fun" was not the most negative
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Monday, 18 November 2019 12:31 (four years ago) link
I think yeah there is a bit of sexism in here in your response, but as someone who was aware of adult men’s attention since she was 11, it’s not the first thing I’d be worrying about.
― gyac, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:36 (four years ago) link
of course it is necessary to engage with what children are experiencing! but the internet is a place where boundaries and defences can be destroyed very quickly and perhaps not in the most psychologically healthy way. gyac is right to point out that this is by no means limited to the internet. but as i was saying before, children becoming hooked to their phones (and the attendant methods of communication) is perhaps damaging in more subtle, holistic ways regardless
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:43 (four years ago) link
and fwiw i would kick pewdiepie and his ilk the fuck off youtube if i had the power
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:44 (four years ago) link
he, the paul brothers &c are a far, far more malign source of cultural evil than doja cat obv, but i was just surprised to see ilxors making a defence of her aesthetic esp in relation to a preteen audience
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 12:46 (four years ago) link
sexiness is fine. "moo" is not fine b/c it is irritating af
― 💠 (crüt), Monday, 18 November 2019 12:59 (four years ago) link
maybe that is what it boils down to & i'm conflating aesthetics and morals as i feared
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 13:00 (four years ago) link
Moo was a fun joke, her actual songs are much better.
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 18 November 2019 13:01 (four years ago) link
although...is there an overlap
see y'all later
― imago, Monday, 18 November 2019 13:02 (four years ago) link
about a year ago, I was at a friend's birthday party, and for some reason I awkwardly found out that I was the only one that thought the "pepa pig drinks bleach" thing was funny, and the other friends at the party thought it was horrible and scarring for children.
― sarahell, Monday, 18 November 2019 17:09 (four years ago) link
when i was in elementary school kids sang songs about brutally murdering barney. tho tbf i think there has been an uptick in mass murders since we became adults.
― 💠 (crüt), Monday, 18 November 2019 19:22 (four years ago) link
someone needs to show the kids it’s not ok to drink bleach!
― 💠 (crüt), Monday, 18 November 2019 19:23 (four years ago) link
nirvana, maybe
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 18 November 2019 19:56 (four years ago) link
I thought today that—if trump died of a heart attack in office—i’d feel kind of fucked up/guilty about it because it is something i’ve wished for so badly.
― treeship., Monday, 18 November 2019 20:38 (four years ago) link
I sure as fuck wouldn't.
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 November 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link
i would throw a fuckin party and feel no guilt whatsoever
― gbx, Monday, 18 November 2019 20:39 (four years ago) link
I’d feel the world was infinitely better off, don’t get me wrong
― treeship., Monday, 18 November 2019 20:41 (four years ago) link
I'd be cool if he drank bleach tbh
― mh, Monday, 18 November 2019 20:49 (four years ago) link
I've had a bottle of champagne waiting for the day he goes to jail or dies. Either one.
― Yerac, Monday, 18 November 2019 20:54 (four years ago) link
• ^^ all these conservative opinions are boring• trump is alive and he is your president and that's ok, having a decade long emotional response to this is nagl imo• socialism is incel economics• whoever said boomers and gen x are indistinguishable was otm you guys watch snl and listen to the eagles• thank you for loving esby
― lumen (esby), Monday, 18 November 2019 21:11 (four years ago) link
leaning into the character doesn't make these posts any moe palatable
― Suggest Banshee (Hadrian VIII), Monday, 18 November 2019 21:17 (four years ago) link
"more"
at least you can spell
i think ilx should stop worrying so much about trump who is bad but not ahistorically so and will be gone soon enough
socialism iow using the state to provide ppl w/ support + a safety net is a perfectly ok thing and the idea that we all should be strong enough to stand without any support at all is sociopathic
boomers + gen x are indistinguishable, or infuriating gen x'ers with that challop is funny enough that i'll cosign despite not totally seeing it (boomers are an expansive malthusian consumption machine, gen x'ers are cellophane cynics)
i do love esby ty for posting literally anything but post after post of trump impersonations + bitter jeremiads about how terrible everything is
― Mordy, Monday, 18 November 2019 21:35 (four years ago) link
I have to talk my mom and bro down a lot of the time w/r/t trump, because their moaning feels vv defeatist and also none of the links to articles warning about this is how the nazis came to power I see on FB are helpful and are usually irrelevant. and the genuine pain that non-white ppl are going thru can stand on its own as a separate and very different form of suffering and should not be compared to a genocide that killed 12 million bc then others can always correctly point to the fact that what’s happening now isn’t the same thing and isn’t as “bad” which is beside the point of course but nevertheless.
Trump is a pos imo but I’m also white btw and compared to the people he’s targeting and who feel the psychological weight of being considered less than human by a segment of the population (let alone feel daily microaggressions) things have of course sure been “ok” for me. My exhaustion w/people freaking out is bc it feels like helplessness and weakness as if more than half the country didn’t want trump out of office...so idk get confident stupid, or at least act it.
This isn’t aimed necessarily at anyone in this thread ftr.
― omar little, Monday, 18 November 2019 21:52 (four years ago) link
i think that's otm though. and I also think there's this fetishism for defeatism where much of the news being shared is sketchy and fact-deficient, and if you point this out, you get backlash as if you're legitimizing what Trump's doing or being insensitive by simply saying "ok...THAT'S a stretch".
and to your point I don't think it helps those who are more directly impacted if we're up our own asses 24/7 (I'm also wite btw).
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:52 (four years ago) link
Everyone is directly impacted. Some more severely than others. But climate change, crippling medical debt, gun violence—no one is immune from the destruction wrought by the republican party.
― treeship., Monday, 18 November 2019 23:05 (four years ago) link
Except maybe billionaires.
I’m a very privileged person and I’d never say I wasn’t. But it’s not like the nihilism of a major political party doesn’t impact me. And I hope trump dies but i feel bad about hoping that.
― treeship., Monday, 18 November 2019 23:06 (four years ago) link
i don't think anybody's saying we're not all impacted, but some of us are impacted more than others ,and those of us that are more privileged can help the less privileged more by standing up and fighting rather than cowering in fear because we're in a better position to do so.
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:10 (four years ago) link
this idea that wishing something matters is more of a cool magical belief trís
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:10 (four years ago) link
treezy if you have scanner like abilities, now is the time to come forward.
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:11 (four years ago) link
My thoughts are very important
― treeship., Monday, 18 November 2019 23:12 (four years ago) link
... and deadly
― 'Skills' Wallace (Tom D.), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:15 (four years ago) link
White people -- any people -- complaining need do two things:
(1) Remember they're not alone nor are they the most deserving complainants.
(2) Stop talking about what you oppose. Start affirming what you'll endorse next year.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:16 (four years ago) link
deserving complainants jesus
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:18 (four years ago) link
I mean I guess jesus has a valid gripe in all of this but fucker needs to get in line
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:24 (four years ago) link
he wasnt white tbf
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:25 (four years ago) link
back to omar's post upthread, the other thing I hate are the vultures that seem to exist to only say "yeah but", and when any type of positive news comes in, are coming in to say "Here's why this isn't actually good news at all" and go ranting about something everybody already knew about already. like - not all victories are perfect, but is it always "all or nothing".
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:03 (four years ago) link
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)
what are my options? i affirm what is worth endorsing now and i'll vote for whoever winds up nominated with a (d) next to their name. i vote and i will continue to vote, but i see no reason to let it define what's Important to me.
― tantric societal collapse (rushomancy), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 01:01 (four years ago) link
Booming post from Mordy I sometimes wonder whether y'all realise that most of what Trump has done is barely different to any other POTUS it's not one douche it's your fucking system
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 16:55 (four years ago) link
jerryspringeraudience.gif
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:09 (four years ago) link
How is this a conservative belief tho?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:13 (four years ago) link
oic that was a response to esby nm
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:14 (four years ago) link
i think ilx should stop worrying so much about trump who is bad but not ahistorically so
-
y'all realise that most of what Trump has done is barely different to any other POTUS
hard disagree
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:16 (four years ago) link
What shifts in policy has he actually effected tho? I recognise he actualized the country's long standing racism which is traditionally done more discreetly.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:19 (four years ago) link
As far as trump, I think he is def toward the bad end of the historical range but I agree the danger has so far been overstated. Maybe a unique combination of vitriolic hate and sheer incompetence, but if anything the incompetence, while dangerous, may also prevent him from being more effective. He's also blunted by the lumbering and byzantine nature of our political system -- checks and balances do at least halfway work, it turns out. A lot of what I was worried would happen has happened, but to a lesser degree and on a smaller scale. Obviously there are exceptions, e.g. if you are an asylum seeker.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:20 (four years ago) link
I sometimes wonder whether y'all realise that most of what Trump has done is barely different to any other POTUS it's not one douche it's your fucking system
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague)
Get outta here. It's a variant on the conservative saw about Nixon happening to get caught, nyuk nyuk. You can argue, plausibly, that many presidents have signed off on evil things (Pierce and Kansas-Nebraska, Buchanan and, well, everything) but Nixon was world-historic in American history. The point of history is to recognize the exceptions; otherwise, you run aground on a cynicism that's synonymous with sentimentality (waaahhh things won't change).
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:20 (four years ago) link
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive),
You've got the order of your post wrong. He's unique precisely because of his contempt for asylum seekers. This is, "Well, it sucks if you're not like me."
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:21 (four years ago) link
OTT, in terms of what's worse:1) Immigration policy is undoubtedly worse, whatever you can say about how it was under Obama (which, itself, was historically bad, in part because of the changes effected post-9/11)2) White nationalist groups have been emboldened, not solely because of Trump but it helps3) Tax policy has been terrible for all but the wealthy under Trump4) Obamacare has been damaged by Trump's changes and deliberate neglect5) Our foreign policy is going to shit (but in more nuanced, national security state senses that I doubt the average person cares about or feels much)6) Trade policy appears to be harming farmers7) Corruption, graft and nepotism are much more out in the open and brazen
At the same time, I don't think we are close to dictatorship or any of the other more dire predictions at this point.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:24 (four years ago) link
I think waaaah things won't change under capitalist faux-democracy, Liberal or otherwise. Even tricky Dicky achieved detente with China which was a bigger achievement than some of the less reviled tossers who held the post.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:25 (four years ago) link
Maybe some ppl don't remember the dozens of articles about how Trump's administration is nascent fascism and essays by reputable Holocaust scholars like Timothy Snyder explaining how similar our situations are to pre-WW2 Germany but "he's not as bad as GWB" would not have been most ppl's takeaway two years ago and I feel like a lot of ppl haven't noticed yet that those are the circumstances we find ourselves as his first term comes to an end.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:28 (four years ago) link
I've argued often about Trump as culmination vs aberration. The two are a Venn diagram.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:28 (four years ago) link
I have a lot of LGBT friends in regular distress based on Trump policies and resurgence of hatemongering and my reactions are often to those expressions of distress. Especially my transgender friends.
I don't think we're on the precipice of dictatorship either but real people I know are affected by this and saying so. And real people I don't know.
That's what I react to - I think the overall point is that those of us who are privileged should be the ones using said privilege to stand up for the disadvantaged rather than wallowing in nihilistic despair all day, absolving ourselves of doing anything.
(I could stand to do more, for sure)
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:36 (four years ago) link
he's probably the new republican normal. they're probably not going to go back to nominating mitt romney types.
otoh their next trumpesque figure probably won't quite have the x factor of ol' donny deals the tv star and hopefully will be less electorally successful
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:37 (four years ago) link
Sadly otm on both counts
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:38 (four years ago) link
Personality cult candidates come along every so often (arguably Clinton and Obama), but you def can't build a party around them long term.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:40 (four years ago) link
One common take on Bevin losing Kentucky is that he had Trump's vitriol without his charisma.
i may be a little prickly on the topic of "what has he actually DONE, though?" because my former workplace has under attack systematically by a series of corrupt Trump-appointees since the transition began in late 2016, and just about every major environmental regulation has endured reversals and setbacks and completely transparent giveaways to heavy industries that will take years to reverse. that's not even including the effect of the supposed leader of the world actively fighting to make climate change worse.
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:42 (four years ago) link
and I'm a queer person of color for whom not even Bush appointees were so contemptuous toward people like us
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:46 (four years ago) link
I realise he's a terrible president and has materially made life more horrible and scary for a bunch of people, so fair enough. I just think every president was a horrible right wing cunt with blood all over their hands and the aesthetic distaste for Trump is often exaggerated and denies the general truth of the polity.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:47 (four years ago) link
This is a circular argument. If an administration aims its policies toward making your life a hell, then he's horrible and scary.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:48 (four years ago) link
"But he is as bad as smiling Ronnie and the dumb Bushes?" doesn't hold much water.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:49 (four years ago) link
I agree with NV et al on the subject that the current USA president is more of the same---conserving what was before. given that capitalism makes things steadily worse, more of the same means things get relatively worse.
this is all seen from overseas, thank goodness
― L'assie (Euler), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:50 (four years ago) link
As I said, fair enough. Awful on a scale full of badness is still awful. Shitty world if people think Biden would be an improvement tho.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:52 (four years ago) link
Also Reagan, the Bushes, most presidents were capable of enacting more materially harmful policies, surely?
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:53 (four years ago) link
He is less predictable which is scarier, idk about worse. I’ve never been a big reagan guy either.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:53 (four years ago) link
It's hard to compare 3 years of Trump to 8 years of W or Reagan. So far I think W still did much more real and lasting damage, but there's a lot of time left.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link
I mean, I hope there isn't a lot of time left, but I'm a pessimist.
No president in my lifetime has had such a pernicious effect upon the electorate, particularly in terms of urging the more susceptible to give in to their basest and most antisocial urges. If he had no other impact during his tenure, that alone puts him head and shoulders above any other POTUS in the 'evil deeds' department. We're going to be dealing with his aftermath for decades.
― Yul, Tied: A Celebration of Brynner in Bondage (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link
If you’re an accelerationist type he is good. No one could do more to make the US government seem stupider and less legitimate than he does.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:56 (four years ago) link
I always enjoyed Hunter S arguing that Ford was more pernicious than Nixon because his clown persona distracted from what he was actually doing
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:58 (four years ago) link
There is some truth to that kind of analysis. Trump seems monstrous and is monstrous; maybe this is “better” than someone who seems like a humble public servant but is monstrous. Idk. I despise this fucking guy.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:00 (four years ago) link
Certainly not making a case for Trump but yeah in some ways it's good when everybody can see what's on the end of the fork
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:02 (four years ago) link
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague),
This is true and also true of Reagan's amiability.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:07 (four years ago) link
it seems, in some ways, however, harder to oppose a regime like trump's as it is so chaotic and dysfunctional and he covers up everything he does with a whirlwind of outrageous lies. it's like a moving target.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:15 (four years ago) link
seems like people who don't think he's had an out of ordinary effect don't really care about the people/things he's had an out of ordinary effect on.
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link
that's why so many people got sucked into the russiagate conspiracy. they were looking for a pattern that would make sense of the traumatic idiocy of the situation.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:18 (four years ago) link
The lying thing seems on a different scale with Trump. Also he's a moron, but then that's hardly new and, of course, Twitter didn't exist.
― 'Skills' Wallace (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:19 (four years ago) link
jfc did anyone read the mueller report
just the executive summaries
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:19 (four years ago) link
I think what treeship means wrt "Russiagate" is the grand theory that Trump is "Putin's Puppet" and everything that's happening can be attributed to a neat and tidy plot by Russia.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:25 (four years ago) link
It's not just that guy - it's also the sort of people he has given power to (in government) and those he has emboldened (in the public arena).
The absolute worst people in the country were elated by his rise. They felt ecstatically vindicated by his victory. And they act out their horribleness more loudly and more openly than they did beforehand, because they believe the Trump ascendancy gives them greater impunity to be the assholes that they are.
― they see me lollin' (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:26 (four years ago) link
xp That's just easier to make sense of than what seems more likely to me, which is that a narcissistic sociopathic reality tv host and landlord tapped into a perfect storm of resentment, ignorance, confusion, backlash, a weak democratic party and candidate, and certain shifts in right-wing thought and strategy both nationally and globally, through a combination of savvy and luck, and that Russia probably helped a bit but isn't the prime mover here.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:29 (four years ago) link
So what your saying is, the system is fucked and enables monsters?
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:30 (four years ago) link
unquestionably, but I'm not sure how the fact that the system enables monsters negates the fact of the system-enabled monster. If the point is that ending the trump administration alone won't get us very far, I agree, but no tyrant has ever appeared in a vaccuum. The one hopeful thing I see coming out of the sheer visceral repugnance of trump is a ton of new energy and blood going into political organizing, and I still believe that anytime that happens, it net favors left vs center.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:47 (four years ago) link
I do agree that the future looks bright if the Dems can dodge the centrist wanker bullet
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:49 (four years ago) link
I'm having ongoing fights with my wife about my continued focus on "the big picture". I used to be an adherent of liberal democracy and Donald Trump's presidency, among other things, has opened my eyes about its larger problems.
The problems were always there, the government was never really acting in the interests of all the people, but for this world to function peacefully we need to have a certain level of trust for each other. Trumpists are people who did not have that level of trust in the system, gained power, and now we are all equal in that we have no reason to trust authorities, any authorities, or the Rule of Law or any of that shit. OK, yeah, maybe democracy was just a matter of plausible deniability. And now we don't have that plausible deniability, and we can't talk to each other, and if we can't talk to each other ultimately we get to the point where we can't coexist peacefully. How do we restore trust? Fuck if I know. I've been searching for the dolphins in the sea.
― tantric societal collapse (rushomancy), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:24 (four years ago) link
it's very similar to the effect of the Brexit referendum in the UK, the facade has come away and everybody can see the terminator for what it is
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:31 (four years ago) link
Ok. ahem.
I have a real one.
I essentially agree with this column. Not in every particular claim, but in the main, pretty much.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/opinion/art-politics.html
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:12 (four years ago) link
i mean, i don't support the dichotomy he sets up between the personal on the one side and the political on the other. but i find a lot of contemporary art one-dimensional and sort of weighed down by the surrounding discourse, which is often "political" but in an extremely abstract way.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:18 (four years ago) link
Paywall - any chance of c&ping?
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:19 (four years ago) link
I will not read a David Brooks column with the headline "Who Will Teach Us How to Feel?"
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:21 (four years ago) link
OpinionWho Will Teach Us How to Feel?When art shrinks to the size of politics.My colleagues at T Magazine had a very good idea. They gathered some artists and museum curators and asked them to name the artworks that define the contemporary age — pieces created anywhere in the world since 1970.I can’t stop thinking about the results. The first thing you notice is that of the 25 works they chose, very few are paintings or sculptures.Most of the pieces selected are intellectual concepts or political attitudes expressed through video, photographs, installations or words. In 1982, for example, Jenny Holzer put the words “Abuse of Power Comes as No Surprise” on a digital billboard in Times Square. In 1985, Barbara Kruger took an image of a ventriloquist’s dummy and printed “When I Hear the Word Culture, I Take Out My Checkbook” across its face.Of the 27 artists recognized, 20 were born in the U.S.The next thing you notice is that most of these artists haven’t captured or maybe even appealed to a mass audience. If asked to name the era-defining artists from the 49 years prior to 1970, most of us would come up with world-famous artists: Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, Georgia O’Keeffe, Mark Rothko, Alexander Calder, Edward Hopper, Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, etc. The artists listed here, from the 49 years after 1970, are generally not well known outside the art world: for instance, Gordon Matta-Clark, Lutz Bacher and Michael Asher.Most of the artists have adopted a similar pose: political provocateur. The works are less beautiful creations to be experienced and more often political statements to be decoded. In 1989, for example, Cady Noland made a silk-screen of the famous photo of Lee Harvey Oswald getting shot. There are eight large bullet holes across his body and there’s an American flag stuffed in his mouth.The most provocative pieces are in the realm of sexual politics, where the art world has had its biggest influence. Jeff Koons is recognized here for “Ilona on Top,” a painting showing him having sex with the porn star who would become his wife.Several works redefine female power. In 1974, the artist Lynda Benglis posed naked with a dildo between her legs. In 1972, Judy Chicago, Miriam Schapiro and others created “Womanhouse,” a living feminist manifesto. In 1993, Catherine Opie created “Self-Portrait/Cutting,” in which someone has carved two stick figures and a house into her back with a knife or razor. The figures depict an idyllic domestic dream that was hard for lesbians to realize at the time.The general attitude is: Let’s smash injustice with a sledgehammer. What you see when all these works are brought together is how the aesthetic has given way to the political, how the inner life has given way to the protest gesture.Artists have always taken political stands, but in some eras there’s more of a conviction that beauty yields larger truths about the human condition that are not accessible through politics alone — and these are the truths that keep us sane. Now one gets the sense that not only is the personal political, but that the political has eclipsed the personal. What’s missing from most of these pieces is human contact and emotional range.Among these 25 pieces, 20 are impersonal and only five allow you to see what life is like for another human being, including works by Nan Goldin and Judy Chicago. Only a few explore relationships and emotional connection. There almost seems to be a taboo now against capturing states like joy, temptation, gratitude, exaltation, betrayal, forgiveness and longing.The absence of that emotional range reminds you that one of the things art has traditionally done is educate the emotions. Lisa Feldman Barrett and other neuroscientists argue that emotions aren’t baked into our nature as things all humans share. They are constructed by culture — art and music, and relationships. When we see the depth of psychological expression in a Rembrandt portrait, or experience the intimacy of a mother and daughter in a Mary Cassatt, we’re not gaining a new fact, but we’re experiencing a new emotion. We’re widening the repertoire of ways we can feel and can communicate feelings to others.Barrett uses the phrase “emotional granularity” to capture the reality that some people — and some eras — experience a wider range and specificity of emotions than others. People with highly educated emotions can be astonished by the complexity of other people without feeling the need to judge them immediately as good or bad according to some political logic.This list fascinated me because it comes at a moment when everything is political — and our politics has brutalized the nation’s emotional life.One of the pieces that stands out is Arthur Jafa’s 2016 video montage “Love Is the Message, the Message Is Death.” It’s an intense compilation of the African-American experience — love, celebration, police shootings, religious frenzy, racism, dance, struggle. There are so many powerful emotions in a short burst, an overflowing of relationship. It’s a political work that transcends politics and reminds us: This is how life looks with human particularity left in.
My colleagues at T Magazine had a very good idea. They gathered some artists and museum curators and asked them to name the artworks that define the contemporary age — pieces created anywhere in the world since 1970.
I can’t stop thinking about the results. The first thing you notice is that of the 25 works they chose, very few are paintings or sculptures.
Most of the pieces selected are intellectual concepts or political attitudes expressed through video, photographs, installations or words. In 1982, for example, Jenny Holzer put the words “Abuse of Power Comes as No Surprise” on a digital billboard in Times Square. In 1985, Barbara Kruger took an image of a ventriloquist’s dummy and printed “When I Hear the Word Culture, I Take Out My Checkbook” across its face.
Of the 27 artists recognized, 20 were born in the U.S.
The next thing you notice is that most of these artists haven’t captured or maybe even appealed to a mass audience. If asked to name the era-defining artists from the 49 years prior to 1970, most of us would come up with world-famous artists: Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, Georgia O’Keeffe, Mark Rothko, Alexander Calder, Edward Hopper, Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, etc. The artists listed here, from the 49 years after 1970, are generally not well known outside the art world: for instance, Gordon Matta-Clark, Lutz Bacher and Michael Asher.
The most provocative pieces are in the realm of sexual politics, where the art world has had its biggest influence. Jeff Koons is recognized here for “Ilona on Top,” a painting showing him having sex with the porn star who would become his wife.
Several works redefine female power. In 1974, the artist Lynda Benglis posed naked with a dildo between her legs. In 1972, Judy Chicago, Miriam Schapiro and others created “Womanhouse,” a living feminist manifesto. In 1993, Catherine Opie created “Self-Portrait/Cutting,” in which someone has carved two stick figures and a house into her back with a knife or razor. The figures depict an idyllic domestic dream that was hard for lesbians to realize at the time.
The general attitude is: Let’s smash injustice with a sledgehammer. What you see when all these works are brought together is how the aesthetic has given way to the political, how the inner life has given way to the protest gesture.
Artists have always taken political stands, but in some eras there’s more of a conviction that beauty yields larger truths about the human condition that are not accessible through politics alone — and these are the truths that keep us sane. Now one gets the sense that not only is the personal political, but that the political has eclipsed the personal. What’s missing from most of these pieces is human contact and emotional range.
The absence of that emotional range reminds you that one of the things art has traditionally done is educate the emotions. Lisa Feldman Barrett and other neuroscientists argue that emotions aren’t baked into our nature as things all humans share. They are constructed by culture — art and music, and relationships. When we see the depth of psychological expression in a Rembrandt portrait, or experience the intimacy of a mother and daughter in a Mary Cassatt, we’re not gaining a new fact, but we’re experiencing a new emotion. We’re widening the repertoire of ways we can feel and can communicate feelings to others.
Barrett uses the phrase “emotional granularity” to capture the reality that some people — and some eras — experience a wider range and specificity of emotions than others. People with highly educated emotions can be astonished by the complexity of other people without feeling the need to judge them immediately as good or bad according to some political logic.
This list fascinated me because it comes at a moment when everything is political — and our politics has brutalized the nation’s emotional life.
One of the pieces that stands out is Arthur Jafa’s 2016 video montage “Love Is the Message, the Message Is Death.” It’s an intense compilation of the African-American experience — love, celebration, police shootings, religious frenzy, racism, dance, struggle. There are so many powerful emotions in a short burst, an overflowing of relationship. It’s a political work that transcends politics and reminds us: This is how life looks with human particularity left in.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:22 (four years ago) link
A comment:
@Tyler WilliamsI am an old white guy, an actor, and Shakespeare lover, Van Gogh fanatic and daily classical music listener...I frequently have your response to Brook's writings. But I must admit that these modern artistic expressions do leave me cold. I suppose because, like Brooks, I'm looking for comfort, solace in art. Anger frightens me (why I hate trump and the GOP). I know, I need to have courage, determination and resist...I wish modern art helped me. I feel lost.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:23 (four years ago) link
Fucking white people and their fucking lostness.
Fucking Van Gogh fanatics
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link
so... it's an essay about an essay in T Magazine huh
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link
ok boomer
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link
people who are frightened by anger make me mad
― tantric societal collapse (rushomancy), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:29 (four years ago) link
to be clear, that's not what i'm saying.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:31 (four years ago) link
I mostly don't like anger as an aesthetic but yeah fuck privileged longing for politeness
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:32 (four years ago) link
Not you treesh, the article and a section of the commentariat
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:33 (four years ago) link
it's true that i learned how to feel emotion from jackson pollock
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:49 (four years ago) link
Brooks conflates an aggregate list from chosen contributors with the total body of work that was produced during the era, then cherry-picks a list of artists that he seems to imply are counter to the contemporary trends he's mentioned without context. I'd be more interested in what a list produced in 1970 about the prior decades would look like compared to his list, because the implication is that he's using the same criteria as opposed to making a 1921 - 1970 list that fits his narrative.
― mh, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:27 (four years ago) link
blah blah Pollock blah blah CIA propaganda blah blah apolitical
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:29 (four years ago) link
but what does he think about marvel films
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:36 (four years ago) link
it's true that the contemporary art world -- the world of the major museums and the major galleries -- is captured by this highly arid type of language and like way of framing stuff. i like some of the work on that list, but i think it's symptomatic that these were the pieces that were determined as the most "important." people love njideka akunyili crosby, peter doig, yayoi kusama, a hundred million others, but they are left out in favor of people like sturtevant, marcel broodthaers , hans haacke and these other artists who are mostly engaged in institutional critique.
the art world is obsessed with itself and especially with critiquing itself.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:37 (four years ago) link
I think we know. They help him learn to (cop a) feel.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:37 (four years ago) link
the dumb blood-stained Bushes
btw
― 💠 (crüt), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:44 (four years ago) link
ppl who believe trump is worse than gwb have tds
― Mordy, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:53 (four years ago) link
say what you will about the tenets of neoconservatism but at least it's an ethos
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 22:55 (four years ago) link
we should do a ballot poll of the best presidents
― 💠 (crüt), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:04 (four years ago) link
wm shabazz would win obv
I liked their early stuff before they were presidents
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:05 (four years ago) link
Ornaldo Bloompz
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:08 (four years ago) link
from a historical perspective I actually don't know whether Alfred would send Reagan to The Hague or if he's safely Sound, Solid Entertainments
― 💠 (crüt), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:12 (four years ago) link
i don't know anything about the Art World so i am obv lazily tempted to believe it is all a bunch of highly specialized scamming at the expense of some of the least sympathetic marks on the planet, but who knows. however
In 1989, for example, Cady Noland made a silk-screen of the famous photo of Lee Harvey Oswald getting shot. There are eight large bullet holes across his body and there’s an American flag stuffed in his mouth.
obv the problem with this is not that it's "political" but that it's so pale and shallow in comparison to the wealth of oswald-related art in other, masser media-- libra, oswald's tale, jfk, the original photograph itself-- that it's not political enough, and a democrat like me's inclined to suspect it is its very masslessness that has made it so
i don't rly trust david brooks to accurately describe anything to me tho.
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:43 (four years ago) link
I jes' hate to think they're blaming it on some silly fuckin' Oswald who didn't know shit anyway!
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:53 (four years ago) link
it is my face, but my face has been superimposed! i have done a lot of photographic work!
― difficult listening hour, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 23:59 (four years ago) link
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, November 19, 2019 4:23 PM bookmarkflaglink
― tantric societal collapse (rushomancy), Tuesday, November 19, 2019 4:29 PM bookmarkflaglink
yeah idgi either. for instance, I never watched the Charlottesville video, and then I went and saw BlackKKKlansman and naturally it's what concludes the movie. the context of how it was included in the movie fired me up and motivated me in a way that no other bit of world news had in a hot minute.
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 00:42 (four years ago) link
If Spike Lee films were included in that T Magazine article I would have liked it way more—fyi
― treeship., Wednesday, 20 November 2019 01:30 (four years ago) link
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:17 AM (yesterday)
otm!!
however ...
3) Tax policy has been terrible for all but the wealthy under Trump
That actually isn't true ... granted, it has been pretty fucking great for the wealthy. My practice expanded this year so now I have over 200 clients, maybe only one or two I would consider "wealthy," and I can tell you: there were plenty of people for whom things weren't any worse than in previous years. There were some that were spared the time on tracking various expenses. There were some that benefited from the creation of the QBI deductionThere were some that ended up owing who "never owe" because the changes were so last-minute and wide-ranging that the entities that create the withholding tables and rate calculations were scrambling to figure out how to adjust their formulas (which had pretty much been the same since at least 1986) so people who were employees with incomes within certain ranges (generally middle, not low income people) ended up with less tax taken out of their paychecks than should have been.The biggest impact I saw was the big "fuck you" to the "blue states" (California, New York, Massachussetts) that have higher costs of living as well as state income taxes. ... The "SALT" thing that was in the news for like about a week a while back. The clients this had the most effect on: the wealthier ones.The most heartbreaking change: the elimination of casualty/theft loss deductions except for in the case of an officially declared disaster.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 19:53 (four years ago) link
i don't think ZS's comment is otm. you could say this about any president - that for the ppl who are negatively impacted it's cold comfort to say that it's business as usual. okay. but that doesn't mean it's an out of ordinary effect. like maybe GWB was better for immigration from latin american countries. so if you happen to be a latin american immigrant maybe you'd prefer GWB to trump. but what if you were an iraqi or a prisoner being tortured, or etc etc by the extreme subjectivity standard of "for some ppl he's much worse" i'm sure you could ppl for whom obama was much worse than trump (i know some orthodox jews who seem to believe this). i don't think it's a useful standard.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 21:09 (four years ago) link
does quantifying the ppl make it useful??? Like, say, 10k people for whom obama was worse, vs. 100k people for whom trump was worse?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link
trump has probably straight-up killed fewer people than many of his predecessors, which is a point in his favor
he's also been incredibly destructive to the governing institutions of the united states in a fashion that will never go away. if you are black, gay, purple etc. you may never have had much faith in those institutions, but a lot of people did. there is no returning to a time before the country elected a wildly unqualified game-show host and saw one of its parties fall in line to support all of his extremely obvious lies. the window of what is possible in america and the legitimacy of its government and its standing in the world have changed in ways that can't be undone
trump didn't do all of this on his own, of course, but he's both the culmination and the exemplar
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 21:27 (four years ago) link
Clinton's trade and crime policies may have Trump beat if it's a numbers game
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 21:29 (four years ago) link
i recognize i'm in a losing position in this debate, in part because i believe a lot of the negative impact of trump is psychological, which is not going to be easily quantified and compared to other presidents. i don't know how you quantify the fear that many millions of immigrants viscerally feel. if you try to quantify the number of people deported or detained etc and compare it, you're still not getting the full picture because the damage from trump is so much larger than that to immigrants. knowing that a good 45-50% of the country willingly supports a president who sees immigrants as subhuman is something that is "negative", in my book. or depression. i can't quantify how depressing seeing millions of people support the dumbest person in world history feels, but i do know that on a lot of days i just want to die and i don't give a fuck. but i used to feel like that during the obama years too! maybe i feel like that 1.24x more than i did before? it's just pointless to try to measure it. but i know it's real. (and i can't prove it! lol! great argument, self!)
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 21:59 (four years ago) link
Nah you did good. Yr otm. Feel better and accept the otm
― sarahell, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:05 (four years ago) link
but i stand by my assessment that people who are cruising through this presidency like any other and don't see much difference are people who just don't care much about the people who are negatively affected. i guess that's understandable. like mordy says, in the bush years, uh, we tortured the fuck out of a bunch of people in the middle east. was i psychologically traumatized by that to the same degree? isn't that all subjective, too?
i guess personally speaking, the difference is that the many conservatives in my life kind of conspicuously avoided talking about all that and seemed embarrassed, whereas now they are all vocally racist about immigrants and proud about it (for example). or just the idea that trump is such an incredible dumb fuck and they still like him. trump really has torn a lot of families in two over the last 3 years, in a way that bush/iraq didn't, for better or worse. but again, i can't quantify that or prove it, so
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:10 (four years ago) link
lol, thanks sarahell
Karl otm
― they see me lollin' (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:13 (four years ago) link
This is his only possible move, obviously, but it’s also so exhausting to have the leader of the free world just hammer his people with lie after lie every day. It’s taking such a toll on the American psyche. https://t.co/eHJQ3i4yMk— Ken Tremendous (@KenTremendous) November 20, 2019
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:15 (four years ago) link
to take this a bit further, sorry
if you try to quantify the number of people deported or detained etc and compare it, you're still not getting the full picture because the damage from trump is so much larger than that to immigrants. knowing that a good 45-50% of the country willingly supports a president who sees immigrants as subhuman is something that is "negative", in my book
this is true with other things too, including white supremacy. i can see a criticism of my point being that people of color already knew that so many people were racist, so it's nothing new or damaging. i can't speak to that. but i do think the trump era is like a _confirmation_ of their racism. it was largely implied and concealed, earlier, through indirect things like republicans constant disdain for programs that helped low-income communities and people of color, or their constant attack on voting rights. but there was still enough indirectness for people like me to look at their parents and think "yeah, they support racist policies, but they wouldn't support george bush if he, say, constantly compared back people to dogs, even after being called out on it over and over". but now, it's a _confirmation_ of that reality. which i should have known, earlier. white people like me caught some heat, justifiably, after the election, for being so surprised at racism of other white people. personally, i was surprised at the intensity of the racism, and how openly it was embraced by people i know. in the bush years, their support for the war and for neoconservatism disgusted me. but it's different now. now they're fucking dead to me, for seeing what he supports and still pulling the goddamn lever. i don't think i'm the only one who has experienced this acceleration of disgust for people who used to be close.
actually, last minute tone shift - if you don't see the psychological damage or the affect on people's lives, just stay where you are! it sounds awesome there!
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:28 (four years ago) link
Feels like a lot of this hinges on how you feel about or value postwar institutions and US cold war policy with respect to Europe.
If you believe that on balance these institutions—the UN, NATO, the west's absorption of former Soviet blocs, Russia's containment, etc.—was basically stabilizing and facilitated 75 years of relative peace in Europe (notwithstanding civil strife, balkanization, etc) then FUCKING HELL NO—Donald Trump is in a category all by himself. It's not even remotely close. This president unlike his immoral predecessors, is wholly amoral. It's a qualitative difference and unchecked will have lasting consequences Reagan Bush Obama Clinton can only dream of.
BTW, China responded to totally arbitrary senseless US Paris withdrawal by ramping up coal consumption:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-china-coal/china-coal-fired-power-capacity-still-rising-bucking-global-trend-study-idUSKBN1XU07Y
― Suggest Banshee (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:33 (four years ago) link
it sounds like you're saying that the psychological impact is greater on people who had a certain idealism about the united states and the people who live here that has been crushed. it could be so! but this might be inconsistent with your assertion that if you think trump is business as usual then you're blasé to the negative impact he's had. now i'm not sure who is arguing the uncool conservative belief anymore however to make it easier i'll just state another presumably uncool conservative belief which is that you have a measure of control over your psychological response to trump, especially if you're not a part of a group being targeted (but even if you are). fwiw i've suffered most of my life from depression + anxiety and only recently have reached a certain level of internal stability so this message is as much to me as anyone else but ppl have been in far more direr + forlorn circumstances than any of us and maintained an equilibrium and found meaning and purpose and kept their chin up etc and so certainly we, who mostly are impacted by trump lying on twitter i guess, can find a way forward as well.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:34 (four years ago) link
― Mordy, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:35 (four years ago) link
If you believe that on balance these institutions—the UN, NATO, the west's absorption of former Soviet blocs, Russia's containment, etc.—was basically stabilizing and facilitated 75 years of relative peace in Europe (notwithstanding civil strife, balkanization, etc)
I think this is too speculative to say for sure either way (either that these institutions are the reason for stabilization or were a product of other forces - like burnout from WW2, globalization, etc, or that trump has irrevocably damaged them).
― Mordy, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:37 (four years ago) link
I think that's fair, my point is this president has no position on the matter, it comes down to how these instituitions dovetail with his own self (as opposed to national) interest.
I for one wasn't sure in 2016 that "no principles, non-ideological" could really be worse than "ideological, compromised principles."
It is. Keeping score by body count now isn't gonna tell the story. Wait five or ten years and see where all this chaos lands us.
― Suggest Banshee (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:39 (four years ago) link
remember that brexit vote happened months before the 2016 US election under obama's watch so it seems questionable to blame fracturing of EU on trump
― Mordy, Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:45 (four years ago) link
it sounds like you're saying that the psychological impact is greater on people who had a certain idealism about the united states and the people who live here that has been crushed. it could be so! but this might be inconsistent with your assertion that if you think trump is business as usual then you're blasé to the negative impact he's had.
hmmm, i don't think so! i still disagree with the premise that trump is BAU. the whole open embrace of white supremacism thing isn't business as usual to me. like i rambled above, it has precedents, but not to this degree. nothing is implied now, it's raw racism, and it's the feature, not a bug. his supporters love it. do you not notice that? not to make too many assumptions, but have you been to a flyover state recently? it's gotten creepier since 2016
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:49 (four years ago) link
xp I'm not—I think Trump was lifted by the same global far-right wave that has injured europe. I also think any one of Trump's predecessors (not for altrustic reasons!) would maintain a bulwark agaist it, whereas with this guy forget about it.
― Suggest Banshee (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:51 (four years ago) link
also (and finally, promise) i admit that i can't unsee what i clearly see in front of my face very day, which is the increasing polarization of the country, the purposeful muddying of "truth" or "news" or "facts", the demise of institutions to keep these things in check (i know you and i disagree on that), etc
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 22:56 (four years ago) link
I feel like the NYC school system has been hijacked by insane woke ideologues who think twitter is real life and don't want to think through the practical implications of anything they propose.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 December 2019 21:06 (four years ago) link
Only Built for Cuban Dinks^unsent post from last time I was looking at this thread on the app.what kind of woke proposals, man alive?
― ☮ (peace, man), Friday, 20 December 2019 21:27 (four years ago) link
For context, NYC schools are divided into "districts" but these are not like suburban school districts -- each district could easily have like 30 elementary schools and 10 middle schools (high school is already by application and citywide).
There was some Stanford study on diversity benefitting students, so now they have this goal of having every school reflect the demographics of its district within three years, every school reflect the demographics of its entire BOROUGH within five years (remember that each borough of NYC is already the size of a major US city), and every school reflect the demographics of the whole city within 10 years.
My district in queens is now one of the guinea pig districts and they are trying to come up with a plan for it, starting with middle school, but it spans all the way from rego park to jamaica and many parts have spotty public transit. In order to achieve their stated goals (due to the current school demographics) they'd have to send kids all around the district, mostly from the northwest end (rego park and forest hills) to the southeast end (jamaica). This is in the exact opposite direction of 95% of parents' commutes, and it's NYC so plenty of people don't have cars. Basically you'd either have to put your 11 year old on a subway to a bus through a relatively dangerous neighborhood or bring them to school and add an hour to your commute each way.
All such concerns are being scoffed at as the product of white privilege and racism, even though I have yet to see any evidence that the parents in Jamaica want this either. Another oddity of the whole thing is that the middle schools in my neighborhood are already about 30% hispanic, 10% african american, 30% asian and 30% white, so they really are not "segregated" per se, it's just that the schools in jamaica are mostly hispanic and african american, so somehow it's supposed to make a difference if we sprinkle some white kids into those schools?
In addition to these "diversity plans" school chancellor is also trying to end all gifted and talented programs and remove tests used to get into specialized high schools. Ironically the things that he's trying to remove were the imperfect solutions that enticed affluent people to stay in the public school system over the last 20 years where they previously would have left entirely (suburbs, or private school for the wealthier ones).
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 20 December 2019 22:28 (four years ago) link
wouldn't ability-based applications for high school lead very quickly to segregation by class (and race) even if it were city-wide?
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 20 December 2019 23:23 (four years ago) link
iirc nyc has the most segregated schools in the country
― peloton for the painfully alone (m bison), Saturday, 21 December 2019 02:10 (four years ago) link
Yes, but a big part of the reason for that is that the whole system is only 15% white and a lot of the most affluent white people either put their kids in private school or leave for the suburbs. Even if you could achieve a perfect distribution of races across all public schools, so that each school was 15% white, I'm not sure what that would achieve, and you'd never get that anyway because a big chunk of those white people would just leave the system.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 22 December 2019 01:53 (four years ago) link
Private school should be banned (cool radical belief)
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Sunday, 22 December 2019 04:07 (four years ago) link
some Stanford study on diversity benefitting students
can you link to this?
― flopson, Sunday, 22 December 2019 04:56 (four years ago) link
tbh I'm not sure which study or whether I'm even remembering correctly that it was stanford. DOE officials mentioned some study done a few years ago in a meeting as the basis for the diversity plans.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 22 December 2019 05:03 (four years ago) link
so, I'm still not going to come out against callout or cancel culture, because I feel it isn't inherently good or bad, but ultimately comes down to how it is used. but incidents like this really make me averse to it: https://www.thewrap.com/kobe-bryant-dead-msnbc-n-word-alison-morris/
a friend shared this with me yesterday when the Kobe news was breaking, and I braced myself for what I thought was going to be a low-level affiliate broadcaster somehow letting an epithet fly on air. and I didn't hear it the first time, and I listened two more times, and it sounded like "nakers" to me. this was hours before she came out with her clarifying statement saying that this was exactly what she said - not being a sports reporter, accidentally started to say Knicks, and caught herself and combined the two.
nonetheless, there's a massive campaign of over 50,000 on social media trying to get her fired from her job, as well as harassing her on the internet. some are criticizing those who have stated they didn't hear an epithet, as if we're supposed to pretend we heard something we didn't.
I can't blame anybody in this hostile political climate for being anxious when they think they hear an epithet on live tv, regardless of whether she said it or not. but calmer heads aren't prevailing, and many are doubling down even when being told "you know, maybe this isn't what she said". and this is resulting in someone's livelihood being threatened as well as a harassment campaign on Twitter already underway.
I've never made any excuse for someone who has run afoul of human decency, whether it be racism, homophobia, etc, but this just makes me feel sick because there's certainly 'reasonable doubt' but everybody is pouncing.
― ... that's Traore! (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 03:43 (four years ago) link
a lot of that is pain about kobe dying and trying to take it out on an easy target
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 04:00 (four years ago) link
and that is a good point, I don't want to discount that by any means.
― ... that's Traore! (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 04:02 (four years ago) link
there was definitely a wide range of emotions with it - one of my best friends told me it outright ruined his day.
when you don't have a functioning system for holding people accountable for their words and deeds it's not terribly surprising that people will take enforcement of social norms into their own hands. nor are any of the consequences that follow from that terribly surprising.
― revenge of the jawn (rushomancy), Tuesday, 28 January 2020 04:58 (four years ago) link
house music: i'm perfectly happy if you wanna play the same beat over and over for an hour, but *please* spare me the single vocal line repeated every five fucking seconds
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 4 February 2020 01:13 (four years ago) link
why waste your time you know you're gonna be mine you know you're gonna be mine you know you're gonna be mine i'm gonna get you baybeh i'm gonna get you yes i am
― i am a horse girl (map), Tuesday, 4 February 2020 01:15 (four years ago) link
everybody got on the deck ten minutes ago goddammit
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 4 February 2020 01:16 (four years ago) link
also the deckdeckdeckdeck
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 4 February 2020 01:18 (four years ago) link
show trials and/or summary execution for prople who bring Wasabi (omnipresent “Japanese” takeaway place, not the paste) on public transport
― hyds (gyac), Monday, 24 February 2020 17:08 (four years ago) link
feeling very "don't tell me wtf to do" lately. also: plagues happen and they're the wildfires of humanity. also: as someone whose parents are garbage i can't help but feel we could do with some thinning in that demo.
― i am a horse girl (map), Sunday, 15 March 2020 23:19 (four years ago) link
i love my parents and my grandmother and am currently struggling to convince them to take this seriously
― flopson, Sunday, 15 March 2020 23:35 (four years ago) link
feeling visceral anger at 'boomer remover' puts me at odds with map but is equally uncool and conservative idk
― strangely hookworm but they manage ream shoegaze poetry (imago), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 22:11 (four years ago) link
at least map is being cold-eyed and sincere, making light of it is the greater aesthetic sin
― strangely hookworm but they manage ream shoegaze poetry (imago), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 22:13 (four years ago) link
'boomer remover' is annoying, yes, it's clearly the 'silent gen-eraser'
― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 22:21 (four years ago) link
i honestly see nothing positive but the possibility that a few people at the top are going to die.
― i am a horse girl (map), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 22:23 (four years ago) link
People who steal hand sanitizers from hospital? Jail them. Fuck them for endangering vulnerable people.
― gramsci in your surplice (gyac), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 22:29 (four years ago) link
my buddy is a nurse at a pediatric oncology unit and said that they have had to start searching the medical staff for masks and sanitizer on the way out the door because they were running out. This was five weeks ago!
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 17 March 2020 23:38 (four years ago) link
i have actually been really surprised at how fundamentally competent the us government response to the pandemic has been. oh, don't get me wrong, it's not been adequate, but i'm not sure a truly adequate response was necessarily in the realm of possibility. i guess really i'm surprised at the number of people who actually know what they're doing still left in the government after three years of a racist idiot calling the shots. this is even more noteworthy when compared to the uk government response, which has, from what little i can tell, been the complete and utter failure i was sort of expecting the american federal response to be.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 20 March 2020 13:14 (four years ago) link
xpost I couldn't find n95 masks back in january without it being a price gouge on amazon. I don't know what they were thinking by not starting manufacture of them right away.
― Yerac, Friday, 20 March 2020 13:18 (four years ago) link
I think they were all just like “oh, this must be someone else’s problem”
― Karl Malone, Friday, 20 March 2020 19:54 (four years ago) link
This global crisis should be handled individually by all the governors. This global crisis is a perfect fit for 50 different state governments to handle
― Karl Malone, Friday, 20 March 2020 19:55 (four years ago) link
handling thing state by state does make a lot of sense. i wonder if some states do a better job of quarantining than others if there might be closed state borders set up at some pt
― Mordy, Friday, 20 March 2020 20:13 (four years ago) link
states have a role to play (a leading role, even!) but this is exactly the kind of situation that is best suited for federal oversight
― Karl Malone, Friday, 20 March 2020 20:41 (four years ago) link
in some ways the shelter in place orders' definition of essential businesses should be taken to heart after the pandemic has passed. The non-essential workers should take up useful occupations. At least 10% should become plumbers and another 10% should become structural engineers.
― sarahell, Saturday, 21 March 2020 03:36 (four years ago) link
The government is still hiring.
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 21 March 2020 04:00 (four years ago) link
thinking of applying at FEMA, for real. the writing is on the wall for my current job
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 21 March 2020 16:24 (four years ago) link
kinda feeling pretty good about my current career, which is basically: "helping people fill out forms in order to get money / reduce the amount of money they have to pay the government" and navigating bureaucracy, in general ...
― sarahell, Saturday, 21 March 2020 17:22 (four years ago) link
re: state vs federal on coronavirus:
As hospitals prepare for a flood of desperately ill patients unable to breathe on their own, mechanical ventilators have become the single most important piece of equipment that can mean the difference between life and death.Now, with American hospitals facing a grave shortage of the vital devices, the Big Three automakers, small engineering firms, software designers and medical equipment manufacturers are rushing to figure out ways to produce more of them. But President Trump has so far declined to use powers that public health experts say could make a real difference in getting more ventilators to places that need them the most — right now.What is really needed, a number of public health experts and former government officials say, is for Washington to take control of the nation’s existing ventilator supply. Because peak coronavirus infections will hit cities and regions at different times in the coming months, a centralized federal effort could send unused machines to hospitals that need them most.“This is a national crisis,” said Frank Kendall, who served as under secretary of defense for acquisition and logistics in the Obama administration. “In a time of scarcity, you can’t leave it up to companies and governors to manage it themselves.”
Now, with American hospitals facing a grave shortage of the vital devices, the Big Three automakers, small engineering firms, software designers and medical equipment manufacturers are rushing to figure out ways to produce more of them. But President Trump has so far declined to use powers that public health experts say could make a real difference in getting more ventilators to places that need them the most — right now.
What is really needed, a number of public health experts and former government officials say, is for Washington to take control of the nation’s existing ventilator supply. Because peak coronavirus infections will hit cities and regions at different times in the coming months, a centralized federal effort could send unused machines to hospitals that need them most.
“This is a national crisis,” said Frank Kendall, who served as under secretary of defense for acquisition and logistics in the Obama administration. “In a time of scarcity, you can’t leave it up to companies and governors to manage it themselves.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/health/ventilators-coronavirus.html
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 01:12 (four years ago) link
What is really needed, a number of public health experts and former government officials say, is for Washington to take control of the nation’s existing ventilator supply.
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Thursday, 26 March 2020 01:42 (four years ago) link
we should just put a big asterisk on the 2016-present era that whenever we recommend that "washington" or congress or the white house do something, it means not the crazy fascist ones
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 01:45 (four years ago) link
“we meant the dc government, not the federal one”
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 26 March 2020 01:51 (four years ago) link
For anyone who thinks "we can afford to lose some olds," we could still easily lose anywhere from a few hundred thousand to a couple million working age adults in the US alone based on what current death rates by age look like.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 26 March 2020 03:02 (four years ago) link
Are you talking to map?
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 26 March 2020 04:32 (four years ago) link
“People might get the misinterpretation you’re just going to lift everything up,” Dr. Fauci said, explaining Mr. Trump’s impatience to jump-start the economy and tell Americans they could resume everyday life. “That’s not going to happen,” Dr. Fauci said. “It’s going to be looking at the data” in regions of the country where there was not an obvious outbreak of the virus.As a practical matter, however, Mr. Trump does not have the power to decide whether the country can reopen. He can issue federal guidelines, but the decision of whether to return to business as usual is up to each state.
As a practical matter, however, Mr. Trump does not have the power to decide whether the country can reopen. He can issue federal guidelines, but the decision of whether to return to business as usual is up to each state.
you know, uh, maybe the states should actually take the lead then. jfc shit is bleak
― Karl Malone, Friday, 27 March 2020 04:24 (four years ago) link
Are they not doing that? Inslee told us today to prepare for an extension of the stay home directive beyond the initial two weeks.
― silby, Friday, 27 March 2020 04:35 (four years ago) link
Sorry about other states I guess :/
Anyway why is this in the uncool conservative belief thread I’m real confused
― silby, Friday, 27 March 2020 04:36 (four years ago) link
i'm replying to an upthread conversation i was having (mostly with myself, heh!) about the appropriate role of state vs federal in responding to coronavirus
― Karl Malone, Friday, 27 March 2020 04:40 (four years ago) link
Maybe the states can nullify the virus
― silby, Friday, 27 March 2020 04:44 (four years ago) link
This is where I feel sorry for poor people in the stupider states. Poor people in California actually have it better rn. We aren't getting back to business / normal any time soon.
― sarahell, Friday, 27 March 2020 15:34 (four years ago) link
that was the issue that got the 4 GOP senators so riled up - that the poorest people might end up actually being slightly poor, for 4 months
― Karl Malone, Friday, 27 March 2020 15:37 (four years ago) link
because they care so much about poor people? wait what?
― sarahell, Friday, 27 March 2020 15:52 (four years ago) link
life begins at conception and ends at 150% of the median income
― Karl Malone, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:12 (four years ago) link
tattoos are absurd
none of them improve on the actual human body, 95% of them are risible, the other 5% are like if you wore your favorite t-shirt every day forever
it's almost hot that you are willing to accept pain for yr beliefs, but much less so when it's mistranslated kanji or a 'druidic' wreath
― mookieproof, Sunday, 5 April 2020 06:11 (four years ago) link
idk they’re kinda hot
― flopson, Sunday, 5 April 2020 08:36 (four years ago) link
I also do not understand the appeal of tattoos on any level, but I accept that it comes down to me finding them very aesthetically unappealing and most people not sharing that taste. curious to see if the widespread popularity fades for some future generation or if it’s just what humans do now.
― iatee, Sunday, 5 April 2020 15:48 (four years ago) link
kinda with flopson and kind of ambivalent, they definitely are part of a mainstream drift of fashion now and that's bound to travel up and down
― Kier today, Dom tomorrow (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 5 April 2020 15:50 (four years ago) link
i mean like all fashion in its broadest sense their signification is way broader than what the wearers might intend
― Kier today, Dom tomorrow (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 5 April 2020 15:52 (four years ago) link
I prefer to think of my body as a perpetual blank slate, but I don't mind them on others.
― Publius Covidius Naso (pomenitul), Sunday, 5 April 2020 15:52 (four years ago) link
i sorta like them tho even if they weren't forbidden by the torah i might still be wary of getting one bc of the permanence issue
― Mordy, Sunday, 5 April 2020 15:54 (four years ago) link
will always want KANT and HUME knuckles
― Kier today, Dom tomorrow (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 5 April 2020 15:54 (four years ago) link
HALE and PACE ftw.
― Did somebody just say eat? (Tom D.), Sunday, 5 April 2020 16:26 (four years ago) link
The permanence is... kinda the point? As well as the possibility of regret.
So when anti-ink ppl say "but it's permanent" and "you might regret it", pro-ink ppl are all like, "yeah, and yeah." Part of the appeal is making a commitment that is known to be not easily reversible, and that one may come to regret.
In that respect it is not unlike marriage and having children. (Not to trivialize, it's just that some of the same arguments can be made for and against lots of things.)
― cuomo money, cuomo problems (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:07 (four years ago) link
(Disclosure: I have one buttcheek that says "Washington Bullets 4eva!" and one buttcheek that says "L.A. Rams 4eva!" I won't tell you where I have the Baltimore Colts logo, though, that's private.)
― cuomo money, cuomo problems (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:10 (four years ago) link
My regret right now that the tattoo I was going to get of a medieval plague amulet got canceled because of a global pandemic
― joygoat, Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:12 (four years ago) link
My beef with them is that they create a false sense of commitment. It's a cheap knockoff at best.
― Publius Covidius Naso (pomenitul), Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:15 (four years ago) link
Truly committed people have themselves branded with hot irons.
― cuomo money, cuomo problems (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:21 (four years ago) link
It's the other way around, but jest away. Then again, I've no room to talk, being married.
― Publius Covidius Naso (pomenitul), Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:23 (four years ago) link
I'm broadly pro, in that they tell a story of a particular point in your life and that kind of relative permanence is pretty unique as a marker. Not a fan of sleeves, just because footballers.
I don't have one/any as yet - mostly because I can't fully decide what to get and that feels like a big deal. Almost fully repudiating what I wrote above, but whatevs.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Sunday, 5 April 2020 19:23 (four years ago) link
― mookieproof
I don't have strong opinions on tattoos, but rofl @ this.
― Deflatormouse, Sunday, 5 April 2020 20:36 (four years ago) link
my experience of tattoos is that people from the same school year as me (born 78/79) mostly don't have tattoos but by the 80/81 cohort everyone seems to have at least one, so I don't hate them but feel a bit weird about them and wouldn't get one as it would seem like an affectation on me.
― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 5 April 2020 21:10 (four years ago) link
― joygoat
some of my friends were sad that the release of "the last of us 2" was cancelled, hotly anticipated post-apocalyptic videogame delayed on account of apocalypse
in portland tattoo culture is pretty big, i used to think it was kind of funny that all my brothers had beards and tattoos and were way more suited to the portland lifestyle than i was but then i came out as trans so :shrug:
― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 5 April 2020 23:30 (four years ago) link
dogpiling on celebrities and rich people every time they donate money to charity is shitty, who cares if it's only 0.01% of their net worth it's still helpful and it's more than most of 'em do
*massive exception for the Jeff Bezos/Elon Musk forms of "charity" that equate to bad PR stunts
― frogbs, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:06 (four years ago) link
tattoos are fine I just think it's weird that so many people get horrible quality dasharezone art permanently on their body
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 6 April 2020 19:14 (four years ago) link
xp it’s totally irrational and dumb but I kind of get a little peeved when the rich people announce their donations themselves, especially on like instagram or something. makes it seem more about them and what swell generous ppl they are rather than the cause. I know, I’m terrible
― brimstead, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:18 (four years ago) link
yeah it brings attention to the cause
― brimstead, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:19 (four years ago) link
imo dasharez0ne art is a much better choice than 90% of tattoos
― mh, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:20 (four years ago) link
my conservative belief is that announcing your charity publicly is gauche but at the same time I get the impulse to vilify people who are worth billions who donate the equivalent of a buck fifty to a cause
― mh, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:21 (four years ago) link
if someone's worth $100,000,000 that doesn't necessarily mean they've got that much in the bank exactly
― frogbs, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:24 (four years ago) link
wow never heard that one before
― mh, Monday, 6 April 2020 19:24 (four years ago) link
untrue my $100 mil is in a giant safe, banded bills
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 6 April 2020 19:59 (four years ago) link
don't even think about it Clooney
lol I got a sponsored tweet by some financial advice blog that said something like "tips that millionaires follow that few others do" and it had a picture of a wooden box with a bunch of rolled up $20s in it
so now I assume millionaires all have one crappy wooden cigar box full of rolled twenties in their home somewhere
― mh, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:02 (four years ago) link
Tip #1: pay sex workers in cash.
― Yerac, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:08 (four years ago) link
btw the reason why this irks me is because rich people are some of the most sensitive people on the planet and you know there are people like oh, I don't know, Tom Brady who say to themselves things like oh I wish I could donate but the media would be so unfair to me :(
― frogbs, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:08 (four years ago) link
i usually give anonymously for that same reason, to avoid the media coverage
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:12 (four years ago) link
they are so fucking UNFAIR sometimes!
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Monday, 6 April 2020 20:13 (four years ago) link
i treat my employees terribly by paying them the minimal amount + minimal benefits allowed by law so when I do donate it's a more pleasurable surprise for everyone.
― Yerac, Monday, 6 April 2020 20:15 (four years ago) link
― Yerac, Monday, April 6, 2020 1:08 PM (one week ago)
depends on the sex worker tbh. Having verifiable income (even venmo is better than cash in this regard) can help said sex worker do normal person things like, get a credit card, obtain a mortgage or car loan ... obviously you would not want to put "for hand job" in the note field of the transaction.
― sarahell, Monday, 13 April 2020 18:16 (four years ago) link
the whole tax system is lined up against cash in hand for manual labour
― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 13 April 2020 18:18 (four years ago) link
whose tax system?
― sarahell, Monday, 13 April 2020 18:19 (four years ago) link
ok, that half of the joke needs a bit of work
― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 13 April 2020 18:20 (four years ago) link
Re tattoos i feel like i never understood the appeal until recently - they don’t have anything to do with the art itself - it’s just that permanent pain / scratch marks on your body are a sex / death drive stand in. or like flopson said they’re kind of sexy. I’ll probably get some bad tattoos in the next few years. I want a raven.
― i am a horse girl (map), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 05:50 (four years ago) link
i'd get one but i'm afraid it'll blow a hole straight through my limb
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 06:00 (four years ago) link
permanent pain / scratch marks on your body are a sex / death drive stand in.
yeah, though i remember a friend's roommate a while back did a stick and poke tattoo of pissing Calvin right above his dick
― sarahell, Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:41 (four years ago) link
educated white people should be forbidden from using terms like "cop" and "grip" to mean purchasing recorded music, especially that produced by other educated white people
― sarahell, Friday, 1 May 2020 14:23 (three years ago) link
Son, you cop that new Nonesuch mixtape? That shit slaps, deadass.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 1 May 2020 14:35 (three years ago) link
gonna grip all the latest erstwhile ish ... just no
― sarahell, Friday, 1 May 2020 14:36 (three years ago) link
same with yassssss imo
― i am a horse girl (map), Friday, 1 May 2020 15:59 (three years ago) link
educated white people should be forbidden from getting stick and poke tattoos of pissing Calvin right above their dick
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 1 May 2020 17:57 (three years ago) link
i feel like there have been certain posts on other threads of late that would be very suited to this thread
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 1 May 2020 18:06 (three years ago) link
the joe biden thread you mean??
― groovemaaan, Friday, 1 May 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
educated white people should stop getting tattoos of pissing biden right above their dick
― Evan, Friday, 1 May 2020 18:20 (three years ago) link
I'm confused about cop or grip having melanin or educational limits.
Yassssss is a sign of pure dementia for anyone but actual drag queens. And I don't believe that because I disapprove of "cultural appropriation" or anything like that. It just sounds like a bloated exhalation.
― 🔫 (peace, man), Friday, 1 May 2020 19:40 (three years ago) link
educated white people should just generally stop it
― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 1 May 2020 19:45 (three years ago) link
education?
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 1 May 2020 19:45 (three years ago) link
man that's a really harsh thing to say about avant-garde polish jazz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yass_(music)
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 1 May 2020 19:46 (three years ago) link
have always preferred the old-skool version myself:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjD3EVC1-zU
― No mean feat. DaBaby (breastcrawl), Friday, 1 May 2020 20:29 (three years ago) link
I will make an exception for the cat in this Vine as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRNU_2Jj_oo
― 🔫 (peace, man), Friday, 1 May 2020 20:42 (three years ago) link
― 🔫 (peace, man), Friday, May 1, 2020 8:40 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
reveal your uncool conservative dad posters here
― i am a horse girl (map), Friday, 1 May 2020 21:28 (three years ago) link
All of my beliefs are cool and unconservative.
― pomenitul, Friday, 1 May 2020 21:29 (three years ago) link
the trend of calling middle-aged white women "Karen" is old fashioned sexism in the guise of intersectional wokeness
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 13:31 (three years ago) link
TS: X Æ A-12 vs Karen
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 13:47 (three years ago) link
― tokyo rosemary, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 13:55 (three years ago) link
whoops looks like we've got a karen here
― Mordy, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 13:58 (three years ago) link
it totally is. it's just another word for "shrew" but they tack on the "white, cis-gendered" qualifiers to make it seem more respectable. it's slur laundering.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:10 (three years ago) link
no it isnt
― methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:16 (three years ago) link
i think the meme i have seen is that it's a nicer way of saying cunt.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:16 (three years ago) link
i think there has already been an analysis of the nuanced difference betweens beckys and karens.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:18 (three years ago) link
Which one is Anne Frank again
― Microbes oft teem (wins), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link
Anne with an E.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link
beckys are younger i think and supposedly ditzy and don't comprehend social justice issues. karens are entitled moms who drive suv's and ask to speak to the manager.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link
you can't argue about uncool conservative beliefs in here this is the oh never mind
― clap for content-providers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:20 (three years ago) link
i just think stereotypes aren't the way. it's not as if these terms are only being used by marginalized people or whatever. everyone online is gleefully saying women are annoying--oh i'm sorry, karens are annoying
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:24 (three years ago) link
This is one of those words where the directionality matters - it really depends on *who* is saying it.
"Karen" was invented by Black women to describe a very specific raced and gendered dynamic, where white women invoke white privilege over Black women, e.g. "demanding to speak to the manager, because they do not believe that a Black woman has authority". In these circumstances, it is not sexist, it is a useful tool describing a common power dynamic.
As soon as other people (most often cis white men) started using the term, it just became generalised to mean "any uppity white woman aspiring to authority that would go unnoticed in a white man". In this usage, yes, it is sexist, in fact it's not only sexist, but it's used by white men to point fingers at white privilege being something ~white women do~ to obscure their own white privilege.
It's complicated, but tl;dr - cis white men ruin everything.
― Branwell with an N, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:32 (three years ago) link
vox points to a different origin for karen.
The “Karen” meme has multiple origins, each one using the idea in slightly different ways. But one of the most prominent uses developed on Reddit, thanks to a redditor known for posting amusingly bitter invectives about his ex-wife — posts so amusing, they inspired a high school student to make an entire subreddit, r/FuckYouKaren, devoted to turning his saga into a meme.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 14:34 (three years ago) link
It does seem a little mean toward actual people named Karen.
― jmm, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:04 (three years ago) link
it just became generalised to mean "any uppity white woman aspiring to authority that would go unnoticed in a white man"
that's a good point. is there an equivalent name for men who frequently ask to speak to the manager and that kind of shit?
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:44 (three years ago) link
they get called karen too now from what i have seen. branwell is good for taking the time to explain.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:47 (three years ago) link
I hope my sister never hears about it.
― Angry Question Time Man's Flute Club Band (Tom D.), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
She is pretty uppity at the best of times.
― Angry Question Time Man's Flute Club Band (Tom D.), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:51 (three years ago) link
*updates Karens in real life log*
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
I’ve never met a(n actual person named) Karen tbh.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, May 5, 2020 6:31 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is more "reveal your joyless woke beliefs" here than anything
― COVID and the Gang (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:54 (three years ago) link
I know two Karens and they are both very nice and not like Karens at all.
― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:56 (three years ago) link
they exist!
i will say that i think the worst outcomes for irl older Karens are:
1) they actually are "Karens", and they are forced to confront the idea that the kind of behavior being lampooned/criticized is so widespread that it has spread into a global meme that just happens to be attached to the name "Karen". a real humdinger for these irl Karens. they will endure long nights of the soul. (or not!)
2) people whose names are Karen, but in no way resemble the caricature of "Karen". for these poor Karens, they will have to endure the indignity of someone occasionally saying "Karen! ahaha! oops! not you Karen! ahah!". this reminds me of my childhood, when lots of people called me Zack the lego maniac, even though i didn't really have legos (more of a k'nex' guy myself). boy was that annoying!
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 16:57 (three years ago) link
My grade-school crush was a Karen! Branwell your post was succinct and perfect!
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:00 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plRa2kz9k1c
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:07 (three years ago) link
It's only in the US anyway, Karens over here have nothing to worry about.
― Angry Question Time Man's Flute Club Band (Tom D.), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:08 (three years ago) link
some of my best exes are karens : /
at least their name isn't slang for a toilet, i guess
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:09 (three years ago) link
i went to gradeschool with a Karen who grew up to be a "Karen" based on what I know about her.i know a NYC based Karen who is not a Karen and finds it funny when people call her "Karen" derogatorily
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:09 (three years ago) link
i do wonder if there is a reverse correlation between "common white girl names from the 70s and 80s used to describe horrible white women in the contemporary era" and "common white girl names from the 70s and 80s that were used in popular songs from the era" ... like the Karens and Beckys dodged bullets growing up, avoiding being mockingly serenaded as children, unlike the poor Amandas, Sarahs, and Jennys ... and now, Karens and Beckys, it's your fucking turn!!
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
(I forget the Dianes ... sorry Dianes, you too had it rough in the 80s)
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:28 (three years ago) link
more of a specific instance, but never forget what Joe Blows went through. that wasn't fair to ya, Blows!
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:34 (three years ago) link
This thread has gone to the dogs. Why would you spend so much time discussing this name? You guys are a bunch of Karen tarriers.
― 🔫 (peace, man), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:34 (three years ago) link
and of course, above all, Joey Corona we are all thinking about you right now
i always worry about someone with my first and last name doing something awful and then the name becomes infamous
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:35 (three years ago) link
but re, this being a "humorless woke belief," i don't think so. i'm defending 'karens' against the scolding hoardes of wokes
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
I could re-write Nick Cave's "John Finn's wife" to be about you treesh
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:41 (three years ago) link
I never knew calling out sexism was a tenet of conservatism
― brimstead, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:43 (three years ago) link
i think the criticism, treesh, is that there are so many things jn the world that also aren't quite fair. the psychological damage to irl "karens" is probably pretty low on the list
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:44 (three years ago) link
or at least, that's my (mild) criticism
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:45 (three years ago) link
― Joey Corona (Euler), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
xp, well that's why i haven't started a national campaign to stamp out this prejudice. i just think it's a bit hypocritcal for progressives to fall in love with stereotypes about shrill women who complain too much.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:51 (three years ago) link
i can see that, but also understand where it came from (see Branwell's post)
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:56 (three years ago) link
i hate people who speak down to service workers but it's not only women that do that
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:58 (three years ago) link
i don't think an unfunny stereotype helps, really. even if it's "punching up" sometimes. that's the conservative part of my post.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:59 (three years ago) link
anyone have a cite for Branwell's etymology, the origins I see give the redditor complaining about his ex and a Dane Cook joke.
― by the light of the burning Citroën, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 17:59 (three years ago) link
I have seen evidence that "Karen" has already made the jump from woke Twitterites to broke Facebook whites.
― 🔫 (peace, man), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:00 (three years ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, May 5, 2020 10:58 AM (fifty-eight seconds ago)
you don't say???
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:01 (three years ago) link
i used to see it as Carols and then it mass stuck to Karens around the peak of all the videos of white women calling the cops.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:04 (three years ago) link
i think we can all agree that stock jokes about "Carlos" would not be appreciated on the left
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:06 (three years ago) link
ppl have been using generic names as pejoratives for a long time and were using a few different old white ppl names for a while before it coalesced around 'karen' and got used much more widely. i have heard ppl use kevin and stephen and susan, almost anything works if you say it the right way, bc it's really all about tone
― The Cognitive Peasant (ogmor), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:06 (three years ago) link
Really? I feel like BBQ Becky (et al) peaked at least a year (if not two) before Karen got coined
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:07 (three years ago) link
even just using people's actual name can be ironically disrespectful and cutting, there's a lot of grey area
― The Cognitive Peasant (ogmor), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:07 (three years ago) link
Every Dick, Tom and Harry...
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:07 (three years ago) link
"barbecue becky" is at least alliterative. that one is approved.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:08 (three years ago) link
There's different ones in different countries - not surprisingly.
― Angry Question Time Man's Flute Club Band (Tom D.), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
i thought bbq becky was a leftover from becky with the good hair and it all segued from any old bland white name---> to karens.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
the Karens and Beckys dodged bullets growing up
My friend Becky who was in middle school when "Baby Got Back" came out begs to differ!
― dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
all the white women calling the cops had alliterative nicknames. that was the idea. xpost
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link
wait there was an actual "barbecue becky," a woman who called to complain about a black family barbecuing in a park. (charcoal grills weren't permitted in the park). her photo got out and got plastered all over memes. not sure how i feel about that.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link
BBQ Becky was "Becky" because it was alliterative. Most of the sequels to BBQ Becky were also alliterative, aka Permit Patty
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link
yeah the becky in the sir mixalot was brought up in a becky/karen article about original becky.
we've probably done "should non-famous people be shamed on the internet?" a dozen times in this thread alone already
― dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:11 (three years ago) link
the becky from baby got back isn't white
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:11 (three years ago) link
and also is fictional
defending bad white women is indeed conservative.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link
archetypes are reductive, no need to be such a treesh about it (sorry treesh)
― The Cognitive Peasant (ogmor), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link
xp BBQ Becky incident happened about 10 blocks from where I live ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, May 5, 2020 11:10 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink
feel pretty good about it personally
― COVID and the Gang (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:13 (three years ago) link
???the becky in the sir mix a lot video isn't white???
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:13 (three years ago) link
― treeship., Tuesday, May 5, 2020 2:11 PM (forty seconds ago)
I'll go check but this is wildly wrong iirc
― dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:13 (three years ago) link
― dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, May 5, 2020 11:09 AM (two minutes ago)
uh, that song came out in 1992 ... my post was about 70s and 80s popular music ... your friend is a millenial, and most of the stereotypical Karens are Gen-X women, so ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
oh good, it took only 1 second to confirm that she most certainly is
― dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
treeship...
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
same with donkey dick dale
― let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
maybe he thinks brunettes aren't white?
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:15 (three years ago) link
in the lyrics. unless "becky" is the addressee and not the girl they're talking about.
Oh, my, God Becky, look at her buttIt is so big, she looks likeOne of those rap guys' girlfriends....I mean gross, lookShe's just so, black
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:15 (three years ago) link
xp to sarahell, I only meant popular culture came for the Beckys well before 2010 or w/e
― dip to dup (rob), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:16 (three years ago) link
i've never seen the video for that. i cannot be held responsible for music videos made before the year 2000.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:16 (three years ago) link
― Yerac, Tuesday, May 5, 2020 6:14 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink
― 🔫 (peace, man), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:16 (three years ago) link
xp. becky is the addressee.
jesus treesh.
― COVID and the Gang (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link
i cannot be held responsible for any of these white boys allowed on the internet.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link
oh my god, look at that post
― clap for content-providers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:18 (three years ago) link
sorry i never did a close reading of that song before. i'll dust off my old cleanth brooks textbooks tonight to sharpen my skills.
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:18 (three years ago) link
oh my, god look, at that post
― 🔫 (peace, man), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:22 (three years ago) link
now do a girl named Suzy.
― by the light of the burning Citroën, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link
genuinely shocked this hasn't been posted priorhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcKG4EJ6rsQ
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 19:04 (three years ago) link
ogmor is correct, until fairly recently this meme was just any generic white lady name, “jeez Debbie” or whatever, which is why tracing it back to dane cook or some random on reddit is off the mark
― Microbes oft teem (wins), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 19:27 (three years ago) link
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShittyLifeProTips/comments/62cw4z/lpt_avoid_the_pain_of_a_messy_divorce_by_not/
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/7lz4ar/what_is_this_fuck_you_karen_thing/
I don't know that looks like convincing evidence of the origin to me
― Evan, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 20:52 (three years ago) link
That’s literally just a bunch of dudes repeating “I hate my ex” and has no connection to the “type” exemplified in the memeThe name is the same yes
― Microbes oft teem (wins), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:06 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wfYIMyS_dI
― treeship., Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:14 (three years ago) link
The first link is what I thought was cited as the inspiration for the name Karen being chosen. But looking again it's not from the same user most point to, so never mind.
The second is someone asking about it some months after the snowball started rolling down the hill. So at least that kind of puts a timestamp on it. Always thought it was a reddit thing.
― Evan, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:16 (three years ago) link
lol I know a man in his early 40s who definitely exhibits Karen-like behavior and for that, among other reasons, we’ll joke about “pulling a Brian” when doing something he’d donice guy to hang out with until the moment he asks something mortifying of a person in our vicinity then it’s a race to cut him off mid-sentence, though
― mh, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
names have been changed to protect the man-Karen
― mh, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:21 (three years ago) link
🎶but I do knowwwww man-Karen🎶
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:33 (three years ago) link
College shouldn't be free.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:37 (three years ago) link
(I don't know if this is really a conservative opinion because I think public college tuition should be a third of what it is now and that state government support should make up most of the difference)
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:38 (three years ago) link
(It's definitely uncool though)
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:39 (three years ago) link
You’re right, free Universities are where it’s at.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:39 (three years ago) link
i saw Ted Cruz called a Karen online because of his need to criticize the 1619 Project.
― Yerac, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:45 (three years ago) link
I feel like I missed something there, Andrew Sullivan was throwing a shit fit about it, but I couldn't really understand
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 22:52 (three years ago) link
some people think america is good but actually, it is bad
― silby, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 22:57 (three years ago) link
"don't call attention to the genocidal ravages of colonialism and chattel slavery! america's good"
― silby, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 22:58 (three years ago) link
hmm, why would a right-wing piece of shit not like writing regarding the legacy of slavery
― COVID and the Gang (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 23:08 (three years ago) link
Any argument against the 1619 Project should be met with fire.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 23:09 (three years ago) link
“Karen” was a term created *specifically by Black women* to talk about white women’s interpersonal + state violence against us and our communities: calling the police on us for getting coffee, threatening to have us fired, talking down to us at work (where we’re now “essential”).— alicia sanchez gill. (@aliciasanchez) April 5, 2020
― Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 07:45 (three years ago) link
Per Luvvie Ajayi, the progression is Becky > Karen > Susan.
https://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/2020/04/caucasity-karen-becky-susan.html
― Rodent of usual size (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 11:27 (three years ago) link
it's interesting that treesh identifies this as a conservative opinion bc it treats gen x liberal centrist feminism as conservative, which for rhetorical/dialectical purposes it often is, and then i saw this https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXVlEMdVcAETEiB?format=jpg&name=900x900
― The Cognitive Peasant (ogmor), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 13:25 (three years ago) link
tbf noone is ever mean to posh men
― clap for content-providers (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 14:52 (three years ago) link
most men (esp. cis-het white men) are over-sensitive to criticism and need to "man up" -- if they received the same privilege push-back as white women do on the reg, they would either cry, try to cancel the internet, or else shoot a bunch of people
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 17:19 (three years ago) link
― El Tomboto, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 17:36 (three years ago) link
a challenger approaches
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXW_wrpU0AAEV1e?format=png&name=240x240
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 20:13 (three years ago) link
is she a jogger y or n?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 20:50 (three years ago) link
I have seen evidence that "Karen" has already made the jump from woke Twitterites to broke Facebook whites.― 🔫 (peace, man), Tuesday, May 5, 2020 6:00 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink
― 🔫 (peace, man), Tuesday, May 5, 2020 6:00 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink
"Karen" definitely means the person who narced on you for not wearing a mask and standing too close to people out in public now.
― peace, man, Monday, 25 May 2020 19:04 (three years ago) link
according to who? you mean on facebook?
― Evan, Monday, 25 May 2020 20:30 (three years ago) link
Pretty sure it now means absolutely nothing coherent
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 25 May 2020 20:32 (three years ago) link
What is this "Karen" thing?
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 25 May 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
I mean of course xp
― silby, Monday, 25 May 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
the life cycle of slang:
black trans women invent a slang term to mean something specific
white gays co-opt it, bringing it into the mainstream while diluting its original meaning
white people in general exhaust all signification of the term completely in the course of two weeks
the Charmin twitter says "bae" or whatever
― silby, Monday, 25 May 2020 20:38 (three years ago) link
I pretty much now will not use any slang I heard recently at all because this process doesn't need my participation
― silby, Monday, 25 May 2020 20:39 (three years ago) link
uncool conservative belief: white people shouldn't use slang terms they just heard b/c it's either misused appropriated black queer/trans slang (bae, woke, Karen, slay, yass) or it's been invented by online white supremacist reactionaries (incel, cuck, simp, SJW)
― silby, Monday, 25 May 2020 20:41 (three years ago) link
that belief isn't uncool, it's poggers
― imago, Monday, 25 May 2020 20:43 (three years ago) link
"white people shouldn't say "woke" or "SJW"' is anything but a conservative belief. There is no conservative belief about what white people should say except "Any suggestion that white people shouldn't say just what they like is the real racism."
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 25 May 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link
My uncool conservative belief is that there is probably very little public health benefit to wearing masks outdoors unless you are going to be in an unusually crowded setting for a long period of time.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 25 May 2020 20:48 (three years ago) link
mask wearing is a signal that you are taking this seriously and are unlikely to get in someone else's face, thus contributing to general social order.
as to the science behind my face bandana, i'm guessing "better than nothing" is likely accurate but - given the available options - the former is likely more important than the latter just now.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 25 May 2020 21:05 (three years ago) link
I don't live in the kind of metropolis where I'm going to bump into six or ten or twenty-five people on sidewalks, yet our county requires us to wear masks in enclosed public spaces.
Wearing the mask outdoors signifies that you care about the social compact.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 25 May 2020 21:10 (three years ago) link
I guess my uncool conservative belief is that I'm skeptical about the whole Karen origin on black twitter thing. I've not heard that anywhere but here. Light research suggests that it came from a reddit user that was complaining about his ex who was literally named Karen and the meme stemmed from that. Maybe a coincidence?
― Evan, Monday, 25 May 2020 22:45 (three years ago) link
― Evan, Monday, May 25, 2020 8:30 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
Yes. Every time a post pops up criticizing the general public for not social distancing, there rises a chorus of "Karen!"
― peace, man, Tuesday, 26 May 2020 12:54 (three years ago) link
I get the social signalling aspect and think it has real value, but where I live, I feel like this is taken care of by the fact that mask-wearing indoors (at least at the grocery store, which is the only place I've been indoors) is universal, even though not mandated by the state.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 14:10 (three years ago) link
my uncool conservative belief is that ppl shouldn’t buy into misogynist stereotypes like “Karen” in the first place
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, 26 May 2020 16:12 (three years ago) link
white feminist is a slur
― no (Left), Wednesday, 27 May 2020 18:38 (three years ago) link
10^9 is a milliard. 10^12 is a billion.
― imago, Thursday, 28 May 2020 19:37 (three years ago) link
ok grandpa
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 28 May 2020 20:02 (three years ago) link
1 x duck is a mallard. 1 x chicken broth is a bullion.
― I bless Claire Danes down in Africa (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 28 May 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
I'm skeptical about the whole Karen origin on black twitter thing
can someone give some more info on the queer/poc origins of karen? i feel like i've been seeing this meme slowly evolve for the past decade on places like r3dd1t
― diamonddave85 (diamonddave85), Thursday, 28 May 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link
my understanding was that it was just an evolution of the "can i speak to the manager haircut" meme
― diamonddave85 (diamonddave85), Thursday, 28 May 2020 21:14 (three years ago) link
― imago, Thursday, May 28, 2020 12:37 PM (two hours ago)
imago start saying "crore" imo
― silby, Thursday, 28 May 2020 21:51 (three years ago) link
lol maybe
― imago, Thursday, 28 May 2020 22:01 (three years ago) link
I just need to say this somewhere without derailing a good thread - I hate the lofty, self-righteous, self-serious rhetorical tone that every single fucking person adopts on twitter and facebook when they talk about BLM. I hate how every single fucking person feels like they need to make a big dramatic speech on it. I guess the "performativeness" is part of what I hate, and that's not even a conservative critique, I just find it really grating when people do that soaring speechifying thing.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:19 (three years ago) link
this is THIS
THAT IS THAT
LISTEN
LEARN
PRAY
WALK
THINK
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:21 (three years ago) link
fwiw social media posts scolding people for not wearing masks are pretty performative, seldom seem interested in persuading people so much as wallowing in their own righteousness. I wear a mask and they still rankle. Tho this might be an US/UK thing, less people obnoxiously proud of not wearing them here.
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 5 June 2020 15:27 (three years ago) link
yeah I find that irritating too - "I WAS JUST AT X PARK AND SO MANY PEOPLE WERE NOT WEARING MASKS!" as if just to say "humanity is doomed by its stupidity and I am above it."
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:30 (three years ago) link
look, i dunno. people are freaked out and frightened and i don't blame anybody for reaching for whatever tools they feel they need even if they're super sanctimonious. better that than nothing.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 5 June 2020 15:57 (three years ago) link
Tracer otm + even the most annoying things on earth can be dismissed if don’t let it aggravate you. Let it roll off of you.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:31 (three years ago) link
agree, which is why I just quarantine such thoughts to thread like this
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:32 (three years ago) link
True. This is the place for it. And these are tough times. Sometimes stress manifests as irritability. Happens to the best of us!!
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:37 (three years ago) link
I instinctively recoil when men avoid belts.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link
second-order recoiling
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:20 (three years ago) link
I'm not even sure this is a conservative belief, but yes, people in protests should be making a lot more of an effort to not be creating COVID superspreading events. It looks like most people are masked but, that's it. Stay far apart, don't yell or sing.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:25 (three years ago) link
most of the people cheering the looting and "expropriation" of private property are privileged white boys who still act like teenagers and use this attitude to further bolster their life choices of not growing up and taking adult responsibilities. The ones that do have "real jobs" all work for other people so they don't really have much responsibility professionally either. Also, they would whine and cry like a toddler if someone stole their prized possessions (e.g. obscure records, film collections, etc.)
― sarahell, Friday, 5 June 2020 17:35 (three years ago) link
I remember someone interviewing an Occupy Wall Street participant. He was holding an iPad 2. The interviewer asked something like, so if it's bad to be a one percenter and have things, why don't you give that iPad to the poor? And the guy was like, um, er, actually what I want is for EVERYBODY to have access to the things of this world... and trailed off.
― i am not throwing away my snot (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
heh this is mostly prompted by one particular dude in my FB feed who I remember several years back throwing a major temper tantrum over a radical collective space deciding to dispose of a huge vintage film editing machine that belonged to said dude because said dude: had not actually used said machine, had not paid rent on the space where the machine was being stored, had not communicated with anyone whether or not his proposed plans for a radical film collective were actually going to happen because he had done/said nothing for months (if not a year). Instead the radical collective space expropriated his private property ... to the dump.
― sarahell, Friday, 5 June 2020 17:43 (three years ago) link
n.b. i was not in any way involved with the above incident. It was not my space.
― sarahell, Friday, 5 June 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
I had to do that once, this idiot dragged an abandoned soda cooler from a liquor store back to our place
― brimstead, Friday, 5 June 2020 17:50 (three years ago) link
I've pretty openly despised the police since I was a teenager but this sudden hardline unequivocal push to abolish the police is...something else. I mean, I totally geddit from an emotional perspective but hey maybe just for a start let's repeal the 2nd first because I don't think we're fully considering who's likely to barge their well-armed way into that cop-less void.
I don't even know if this is uncool-ly conservative, necessarily, but I definitely feel out of step with the mad revolutionary rush of the moment in that particular regard.
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 04:01 (three years ago) link
I've been having some interesting conversations about that lately with people both to the left and right of me. One take I keep hearing is that, at minimum, it's a "negotiating position" like you start with a big ask and work toward something less. I don't totally buy that, because (1) I'm pretty sure most of its advocates don't see it as a negotiating position, and (2) as someone who is involved in a lot of negotiations, it's a lot more nuanced than just "Make really big ask so you can get medium sized thing." I mean, it's right in the sense that you don't start by asking for your end goal (which is what centrist democrats often do, to their own detriment), but it's also not like "I will demand $100 million so that way they will give me $50 million." You have to know "what your case is worth" and you have to be able to convince the other side of what risk they face if they don't accede to your demand (or at least meet you in the middle).
A protest movement mainly has two threats available -- voting and unrest. Will a large city defund its police to avoid rioting? Probably not. Will they do it to avoid getting voted out of office? Not unless you convince them that there are enough voters who will actually vote them out on that issue, which I absolutely do not believe. Jacob Frey knew what he was doing - he knew he faced more risk of getting voted out for saying he would defund the police than for saying he wouldn't.
The other thing is that I have mixed feelings about the communications strategy. I get it on one hand -- #abolishthepolice is catchy and controversial and exciting and will spread. Some of the people who see that and go "What?!" may wind up looking it up and reading more and saying "huh, actually a lot of these ideas sound good." But others are just going to have an absolute kneejerk reaction against it and shut down.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 04:18 (three years ago) link
FTR, I'm all about cutting funds and massive reforms and even farming out most/all police duties to more qualified parties with greater oversight. You show me a workable path toward those ends and I'm sold, 100%. It's when people get on the binary tip and shut down conversation and negotiation that my sold-ness wavers. If you ask whether the mayor of a major American city is willing to defund his police department, what response do you honestly expect? It just feels like the good guys have leverage for a change and it's being squandered by pushing too hard and too quickly into underexplored territory.
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 04:53 (three years ago) link
I appreciate you sharing that, because it does feel like that thing people do when they're at the very height of being against something- they say the solution is the polar opposite full stop. It's the kind of emotionally popular endgame scenario that you have to work backwards to logically justify. And doing that usually involves too many idealistic variables. (Talking specifically about it being taken literally FTR)
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 05:19 (three years ago) link
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 05:20 (three years ago) link
actually not "xp", cause I share OL's discomfort.
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 05:24 (three years ago) link
ah the binary tip
i mean, adrian schoolcraft was just 10 years ago. it hasn't been all that long since the chicago pd had a fucking torture chamber. we are watching police departments across the country beat the shit out of anyone in range. an entire cadre of buffalo american cops refuses to accept that it should be responsible for any of its actions.
and all these cities have democratic mayors, so it's not like voting will make a difference. please delineate your gradual reform plan
― mookieproof, Sunday, 7 June 2020 05:27 (three years ago) link
A loser like me not being able to perfectly delineate a gradual reform plan right now does not prove anything.
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 05:37 (three years ago) link
Mookie you do realize that not only are there primaries, but the primary is pretty much the election is democratic cities, right?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:00 (three years ago) link
Also, the fact that it might be difficult to enact reform doesn’t mean it’s easier to completely abolish the police. It’s almost certainly even harder.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:02 (three years ago) link
of course none of any of which we speak proves anything!
i suspect, however, that it’s a lot easier to talk about reform when the cops look more like you than their victims do.
― mookieproof, Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:19 (three years ago) link
I find it a bit stupefying that OL mentioned repealing the 2nd Amendment in this context. Isn't repealing 2A (a good idea!) a similarly hyperbolic rhetorical gambit used to push for tighter gun control...or maybe it's an extreme political position sure to turn off moderates who would otherwise support some, even many forms of GC? And if meant literally, it would be incredibly difficult to make happen politically. The prospect of seeing the Bill of Rights edited in my lifetime is frankly inconceivable.
A lot of the police reforms that people squeamish about abolition bring up are pretty much the equivalent of "ban bump stocks": a totally milquetoast solution that does nothing to address the larger problem and which will be defied/never implemented anyway.
― dip to dup (rob), Sunday, 7 June 2020 12:21 (three years ago) link
Reading through the twitter thread ShariVari posted in the abolishment thread, I'm realizing my problem is less about being uncool and conservative (as I agree with every single change being proposed) than having rhetorical qualms with that particular phrasing. Contrasted with repeal of the 2nd amendment (which, while admittedly pie in the sky, is quite literally about the end goal of banning all guns), 'abolishment' of the police is, like I said upthread, largely about farming out the necessary functions they're bunglefucking to more appropriate entities. Which from one perspective can be seen as abolishment but from another perspective as something more like radical transformation. It's a nuanced problem and the issue with this particular messaging is that not everyone who's hearing or disseminating the message seems to be picking up on the nuance.
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 13:49 (three years ago) link
My uncool conservative belief (which I think is very cool and not-at-all conservative) is that activists should focus significant attention on removing SCOTUS authority over the terms with which each state (and DC) issue CCWs, if at all. Repealing the 2nd Amendment is a pie-in-the-sky, but allowing each state to self-determine the terms of how people are legally allowed to carry around guns is not.
― DJ Fiona Apple Genius (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:28 (three years ago) link
Long helpful thread on what it means to abolish the police. There may be other legit interpretations of the phrase, but I think this is pretty spot on.
Do you or somebody you know think that #AbolishThePolice is unrealistic? It might be because you haven’t taken the time to understand what it means, the reasons for it, and why it actually makes a lot of sense. [Thread]— Bridget Eileen (@TravelingNun) June 4, 2020
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:31 (three years ago) link
I find threads like that well-meaning but a bit grating. There seems to be this constant assumption that if people don't agree with a left policy idea it must be that they simply haven't thought through what it really means and can't possibly have some differing take on it from their lived experience. I mentioned this in the other thread, but my wife teaches in a high school where they have increasingly tried restorative justice approaches. She says that she likes the practice, but that there have been situations where students were violent and calling in cops was the only thing that worked, and that those students often did not respond to the restorative practices and just continued doing what they were doing. I'm talking about serious bodily harm, broken bones, etc. My wife is glad that she has the police to call as a last resort. They may be called too often in some schools. We've all seen videos of police restraining tantruming 7 year olds and that sort of thing and it's abhorrent. But we don't typically see the videos of police breaking up really bad fights that we can't expect teachers or administrators to be capable of breaking up. We don't see videos of police responding when a kid shows up armed. I fundamentally believe that society needs a last-resort option that has a monopoly on force.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:41 (three years ago) link
And often the people writing those threads *don't* have the lived experience of actually having to figure out to deal with those situations at risk of bodily harm to themselves.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 14:42 (three years ago) link
fwiw this was one of the popular responses to that thread:
Friends if you have never thought about abolition until this week you do not need to be posting explainer threads about what it is. Just saw another thread with >50k likes saying we don’t know what police will look like after abolition.— micah herskind (@MicahHerskind) June 7, 2020
Abolishing the police means abolishing the police and viewing it as ‘abolishing policing as we know it’ is wrong.
― ShariVari, Sunday, 7 June 2020 15:01 (three years ago) link
Do you or somebody you know think that #AbolishThePolice is unrealistic? It might be because you know what the word abolish means.
― Mordy, Sunday, 7 June 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
TS: #AbolishThePolice vs #PolishThePolice
― pomenitul, Sunday, 7 June 2020 15:10 (three years ago) link
It’s sort of like the meme that socialism actually just means roads and social services.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 15:11 (three years ago) link
I would like to abolish the police.
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 15:28 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbXWrmQW-OE
― sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:03 (three years ago) link
See? It's already been tried.
― pomenitul, Sunday, 7 June 2020 16:05 (three years ago) link
If you get rid of the police what's to stop people from just putting out Sting solo albums?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:52 (three years ago) link
lawyers?
― sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 17:54 (three years ago) link
All the recent, tentative BLM support I’ve seen from small town and outer suburban white folks - after how many years and deaths - goes away immediately if they hear that the big liberal city nearby “abolishes” their police force and telling them to read a twitter thread from a self identified #lbtgqinchrist feminist phd to understand the nuance of the language isn’t going to help. It sucks but it probably has to be framed in some way where the poor overworked cops are doing too much and shouldn’t be expected to be social workers and mental health counselors and this is why the are acting up - which is totally abuser excuse language but ends / means etc
― joygoat, Sunday, 7 June 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
If you're more interested in gaining broader support for the cause in question than in asserting the moral high ground, it seems like barking 'abolish the police' at people who haven't previously given the proposal much consideration is a nonstarter. You will buttress the support of those who are already onboard while passing over people who may agree with you on every finer point but are wary of what 'abolition' seems to entail. The problem seems to be 100% about messaging, because I'm sure a huge swath of people would get behind most of what's being proposed.
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 18:27 (three years ago) link
I think it's p hard to know tbh. Abolish ICE seems like it kind of fizzled/went nowhere, and that one is simpler/easier to justify imo. OTOH, these sorts of things don't always progress linearly. Three years ago you might have though Black Lives Matter was dead as a slogan/campaign, yet now it seems to be bigger than ever. Maybe it plants the seed with generations growing up now to shift things when they are older. But I do think "abolish the police" is tough as a campaign because it's immediately going to make most people feel threatened and unsafe and sound off the wall. And joygoat otm that a twitter thread by a radical PhD is going to do about zero to change those people's perceptions.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 7 June 2020 18:38 (three years ago) link
Everything is completely different in 2020 because of the work done by Black Lives Matter groups starting in 2014, even if they didn’t have the country’s rapt attention for the last few years.
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 18:51 (three years ago) link
I agree, Old Lunch-- although I don't think it's anybody's place to state how other's should moderate their tone, I do think that a very important part of affecting change like this is people reaching out, one-on-one, to family and friends directly and engaging in thoughtful discussion instead of yelling ACAB in their faces. It has been interesting to see my cop wing of my family, in response to everything that's going on (as well as my out speaking to them) are kind of split on the subject right now, even if the cops themselves are unconvinced. The most encouraging and useful thing, to my mind, is seeing that certain changes have been proposed by certain cities, which not only makes abolition seem less pie-in-the-sky than it may have before, but is also very convincing to in discussions with friends and family members as well as letters to municipal politicians.
― DJ Fiona Apple Genius (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 7 June 2020 19:04 (three years ago) link
while some ppl are inevitably out there straight-forwardly and directly trying to convince anyone and everyone that the police should literally be immediately abolished, the overall effect is to nudge the overton window which starts to influence the soft & sensible middle's thinking, esp the young. ppl aren't just influenced by things they agree with/things that strike them as rational
― The Cognitive Peasant (ogmor), Sunday, 7 June 2020 19:08 (three years ago) link
Here is a pithy three-word slogan that you're not sure you can quite get behind.
Then you hear that you're bad because you're focusing on those three words, instead of the three thousand words that you need to read and internalize so that you can TRULY understand exactly what the three-word slogan does and does not mean?
Okay but. No matter how much I agree with the principle, I am not sure that's how persuasive messaging works. (And, not that it matters much, I have been a professional writer for 30 years.)
― i am not throwing away my snot (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 June 2020 19:15 (three years ago) link
I have a t-shirt that says Three Word Slogan fwiw
― sarahell, Sunday, 7 June 2020 19:18 (three years ago) link
What do we want? A slogan!How many words? Three!
― DJ Fiona Apple Genius (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 7 June 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
It’s the best number of words for a slogan I know of.
“Abortion on demand without apology” is good though, but it might be better if it were just “abortion without apology”.
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
Pro tip: it's not a three-word slogan if you need to read a thousand words to understand what it actually means
Thx
― i am not throwing away my snot (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 June 2020 20:37 (three years ago) link
If only the SDS had better slogans, we coulda ended the Vietnam War so much sooner
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Sunday, 7 June 2020 20:38 (three years ago) link
I don't think you have to read a thousand words to understand "abolish the police".
I for one actually mean: abolish the police. Do not have police. End police. Fire and do not replace the police.
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 20:53 (three years ago) link
I certainly haven't read so much as a thousand words about it. If you need to read a lot of words to believe that ceasing to have police is both possible and good, you should read them!
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 20:54 (three years ago) link
Cool, silby, rock on with your bad self, but the twit thread that Moodles linked to literally said:
Do you or somebody you know think that #AbolishThePolice is unrealistic? It might be because you haven’t taken the time to understand what it means, the reasons for it, and why it actually makes a lot of sense.
Which I take to mean: apparently lots of people need more than three words to grasp the true meaning of those three words. Which means it is no longer a three-word slogan. Which is what I am trying to communicate.
It's cool and shit that you have so much certainty. But you could maybe reflect that there might be people who are a bit wary of signing up for that full unalloyed agenda? Just sayin.
― I was working as a waitress in an oxygen bar (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 June 2020 21:40 (three years ago) link
No matter how much I may personally agree with the sentiment, it's hard to take implementation seriously when a request for further details is met with a 'Just Do It (Nike swoosh)'. Like the news out of Minneapolis rn is a little more fleshed out than 'Yeah, we're abolishing our police force. Just tossing them out. Buh-bye, coppers!'
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 21:58 (three years ago) link
Let’s give it a few hours
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 7 June 2020 21:58 (three years ago) link
To me the messaging feels like...
-The fridge is obviously not working.-Can we repair the fridge?-We as a household keep sort of trying but nobody seems motivated enough. We need to just throw the fridge out at this point.-Right and get a new one that works?-No.-No? We need a fridge.-Fridges don't work. They're too big, they require too much energy and frankly have too many features and are relied on too heavily.-But aside from those and all of the concerns we're dealing with still how do we manage the primary function of the fridge?-Well we need to do away with fridges as we know them.-Will whatever that means keep food from spoiling?-It’s not about establishing some kind of unrealistic utopia where food just magically stays fresh. An ideal kitchen will still have food that turns, sours and expires. But "fridges" in that house will be SO different from everything that we assume needs to be true about fridges today that we might not even recognize them as “fridges” because our concept of refrigeration is so twisted and wrong and messed up. If you do support doing away with the fridge, educate yourself on why this is reasonable and what that could look like.-Yeah but...
That End of Policing book she links in the twitter thread claims to cover: "[...]places where the robust implementation of policing alternatives—such as legalization, restorative justice, and harm reduction—has led to a decrease in crime, spending, and injustice." I would surprised if those scenarios also had absolutely no police force as well.
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 22:38 (three years ago) link
I feel ya on the messaging, but the analogy breaks down a bit when you get rid of your fridge but then unauthorized people want to break into your house and haphazardly chill your food for you (whether you like it or not) while also occasionally killing your children, taking your valuables, and sexually assaulting you
― I was working as a waitress in an oxygen bar (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 7 June 2020 22:45 (three years ago) link
No I totally acknowledge that! That sort of refrigeration service is definitely way over the line, I'm not about to ignore those issues, but if totally abolished I'd still be worried about my milk turning?
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 22:48 (three years ago) link
Or did I misread you- you said after getting rid of the fridge?
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 22:51 (three years ago) link
a better analogy is that cops are like guns, ostensibly for self-defense but end up killing/maiming a lot of ppl in the process and also fascists love them
― methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Sunday, 7 June 2020 22:52 (three years ago) link
I know what I need my fridge for. I don’t believe I need the cops for anything, and if I’ve been unwittingly relying on them for a certain amount of comfort I’ll give up the comfort.
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 22:55 (three years ago) link
Isn't that thinking of things a little too anecdotally? Also are you libertarian?
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:00 (three years ago) link
I mean I didn’t come up with the analogy
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:01 (three years ago) link
I’m just drawing contrasts between cops and refrigerators
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:02 (three years ago) link
I was ignoring the fridge analogy with those questions.
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:05 (three years ago) link
i feel a john oliver bit coming on
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:06 (three years ago) link
"I don’t believe I need the cops for anything, and if I’ve been unwittingly relying on them for a certain amount of comfort I’ll give up the comfort."
Was referring to that.
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:07 (three years ago) link
my post is only valid in consideration of the refrigerator analogy, I decline to answer follow-up questions
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:07 (three years ago) link
I'm not a libertarian tho, god forbid
Yeah, the anecdotal appeals are really not working for me at all. 'I've personally never had to rely on the cops for anything so they're useless.' 'I've personally had nothing but negative interactions with cops so they're pointless.' On an emotional level, I'm with you. On a rhetorical level, they can be immediately countered by anecdotes from those who have been helped by or had largely-positive experiences with police. Anecdotes are not a basis for radically changing policy.
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:11 (three years ago) link
Pretty sure the quote I isolated stands regardless of your fridge feelings. But if you don't want to engage, that's "cool" I guess.
― Evan, Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:11 (three years ago) link
I don't owe you jack!
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:12 (three years ago) link
I just didn't like your analogy
I hate cops, counterfactuals, and stupid analogies in that order
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:13 (three years ago) link
Like the stats out of Minneapolis make a compelling case for showing those fuckers the door. They back up the anecdotes.
― Fun-Loving and Furry-Curious! (Old Lunch), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:13 (three years ago) link
There are a lot of differences between fridges and cops, don't get me wrong
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:20 (three years ago) link
But whenever I look up and see a fridge it's usually white. Just saying
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:21 (three years ago) link
Here's an uncool conservative belief (small 'c', pub bore variety): My dad remembers not having a fridge, as a boy. And he turned out okay!
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 7 June 2020 23:24 (three years ago) link
Nah silby I honestly wasn't going for passive aggressive I was just making the lowest effort fridge pun imaginable.
― Evan, Monday, 8 June 2020 00:23 (three years ago) link
will post to puns that you had missed thread
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 8 June 2020 01:14 (three years ago) link
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by three separate yet equally important groups: The police, who investigate crime; the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders; and the refrigerators that store the creamers the other two groups need for their coffee. These are their stories.
DUN DUN
― I was working as a waitress in an oxygen bar (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 8 June 2020 01:57 (three years ago) link
DA walks into precinct kitchen with detective"Did you ever find out who was stealing our lunch?""Nope; it's a cold case"[opens almost empty fridge, stares at empty shelves]"The case may be cold, but my missing hoagie?"https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.hellogiggles.com%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2F18131754%2Felliot-stabler-law-and-order-svu.jpg
― Evan, Monday, 8 June 2020 14:48 (three years ago) link
Thread Ban Silby
― sarahell, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:36 (three years ago) link
From where??? This thread?
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:37 (three years ago) link
do I need to write 1000 words as to why you should be banned from this thread, bro?
― sarahell, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:38 (three years ago) link
I’ll be honest with you I usually don’t check what thread I’m posting in
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:40 (three years ago) link
just be like a fridge, and chill on the cool progressive beliefs in this thread
― sarahell, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:47 (three years ago) link
I’m very conservative compared to my friend who is an avowed Marxist-Leninist, whatever that means
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:49 (three years ago) link
yeah we all have cooler more radical friends ... hi-five!
― sarahell, Tuesday, 9 June 2020 02:50 (three years ago) link
there is only one thread, i'm on the same page. literally
― our god is a might god (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 03:31 (three years ago) link
i love the afl
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 03:32 (three years ago) link
(american football league)
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 03:33 (three years ago) link
My uncool conservative belief on abolish is that it seems crazy and scary, so probably should do it and see what happens.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Tuesday, 9 June 2020 04:15 (three years ago) link
(i know im late but) the argument that the 'defund the police' slogan is going to backfire on convincing moderates feels like really foolhardy logic considering the people who have been advocating for "defund the police" -- IE mainline organizations from the movement like Black Lives Matter itself -- are the ones who have, very successfully, moved the overton window now to the place that it is, where people are even debating or considering the idea.
"Do you support or oppose (X)"Defunding Police:Support: 28%Oppose: 58%Redirecting Police Funding To Communities:Support: 43%Oppose: 42%Morning Consult / June 14, 2020 / n=1987 / Online— Polling USA (@USA_Polling) June 17, 2020
This poll shows nearly a 1/3rd of Americans actually support "defunding the police," and the number rises to nearly half if you change the wording to imply the definition of "defunding the police."
The movement has done an incredible job of mainstreaming, over an incredibly short time, a concept that seemed hopelessly radical like, a month ago. And now it's getting backseat driver advice on how to more compellingly make the case?
Day after day new stories about people being killed & the police having zero repercussions come out. The idea that this is a farfetched pipe dream ... i could see the argument if we didn't have police unions operating as dangerous ideological, fascistic entities doxing the mayor of new york's daughter, lying to the public, protecting actual murderers; if we didn't have a government in place that was bordering on fascistic itself. But the left finally has some real purchase on the discourse & in the streets & we're second guessing that leadership? seems to me it's doing a lot better at making change happen than these scared suggestions that if we just say "reform the police" it will somehow end up w/ better results...
I dont really get the point, I guess, of being this kind of cynical, message-oriented moderate when you're facing ppl who are just repeating outright lies ... you have to tell the truth.
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 18 June 2020 07:14 (three years ago) link
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlashyEachAngora-max-1mb.gif
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 18 June 2020 08:34 (three years ago) link
I know it's sexist, but people in Aubrey Huff's twitter replies who assume he's a woman will always be a solid source of humor to me.
― peace, man, Thursday, 18 June 2020 10:04 (three years ago) link
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, June 18, 2020 3:34 AM (thirteen hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
Do you have something to say tracer
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 18 June 2020 22:11 (three years ago) link
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeavyAcclaimedChameleon-small.gif
― Evan, Thursday, 18 June 2020 23:31 (three years ago) link
D-40 i think the gif speaks for itself. imagine me giving you that look.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 19 June 2020 08:35 (three years ago) link
hudson yards represents a terrible moment in the development of NYC and I hope things go in a different direction― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, June 19, 2020 12:35 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, June 19, 2020 12:35 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
My uncool conservative belief: Hudson Yards is awesome and good
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 19 June 2020 18:05 (three years ago) link
what do you like abou it?
― Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 19 June 2020 18:52 (three years ago) link
cancel eephus
― mookieproof, Friday, 19 June 2020 19:28 (three years ago) link
1. no one gets "cancelled" on the uncool conservative beliefs thread -- unless someone makes a solid case for the uncool conservativeness of cancel culture2. i am banning the use of the phrase "overton window" from this thread. fair warning.
― sarahell, Friday, 19 June 2020 20:20 (three years ago) link
even pushing back against an unpopular conservative opinion is not in the spirit of this thread imo
― Mordy, Friday, 19 June 2020 20:27 (three years ago) link
nah D-40's post is fine -- just no more overton windows
― sarahell, Friday, 19 June 2020 20:32 (three years ago) link
guys i was joking
― mookieproof, Friday, 19 June 2020 20:46 (three years ago) link
<3
― sarahell, Friday, 19 June 2020 20:56 (three years ago) link
to be clear I wasn't pushing back w/ my question, just trying to tease out the reasoning
― Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 19 June 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link
i try to force myself into an open mind for even the most controversial opionion but am stymied thinking of a single redeeming quality to Hudson Yards...so...help
― Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 19 June 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link
It would make a good skate spot in a Tony Hawk game
― Evan, Friday, 19 June 2020 23:14 (three years ago) link
I mean, The Shed has the potential to be interesting I guess? I never went.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 19 June 2020 23:32 (three years ago) link
I can see maybe as a looting site in general
― Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 19 June 2020 23:55 (three years ago) link
― Evan
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Saturday, 20 June 2020 00:18 (three years ago) link
That awful alien beehive of capital walkway thingy is such a perfect symbol of the whole thing
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 20 June 2020 01:24 (three years ago) link
Good things about Hudson Yards: that spanish food mall has really delicious food and I can't think of an analogue for it anywhere else in New York. I like the big Muji (though I know there are several in New York) I think the Hive is just plain beautiful to look at. It makes a nice "top" to the High Line. Reading about it before I went, I had a sense that it was some kind of Luxury Island cut off from New York proper but in person it seemed very much folded in with what was around it. I dunno, I just like it and really enjoyed visiting it!
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 20 June 2020 15:47 (three years ago) link
I also like South Street Seaport fwiw
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 20 June 2020 15:48 (three years ago) link
the point is to destroy as much as possible the conditions that turn people into rapists and murderers, of which cops and prisons are a major part of worldwide. it's hard to imagine at the moment from within, it feels almost impossible but I know how stifled my imagination istbh my preferred solution would be to shoot them
tbh my preferred solution would be to shoot them
this post from new ilxor "Left" in the Abolish the Police thread echoes the initial spirit of this thread, just wanted to ... bring that up
― sarahell, Saturday, 20 June 2020 15:56 (three years ago) link
i think the european internet regulations are pretty dumb. it's like if my mother, who is terrified of her computer and dutifully 'removes cookies' every time she visits a site, wrote the policy. rhetorically it seems that they think they're taking down the big tech giants, yet they are more powerful than ever, and now we have to click 'accept cookies' every time we open a page
― flopson, Sunday, 21 June 2020 00:04 (three years ago) link
neither uncool nor conservative imo? the fact the regulators consulted with apparently zero actually experimental internet operators means their attempt at technocratic liberalism is actually conservative and dumb
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 21 June 2020 01:08 (three years ago) link
“experienced” not “experimental” derp
― El Tomboto, Sunday, 21 June 2020 01:09 (three years ago) link
many xps eephus fair enough
― Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Sunday, 21 June 2020 01:41 (three years ago) link
― El Tomboto, Saturday, June 20, 2020 9:08 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
dang
― flopson, Sunday, 21 June 2020 01:44 (three years ago) link
#tombotted
― mookieproof, Sunday, 21 June 2020 01:46 (three years ago) link
Pat Sajak seems like a nice guy
― Dig Dug the police (Neanderthal), Sunday, 21 June 2020 01:46 (three years ago) link
(that's my conservative opinion)
https://assholeoftheday.us/post/86444324475/pat-sajak-asshole-of-the-day-for-may-21-2014-by
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Sunday, 21 June 2020 03:02 (three years ago) link
idk if it's a belief per se but i'm always questioning the efficacy of boycotts
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Friday, 3 July 2020 12:17 (three years ago) link
My parents have been boycotting Nestle for 40 years.
― peace, man, Friday, 3 July 2020 13:00 (three years ago) link
probably a lot of us learned in school about the montgomery bus boycott, which was effective. part of the bowdlerization of the civil rights movement's legacy, though, is inculcating widespread ignorance about _what_ made it effective and why.
i know i've been, in the past, very critical of the historical narratives espoused by wikipedia, but i gotta say, when it comes at least to dr. king and his legacy, i've found their writing to be vastly superior to the crap I learned in school. in school, when they talked about the legacy of the bus boycott, they sure as fuck didn't start by saying "White backlash against the court victory was quick, brutal, and, in the short-term, effective.[47][48]", for instance. nobody told me about the baton rouge boycott, or about claudette colvin, or _any_ of this shit. i suspect a bunch of other people who like to talk about "boycotts" were taught the same bullshit i was, and are living what they were taught.
i'm not fucking "boycotting" chick-fil-a. i don't walk five miles to work every day to avoid eating at chick-fil-a. i just don't fucking eat there, and chick-fil-a seems to do just fucking fine with their chicken sandwiches despite that.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 3 July 2020 13:57 (three years ago) link
Boycotts also serve many purposes. Many people question the efficacy of boycotts because "these companies are too rich, you won't hurt their bottom line or make them go bankrupt", but that's not the goal. The goal is social change. Merely shuttering every problematic company doesn't help, as others rise in their wake. (Though, yes, it can be satisfying to get a local business run by an unrepentant White Nationalist asshole shuttered for good, as a secondary goal).
The thing about boycotts is they function on both an individual level and a collective level. If I choose not to spend my money intentionally at Chic-Fil-A, I know they won't give a fuck, but I'll feel better about not giving them money.
But on the collective level, boycotts do still work often because of the shell game that is the stock market. If a publicly traded major corporation winds up in several news cycles due to a boycott and accusations of problematic behavior, the CEO is under pressure by their Board of Directors, their shareholders, etc to put the fire out quickly and prevent huge losses for their investors.
For instance, the United "dragging" incident with David Dao. When those viral videos hit the news and people called for a boycott, United's CEO bungled the initial public statement, and their stock price temporarily dropped 4% (a 770 million dollar loss). So he was pressured to take a second crack at the statement and publicly apologized, but the CEO was also punished by being denied a promotion to Chairman as a direct result.
Did United suffer financially? LOL, of fucking course not. After the second effort, their stocks rebounded, they didn't see any real loss in their customer base. But it triggered changes to the local airport's security measures, and companies were so spooked about being dragged through the media, that the number of bumped flights for the remainder of the year dipped to their lowest totals in over 20+ years. Other airlines also changed their bump flight policy to be more amenable to customers, increasing the financial rewards, and Southwest ceased overbooking of flights.
So it does work - not always, and not perfectly, but they can enact change. But it has to be publicly visible. Nobody's going to notice a boycott that spreads via word of mouth only and has no media support. Another area where boycotters fail is letting up after the initial action. Its easy to feign cultural changes within a company to reverse stock losses, then go back to the same shitty behavior from earlier. Those who are boycotting need to keep pressure on the company to maintain those changes.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Friday, 3 July 2020 14:14 (three years ago) link
wow i'm glad my uncool conservative belief inspired these good posts, thanks y'all
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Friday, 3 July 2020 14:20 (three years ago) link
honestly it caused me to rethink my own thoughts on boycotts!
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Friday, 3 July 2020 14:26 (three years ago) link
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/02/mark-zuckerberg-advertisers-boycott-facebook-back-soon-enough
― pomenitul, Friday, 3 July 2020 14:29 (three years ago) link
Aka too big to boycott.
when you're as omnipresent as Amazon or Facebook, the efforts definitely prove themselves more difficult, if not impossible.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Friday, 3 July 2020 14:31 (three years ago) link
as good of a place to post this as any, i guess. you know when someone on fox news says something particular shameful and there's news that some major corporations are pulling their advertising for the show? how long do they keep their no-advertising pledge? where do they shift their advertising dollars to? is there any way to know if the same major corporation, a few months later, starts advertising during the same shameful fox news show?
i don't think i've ever seen a piece of news along the lines of "4 months after pulling their advertisements from the fucker carlson show due to his airing of white supremacy rants every single episode for several years in a row, johnson & johnson has quietly started advertising during his show again, sources say..." but does that mean that it never happens? fuck no. i expect that it happens all of the time. but how do you track that?
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 July 2020 15:13 (three years ago) link
like a lot of people i'd guess, sometimes i think about about a mass boycott of egregious corporate brands. but it's hard to figure out which evil corporations are the most evil in the first place! the very first thing is the endlessly complex parent company structures and partial holdings and investments all of these companies have in each other. there's the advertising side of it i just mentioned above. there are labor rights abuses and environmental crimes, on and on. it's so fucking complex.
but at the end of the day, what i would like is just to have a giant database, the Shit List, that people can contribute to and update, etc etc.
but then, to go to brad's potentially uncool conservative belief, there's also the fact that you can do all of that, but also...i want a macbook pro. you know? fuck
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 July 2020 15:20 (three years ago) link
I hope this graphic helps clarify things
https://i.imgur.com/pnMMj.jpg
― zombeekeeper (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 3 July 2020 17:00 (three years ago) link
i feel like the endpoint of all that is "shop local!", which is much more simple advice to follow. but the problem is that shop local doesn't really translate well to a protest or movement, or result in any lasting change to the overall corporate stranglehold on broader "consumer" behavior
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 July 2020 17:05 (three years ago) link
plus, all those small businesses in the graphic employ a bunch of people. someone working for Nestle isn't going to boycott Kellogg's. they're all in that shit together
(btw, clearly i have no point. just trying to air out my own weird relationship with the efficacy of boycotts!)
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 July 2020 17:06 (three years ago) link
i suppose another angle is that boycotts work, but only when they involve other people that have tons of money and are influential, like investors
https://sports.yahoo.com/after-investors-call-for-name-change-nike-appears-to-wipe-redskins-off-its-website-014246135.html
#onethread
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 July 2020 17:18 (three years ago) link
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal)
i think you make a good point about the difference between individual action and collective action. one of the foundational principles of enlightenment rational democracy is preference for individual action and hostility towards collective action - see for instance george washington's frankly bizarre and ludicrous idea that "faction" would be the ruin of these great united states.
i believe that boycotting can be effective on a collective level and choosing to avoid purchasing a product can be effective on an individual level, but that neither are clear-cut moral goods.
i haven't ever seen "the good place" but i've read about it and know of its invocation of chick-fil-a as a particular contemporary moral dilemma. my concern is that ineffective individual action - and this is, i can't cite it, but i have read about studies of charitable behavior. people take a token ineffective individual step and then they're less likely to participate in an actually effective collective step because they're already "doing their part".
and to be fair to the "doing their part" people, it's not like not buying chicken sandwiches from a corporation that has a corporate policy of wanting to eradicate people like me from the earth is even a straightforward moral decision, either. "the good place" is right, their chicken sandwiches are _delicious_. (in a cruel irony, this is in large part because they brine their chicken in pickle juice, which is _particularly_ attractive to many people taking spironolactone, the most prescribed antiandrogen in the united states.) the moral calculus here is fucked up; there's a decent argument to be made that, for an individual person who enjoys chick-fil-a's chicken sandwiches, refraining from eating those sandwiches hurts that individual more than it hurts chick-fil-a. some fuckin' tragedy of the commons shit there, or something.
the other issue is that boycotts are more effective the more financial input you have into the product or company you are boycotting. simple enough. which means that in a system predicated on gross financial inequality and widespread poverty of meaningful economic choices, the odds are stacked against the effectiveness of a boycott undertaken purely by consumers. for most people, their most valuable inputs into the system are not their money, of which they have comparatively little, but their labor. which is why, of course, organized capital has spent so much effort into discrediting and destroying the organized labor movement and indeed the very idea of collective action itself since, well, the dawn of organized labor.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 3 July 2020 18:51 (three years ago) link
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Friday, July 3, 2020 12:05 PM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
One thing I struggle with is that, having worked growing up as a cook in local bars and restaurants, many times local businesses are owned by absolute abusive lunatics who don't even have even the patina of corporate HR to check any of their behavior
Also many times people in service/hourly jobs at, say, Applebee's might have some semblance of health care, possibility of advancement and a higher hourly wage
One example that I read about which hadn't occurred to me is the craft beer movement is seen as progressive but the "bad" bigger companies are generally union shops with benefits and surrogacy workplace standards
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 3 July 2020 23:38 (three years ago) link
I mean I guarantee like half of the Trump people you see freaking out on camera are local businesses owners
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 3 July 2020 23:39 (three years ago) link
Or no group has fought harder against minimum wage increases than local businesses
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 3 July 2020 23:42 (three years ago) link
― methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Friday, 3 July 2020 23:50 (three years ago) link
this is why the ultimate political movement is..DIY
homegrown is a good thing
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Saturday, 4 July 2020 03:35 (three years ago) link
it's the political movement that you belong to, by yourself
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Saturday, 4 July 2020 03:36 (three years ago) link
you pretty much do it all yourself, that's the goal at least
boycott are alright but im not a fan of the genre of post that’s guilting ppl into researching the entire supply chain of every product they buy for ethics and internalize it’s violations
― flopson, Saturday, 4 July 2020 07:34 (three years ago) link
“Should everything be run by corporations because small business owners are assholes” is a dilemma that goes through my mind sometimes. But it’s the Sophie’s choice of capitalism so I try not to get too sucked into it.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 4 July 2020 12:41 (three years ago) link
"small business owner" is part of the mythos of entrepreneurial capitalism, like small business owners are all horatio alger types trying to get over through "hustle". and then we're all surprised when a lot of them turn out to be, uh, hustlers. see also: enormous factory farm/agribusiness conglomerates proudly trumpeting themselves as "family businesses" on their product labels.
― Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 4 July 2020 14:42 (three years ago) link
like i'm just gonna go down to the farmer's market and buy some produce from this local independent family farmer who calls herself "volksmom" online
― Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 4 July 2020 14:49 (three years ago) link
Indeed small business owners are often the most fully *bought in* on the ideology, whereas someone upper class may be aware of the unearned nature of their status
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 4 July 2020 15:46 (three years ago) link
narcotics trafficking and organized crime, in general, tend to be family businesses. ... I think people need to re-think their assumptions about "family businesses"
― sarahell, Saturday, 4 July 2020 15:52 (three years ago) link
small biz entrepreneurs actually work insanely hard ime, especially at the outset. my mom quit her job to open a small resto when i was in junior high and it was the most i’ve ever seen anyone work in my life. i work in academia and i hope/intend to never work that hard for a sustained period lol. probably a comparable workload to finance or workaholic execs of big corps in terms of hours per week. it was good that her employees didn’t have to work that hard, and once things were up-and-running she was definitely able to chill (took about a year) but even then she ended up selling it to her chef because it was too draining. imo whatever ideology small biz owners have is p well deserved from the amount of work it takes to get it off the ground, plus the risk they bear if it fails.
i don’t think capitalistic evilness has a straightforward relationship to firm size; there are better ways to make work conditions good than through policy interventions in firm size like breakups of mergers, which should be reserved for antitrust and other product market concerns. small business are on tighter margins + don’t benefit from economies of scale so tend to pay less, but also have face-to-face relationships with their employees which often makes it harder to exploit than in a giant faceless corp. also the division of labor in a big company arguably makes work more “alienated” if u think that concept is meaningful. on the other hand, larger firms are subject to more stringent labor regulations and more often unionized and have HR departments. a truly enormous firm can pay lower wages if it’s monopsonistic and although there’s some evidence that happens at the margin, overall wages are strongly positively correlated with firm size
― flopson, Sunday, 5 July 2020 20:54 (three years ago) link
i hate it when non-religious liberals post memes like this
https://i.imgur.com/8xEjMwx.jpg
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Sunday, 5 July 2020 22:42 (three years ago) link
"did you know that when you say 'all lives matter,' you're actually disagreeing with Jesus Christ himself? lol owned!"
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Sunday, 5 July 2020 22:44 (three years ago) link
being that I'm an atheist, I find it pointless in general to invoke a guy I don't believe in to win an argument, so I tend to find it pointless.
most of those religious-appeal memes are indeed crap
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Sunday, 5 July 2020 23:02 (three years ago) link
There’s definitely something about those memes that has an air of winning an argument with yourself. Insert any half-hearted invocation of religion, “conservative values” etc
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 5 July 2020 23:06 (three years ago) link
when you finally do submit to yourself, though, what a feeling
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Sunday, 5 July 2020 23:18 (three years ago) link
Being's believing-Psalms 73:7
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Sunday, 5 July 2020 23:34 (three years ago) link
also the division of labor in a big company arguably makes work more “alienated” if u think that concept is meaningful.
I feel like that's one of the most meaningful concepts actually. It is why I am sometimes skeptical of "big government" in that government bureaucracies are structured and function similarly to large corporations. The responsiveness to "customers" and "communities" tends to be greater for smaller entities where those who have decision-making powers have closer ties to those they serve. I have had equally Kafka-esque experiences with both large corporations and government agencies.
― sarahell, Monday, 6 July 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link
small biz entrepreneurs actually work insanely hard ime, especially at the outset.
otm -- I have seen others do it and I have done so personally ...
― sarahell, Monday, 6 July 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
The way I see it, American capitalism has a largely fixed upper class and bourgeoise with a sort of quasi-meritocratic lottery system for others to make it into these classes. One of the ways you can do that is as a "small business owner," and it legitimately is *possible* for a person to win that game through a combination of intense hard work, talent, exploitation of the labor of others, and luck, but the product of that process is people who are extra-bought-in to the mythology of capitalism. Because they saw it work for them, so it must work.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:08 (three years ago) link
There's a bit of desperation behind the small business push *against* minimum wage as a result. Because the odds are much more stacked against them, and the owners are very invested in the idea that they have to succeed, and tbh they generally are more threatened financially by minimum wage laws than large businesses due to scale. It's true that minimum wage probably hurts small business owners more. It's just that the underlying assumption is "I deserve for my business to succeed so I can escape my wretched status, therefore of course I should be able to exploit the wretched status of others." They would never overtly think of it that way, of course.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:11 (three years ago) link
I think they overtly think of it that way
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
like maybe they don't think "exploit" but they honestly think "if I have to pay people more my business will fail!" and it's like fuck you it should fail if you can't succeed while paying people enough to live and thrive in the city they work in
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:39 (three years ago) link
my opinions on small business owners are on the record though
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:40 (three years ago) link
Sounds like they coincide with mine.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:48 (three years ago) link
fuck you it should fail if you can't succeed while paying people enough to live and thrive in the city they work in
This is one of those catchy sentiments that I think gets the emphasis wrong. Because the whole point is that most people could not afford to pay others a living wage while also striving to break through to wealth with their small business, and those who could probably have family wealth. I mean, yeah, they are assholes, but their assholedom is just a product of our strive-or-die system.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:49 (three years ago) link
Like how the fuck can anyone start a business from nothing and pay people a living wage the entire time unless they have significant capital?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:50 (three years ago) link
And how is that different from any other country in the world?
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:51 (three years ago) link
I guess the exception is a business that can be gotten off the ground with only your own unpaid labor (or you and your partner) or whatever, and then you work a second job to pay for your food and housing. This is the ethic our society lionizes.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:52 (three years ago) link
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, July 6, 2020 12:51 PM (thirty-three seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
Um, in other countries people have healthcare, a social safety net, etc.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 17:53 (three years ago) link
And small business owners are still dicks.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:01 (three years ago) link
you can't public policy your way out of dicks existing tbrr
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:03 (three years ago) link
I mean, having one's own basic needs met while getting a business of the ground and not worrying about becoming homeless or being unable to pay for insulin probably lessens one's need to exploit the labor of others, and if those workers also have their basic needs met and basic security that's even better for both the workers and the business.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:24 (three years ago) link
US government contracting is rife with small businesses that are doing decently well by obtaining SB setaside contracts. Ideally you can fish in a variety of ponds if you are, for example, a service-disabled veteran who is also an Alaska Native, a woman, and you are incorporated in a historically underutilized business zone. Much of this work is IT-focused defense contracting, for living wages. But the deck is heavily stacked for those who are good at playing it.
― zombeekeeper (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:24 (three years ago) link
(xp) That sounds good but it's not really how it works. Not that I disagree with your analysis of why so many of small business owners are assholes, it's just I don't buy that US small business owners are uniquely assholes, they might have some unique circumstances that make it likely they will act as assholes but small business owners are assholes the world over (ditto cops btw). There are even circumstances unique to places outside the US that ensure they produce excess of assholes too.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2020 18:36 (three years ago) link
― trapped out the barndo (crüt)
well, shit, why the hell am i advocating for universal coverage for transgender healthcare then?
― Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 6 July 2020 19:36 (three years ago) link
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, July 6, 2020 10:52 AM (yesterday)
uh, not really? or, it only "lionizes" it if you are successful and if your business is of a certain category? I certainly didn't feel "lionized" by society when I and my (former) partner did this. Conversely, I feel like our society prizes "rising through the ranks" more than any sort of DIY type ethos that is more consistent with starting your own business. It definitely values results more than process.
Though, it could very well be that we might be more attuned to when "the other" is valued, as opposed to "oneself."
― sarahell, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 15:50 (three years ago) link
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, July 6, 2020 10:39 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, July 6, 2020 10:40 AM (yesterday)
apparently we can't public policy our way out of dicks existing on ilx either -- so ... I am going to try and not take this personally, and go super aggro on you, but your smarmy shtick is really grating, in general. It just reeks of white boi privilege and being like ... 25 years old ... and fear. Like, you strike me as someone is who afraid to risk anything real, but are happy to judge other people who do. And a lot of the time those risks come with a lot of personal challenges, that sometimes ends up making someone do things they regret, or behave towards others in an unethical way ... but ideally (and actually many times) it leads to personal growth and change and learning from those mistakes. ... I am talking about small business owners, mainly -- not quite ready to apply that to cops that kill people, though I guess we all draw the line somewhere.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:00 (three years ago) link
Otfm. I don't know if Silby's hatred of small businesses means they prefer big businesses or not? You know, the ones who actually make squeezing out employees 'store policy' and a big part of their growth/$$$ model? Or do they prefer no businesses at all?
― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:09 (three years ago) link
another thing that I've seen play out is small business owners being more responsive to being called out for things and changing business practices to be more equitable, whereas big business and government tend to make token gestures or take out ads or whatever, and then it's back to business as usual.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:22 (three years ago) link
like, I am not arguing that all small business owners are good people. some actually are good people and do the right thing almost all the time, and they are like saints. the majority will make mistakes, and some of them, when called out on them, will be receptive to change and become better people.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:23 (three years ago) link
maybe it's my startup experience talking but ime small business owners are generally tyrants and cranks, their own type of evil distinct from major CEOs or whatever
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:34 (three years ago) link
I AM COMBOT, MUST SEIZE CONTROL OF AND DISTRIBUTE GRAIN SEMI-MONTHLY
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:43 (three years ago) link
i know you did not intend it, but now I have snippets of songs from Joseph and the Motherfucking Technicolor Dreamcoat stuck in head
― sarahell, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:44 (three years ago) link
lol...I've actually been in that musical twice.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:46 (three years ago) link
may it be relegated to the ashheap of musical theater history
my personal experience working for small business owners: first was a narcissist with cult-leader aspirations (also my boyfriend haha!), second was a libertarian boomer chauvinist who expected everyone to work as hard as he did for $15 / hour (said libertarian notably worked for years in the national park service and presumably had great benefits because of it), third was for my brother in his fintech startup, basically a charity position and i got treated with kid gloves until i got laid off. i'm now working for the state and it's mellow so i'm feeling pretty good about larger bureaucracies atm.
― carin' (map), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
my experience working for small businesses has not, overall, left me with a lot of respect for small business owners as a class. i am not inclined to elucidate further on a public forum.
― Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 17:48 (three years ago) link
take any group of many thousands of people and you will find examples of the most wonderful and worst human beings
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 17:52 (three years ago) link
except in eminence, MO. there you will find nothing but the worst
― time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 17:53 (three years ago) link
small business owners and big business owners often gravitate towards the horrible, it's just easier to be discreet terrible when you're a big publicly traded company and ergo have an HR you can 'blame'
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 17:53 (three years ago) link
Or do they prefer no businesses at all?
― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:09 AM (two hours ago)
well,
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 18:44 (three years ago) link
not a conservative belief though
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 18:48 (three years ago) link
anyway I've resolved not to get in fights on ilx during business hours after what happened in March so namaste
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 18:50 (three years ago) link
How about busy-ness.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 7 July 2020 18:53 (three years ago) link
I am going to try and not take this personally, and go super aggro on you, but your smarmy shtick is really grating, in general. It just reeks of white boi privilege and being like ... 25 years old ... and fear. Like, you strike me as someone is who afraid to risk anything real, but are happy to judge other people who do.
love this extremely pompous bad post, esp the ditumish "sorry you're not brave" bit. this site is truly joyless, our time would be better spent going back to crying about what toxic pieces of shit we are
― rumpy riser (ogmor), Tuesday, 7 July 2020 23:46 (three years ago) link
Have you, ahem, seen some of the invective hurled by the person those comments were made towards during the last few months?
sarahell's comments didn't just occur in a vacuum.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 00:28 (three years ago) link
(I'm not anti-silby or anything, just saying silby was doing a "small business owners are scum of the earth" type spiel that irked several actual business owner ilxors not all that long ago in a separate thread, so some of that probably factors in here).
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 00:35 (three years ago) link
i don't understand treating "small business owners" as a single category. it doesn't make any sense.
― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:20 (three years ago) link
please buy my meat pies
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:22 (three years ago) link
idgi either, perhaps because I know quite a few of them who don't fit the mold being proposed here.
I get that there are groups that deserve collective scorn even if there are exceptions who prove the rule, I just don't get why small business owners are "it", per se. which isn't to deny anybody's bad experiences with small business owners, it's just....idk why treating them like a homogeneous entity helps anything really.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:34 (three years ago) link
absolute idealism births absolute value systemsplease, they're lovely pies and i have an hbo max subscription to keep up
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:36 (three years ago) link
UCB: Steven Pinker should continue to be a Fellow of the Linguistics Society of America
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:46 (three years ago) link
However I will pair my UCB with the Cool Left Belief that it is ridiculous to consider the UCB in any way a transgressive, illicit, or god-help-me "brave" belief to hold or to express
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:47 (three years ago) link
i played one of Joseph's brothers in that musical ... there were four other cis-females who played brothers, but i was the only one with boobs ... i think i had 4 solo lines ??? I think one was "we are ill"
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 07:07 (three years ago) link
more like two over-hyped exemplars of privilege. ppl should stop worshipping lucier and give credit to the first early humans who felt a transcendental tranquility as they contemplated their mortality and the limits of their self as they listened to the echoes of their voice bouncing off the rocks of the great rift valley― rumpy riser (ogmor), Sunday, June 14, 2020 8:56 AM (three weeks ago)
― rumpy riser (ogmor), Sunday, June 14, 2020 8:56 AM (three weeks ago)
i love this extremely pompous bad post of yours! Glad we can mutually appreciate each other!
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 07:15 (three years ago) link
I'm touched you went to the trouble of digging it out, sorry if you had to scroll through too much uk politics content
― rumpy riser (ogmor), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 12:02 (three years ago) link
i also scrolled through a number of posts about marxism and the left as well that I thought were quite good, actually ... and your posts on the keeping up with new music thread were quite un-pompous
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 17:11 (three years ago) link
also Gucci Gucci is one of my fave songs as well
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 17:12 (three years ago) link
*munches an apple*
― carin' (map), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
Reveal Your Cool Detentes Here
― carin' (map), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 17:28 (three years ago) link
silby is frankly a master at making ppl disgrace themselves talking down to him & meeting his flippancy with serious scorn, but the personal rubbish is unnecessary and unhealthy for all concerned (don't you think ilx works better when we don't have to hear what people think they really think of each other?) including the reader, who is so very tired
― rumpy riser (ogmor), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 18:04 (three years ago) link
i for one could generally use a nap
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 18:28 (three years ago) link
lol I come from a long line of small business owners and I’m dying at the thought of stanning for them as a class?! Like I’ve worked for other small businesses and they absolutely do play the “sorry we can’t pay you more” tune while squeezing you for everything you’re worth...there’s no noble way to do wage theft.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 18:50 (three years ago) link
xxp - uh, if you found my post disgraceful, then that's on you. silby is so far from a master, it is sad ... it really is ... otoh, most of the true masters of those things you mention appear to be sociopaths and have been banned and/or quit ilx. silby is a smug child that will grow up to be a self-loathing middle aged person still waiting on the revolution ... or develop more nuanced beliefs based on actual lived experiences of other people whom they will likely encounter over time.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 18:58 (three years ago) link
Why do we have to do anything with small business people as a class?
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 18:59 (three years ago) link
nah it wasn’t just him.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 18:59 (three years ago) link
Like have we just accepted they're a monolith or
you’d probably want to read my post again before projecting the argument you want to be responding to.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link
😗🎶
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:02 (three years ago) link
Fraudulent emoji I can’t really whistle
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:03 (three years ago) link
silby's great, would prefer their perspective to many cis shitheads who will post here forever
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:05 (three years ago) link
I can only whistle by blowing out, not breathing in. And the only tune I can do is Alpha Beta Gaga.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:06 (three years ago) link
I think the average job (at least in the states) is a garbage place to work, why add "small" in front
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:07 (three years ago) link
Neanderthal -- which roles did you play in Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:08 (three years ago) link
I ain't rereading shit guac
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:08 (three years ago) link
yeah I could tell mate, don’t waste your words!
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:09 (three years ago) link
so, okay ... WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS? ... I feel like this term is being used to refer to different things by different posters?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:17 (three years ago) link
this whirlwind of confusing beef will surely only benefit sales of my delicious meat piesplease, they are on COVID special and will surely allow me to buy more hard drives
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:19 (three years ago) link
i don't think anything silby said above was really revelatory. But I am not searching through old posts to find the source of drama.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:25 (three years ago) link
Uncool though not necessarily conservative belief I more or less sincerely hold: Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat is the best contemporary musical
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:27 (three years ago) link
I was Naphthali
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:29 (three years ago) link
I don't care how tall you are owning a business is hard work
― Evan, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:44 (three years ago) link
whoa! I was Gad! we were bros!
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:44 (three years ago) link
like, I include members of worker-owned co-ops in my definition of small business owners, as well as self-employed people who don't have employees, and Executive Directors (senior staff) of small non-profits. ...
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:47 (three years ago) link
If righteous posters silby and gyac want to besmirch the category of members of worker-owned co-ops, please, go ahead ... they aren't perfect and there are systemic problems in re equity and other things but ... I am open to discussing those fairly and respectfully
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:48 (three years ago) link
Seems like in the US small businesses can be as big as 1500 employees and $30M in revenues. So there is a spectrum.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 19:52 (three years ago) link
what in the ever-loving fuck did this thread turn into
and “worker-owned co-ops” is the credible outlier small business model that only a KNOWN TROLL would bring up when small business is being criticized ffs
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:05 (three years ago) link
I’m gonna do it
#notallsmallbusinessowners
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:07 (three years ago) link
like for every fuckin’ co-op run with an average amount of drama there are a half dozen home/landscaping/construction contractors underpaying immigrants under the table who spend the other half their day screaming about how their suburban monstrosity of a house is overtaxed
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:09 (three years ago) link
so ... you only want to eat at chain restaurants?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:20 (three years ago) link
I only wanna eat at small business restaurants that only hire young people and routinely sexually harass them, tyvm 😉
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:21 (three years ago) link
like what is the argument here: that small businesses owners are horrible people and thus small businesses shouldn't exist? ... or that small business owners are not inherently saintly? ... or ... large corporations are better than small businesses because there are more checks/balances on the people that run them, because all people that run businesses are horrible people?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:24 (three years ago) link
I stopped eating at the local chain that counts as a small business because the owner is a total shithead who testified to the city council that we absolutely should not raise the minimum wage and is a bad employer. If there’s a group meeting I don’t control, I’d go there but tip very well.
That guy is generally the exception and not the rule, with the caveat that most small businesses are going to have wage pressures as they take on employees and it’s really hard to make any restaurant successful
pretending “small businesses are bad” is some blanket condemnation of small businesses in particular and not the societal conditions that keep them bad is some bullshit, along with thinking it comes with the implication that corporate chains are better. absolutely no one has said “corporate chains are better than small business restaurants”
if you absolutely have to hear it said as “the current small business model is bad” then I’ll insert the words
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:25 (three years ago) link
LL gets it
I hold fast to the uncool conservative belief that power corrupts -- so I am certainly not arguing against the posters here that are citing actual examples of small business owners being horrible people, because power tends to make people do bad things, and people with a tendency to garbage behavior are often attracted to power and obtain it more easily.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:27 (three years ago) link
“the current small business model is bad” then I’ll insert the words
what model are we talking about? ...
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:28 (three years ago) link
I mean, I regularly say all software development is horrible — and that is WHAT I DO and what silby does — and we all nod appreciatively in the given thread
like this is worse, sarahell, than when you’re like “oh the tax code actually makes perfect sense if you read the documentation” which is mental because defending one of the things that’s notably a fiasco top to bottom is weird and contrarian
Dr. Pangloss business over here
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:28 (three years ago) link
the small business model is one where we offer no incentive to pay over minimum wage when our cities encourage new businesses, we link healthcare to employment putting an oversized burden on small businesses, we have at-will employment laws that both empower small businesses yet keep them from allowing workers to have any power
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:29 (three years ago) link
i think i have only ever worked for terrible small business owners. it's my specialty.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:31 (three years ago) link
“oh the tax code actually makes perfect sense if you read the documentation” which is mental because defending one of the things that’s notably a fiasco top to bottom is weird and contrarian
not really -- all I was saying by that is that it has an internal logic. I am not saying it is inherently good. I am not saying that it should be set in stone and that it can't be changed for the better. ... though I will rep for certain provisions of the tax code that actually are designed to help promote economic equity and to combat fraud and greed of the wealthy.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:31 (three years ago) link
I mean, the most wrong-headed ideas about starting small businesses come from the top down. See: Harris’s presidential campaign doing some “well if you have a Pell grant and start a business after college and pay back the loan within X months etc etc” contrived shit
we don’t do anything to encourage the small businesses to act right, and we have a bunch of bullshit coming in from chambers of commerce both local and national since they don’t care about employees and in some cases, actively shun businesses that treat employees well
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:32 (three years ago) link
it’s really hard to be a small business owner that does right by their employees and is able to succeed *by design*. it’s systematic
also, a bunch of small business owners are assholes
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
my uncool opinion is that if you own a business and want it to succeed then BE A GODDAMN ASSHOLE
because the system ain’t going to help you otherwise
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:34 (three years ago) link
okay, those are specific things that I agree with you on completely. Also, those affect certain types of small businesses more than others. ... Like I find it totally baffling that you would assume that I knew that this is what you were referring to.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:34 (three years ago) link
did you think we were talking about co-ops? I somehow know this shit from osmosis and reading!
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
Uh, idk dude -- small businesses include consulting firms, and architectural firms, and recording studios and industrial door installers ... as well as restaurants, retail, landscaping ... they don't all have the same labor requirements ... as in relatively unskilled labor that systemically, and due to the nature of the business, ends up having to be kept as low as possible. There are small business categories that also employ a significant number of people where all the workers are paid quite well (compared to the minimum wage people or the day laborers) because the business requires highly-skilled labor. ... Like, you say you work in software development. There are small businesses that consist mostly of software developers. Maybe they get paid less than if they worked for Microsoft or Apple or Amazon ... but they are probably better compensated than a barrista at Starbucks.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:43 (three years ago) link
And I have dealt with this for years working in the non-profit sector, where the equivalent jobs in government and in big corporations pay wayyyyyy more than working for a small to mid-size non-profit ... but, not all work satisfaction and life satisfaction is tied to those material factors.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:49 (three years ago) link
So we're back to small business owners being great everywhere but the USA. OK.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:51 (three years ago) link
I've worked for dozens of small businesses and like maybe 5-10% of the owners were kinda shitty? Idk ... maybe I'm lucky? I self-define as a small business owner, but I don't have any workers, I do all the work myself ... which, would you say that is the same or is your definition of "small business owner" someone who has employees?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:55 (three years ago) link
Definitely someone with employees.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:56 (three years ago) link
I think if you start from the proposition that capitalism as a framework is bad (not, btw, a conservative opinion), then for-profit business is pretty much the main locus of badness. Anyone who wants to succeed as an entrepreneur within that framework is pretty likely to be a bad person.
Silby, at least, hinted as much, in a welcome moment of honesty here:
Or do they prefer no businesses at all?― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:09 AM (two hours ago)well,― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 2:44 PM (yesterday)
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 2:44 PM (yesterday)
Small businesses that squeeze value from employees while not being able to pay them a living wage? Bad.
Large businesses that squeeze value from employees while being able (but not willing) to pay them a living wage? Also bad. But bad in a different way.
Apologies if I'm misrepresenting anyone's viewpoint. But p much if you think for-profit business is an inherently corrupt and corrupting activity, then you will be approximately as opposed to small businesses as large ones.
If, on the other hand, you only object to those businesses that mistreat and/or underpay workers, then you will be cool with the sort of non-shitty businessmammals that sarahell alludes to here:
small businesses include consulting firms, and architectural firms, and recording studios and industrial door installers ... as well as restaurants, retail, landscaping ... they don't all have the same labor requirements ... as in relatively unskilled labor that systemically, and due to the nature of the business, ends up having to be kept as low as possible. There are small business categories that also employ a significant number of people where all the workers are paid quite well (compared to the minimum wage people or the day laborers) because the business requires highly-skilled labor. ... Like, you say you work in software development. There are small businesses that consist mostly of software developers. Maybe they get paid less than if they worked for Microsoft or Apple or Amazon ... but they are probably better compensated than a barrista at Starbucks.
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:58 (three years ago) link
capitalism as a framework is bad (not, btw, a conservative opinion), then for-profit business is pretty much the main locus of badness.
okay ... so ... going from there, that capitalism as a framework is bad ... let's say there is a product or service that you feel would be useful and desirable to people besides yourself that is currently not being made or offered. Let's say that you are capable of making this product or offering this service. What is a non-bad way of doing that?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
let's say that product is wolf erotica.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
continue.
Basically, is there a way to make or do a thing and be compensated for it that is not bad?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link
I too like to move so far away from the initial argument that you’d need a telescope to see it.“So are you saying...money...is...bad?”
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link
A singular wolf-erotica producer owns the means of production (whatever that may be) and gives the wolf erotica away for free. Everyone else in the community agrees that the wolf erotica is useful and desirable, and in their weekly meeting they democratically decide to reward the wolf-eroticist with extra food, clothing, and luxury goods. This is happening in a context where all basic needs are met through UBI.
Or, an autonomous collective of wolf-erotica producers gets together. They live cooperatively, pooling their existing resources (including generous UBI), and they do the work of wolf-erotica production for the love of their craft, and their desire to enrich the world with their creative work.
Again, the community at large may decide that it is a beneficial activity, and may further choose to reward the wolf-erotica production collective with extra rations (or whatever else the wolf-eroticists feel they need).
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link
Does the wolf erotica have to be given away for free, even though you spent 500 hours writing and designing it and paid 5 people for consulting services: the wildlife biologist who advised on the sexual habits of actual wolves, the graphic artist to create 3-D models of sexy wolves, two dancers to perform physical wolf-like movements in an erotic manner to help with your visualization of the sex scenes, and a lawyer to make sure that your wolf erotica doesn't violate any laws?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link
how about zero dollars of my taxes go to wolf erotica
― lumen (esby), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
I'm Getting Furry!HoooooooooooooooooooooWWWoWooooWoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
― conner Smedley (gsc660), Friday, January 31, 2003 3:27 PM (seventeen years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
lawyer is also there to sue the other wolf erotica writers for infringing on the source material.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:14 (three years ago) link
^^ Yerac gets it
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:15 (three years ago) link
while you've all been arguing, my meat pies have gone bad and i have been forced to sell my stock at below cost to Purinai am now going to work in the data mines
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:17 (three years ago) link
truly i have been liberated from the yoke of capitalism!
"let's say that product is wolf erotica.
― Yerac"
i have a friend who is trying to start a business doing that, any constructive suggestions welcome
"I hold fast to the uncool conservative belief that power corrupts -- so I am certainly not arguing against the posters here that are citing actual examples of small business owners being horrible people, because power tends to make people do bad things, and people with a tendency to garbage behavior are often attracted to power and obtain it more easily.
― sarahell"
i overanalyze and have, since i read it, been fascinated by robert caro's counterproposal that "power reveals". i suspect that to be broadly true, but what it reveals is broadly dependent on how we are changed by the process of obtaining power.
most of the ways of obtaining power, particularly as pertains to capital, do tend to fuck one up.
― Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:18 (three years ago) link
Okay -- let's make this a bit more challenging, in this hypothetical, we're gonna posit that there is no UBI to subsidize/capitalize the wolf erotica production -- how do we make the best of this less than ideal situation
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
i feel like the wolf erotica market may have peaked/become oversaturated. xpost
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
we are also going to posit that housing and food are obtained in exchange for money, and are not provided for free by the governing body.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:21 (three years ago) link
Does the wolf erotica have to be given away for free, even though you spent 500 hours writing and designing it
Hmm. That sounds suspiciously like capitalism. The Marxist position is "from each according to their ability and to each according to their need."
So, "From each according to their ability to produce wolf erotica; to each according to their need to consume wolf erotica."
But here we're getting far afield from uncool conservative beliefs.
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:23 (three years ago) link
let's say there is a great need to consume wolf erotica, but the person/people who have the greatest ability to produce wolf erotica do not have the resources to produce as much wolf erotica as there is a desire for
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:25 (three years ago) link
so, we would either need to deprive some consumers of wolf erotica who really need it, or ... we need to provide additional resources to the producers of wolf erotica so that everyone who needs wolf erotica can have it
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:26 (three years ago) link
or ... we determine who needs the wolf erotica the most and those who don't need it as much can have something else ... like walrus erotica
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:27 (three years ago) link
and as a community we need to convince those who had to make do with the walrus erotica to be content with having the less desirable product and not engage in class warfare against those who were able to obtain the more desirable wolf erotica
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:30 (three years ago) link
before you had those words out of your mouth chuck tingle had written five novels of walrus erotica
the deciding factor isn't wolf vs. walrus, but how deeply the erotica resonates with the consumer
― Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:59 (three years ago) link
and this is another issue with the community democratically deciding things -- and it gets into the identity politics stuff that a lot of leftists struggle with. ... let's say there are members of the community that would really like more diversity in the wolf erotica produced -- wolves that aren't white and grey, wolf erotica that isn't heteronormative or that is predominantly about wolfpenis being dominant ... well the majority of the community might be just fine with the current wolf erotica. And the current producers of the wolf erotica aren't that good at or comfortable with creating more diverse wolf erotica ... do we redistribute resources in order to produce more diverse wolf erotica and train queer-friendly wolf erotica producers in the art of wolf erotica production, even if that means a reduction in the quantity or quality of wolf erotica produced overall?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:07 (three years ago) link
and it is not unlikely at the community meetings that the more heteronormative wolfpenis dominant fans might use their privilege and numbers to make the marginalized wolf erotica fans be less assertive of their needs.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:10 (three years ago) link
I didn't mean to start some all small business lives matter thing, I mean of course there are good and ethical small business ownersI didn't mean to suggest otherwise or suggest that any family members or friends anyone might have are unethical. I know personally good small business owners.but as a whole it's not all your cool friend who has a vintage store, it's more guys named Rick from Orlando who own lawn care service and just added a fourth F150 to their fleet and own a pontoon boat and pay their workers shit.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:11 (three years ago) link
pretty sure mh is also familiar with Rick from Orlando ... and yeah ... there are a lot of Ricks from Orlando ... and the thing that Kate posted upthread about "power reveals" is really interesting to me. ... Part of where I'm coming from is working with small business owners trying to do the best with limited resources. ... Scarcity often makes people do bad things -- like what mh was saying about systemic problems and things like health insurance being tied to employment, when it would be easier if this was something provided by the government as basic welfare for its people as human beings.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:15 (three years ago) link
I feel like someone has to keep the pontoon industry afloat so the occasional non-douche can own one
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:16 (three years ago) link
also, Rick from Orlando is probably paying alimony to his ex-wife and has kids with substance abuse and mental health issues, partially derived from having shitty ass Rick from Orlando as a dad.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link
not all pontoon owners are douchebags, but many douchebags are pontoon owners
except my dad’s coworker Gary. Gary owns a cigarette boat that he uses in the Ozarks. mega-douchebag.
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link
where did Neanderthal go ... he probably has met the actual Rick from Orlando!
Most Orlando business owners are named Deke and will probably be cancelled by next week.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:19 (three years ago) link
my dad’s name is Rick and he is a small business owner
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:19 (three years ago) link
Orlando actually has a ton of shitty Trump gun humping dickflap owners running the bars here. Except for the downtown Irish pub
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:20 (three years ago) link
xp - is he never gonna give you up?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:20 (three years ago) link
One of whom took over a struggling bar that my friend had karaoke DJed at for 20+ years and they fired her so they could hire some young people with illegal bootleg karaoke files that would accept less money
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:21 (three years ago) link
I’m still relatively glad my friend didn’t buy a small town bar last year, for so, so many reasons
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:23 (three years ago) link
a friend of mine is a member of a worker-owned co-op restaurant and bar ... it has drama and problems
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:25 (three years ago) link
but nowhere near as bad as the one a few blocks up that was owned by a pedophile who fled Minnesota for here and then fled the country ... that place finally closed
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:26 (three years ago) link
but my friend's place hosted events for a leftist magazine which subsequently shut down after one of the editors was called out as a rapist
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:27 (three years ago) link
the magazine not the bar ... but they got called out for being/having been aligned with the magazine and the rapist
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:28 (three years ago) link
wait weren't we talking about wolf erotica?
― DJI, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:33 (three years ago) link
i feel like the ultimate uncool conservative belief is that Rick from Orlando is actually a great guy ... but we can go back to wolf erotica if you want
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:41 (three years ago) link
sarahell at 5:26 8 Jul 20but nowhere near as bad as the one a few blocks up that was owned by a pedophile who fled Minnesota for here and then fled the country ... that place finally closedgod, literal fucking demon that guy
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:42 (three years ago) link
I have a lot of Rick's from my small town that I grew up in, some are good and some are bad
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:43 (three years ago) link
i still can't believe he had the audacity, as a convicted pedophile, to name his bar "Small Wonder" -- like ... whoa dude.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:44 (three years ago) link
I know a Rick that pumped a lot of money into restoring an old abandoned gridiron so that it could host a youth flag football tournament last May that was looking for a new home.
they adorned it Rick's Spring Field
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:50 (three years ago) link
ooooooooooooh!!!!!
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:52 (three years ago) link
didn't know that Small Wonder detail, jfc
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:59 (three years ago) link
personally offended by yerac's choice of hypothetical
― singular wolf erotica producer (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 9 July 2020 01:58 (three years ago) link
I take no position on wolf erotica but I assume most people come by their hate and distrust of small business owners as a class (if not necessarily all of them as individuals) honestly, such as by working for a bunch of them. I know I did!
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Thursday, 9 July 2020 02:06 (three years ago) link
A friend who I’ve not seen in years is a real anarchist on IG yet also says he will ruin any business if he finds out that they don’t have Narcan on site. He also believes that he deserves the health insurance that public school teachers receive now that he has to home school his kid. Am I out of my mind?
― Yelploaf, Thursday, 9 July 2020 02:41 (three years ago) link
Not sure how you being out of your mind has anything to do with your acquaintance’s pretty normal opinions.
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Thursday, 9 July 2020 02:52 (three years ago) link
In the context of revealing my uncool conservative beliefs I think he’s completely wrong.
― Yelploaf, Thursday, 9 July 2020 02:54 (three years ago) link
nobody is “homeschooling”. what parents are doing could be charitably described as “holding on for dear life”. that said, everyone deserves good health insurance.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 9 July 2020 07:53 (three years ago) link
Everyone deserves good health insurance
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 9 July 2020 13:05 (three years ago) link
-Peter, Paul, and Mary
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Thursday, 9 July 2020 14:46 (three years ago) link
at what point, you mean, is the responsibility of the majority to de-marginalize the subaltern fulfilled? needs to be done on a case by case basis, frankly. you can't systematize it, can't construct some Grand Unified Theory of wolf erotica that can cover every conceivable case.
― Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 9 July 2020 16:56 (three years ago) link
i guess this as clear a signal as i'm every gonna get that it is finally the time unveil my wolf erotica theory
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 9 July 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link
motion that you guys shorten this phrase to "werotica"
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 9 July 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
dang, werotica already taken, and it redirects nudetube
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 9 July 2020 18:01 (three years ago) link
lycangrope
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Thursday, 9 July 2020 18:04 (three years ago) link
loborotica? or is that toohttp://pbs.twimg.com/media/BYuqZp4CIAAMGQR.jpg
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 9 July 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
slovenia was once under socialist teeth
― Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 9 July 2020 18:27 (three years ago) link
could probably file all the wolf erotica under omegaverse since there is already a market structure in place.
― Yerac, Thursday, 9 July 2020 18:35 (three years ago) link
I mean, who could resist this
https://assets.realclear.com/images/41/414189.jpg
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 9 July 2020 18:58 (three years ago) link
blitzerotica
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 9 July 2020 19:01 (three years ago) link
Uncool conservative belief: the more I decipher this, the less I wish I had
so here are some thoughts about "online discourse" / "free speech"something that continues to be chronically under-examined is that speech itself has been radically transformed through the displacement and fragmentation of traditional subjectivity, the fracturing / proliferation of discursive methods, and an almost total lack of clarity of what we mean by "public" in terms of where, exactly, speech acts occur. our increasing inter-connectedness and the rapid transmission of information mask a deeply dehumanizing estrangement. our notions of liberty and self-determination are increasingly unhelpful, and not merely because we've learned to be complicit in de-historicizing and mythologizing eighteenth-century ideology. it's also because the majority of our conversations — and in the case of some, the majority of lived experience — occur online, in commons which were long ago enclosed; the reasons for our existence there, and what we may have to say, are largely irrelevant to the people who facilitate our interactions. what it means to stick up for our "values" and fight for "liberty" is, in this sense, an increasingly fraught problem: every step forward entails further entrenchment in a dizzying entanglement of permissions and prohibitions, asymmetrical power relations, new and hidden modes of subjugation and coercion — all while we pretend that our online personas and statements merely refer back to a world which in fact longer exists.it's worth remembering re: social media platforms that the user experience itself is designed to emphasize and reinforce precisely those aspects of our personality / humanity that devalue contemplation, empathy, even honesty. they replicate patterns of behavior that ensure continued engagement, then monitor those behaviors and sell the data to people who further manipulate us. this is the central power dynamic of almost all online discourse. meanwhile free speech, and the broader notion of liberalism, aren't just ideas; it's ideology and a continually reiterated (and updated) foundational myth with a history fraught with racism and violent subjugation that continue to inform and / or preclude, at a structural level, the very possibilities for speech and community.the unifying aspect of liberal speech is hysteria, the continual need to reiterate the delusion that favored institutions and positions of leadership are not largely symbolic. the very notion of a culture war seeks to affirm this, to displace our energy into an arena where nothing has any real political consequence. even purportedly leftist notions of intersectionality and "centering" e.g. black or trans voices seem to fail to take into account a basic psycho-political geography, as if a recognition of problematic elements is sufficient for their removal and some sort of nebulous substitution of more humane models for radical liberation and solidarity. what's ignored is that we've been taught, and encouraged, to regard increased visibility as a concomitant component of social and political progress. the commodification and endless replication / dispersion of categories of identity reinforces the notion that the real battleground is the sphere of legislation, court rulings, and other mechanisms of power that only ever seem to replicate the same mechanisms of repression that we ought to seek to undermine, bypass, and ultimately overcome through collective political destabilization.while recognizing the importance of language for projects of self-determination — for the affirmation of underrepresented categories and for a sincere fight to craft a world in which our differential existences can be lived in hospitable conditions — do we not wish to consider that the conversations which are most amplified are almost always re-framed as projects which, in some way, "complete" a mythical project of liberation that was flawed, incomplete, but for some reason still worth sticking up for ? why do we continue to fetishize outmoded conceptualizations of liberation while seemingly ignoring the fact that this sort of discourse is inherently a source of violence itself ? and finally, how do we re-claim political autonomy when our avenues of "self-expression" have been cynically marginalized and perverted in such a way that dissent only ever entails a new, novel category for marketing the same old bullshit ?these thoughts are not complete or fully thought through — just wanted to raise some questions i haven't heard being asked elsewhere. i'm open to suggestions for further reading.― budo jeru, Friday, 10 July 2020 23:34 (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
something that continues to be chronically under-examined is that speech itself has been radically transformed through the displacement and fragmentation of traditional subjectivity, the fracturing / proliferation of discursive methods, and an almost total lack of clarity of what we mean by "public" in terms of where, exactly, speech acts occur. our increasing inter-connectedness and the rapid transmission of information mask a deeply dehumanizing estrangement. our notions of liberty and self-determination are increasingly unhelpful, and not merely because we've learned to be complicit in de-historicizing and mythologizing eighteenth-century ideology. it's also because the majority of our conversations — and in the case of some, the majority of lived experience — occur online, in commons which were long ago enclosed; the reasons for our existence there, and what we may have to say, are largely irrelevant to the people who facilitate our interactions. what it means to stick up for our "values" and fight for "liberty" is, in this sense, an increasingly fraught problem: every step forward entails further entrenchment in a dizzying entanglement of permissions and prohibitions, asymmetrical power relations, new and hidden modes of subjugation and coercion — all while we pretend that our online personas and statements merely refer back to a world which in fact longer exists.
it's worth remembering re: social media platforms that the user experience itself is designed to emphasize and reinforce precisely those aspects of our personality / humanity that devalue contemplation, empathy, even honesty. they replicate patterns of behavior that ensure continued engagement, then monitor those behaviors and sell the data to people who further manipulate us. this is the central power dynamic of almost all online discourse. meanwhile free speech, and the broader notion of liberalism, aren't just ideas; it's ideology and a continually reiterated (and updated) foundational myth with a history fraught with racism and violent subjugation that continue to inform and / or preclude, at a structural level, the very possibilities for speech and community.
the unifying aspect of liberal speech is hysteria, the continual need to reiterate the delusion that favored institutions and positions of leadership are not largely symbolic. the very notion of a culture war seeks to affirm this, to displace our energy into an arena where nothing has any real political consequence. even purportedly leftist notions of intersectionality and "centering" e.g. black or trans voices seem to fail to take into account a basic psycho-political geography, as if a recognition of problematic elements is sufficient for their removal and some sort of nebulous substitution of more humane models for radical liberation and solidarity. what's ignored is that we've been taught, and encouraged, to regard increased visibility as a concomitant component of social and political progress. the commodification and endless replication / dispersion of categories of identity reinforces the notion that the real battleground is the sphere of legislation, court rulings, and other mechanisms of power that only ever seem to replicate the same mechanisms of repression that we ought to seek to undermine, bypass, and ultimately overcome through collective political destabilization.
while recognizing the importance of language for projects of self-determination — for the affirmation of underrepresented categories and for a sincere fight to craft a world in which our differential existences can be lived in hospitable conditions — do we not wish to consider that the conversations which are most amplified are almost always re-framed as projects which, in some way, "complete" a mythical project of liberation that was flawed, incomplete, but for some reason still worth sticking up for ? why do we continue to fetishize outmoded conceptualizations of liberation while seemingly ignoring the fact that this sort of discourse is inherently a source of violence itself ? and finally, how do we re-claim political autonomy when our avenues of "self-expression" have been cynically marginalized and perverted in such a way that dissent only ever entails a new, novel category for marketing the same old bullshit ?
these thoughts are not complete or fully thought through — just wanted to raise some questions i haven't heard being asked elsewhere. i'm open to suggestions for further reading.
― budo jeru, Friday, 10 July 2020 23:34 (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
― imago, Sunday, 12 July 2020 19:43 (three years ago) link
18th century ideology contained some dope ass ideas tho
― sarahell, Sunday, 12 July 2020 19:54 (three years ago) link
Here's a hot take: the culture of calling out "Karens" is actually all about being a Karen -- delighting in tattling on others
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 12 July 2020 21:55 (three years ago) link
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/17/USAT/7620a49d-39e9-4db9-a96c-89f3d1deb1ae-facebookreact2.png
― carin' (map), Sunday, 12 July 2020 22:01 (three years ago) link
I mean...I don't think the appropriate response to someone who is videoing their neighbor call the cops on them and reporting a fake assault is "STOP SNITCHIN'", but ymmv
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Monday, 13 July 2020 00:52 (three years ago) link
No I agree these people should be called out, I’m more speaking about what the phenomenon does for its participants than whether it should be done.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 13 July 2020 01:15 (three years ago) link
it's kinda like 17th century ideology, that the 18th century was like ... wtf is wrong with you petty ass people and your puritanical bullshit?!
― sarahell, Monday, 13 July 2020 18:46 (three years ago) link
I think the problem is that the truly "karen" behavior (i.e. putting a person of color's safety and even life potentially at risk by calling cops for nothing or for petty bullshit) doesn't really have any existing mechanism to deter it or punish it -- there's no criminal statute that would be adequate, even if such a statute would be enforced, which it likely wouldn't. So there's a case for internet vigilante justice, but at some point it seems like it just turns into delight at throwing rotten fruit at someone, not to mention that by embodying systemic racism in "Karen" we can kind of make a human sacrifice to cleanse our sins.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 13 July 2020 18:50 (three years ago) link
scarlet K
― sarahell, Monday, 13 July 2020 18:52 (three years ago) link
The first time a Black female friend called a white coworker "Karen" or "Brenda" anecdotally I was in gales of laughter about it. I didn't realize (two years ago!) that it was already a term that referred to something specific, I just thought she was deliciously sassing her coworker.
― wet pockets (flamboyant goon tie included), Monday, 13 July 2020 19:32 (three years ago) link
it was definitely a good zing for a while
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 13 July 2020 19:42 (three years ago) link
cleaning your ears with cotton swabs is fine unless you’re being a terrible clumsy doofus and trying to actually jam it in the canal.
― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 2 September 2020 18:05 (three years ago) link
-bob marley
― Neanderthal, Wednesday, 2 September 2020 18:31 (three years ago) link
I will join your uncool conservative party, because otm.
― Monte Scampino (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 2 September 2020 18:33 (three years ago) link
i'm a little paranoid about sticking cotton swabs in my ear, so i wrap a bit of extra-soft, natural cotton around the tip of the swab just to soften it up a little before going in
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 2 September 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
When a hill is died upon so passionately it suggests a paraphilia
― Scampo No. 5 (wins), Wednesday, 2 September 2020 18:35 (three years ago) link
(That’s amore)
― Scampo No. 5 (wins), Wednesday, 2 September 2020 18:37 (three years ago) link
proper bants
― sarahell, Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:10 (three years ago) link
cargo pants
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:13 (three years ago) link
mambo dance
right wing rants
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:21 (three years ago) link
Like I use cotton swabs to clean electronics but only because they're already here because otherwise I would just use something else, so I don't understand why people are buying cotton swabs or why they exist at all if people aren't generally using them to clean out their ear holes. Which I admittedly do. Mostly to own the libs.
― Don't be such an idot. (Old Lunch), Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:23 (three years ago) link
why are you using cotton swabs to clean electronics? ... unless you are talking about the sound heads on a reel to reel tape machine ... not ideal if you are working in a tight space as sometimes bits of the swabs will come off and then you may have clean surfaces but you have bits of white fluff in your electronics which creates other problems.
― sarahell, Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:41 (three years ago) link
I use them all the time to clean up solder flux, etc. There are fancy ones that leave less fluff, but the regular ones work fine, for the most part.
― DJI, Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:49 (three years ago) link
Yes, I spring for the premium swabs (premaswabs, as I call them) so swab dander is never an issue.
― Don't be such an idot. (Old Lunch), Thursday, 3 September 2020 15:52 (three years ago) link
Swab Dander is my porn name
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:06 (three years ago) link
that is so hot
― syphilitic wolf prose errata (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:08 (three years ago) link
just wrapped My Uncool Conservative Beliefs 8
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:13 (three years ago) link
excellent work in (C)ANAL ADVENTURES btw
― syphilitic wolf prose errata (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:16 (three years ago) link
this is the quality ilx content that makes me a satisfied gold subscriber
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:44 (three years ago) link
Big fan of Just the Q-Tip
― Don't be such an idot. (Old Lunch), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
https://youtu.be/H-5fknNjH0M
― syphilitic wolf prose errata (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
http://youtu.be/H-5fknNjH0M
― syphilitic wolf prose errata (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 3 September 2020 16:59 (three years ago) link
whatever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-5fknNjH0M
― No mean feat. DaBaby (breastcrawl), Thursday, 3 September 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
ta
― syphilitic wolf prose errata (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 3 September 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
oh that's not Eddie Money ...
― sarahell, Thursday, 3 September 2020 17:56 (three years ago) link
A man covered his face with tattoos and turned his eyes black. He says it cost him his kindergarten teaching job
This man is an idiot and an attention whore (and also CNN is, as always, a complete garbage 'news' organization burying the lede on this non-story about someone who remains employed as a teacher for all other grades but was only transitioned away from the five-year-olds that he seems to have gone out of his way to scare the shit out of).
― OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Monday, 28 September 2020 22:05 (three years ago) link
tbh i would've likely loved having him as a kindergarten teacher
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 02:19 (three years ago) link
I hate him
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 02:30 (three years ago) link
He said he hoped to show his pupils that they should accept people who are different from the norm.
wait how is anybody supposed to make out his pupils anymore
― error prone wolf syndicate (Hadrian VIII), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 03:07 (three years ago) link
Old Lunch otm on both points.
On the other hand, the guy looks pretty cool/terrifying and should definitely pursue a career as an extreme music front man.
― beard papa, Tuesday, 29 September 2020 17:03 (three years ago) link
From a customer service standpoint, every single interaction I have ever had with someone who works in government has landed on a spectrum from grossly disappointing to enraging. Social security, inspections & permits, police, department of transportation, traffic engineering, dept of natural resources. All utterly useless stupid clods when not actively deceptive and evil. I am definitely beginning to understand why someone would want to do away with the whole thing. Like, maybe my faith in the power of strong government is magical thinking. Something I want to be true to salve my horror at being ineffective at changing anything by myself.
― 📺👁️ (peace, man), Friday, 2 October 2020 14:24 (three years ago) link
I’m sorry Peace,Man that you had those experiences. As a lifelong local government official I have tried to treat every citizen seriously and with the highest professionalism.
― Boring, Maryland, Friday, 2 October 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
Whenever someone rants to me about incompetence in government, it fuels my belief that it comes down to a lack of funding.
― beard papa, Friday, 2 October 2020 18:40 (three years ago) link
I envy that you are able to sustain this belief and have not had numerous experiences to the contrary. There are definitely departments and agencies where this is the case, though. There are others that have plenty of funding but are driven by incompetence, laziness, and a culture of buck-passing. Somewhere there has to be City Building Departments that actually work to encourage building, as opposed to, delaying and preventing building, and even repairing of existing buildings !!! Maybe this is my penchant for championing the underdog and not living in places where things work well because maybe those places are also boring? Idk
― sarahell, Friday, 2 October 2020 20:21 (three years ago) link
people should definitely be paid to make things harder tho. j/k. maybe it's lack of funding but i think the bigger problem is that most people are forced to work and they could not care less nor should they.
― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Friday, 2 October 2020 20:29 (three years ago) link
yes, I think apathy is related to perceived laziness. otm
― sarahell, Friday, 2 October 2020 20:31 (three years ago) link
I find it hard to believe that female candidates actually get interrupted more than male candidates during debates. We just watched Trump literally not let Biden get a complete sentence in for much of the debate. But even removing that outlier I’d bet that Harris didn’t get interrupted more than the average national candidate in a debate.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 9 October 2020 12:41 (three years ago) link
Dunno about that, but it certainly feels like Democratic candidates get interrupted more often.
― pomenitul, Friday, 9 October 2020 12:42 (three years ago) link
In any case it seemed weird to me that that was the takeaway that took hold when the presidential debate was just one long string of interruptions.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 9 October 2020 12:54 (three years ago) link
According to CNN's clock, they had about equal speaking time - but that's not necessarily a good measure of who interrupted whom, how long they were both trying to speak, or the extent to which Pence spoke over Harris.
That said, I am not sure that this can or should be measured quantitatively. It's not whether you interrupt but how you interrupt, when you interrupt, what you say, how respectful or dismissive you are. Lots of people perceive a longstanding, persistent imbalance. As a white dude I'm not sure I should be the person to tell them they're wrong.
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 9 October 2020 12:58 (three years ago) link
I mean the bigger problem wrt these debates in general is that the moderators moderate jack shit.
― OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Friday, 9 October 2020 12:59 (three years ago) link
high school parliamentary style debating has better moderation
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Friday, 9 October 2020 13:11 (three years ago) link
ILX does too OHHHHHHH
― LaRusso Auto (Neanderthal), Friday, 9 October 2020 13:22 (three years ago) link
I think the whole format is stupid and broken, but I have a little more sympathy with the people who attempt to moderate than most do.
Expecting a journalist or TV host or radio personality to wrangle the egos of people who (by definition) believe they should have the most powerful job in the world is a losing battle. No one who seeks the presidency is likely to be pliable, obedient, polite, and yielding. It's not in their nature. If you seek high political office it's because you think of yourself as a leader, as someone who is (or ought to be) in charge of the conversation. Not obeisant to the instructions of someone who works for CNN or whatever.
Hate to be all devil's avocado on y'all, but it's a reasonable question to ask how/why being "moderatable" is a necessary skill for political office.
That said, I do believe that politicians should be accountable to voters. A politician who appears to listen to - and really answers - questions from common people is admirable. A politician who doesn't, isn't. Let them show who they are, and we will decide accordingly what we value and what we care about.
In a way I agree with Susan Page: if a politician takes questions seriously and gives thoughtful answers, that's important information. If a politician doesn't take a question seriously or won't / can't answer a question, that in itself is valuable information as well.
If you're responsive and thoughtful, it can and should be a point in your favor with people who value that. If you're rude and interrupty and evasive, you can lose voters who are turned off by that. However, you may keep (or gain) the votes of those who perceive your behavior as strength or as impatience with the framing of the questions. That sucks but it is (as they say) what it is.
Finally, the stronger moderation that you seem to want will inevitably get politicized. It will be used to provide evidence of bias (and it has!). It becomes another cudgel to beat the media with. No matter how even-handed and fair a moderator strives to be. So they're damned if they moderate, and damned if they don't moderate.
― nonsensei (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 9 October 2020 13:34 (three years ago) link
the format for these things renders them useless. Anybody can give a canned answer in 2 minutes time.
I wrote this in another thread, but I really think a good system would be like speed chess. Give each candaidate on allotment of time—say, 45 mins—and they can budget it however they like. Candidates could save time for issues they feel deserve more attention, and ssave us all the nonsense running-out-the-clock businees with all the interruptions.
― error prone wolf syndicate (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 9 October 2020 14:45 (three years ago) link
Want to spend 20 minutes ranting about your campaign being spied on? Go for it! And then you'll have to shut up when the opposition is addressing something real
― error prone wolf syndicate (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 9 October 2020 14:47 (three years ago) link
I think its gross when rappers refer to the female genitalia as a "monkey"
― Thoia Thoing, Maryland (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 October 2020 15:01 (three years ago) link
E-40's "U and Dat" and David Banner's "Play" were both Top 20 Billboard hits!
― Thoia Thoing, Maryland (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 October 2020 15:03 (three years ago) link
xp rappers okay but what about Peter Gabriel
― error prone wolf syndicate (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 9 October 2020 15:04 (three years ago) link
Shocking!
― Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Friday, 9 October 2020 15:22 (three years ago) link
I really think a good system would be like speed chess. Give each candaidate on allotment of time—say, 45 mins—and they can budget it however they like. this is how they do it in France. they even have a little Jeopardy-style screen on each candidate’s podium that shows their remaining time.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 9 October 2020 15:38 (three years ago) link
whiney, you okay?
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 9 October 2020 17:49 (three years ago) link
From a customer service standpoint, every single interaction I have ever had with someone who works in government has landed on a spectrum from grossly disappointing to enraging. Social security, inspections & permits, police, department of transportation, traffic engineering, dept of natural resources. All utterly useless stupid clods when not actively deceptive and evil. I am definitely beginning to understand why someone would want to do away with the whole thing. Like, maybe my faith in the power of strong government is magical thinking. Something I want to be true to salve my horror at being ineffective at changing anything by myself.― 📺👁️ (peace, man), Friday, October 2, 2020 10:24 AM (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink
― 📺👁️ (peace, man), Friday, October 2, 2020 10:24 AM (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink
Forgot that I had a really nice interaction with a county park ranger this summer when a bridge went out on a trail my family hikes on. I want to give credit to him for getting back to me quickly, asking the right questions, and solving the problem. Also, at the MVA earlier this month, I brought some of the wrong documentation along when I was trying to get my son's learner's permit and the lady at the counter quietly let us slide. Just want to acknowledge these guys. Really do feel like they are a rare breed though.
― peace, man, Tuesday, 24 November 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
fwiw, i worked in the govt for 7 years (joe biden thread connection - "because i'm as evil as joe biden is and obama was, obviously") and found the staff to be similar to everywhere else i've ever worked: some were amazing, some were terrible and some were among the best people i've ever met, with many gradations between. there's not some sort of test when you get into the government which guarantees you're an asshole.
also, i'll say this, though i'll stress up front that this is what public servants sign up for and expect: when a lot of people contact the government (over the phone, in person, whatever) they are doing so because they're in a tough spot, they're angry, they've been trying to figure out who to talk to and keep getting passed around, etc. they are pissed, and understandably so. however, due to the way large bureaucracies work, the person who ends up picking may very well have no idea how to help the person, other than to offer another generic phone line where someone helpful may or may not be helpful. it fucking sucks for everyone involved (especially the people who have been let down by the State).
it's not about the evil or goodness of the people who are asking, or the people who are responding. it's the circumstances they both find themselves in. switch the government worker around with the person struggling, and you'll likely find the same frustrating interactions taking place
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 24 November 2020 19:43 (three years ago) link
KMotmfm
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 24 November 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
i work for the govt in a customer service capacity and have people tell me to die on a weekly basis. its tedious. my uncool conservative belief is that even in routine bureaucratic interactions, a huge majority of people go into customer service interactions with govt employees with aggressive & dehumanizing attitudes that they dont normally carry into similar private-sector interactions with, say, their gym or whatever, because of deeply baked-in ideas about govt employees being lazy assholes "because they cant get fired", etc. Similar to people who rag on teachers for "having summers off".
― turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 24 November 2020 20:50 (three years ago) link
truthbomb: most people at most jobs are the same
― turn the jawhatthefuckever on (One Eye Open), Tuesday, 24 November 2020 20:52 (three years ago) link
Otm on both counts
― brimstead, Tuesday, 24 November 2020 20:53 (three years ago) link
my experience is that in many cases, the workers who interact with the public don't have very much power and latitude to do things. It is built into the bureaucratic system.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 25 November 2020 04:27 (three years ago) link
it is this system and its variants that created Karens.
A series of excellent posts
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 25 November 2020 05:43 (three years ago) link
Labor compensation/rights only rise when there is a scarcity of labor compared to capital. Expanded legal immigration (incl H1B visas for skilled workers) and free trade (forcing Americans to compete with billions in the developing world) have both harmed Americans in the 99% and the labor movement, while benefiting primarily those that direct capital flows in 1%.
Zoom out far enough, and Trumpism was an irrational cult of personality attached to a recognition that tremendous harm to US citizens has come from trade agreements and excess immigration. The villains in the 90s were the GOP and DLC aligned Dems: in the congressional votes progressive Dems opposed NAFTA, opposed most favored nation trade status for China. Progressives shouldn't have to pretend these were good for US citizens.
― Advanced Doomscroller (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 25 November 2020 14:10 (three years ago) link
I compare these hapless employees to those who work for baggage claim departments. They spend 10 hours a day getting yelled at by travelers with lost luggage, never getting complimented.
― Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 November 2020 14:17 (three years ago) link
I honestly feel we should stop looking to Buddhist monks for the key to inner peace and centeredness when the world around you is shitty and loud and start instead asking baggage claim clerks and airport gate agents
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 27 November 2020 02:39 (three years ago) link
― Advanced Doomscroller (Sanpaku), Wednesday, November 25, 2020 6:10 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
a lot of Americans are legal immigrants, dickhead
― Politically homely (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 November 2020 02:54 (three years ago) link
"legal" that should be
― Politically homely (jim in vancouver), Friday, 27 November 2020 02:55 (three years ago) link
yeah i didn’t even want to get into all that but i’m glad someone is
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 27 November 2020 10:52 (three years ago) link
This is the uncool conservative beliefs thread ...
― sarahell, Friday, 27 November 2020 16:39 (three years ago) link
Fascism is even less cool
― is right unfortunately (silby), Friday, 27 November 2020 16:40 (three years ago) link
Even Hitler Imported Guest Workers
― sarahell, Friday, 27 November 2020 16:57 (three years ago) link
o_O
― is right unfortunately (silby), Friday, 27 November 2020 17:05 (three years ago) link
I'm reading "The Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze -- it is about Hitlerian economics
― sarahell, Friday, 27 November 2020 17:28 (three years ago) link
The development of fracking is overall a good thing
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 30 November 2020 20:52 (three years ago) link
I mean I can't complain that it keeps me supplied with cheap natural gas for cooking with
― is right unfortunately (silby), Monday, 30 November 2020 20:53 (three years ago) link
the kind of wildcat strike of a take this thread needed
― imago, Monday, 30 November 2020 20:56 (three years ago) link
Calling a white person who lives in the US a "colonizer" is stupid
― groovemaaan, Friday, 4 December 2020 22:15 (three years ago) link
despite the risk of it being snatched by a bandit, the best way to cool off a freshly-baked pie is still to set it on a good old fashioned open windowsill, no matter what elon musk says
― the burrito that defined a generation, Sunday, 13 December 2020 20:23 (three years ago) link
one of these is not like the other:
A hundred years apart but the same angst - on the left Edward Munch (1919) on the right Tracey Emin today. A cathartic exhibition @royalacademy pic.twitter.com/cgA9uMWFhz— Philip Mould (@philipmould) December 13, 2020
― ledge, Monday, 14 December 2020 10:01 (three years ago) link
is that actually how they were installed? Is that some weird angle they were photographed at? Horrible, I say -- the centers don't appear to be aligned ... my conservative belief
― sarahell, Monday, 14 December 2020 17:48 (three years ago) link
nah you can see the frame cut off in the Emin
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Monday, 14 December 2020 17:49 (three years ago) link
Agree that fracking is a "net" good thing, especially if properly regulated. Much of the progress in replacing coal (more than halving greenhouse emissions), and building out renewable energy over the past 15 years in the U.S. was only economic because natural gas was < $4/mmBTU, rather than the $15+ it was headed towards in the 00s. Till longer term electricity storage comes down in price, every MW of renewables is backed up with a MW natural gas plant on standby. The harms (intrinsic to fracking) come from poor wastewater disposal, and like all natural gas production, there should be wellhead monitors for methane leaks.
xp Jim: I'm talking about legal immigration, too. Want better conditions for labor? Make it scarce compared to capital.
― A Like Supreme (Sanpaku), Monday, 14 December 2020 18:02 (three years ago) link
I know you're talking about "legal" immigration too, you dolt.
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Monday, 14 December 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link
your "just asking questions" rhetoric is the "intellectual" equivalent of the brick through the window my parents got as a young couple because my dad was a refugee
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Monday, 14 December 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link
Sanpaku, your earlier post posits that "legal" immigrants and Americans are distinct categories -- as both of those things: fuck you and your moral vacuity pretending to be rationality.
― loose Orwellian mobs (rob), Monday, 14 December 2020 18:22 (three years ago) link
Sanpaku: making labor scarce since _____
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 14 December 2020 20:17 (three years ago) link
1934?
Are you guys willfully misreading Sanpaku? People here on H1-B Visas are not Americans and would not refer to themselves as Americans, any moreso than a person here on a student visa.
Moreover, Sanpaku only referred to "Americans" in connection with the clause of his sentence about "free trade," i.e. forcing Americans to compete with people in other countries.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:29 (three years ago) link
I guess to be fair he said "legal immigration including..." so maybe I misread lol
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:30 (three years ago) link
Want better conditions for labor? Make it scarce compared to capital
i'd like to gently suggest that this is a nonsense in the context of capitalist market economics
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:32 (three years ago) link
Anyway, I think his larger point stands irrespective of semantics. My take on it is that the problem comes not from "immigration" per se, but from the use of immigration to force an unlevel playing field and reduce wages. H-1B visas are nothing other than that.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:33 (three years ago) link
every reference to immigration as being bad because it distorts the labour market relies on ignoring the point that capitalism depends on distorting the labour market, by whatever means available
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:34 (three years ago) link
however you word it, it's fascist propaganda
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:36 (three years ago) link
that's silly
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:36 (three years ago) link
Was Marx a fascist?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:37 (three years ago) link
Groucho or Harpo?
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:37 (three years ago) link
is it? or is the notion of a national labour market in a massively globalized economy where the proletariat doesn't even belong to the nation that provides the majority of a nation's commodities silly?
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:38 (three years ago) link
i can comfortably agree with a lot of Marx's thought and recognise that he was analyzing societies that were radically different to today's societies.
i can also watch striking workers complain about immigrant labour on tv while dressed head to toe in clothes manufactured outside their own nation
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:40 (three years ago) link
Marx didn't give much of one fuck about the Nation State
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:41 (three years ago) link
Let me know when you crack the problem of organizing labor on a global scale. Until then we're stuck with the nation state.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:43 (three years ago) link
that's a different question, but socialism is international or it's meaningless. immigration isn't a cause of low wages any more than population growth is.
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:45 (three years ago) link
or perhaps more relevantly, any more than industrialisation or mechanisation is.
Also, Sanpaku's whole point was to recognize the ways in which these forces have impacted the standard of living of Americans and that that in turn gave Trump an issue to seize. I don't think the answer to that is to deafly say "actually immigration is good," it's to concretely show Americans how their standards of living can be improved without making enemies out of immigrants. One of those ways would actually be MORE legal immigration, but on a level playing field and one that makes citizenship easier to attain rather than a dual-track guest worker type system.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:46 (three years ago) link
acknowleding legitimate concerns about immigration has never been a force for good
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:47 (three years ago) link
i think part of the problem is that the genuine arguments in favor of immigration get hijacked by neoliberal think tank types who really do just want to use immigration to push down wages. The way that is done is by creating a class of immigrants that doesn't have full rights and is scared to organize or fight back because, among other things, they might be deported. That's what has actually happened over the past few decades.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:50 (three years ago) link
Actually immigration is good and Sanpaku is a fascist
― is right unfortunately (silby), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:51 (three years ago) link
i'm happy to accept Sanpaku isn't a fascist if they say so, they're just repeating fascist tropes in this instance
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:53 (three years ago) link
immigration isn't good or bad
― oscar bravo, Monday, 14 December 2020 22:54 (three years ago) link
silby had Sanpaku’s number the first time tbh
― scampostiltskin (gyac), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:55 (three years ago) link
yall i knew sanpaku was full of shit years agin, just saying
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:56 (three years ago) link
ago, agin and agin
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:57 (three years ago) link
agog
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:57 (three years ago) link
his demos were better
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:58 (three years ago) link
you guys are being ridiculous. You're saying "repeating fascist tropes" as if saying anything that has tinges of something fascists also say is equivalent to uttering a spell that conjures up fascism.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 22:59 (three years ago) link
i'm saying that talking about immigration as problematic outside of any concept of capitalist exploitation is using the language of the far right. i specifically quoted this
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:03 (three years ago) link
sanpaku specifically referred to legal immigration in general so we can talk about temporary foreign worker visas til the cows come home but he's talking about immigration as per se a bad thing for Americans (not including those pesky immigrant Americans naturally)
as to the economic arguments. one country pursuing protectionism while the global economy is defined by free trade is a non-starter for obvious reasons. and as to restriction of immigration as an economic panacea: I guess we could look to Japan, a famously low immigration society, their economy has only been stagnating since ... 1990
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:04 (three years ago) link
and this is still predicated on some notion that a nation's labour is somehow intended to supply the needs of that nation itself? when has that ever been true?
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:05 (three years ago) link
lol @ taking the idea of a "global economy defined by free trade" at face value
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:08 (three years ago) link
also lol @ turning this into a strawman about "restriction of immigration as an economic panacea"
do u believe in LOLs
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:09 (three years ago) link
can't see anybody doing that, can see a couple of people using the idea of immigration as neoliberal tool for wage control
― Uptown Top Scamping (Noodle Vague), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:09 (three years ago) link
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, December 14, 2020 3:08 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, December 14, 2020 3:08 PM (twenty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
how about fuck off
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:10 (three years ago) link
man alive showing his arse on yet another thread about how nefarious foreigns hurt the indigenous people is it? Well I fucking never.
― scampostiltskin (gyac), Monday, 14 December 2020 23:11 (three years ago) link
how nefarious foreigns hurt the indigenous people
Feeling very proud of my immigrant powers rn.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 15 December 2020 00:36 (three years ago) link
I guess we could look to Japan, a famously low immigration society, their economy has only been stagnating since ... 1990
Worth it to maintain a pure ecosystem, amirite?
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 15 December 2020 01:41 (three years ago) link
Kind of struggling to see where gyac got "nefarious foreigns" from MORE legal immigration, but on a level playing field and one that makes citizenship easier to attain rather than a dual-track guest worker type system.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 15 December 2020 03:09 (three years ago) link
probably your defending of Sanpaku and then laughing at people who’ve explained upthread why the points being raised are so concerning, happy to help
― scampostiltskin (gyac), Tuesday, 15 December 2020 07:07 (three years ago) link
the fact that it's become a liberal (in the left-liberal sense) thing to tout "a global economy defined by free trade" is deserving of ridicule and scorn. It's exactly what's wrong with Democrats today.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 15:55 (three years ago) link
I really like Pete Buttigieg and think his rise in politics is a happy development, I'm not even sure that's a conservative belief but it's definitely uncool
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link
xp I was referring to the human cost of that kind of rhetoric, as mentioned by Jim.
― scampostiltskin (gyac), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 17:18 (three years ago) link
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Wednesday, December 16, 2020 12:13 PM (twenty-one minutes ago
mckinsey needs representation on the national stage, agreed
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 16 December 2020 17:35 (three years ago) link
I really like Pete Buttigieg and think his rise in politics is a happy development,
Happy for who? His AI?
― The Battle of Taylor Swift's "Evermore" (PBKR), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 17:36 (three years ago) link
lol this was never gonna be THAT safe a space
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, December 16, 2020 7:55 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
im not "touting it "and am not a liberal. the issue is that you can't opt out from existing in the global economy, so the stance of "just don't take part in trade deals like everyone else" doesn't really hold water for me. the Lexit argument in the uk, which didn't have many adherents, was of this ilk. the argument goes something like"
opt out of the crony capitalist organization the EU??????socialism in the UK and better pay and standards of living for workers
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 17:45 (three years ago) link
i don’t have strong feelings about pete either way but the ire towards him on twitter is so overblown it makes me want to contraristan
― flopson, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link
non-service dogs should never be allowed in any business ever**pet grooming, veterinarian clinics etc excepted
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:18 (three years ago) link
i wanna weigh in on Sankaku man alive vs jim immigration debate but im submitting a paper tonight so it’ll have to wait a day or 2 but tl;dr jim is correct (although imo it’s way out of line to call them fascists). there’s actually virtually no evidence that immigration pushes down wages. it’s depressingly ironic to me that hurting and sampaku are using the same simplistic “demand and supply” arguments that i bang my head against the wall at conservative labor economists for using. however as per usual u are all way too up your own asses with the “no you’re the neoliberal” “actually we should abolish the nation state and have aglobal communist order” “and yet you live within a nation state” circular oneupmanship to understand anything
― flopson, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:28 (three years ago) link
I only called Sanpaku a fascist. I don't think man alive is a fascist. I do think Sanpaku is a fascist and it's not out of line.
― is right unfortunately (silby), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
this is the guy who likes to daydream about resource wars and nods approvingly at the Xi regime mind you
― is right unfortunately (silby), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:35 (three years ago) link
im saying this based on the post in question, not familiar with his posts in other threads
― flopson, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:49 (three years ago) link
There is only #onethread
― is right unfortunately (silby), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 18:55 (three years ago) link
flopson otm as usual
― the late great, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 19:30 (three years ago) link
― flopson, Wednesday, December 16, 2020 1:12 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
This is the first good thing about Twitter I have ever heard.
― The Battle of Taylor Swift's "Evermore" (PBKR), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 20:56 (three years ago) link
socialism is international or it's meaningless.
I think this is why there are a lot of "liberals" and "moderates" ... they have concluded that it is impossible to have international socialism and thus it is meaningless, and hence, we make do
― sarahell, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:36 (three years ago) link
tlg otm as usual
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:42 (three years ago) link
We would like to remind you that the designation, "fascist" should be reserved for actual fascists such as Hitler.
Viele Dank
― someone who cares about semantics, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:45 (three years ago) link
I am otm as usual.
― Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:45 (three years ago) link
Feel no qualms about labeling Sanpaku a fascist, whatsoever.
― is right unfortunately (silby), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:47 (three years ago) link
Dear silby,
Please reconsider your qualms
Warmest Regards
― Rhonda!, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:51 (three years ago) link
can we go back to eephus liking PB and flopson wanting to contraristan him for a sec? all i have to say to that bullshit is... gtfo of here with it
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:52 (three years ago) link
what's wrong with peanut butter?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:53 (three years ago) link
that's what i asked your mom
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:54 (three years ago) link
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
― sarahell, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:54 (three years ago) link
*wipes brow after that sick burn* i'm j/k
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:55 (three years ago) link
tried to throw a dog hot take to distract from the clusterfuck, to no avail
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:55 (three years ago) link
oh i missed that one and have to say i agree
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:58 (three years ago) link
brb writing working on a hot dog take
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:59 (three years ago) link
Sorry ums, uncool but not really conservative imo
― loose Orwellian mobs (rob), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:59 (three years ago) link
dogs are given way too much leeway in public. people who have their dogs off-leash in any public area aside from strictly designated and fenced-in places like dog parks are savages imo.
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 21:59 (three years ago) link
All the frozen dog piss I saw on my walk today did make me feel a little uncool
― loose Orwellian mobs (rob), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:03 (three years ago) link
I thought it was cool how people routinely bring their dog to the pub in the UK. It helps that they're better behaved than in any other country I've been to, like nary a bark.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:05 (three years ago) link
ARE Bri'ish dogs, best dogs in the world, mate
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:06 (three years ago) link
Pub dogs are not normal dogs though. Same with pub cats.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:10 (three years ago) link
Holy shit they made it in before us and black ppl
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:12 (three years ago) link
the only british dogs i want in my pub
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6a/The_British_Bulldogs.png/220px-The_British_Bulldogs.png
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 22:13 (three years ago) link
I think schools should be way more open than they are, is that still a conservative belief?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 03:19 (three years ago) link
no I think it’s rather apolitical, just dumb
― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Thursday, 17 December 2020 03:23 (three years ago) link
i know plenty of ppl who've moved to the suburbs, but you're the only one who regularly bumps this thread to troll against 'political correctness'
― mookieproof, Thursday, 17 December 2020 03:28 (three years ago) link
suburban lawyers who used to be in a band: c/d
― mookieproof, Thursday, 17 December 2020 03:30 (three years ago) link
*with biblical names
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 05:23 (three years ago) link
I think there is some theoretically possible but realistically fantasy world where the risk calculus could favor schools mostly being open, even with things being not that great overall, unfortunately we fucked up pretty much step along the way to making that happen
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 05:33 (three years ago) link
nah, it favors them mostly being open today
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 05:46 (three years ago) link
yeah keeping schools closed has had really terrible effects on my students and i think it's had pretty bad effects on them everywhere.
i was going to put up some articles on the main covid thread - about the negative effects on students and about how the data doesn't really support it as a best practice - but decided not to
a lot of the research right now centers on "learning loss" and while the impacts are definitely real (and definitely worse for students who tend to do worse in school, i.e. poor students, students with learning differences and bipoc) i have to remind myself that i am already of the opinion that we rush kids through school much too fast and concern ourselves too much w/ narrow measures of achievement, so i was able to talk myself down from the panic and uneasiness i felt when looking at achievement data
there is less focus and less research afaict on students' social and emotional health, but the data there is pretty clear too. increased isolation, increased anxiety, increased depression, increased trauma, increased mental illness, increased abuse of all sorts etc etc etc
but hey the reality is - in california anyway - the state government can exert easy control over just a few things: public utilities, public transportation, public safety and last but not least, public education
so it's a lot easier for newsom to shut down the schools than it is to shut down the apple store, the restaurants or the strip clubs. and people are screaming "do something", so that's what he does. what he can do. and the kids pay the price. oh well!
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 05:47 (three years ago) link
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Wednesday, December 16, 2020 4:52 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
idk he just doesn't raise my hackles the same way he does everybody else's
― flopson, Thursday, 17 December 2020 08:13 (three years ago) link
if i don't share the same rage about bread prices in ontario grocery store chains in 2005, it's probably because i grew up in quebec, where bread was cheap and plentiful
― flopson, Thursday, 17 December 2020 08:14 (three years ago) link
It's vielen dankxoxo,someone who cares about language
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 17 December 2020 11:46 (three years ago) link
virtual teaching completely sucks and i saw this semester how completely it drained my colleagues as well as our students. nonetheless i am 100% thrilled that we were NOT open this semester and are NOT open next semester. the idea of being packed into sections every week with three different groups of 15 undergrads for 80 minutes each is a fucking epidemiological nightmare to me after the last nine months in NYC. i would be fucking pissed, on my behalf and theirs, if they made us come in in person. also some of the people on our teaching team are in their 70s and 80s. no fuckin way.
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:35 (three years ago) link
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:36 (three years ago) link
2xp just to pedantically backtrack for a sec:
It's akshually 'vielen Dank', unless you're Stefan George.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:39 (three years ago) link
DC has it right. It sucks but we have to seal things up and muscle through this. Knowing that vaccine help is on the way should make this a little bit easier.
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:45 (three years ago) link
I saw covid hotspot map for my county the other day and it's just a solid red blob over the university (where I work) and the student neighborhoods close to it (where I live). No way I'm getting back into a classroom until widespread vaccine distribution has happened.
― joygoat, Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:47 (three years ago) link
that's cool but FYI the impacts get significantly worse as the kids get younger
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:06 (three years ago) link
and the risk gets much lower as the kids get younger. I don't think universities need to be full in person at all fwiw, I think they can be all remote or hybrid.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:14 (three years ago) link
I think you can also make the case for high school being all remote, because high schoolers are higher risk for spread, high school involves more movement of students and teachers (different classes for different subjects) and high schoolers are more capable of remote learning. Primarily believe elementary schools should be full time in person, with a remote option for those who want it.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:15 (three years ago) link
yes, this is related to the fact that online asynchronous grad school is very common and online asynchronous preschool is not
adults (especially ones who already know a lot about what they're studying) have the executive function and intellectual skills they need to get a lot out of a loosely structured learning environment. kids, not so much
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:17 (three years ago) link
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, December 17, 2020 10:45 AM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
This is not a reasonable ask for small children. I can muscle through it, I'm 41. For a kid "muscling through" means missing kindergarten and first grade. Also, I would not get too excited about the vaccine -- it's going to take a long time for sufficient vaccination to fully reopen schools unless we rethink the standards for reopening schools.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:19 (three years ago) link
anyway my feeling is you can make whatever case you want for schools being open or not. obviously the more sectors of society we shut down the slower the pandemic spreads. whether you think it's worth saving the lives of x number of olds by endangering the welfare and stunting the social / emotional development of y number of youngs is a subjective judgment that comes down to your personal values and how much weight you put on different things. i mean i'm not thrilled about excess death, but we haven't outlawed driving on freeways, alcohol and tobacco, being obese etc etc and those are ultimately going to kill a lot more ppl than covid-19 is
i'm fine w/ teaching remotely even though it's having a terrible negative effect on my students. i work at a public charter school on a university campus that is coadministered by both the university (which also runs the largest local hospital system) and the public school district and i'm not protesting either the university or the school district's decisions to stay shut. i get it. but it doesn't make sense to me when people act like shutting schools is an easy or obvious decision to be making.
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:22 (three years ago) link
pom, all lowercase is fine for shitposting in any language. should've started with lowercase "it's" tho, my bad there.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:26 (three years ago) link
Agreed, I'm just teasing. :)
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:27 (three years ago) link
whether you think it's worth saving the lives of x number of olds by endangering the welfare and stunting the social / emotional development of y number of youngs is a subjective judgment
I wish Harold Budd were still around.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:28 (three years ago) link
personally i don't really care about harold budd because i didn't know him personally and he was 84. i definitely knew a coiple people much younger than him (one in 40s, one in 50s) that recently died of coronavirus and i wish they were around too!
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:33 (three years ago) link
"knew" = met a couple times, i was not close to these people
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:34 (three years ago) link
It is a fucking travesty that the national discourse around this is "should schools be open" as a yes or no question and not "should elementary schools be open" (although I will say that at the actual local school board and county health department decision-making level, there seems to be a lot more openness to doing this correctly, with younger kids going back to physical school first and in many places already there.)
As for college students, there is very little evidence they or their teachers are spreading COVID in class, but unfortunately a decent amount of evidence that lots of people feel "if it's safe to go to class it's safe to go to the bar" and then you get spread.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:37 (three years ago) link
otm. I read a NYT story last week showing that the problem isn't classrooms -- there's little evidence students and faculty contract it on campus. The problem is travel and bars.
― Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:39 (three years ago) link
obviously the more sectors of society we shut down the slower the pandemic spreads.
This is not necessarily true. Just for example, with schools shut down, a certain percentage of kids are going to be in daycares, at their relatives' and friends' houses, playing on the playground, etc., and even a certain percentage of teachers and staff will not be isolating themselves. So it's not certain that having schools closed even slows the spread.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:40 (three years ago) link
i get what you're saying but you could make that exact same argument about shutting down anything so i'm not sure it's that meaningful beyond "not certain that having [any isolated part of society] closed even slows the spread."
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:42 (three years ago) link
. Just for example, with [applebee's] shut down, a certain percentage of [applebee's employees] are going to be at their relatives' and friends' houses, playing on the playground, etc., and even a certain percentage of [applebee's employees] will not be isolating themselves. So it's not certain that having [applebee's] closed even slows the spread.
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:43 (three years ago) link
whether you think it's worth saving the lives of x number of olds by endangering the welfare and stunting the social / emotional development of y number of youngs is a subjective judgment that comes down to your personal values and how much weight you put on different things
it is not merely "olds" who are dying. and some people who aren't dying are being left with long term respiratory effects, and even neurological disorders....and that's just what we know so far.
i mean i'm not thrilled about excess death, but we haven't outlawed driving on freeways, alcohol and tobacco, being obese etc etc and those are ultimately going to kill a lot more ppl than covid-19 is
uhh, maybe long-term, but emerging evidence is suggesting that COVID may be the leading cause of death in the US this year. and even if it's not, it's in the top 3, so no, these things do not kill "way more people" than COVID at the moment.
If I want to avoid dying on the highway, I can avoid driving in a car. I can still leave my house and do things. If I don't want to die of alcohol related causes, I can abstain from drinking. If I don't want to die of smoking-related cancer, I can not smoke. No, we don't have absolute control over these decisions. But from a technical sense, we can avoid these things to a greater degree than we can COVID. Someone else drinking in the same room isn't directly going to give me cirrhosis of the liver, someone else smoking in the room, I can probably move away from them and I'm not going to develop lung cancer from a single contact with this person. another driver isn't likely to ram into me with their car if I'm taking a bus, subway, or walking on a sidewalk. I can manage my own risk and still go about my daily business and be around other people.
With COVID, just leaving my house is a risk. I can get severe COVID from as little as being sneezed or or having 15 minutes of contact with someone who is infected and may not know it. Literally my only way to reduce risk close to zero is to never leave my house.
in some cases, I can die even if I've had no previous health complications or how old I am. or I might survive, but now I might have trouble breathing for months. Or concentrating. and I don't know how long it will last.
https://abc11.com/covid-deaths-coronavirus-leading-cause-of-american-death-heart-disease-cancer/8845819/
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:48 (three years ago) link
the main reason 'other businesses are open, but not schools' = it's a helluva lot harder to shut businesses down without severe blowback from rich corporate monsters, and they file lawsuits against you in court to challenge your executive orders
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
I realize the decision to open schools or not isn't merely a black and white discussion, buuuuuut....I would hope the decision-making isn't based on "well we can sacrifice a few old people for this".
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
― the late great, Thursday, December 17, 2020 11:43 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
You could make that argument! And if you had evidence, I'd listen and consider whether it's worth shutting down applebee's. There does happen to be evidence that teachers and students are getting COVID at the same rate whether in school in person or remote.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:55 (three years ago) link
in one of my friends' districts where she teaches, cases are on the rise, finding new students each day reported as testing positive. yeah, their infections are probably being acquired somewhere other than teh class room, but these students have been in the classrooms with COVID. not all classrooms are ventilated well, or allow for distancing.
one of my teacher friends is asthmatic and has other health risks is a bit worried about coming into contact with one of these students. so far she's been lucky.
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:57 (three years ago) link
pro tip: don’t say these things
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
ty k3v, I was waiting for your reaction
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
Elementary & middle schools have been open here (France) since the start of September. We've made it to the end of the year break without any major breakouts from those schools. Some high schools have been on half-time (one week you go in the morning, next week in the afternoon) to ease crowding, but most have been full-time for everyone, and also, no major breakouts there. Universities went full distance after six weeks, because there was evidence of spread there.
I was skeptical that schools could stay open without problems, but I was wrong. We still have terribly many infected & I think we'll have a third wave in early January because of holiday travel & gatherings, but schools aren't the key to that here.
― All cars are bad (Euler), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:59 (three years ago) link
Applebees closing has gotta save a few lives irrespective of pandemic
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 17 December 2020 17:00 (three years ago) link
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, December 17, 2020 11:57 AM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
I know this is unlikely to be comfort to her, but asthma has been determined not to be a risk factor for severe COVID.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 17:11 (three years ago) link
my conservative belief is that boys should go to jupiter and get more stupider and girls should go to mars and become rock stars
― cosmic vision | bleak epiphany | erotic email (map), Thursday, 17 December 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link
xpost CDC (as shaky as they've been) indicates they have not ruled this out:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 17:15 (three years ago) link
fwiw published yesterday:
BY AND LARGE, coronavirus infections among children in Mississippi are not linked to schools and daycares unless the use of masks was not strictly enforced, according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention – yet another data point for school and public health officials to consider as they make complicated and often controversial decisions to reopen or close schools.
"Promoting behaviors to reduce exposures to [the coronavirus] among children and adolescents in the household and community, as well as in schools and child care programs, is needed to prevent COVID-19 outbreaks at schools and child care programs and slow the spread of COVID-19," the CDC researchers who authored the report wrote.
The investigation included 397 children during September through November at health care facilities associated with one large academic medical center in Mississippi.
The researchers found that children and adolescents 18 years old and younger who received positive test results were more likely than were similarly aged children who had negative test results to have reported close contact with a person with confirmed COVID-19, as well as less likely to have had reported consistent mask use by students and staff members inside school facilities.
Among children and adolescents who reported close contact with a person with COVID-19, those close contacts were more likely to be family members – seen at weddings, parties, play dates and funerals, for example – and less likely to be school or child care classmates.
Meanwhile, attending in-person school or child care during the two weeks before being tested for the coronavirus was not associated with increased likelihood of a positive test result. Notably, the majority of the children's and adolescents' parents reported universal mask use inside school and child care facilities.
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2020-12-16/cdc-most-coronavirus-infections-in-kids-not-linked-to-school
― Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 December 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link
― k3vin k.
lmao i say what i want
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:15 (three years ago) link
map, you are so wrong! Girls go to Mars to become movie stars!
― Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:16 (three years ago) link
School being open probably does more to increase flu deaths than it does to increase COVID deaths tbh, never stopped us in the past.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link
sounds like ... maybe you shouldn't leave the house, if you're not up for that risk?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link
or maybe you could leave the house, and everyone else in the world can stay home?
the main reason 'other businesses are open, but not schools' = it's a helluva lot harder to shut businesses down without severe blowback from rich corporate monsters
also i'll be sure to let my friend who is a black hairdresser who is deep into qanon now because he's lost 90% of his income this year that he's a rich corporate monster
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:19 (three years ago) link
With COVID, just leaving my house is a risk
also this is total nonsense! if you leave your house at 2 am and go somewhere where there's no people and come straight home, there's literally zero risk! you get it from other people, it's not radioactive fallout
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:23 (three years ago) link
Yeah I think the blowback is just as much from wage workers in industries that can't be done from home and small business owners who can't operate from home, especially people who don't have much savings or safety net. People in the US are unfortunately more dependent on their work to survive than in any other western country. I think that has a lot to do with the pushback on closures.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:25 (three years ago) link
i mean jeez i get it you guys don't like uncool conservative opinions, why are you even here?
it's not like i come onto the outbreak thread and poo poo your doomposting, recommend you save your righteous meltdown for someone on a different thread who cares
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link
I read a NYT story last week showing that the problem isn't classrooms -- there's little evidence students and faculty contract it on campus. The problem is travel and bars.
oh shit this story has a photo of benches my son and I have sat on while playing pokemon go
students DNGAF about masks or distancing but a lot of them seem to have not returned after thanksgiving so that's good at least
― joygoat, Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link
xp yes there are people who just seem to have remained stuck in March mindset, when we didn't know anywhere near as much about spread, risk, treatment, etc. Death rates are lower now, "long covid" is still a question but probably overreported (and any virus can have longer lasting effects), and if you're under 75 and healthy your risk of death even if you get it is very low, getting lower as you go down in age. Of course I still minimize my contact and take all precautions, because I can, because the cost for me is low so why not help slow the spread, because I don't want my post-cancer FIL to get it, and because who wants this thing even if it doesn't kill or debilitate you. But we are making some wrongheaded choices, and the most notable one is closing schools.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 December 2020 18:33 (three years ago) link
Death rates are lower but 3k people are dying per day. Death rate also means dick if hospitals are overcrowded (which they are) and have to ration care (some do), and if the rate of transmission and number of cases are going through the roof (which they are).
We're seeing recordsetting levels of transmission in the US. We can't act the exact same as we were in times of year when the pandemic is receding.
I am not saying nobody leave their house, and with schools, idk what the "right" answer is, but some big-assed downplaying of the pandemic itt rn
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:39 (three years ago) link
Like it's great that the mortality rate is shrinking because we've been better at treating this, but hyperfocusing on death rate is the type of thinking that got us here to begin with.
I'm glad it's lower cos I can't imagine how many would be dead otherwise
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:40 (three years ago) link
― the late great, Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:26 PM bookmarkflaglink
It's not me who is "melting down" itt rn
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:42 (three years ago) link
Hell, you sent me four replies before i came to respond to one
nobody's downplaying the pandemic, also i'm well aware of the basic facts you keep helpfully repeating
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:45 (three years ago) link
You literally dropped the "lol people die in accidents, we aren't banning cars" line
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:46 (three years ago) link
so?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:48 (three years ago) link
We should definitely ban cars btw
― is right unfortunately (silby), Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:49 (three years ago) link
maybe, or at least tax gasoline more
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:50 (three years ago) link
No we shouldn’t raise consumption taxes
― is right unfortunately (silby), Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:51 (three years ago) link
disagree, but ok
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:52 (three years ago) link
death “rates” are a nonsensical way to frame the problem. the denominator doesn’t matter when the numerator is as gruesome as this
I do agree that there have been some wrongheaded policies from people who ought to know better. elementary schools should be among the last things to close but when community transmission is as high as it is, the effect of any additional infections are amplified further. man alive, can you link to some of the research you’re citing about risk to teachers? I’d be interested to read it
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 20:59 (three years ago) link
ah the kate steinle argument
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
tlg I gave you a hard time about the car and whatever else thing because it’s a conservative talking point, your first mistake, the implication that because people die of other things we should be less concerned about this thing that a lot of people are currently dying from that no one ever died from a year ago is not terribly sound
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:03 (three years ago) link
― the late great, Thursday, December 17, 2020 4:02 PM (forty-eight seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
haven’t the slightest clue what this means tbh
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link
"who cares if the vast majority of illegal immigrants don't break the law, even one preventable murder is too many"
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:05 (three years ago) link
― is right unfortunately (silby), Thursday, December 17, 2020 3:49 PM bookmarkflaglink
tbh i agree with this
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:06 (three years ago) link
xpost uh wow is that really the analogy you wanted to make there
that's not my implication though
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link
yes that is the correct analogy, why?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link
xpost wasn't k3v's either
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link
you have this tendency when you feel strongly about something to immediately and disingenuously insinuate that your opponent is saying this thing that you know they are actually not saying or implying
has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read on ilx recently lol. take a nap or something
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link
Thread title delivers, I guess.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:10 (three years ago) link
Doesn't deliver pizza though
― Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:11 (three years ago) link
my implication is that we aacept a certain amount of risk and death in allowing ppl to do daily life activites and whether you think it's acceptable to close schools (or ban guns, or drugs, or fossil fuels) etc etc in order to reduce risk and death is not an objective question, and there's tradeoffs involved
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:11 (three years ago) link
yeah the kinetics of viral spread complicate that a bit
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
great counterarguments, guys! you really engaged with the substance of what i was saying, and i feel so ashamed to have disappointed you now
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
Some local councils in London have been trying to shut schools only to be told, "Don't you dare!" by the government.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
did i misunderstand what he meant by numerator and denominator?i figured he meant when the outcome is so gruesome?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:13 (three years ago) link
I hadn’t seen his posts when I posted mine but I was essentially stating what neanderthal was a different way. the percentage of people who die does not really matter when the absolute number is so high
― k3vin k., Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:16 (three years ago) link
oh, okay. well, i misunderstood. but that's not in the realm of what i'd call a fact, that's more like your opinion maaaaan
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
It's currently the third leading cause of death in the US, no? Right behind heart disease and cancer, neither of which is a virus iirc. And the overwhelming majority of Americans haven't had it (yet), so… things could obv. get much, much worse, and we don't really want that, do we?
What would an acceptable death toll look like iyo?
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:26 (three years ago) link
what's weird is that i actually agree w you guys. i would rather close schools than close nothing, and since the state can close schools but can't close businesses, suppose we have to close schoolswhat's extra weird to me is we can't have a rational discussion abt the pros and cons of it without you guys acting like it's some kind of obvious foregone conclusion, not to mention the yr weird horror abt ever being in agreement w someone who voted for the other guy
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:31 (three years ago) link
who cares what's acceptable to me, i'm not in a position to make decisions abt it
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:32 (three years ago) link
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:08 (twenty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
This is hardly, tbf, a novel approach around here
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:34 (three years ago) link
tlg, we can def talk about the pros and cons, I'm just trying to understand how many deaths you deem acceptable, if we're going to quantify this crisis (and we can't help but go there, whether we like it or not). 300k is a fuckton seeing as only about, what, 10% of the US population has had it so far? And this assumes partial lockdown, face masks and other preventive measures across at least some states. Fwiw here in Quebec where primary and secondary schools did stay open during the fall semester, it seems to have yielded approximately 25% of all cases since September, according to the latest data, i.e. half the amount of work-related cases and on par with the fallout of illegal house parties and the like. Maybe it was worth it, maybe it wasn't. Maybe other policies would have worked better, such as forcing everyone to WFH whenever possible instead of merely counting on the good will of our philanthropic employers. All I know is that hospitals are now edging closer and closer to being at capacity, and the post-Xmas period is going to be a nightmare despite the fact that the ban on indoor gatherings will not be lifted during the holidays.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:47 (three years ago) link
i don't bother making judgements abt how many deaths is acceptable
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:48 (three years ago) link
it's a dumb question so you can ask but you're not going to get an answer because i don't have one
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:49 (three years ago) link
it's a dumb question
lol ok, I guess that settles it then.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:50 (three years ago) link
i don't see how that settles anything but ok
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:51 (three years ago) link
i mean do YOU have a number in mind that's ok? or do only i have to answer that question?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:52 (three years ago) link
time to weigh up QALYs on both sides of this debate
― is right unfortunately (silby), Thursday, 17 December 2020 21:55 (three years ago) link
I tend to think approximately ten times the seasonal flu's average fatality rate even after the implementation of exceedingly rare preventive measures across much of the known world is kind of a big deal, certainly a bigger deal than kids not going to school for a few months (which btw would have been a blessing for me and done wonders for my mental health back when I was still in high school, if you'll allow this bit of anecdotal evidence). My hunch is that the main reason schools stayed open almost everywhere is so parents could continue working as they normally do to ensure the survival of our God-given economy. YMMV, etc.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:01 (three years ago) link
so basically what you're saying is you don't have an answer for your own rhetorical questions, let alone my serious ones, and are instead content to fall back on sarcastically attempting to shame me. ok!
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:06 (three years ago) link
How is that not an answer to my own rhetorical question? I'm basically stating that 300k *is* too much imo. And I did engage with your arguments beyond the surface snark, even though you deem my responses unsatisfactory. Are you ok? Because this is such a bizarre hill to die on, and in *this* manner.
― pomenitul, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:10 (three years ago) link
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Thursday, December 17, 2020 4:34 PM bookmarkflaglink
Lol well yes, yr right there
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:23 (three years ago) link
Im all for tlg going in on this thread tbf pom, seems the place for it like
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:24 (three years ago) link
lmao who's dying?
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:25 (three years ago) link
oh no a bunch of internet strangers with bad opinions might in turn think my opinions are bad, the horror, how will i ever be able to rely on the msg board strangers for emotional support / ego stroking ever again (oh wait i don't)
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:27 (three years ago) link
anyway, it's not a bizarre hill for me at all, because i'm a high school teacher, and my students are suffering because of school closures, and that's not ok with me. believe me, i'm fine
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:30 (three years ago) link
anyway your question was not "how much is too much" your question was literally "how much you deem acceptable" and you didn't answer that question, so that is why your response is not an answer to your rhetorical question
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:31 (three years ago) link
I tend to think approximately ten times the seasonal flu's average fatality rate even after the implementation of exceedingly rare preventive measures across much of the known world is kind of a big deal
i never said it wasn't a big deal. school closures and business closures are a big deal too.
certainly a bigger deal than kids not going to school for a few months (which btw would have been a blessing for me and done wonders for my mental health back when I was still in high school, if you'll allow this bit of anecdotal evidence)
great argument! seem to recall someone getting accused of "downplaying" somewhere on this thread ...
honestly though, you might be able to convince yourself i'm some kind of cryptofascist but do you think the good ppl at unicef are right-wingers?
https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/covid-19-unicef-warns-continued-damage-learning-and-well-being-number-children
― the late great, Thursday, 17 December 2020 22:39 (three years ago) link
shit sucks
― brimstead, Thursday, 17 December 2020 23:25 (three years ago) link
I just mean everything, all around.
brimstone otm
― mother should I build the walmart (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 17 December 2020 23:28 (three years ago) link
sulfur to say, yes otm
― Evan, Thursday, 17 December 2020 23:35 (three years ago) link
:(
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 18 December 2020 00:00 (three years ago) link
The covidiots on this thread can go fuck themselves. Maybe someone close to you can die and then you can get some fucking perspective.
― The Battle of Taylor Swift's "Evermore" (PBKR), Friday, 18 December 2020 02:15 (three years ago) link
Sorry, sorry, I'm going to go analyze all the data to decide how much risk is acceptable.
― The Battle of Taylor Swift's "Evermore" (PBKR), Friday, 18 December 2020 02:20 (three years ago) link
yes perhaps if someone close to me died of COVID I'd want to harm children in order not to help stop the spread of COVID
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 18 December 2020 02:43 (three years ago) link
look, yo, I don't think it's gonna help anything if we all just keep talkin' past each other in this thread. I wasn't posting specifically in service of demanding kids not be allowed to go to school, just taking severe umbrage at some of the dismissiveness in tlg's post (and the death rate focus of your posts, though less so your posts than tlg's).
the data doesn't say spread doesn't happen in schools - it says schools aren't superspreaders. that's great, and during calmer times of year, a good time of year for keeping schools open. but right now, pretty much the entire USA is a COVID hotspot, with record-breaking numbers. most of our data regarding school transmission came during times of year with much lower transmission/active cases - prior to November, we had just cracked 80,000 cases a day, which at the time, was our peak. we're at three times that right now. even if schools aren't superspreaders, they still pose a risk, so I don't believe in pooh-poohing the concerns of educators who are afraid to go to school right now.
that doesn't mean I think all schools should be closed, necessarily as forcing parents to find alternate arrangements for their kids for 7+ months is non-realistic, not to mention they're not going to be invested in their education. i don't know what the right answer is. seems more like two poison pills.
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Friday, 18 December 2020 03:06 (three years ago) link
In the most recent NY contact-tracing data, 74% of spread resulted from household and social gatherings. About 1.5% originated with school employees and about 1% with k-12 students. It's certainly true that some spread happens in schools, it's just not a major driver. Plus there's evidence that students and teachers in remote learning get COVID around the same rate as students and teachers in person.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 18 December 2020 03:38 (three years ago) link
I have seen smart people mention that young children are systematically undertested and therefore underrepresented in contact tracing data. since they're already closed the question of opening schools is not something that really has a huge impact on my day to day so I haven't gotten too deep into the evidence myself, but like I said if you post the sources I will give them a look
― k3vin k., Friday, 18 December 2020 04:22 (three years ago) link
Def not undertested in NYC, schools are a big source of testing.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 18 December 2020 04:45 (three years ago) link
We probably should just start a new thread for the original thread topic
― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Friday, 18 December 2020 06:29 (three years ago) link
That is certainly an uncool conservative belief.
― You will notice a small sink where your sofa once was. (Old Lunch), Friday, 18 December 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link
can people please try to see their interlocutors' POV on the question of schools? it is a very hard question. we have two children. my youngest has now had his entire first semester of kindergarten on Zoom. he is a social child who thrives in classrooms, a leader among his peers and a good friend. the loss he is experiencing is heartbreaking. do I favor opening his school? no, I don't. I worked in health care for years, I believe in the most austere measures to contain the spread of infection. but I also have a job that allows me to give of my time to my kids, if I can manage to stay sane basically be "on" from 4 a.m. until I collapse at around 10. Most people don't have my job and they're suffering. Teachers who worked their whole lives to take an underpaid job shaping the future by teaching our kids are talking into a screen all day and wishing they could actually teach, wishing they could do what they take shitty pay for year-round. It's hard. When people hold opinions that are informed by their suffering, it would be nice if we could at least meet those people in a mood of compassion and understanding.
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Friday, 18 December 2020 17:28 (three years ago) link
My hunch is that the main reason schools stayed open almost everywhere
One of the big ways that people are talking past each other on this is that advocates of open schools think schools are closed almost everywhere and advocates of keeping schools closed think they're open almost everywhere! And in fact it's bizarrely hard to get clean data about this -- I know what the story is for my kids' school district but I don't even know how to figure out what's happening elsewhere in the state except by going to individual county school board websites. Do YOU feel like you know what proportion of US K-12 schoolkids are attending class in person this week? I sure don't and I don't know how to find out. (Now somebody will show me up by Googling a reliable number but I promise, I have tried and failed.)
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 18 December 2020 17:49 (three years ago) link
JCLC otm.I've got a kid at school who also experienced the school closing before the summer and I was so anxious about just that relatively short break.I've also had a friend die of Covid and really don't want to risk catching it as much as I can. Kid at school is my main risk and tbh I'm quite worried about January after the holiday free-for-all that we're not even participating in.Schools in our area have generally had a few cases, but not ours. Yet. Other areas have had loads.
― kinder, Friday, 18 December 2020 19:43 (three years ago) link
I'm sorry for your loss kinder
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 18 December 2020 19:45 (three years ago) link
Thanks. I'm still shocked when I remember.
― kinder, Friday, 18 December 2020 19:54 (three years ago) link
I MAY have mentioned a few times that I have a high special-needs kid who needs almost constant supervision. Two adults with full-time day jobs could not shepherd him through virtual school without something breaking, and breaking badly. Not just because of those day jobs, but because we have a whole other kid, a household, our own self-care needs, and, um, (gestures vaguely at the state of the universe).
My son being in some physical school (on an extremely limited and precaution-rich basis) has saved us from ruin.
At the same time, my teenage daughter is thriving in virtual 8th grade, with straight A's and decent coping skills. She just got into the school (likely virtual) play, while singing in chorus and doing online dance for musical theater.
Further, I am the grandson, son, and brother of many kick-ass educators, about whom I care a lot as well. So I *think* I am seeing multiple POVs.
My own personal POV is that this shit is a colossal mess that is hitting a lot of people very hard, and I empathize with pretty much all of them. Most of us are coping (albeit barely). Of course I reserve a special flavor of empathy for those whose losses are catastrophic and irreplaceable.
― mother should I build the walmart (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 18 December 2020 20:08 (three years ago) link
Pretty much every full remote day for my k and 3 kids ends in some kind of meltdown, and also leads to lots of work interruptions even with a babysitter there (and that help is expensive even though we are managing). The difference in the kids' mental and emotional well being between in person days and remote days is massive and persistent.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 18 December 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
sorry for your inconvenience
― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Friday, 18 December 2020 23:46 (three years ago) link
Ye Mad Puffin do we know each other offline at all, are you FB mutuals w/Ned R or something? would love to talk.
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Saturday, 19 December 2020 00:22 (three years ago) link
Jclc, I don't think so, but my profile email is good
― mother should I build the walmart (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 19 December 2020 00:41 (three years ago) link
JCLC said it very well. I'm trying to find a solution to this that isn't painful for someone. Idk what it is
― Lover of Nixon (or LON for short) (Neanderthal), Saturday, 19 December 2020 02:44 (three years ago) link
roger waters rules
― Karl Malone, Saturday, 19 December 2020 06:52 (three years ago) link
i'm surprised being opposed to closing schools is a conservative opinion
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30084-0/fulltext
First, school closures will exacerbate food insecurity. For many students living in poverty, schools are not only a place for learning but also for eating healthily. Research shows that school lunch is associated with improvements in academic performance, whereas food insecurity (including irregular or unhealthy diets) is associated with low educational attainment and substantial risks to the physical health and mental wellbeing of children. The number of children facing food insecurity is substantial. According to Eurostat, 6.6% of households with children in the European Union—5.5% in the UK—cannot afford a meal with meat, fish, or a vegetarian equivalent every second day. Comparable estimates in the USA suggest that 14% of households with children had food insecurity in 2018.Second, research suggests that non-school factors are a primary source of inequalities in educational outcomes. The gap in mathematical and literacy skills between children from lower and higher socioeconomic backgrounds often widens during school holiday periods. The summer holiday in most American schools is estimated to contribute to a loss in academic achievement equivalent to one month of education for children with low socioeconomic status; however, this effect is not observed for children with higher socioeconomic status.Summer holidays are also associated with a setback in mental health and wellbeing for children and adolescents. Although the current school closures differ from summer holidays in that learning is expected to continue digitally, the closures are likely to widen the learning gap between children from lower-income and higher-income families. Children from low-income households live in conditions that make home schooling difficult. Online learning environments usually require computers and a reliable internet connection. In Europe, a substantial number of children live in homes in which they have no suitable place to do homework (5%) or have no access to the internet (6.9%). Furthermore, 10.2% of children live in homes that cannot be heated adequately, 7.2% have no access to outdoor leisure facilities, and 5% do not have access to books at the appropriate reading level. In the USA, an estimated 2.5% of students in public schools do not live in a stable residence. In New York city, where a large proportion of COVID-19 cases in the USA have been observed, one in ten students were homeless or experienced severe housing instability during the previous school year. While learning might continue unimpeded for children from higher income households, children from lower income households are likely to struggle to complete homework and online courses because of their precarious housing situations. Beyond the educational challenges, however, low-income families face an additional threat: the ongoing pandemic is expected to lead to a severe economic recession. Previous recessions have exacerbated levels of child poverty with long-lasting consequences for children's health, wellbeing, and learning outcomes.
Second, research suggests that non-school factors are a primary source of inequalities in educational outcomes. The gap in mathematical and literacy skills between children from lower and higher socioeconomic backgrounds often widens during school holiday periods. The summer holiday in most American schools is estimated to contribute to a loss in academic achievement equivalent to one month of education for children with low socioeconomic status; however, this effect is not observed for children with higher socioeconomic status.
Summer holidays are also associated with a setback in mental health and wellbeing for children and adolescents. Although the current school closures differ from summer holidays in that learning is expected to continue digitally, the closures are likely to widen the learning gap between children from lower-income and higher-income families. Children from low-income households live in conditions that make home schooling difficult. Online learning environments usually require computers and a reliable internet connection. In Europe, a substantial number of children live in homes in which they have no suitable place to do homework (5%) or have no access to the internet (6.9%). Furthermore, 10.2% of children live in homes that cannot be heated adequately, 7.2% have no access to outdoor leisure facilities, and 5% do not have access to books at the appropriate reading level. In the USA, an estimated 2.5% of students in public schools do not live in a stable residence. In New York city, where a large proportion of COVID-19 cases in the USA have been observed, one in ten students were homeless or experienced severe housing instability during the previous school year. While learning might continue unimpeded for children from higher income households, children from lower income households are likely to struggle to complete homework and online courses because of their precarious housing situations. Beyond the educational challenges, however, low-income families face an additional threat: the ongoing pandemic is expected to lead to a severe economic recession. Previous recessions have exacerbated levels of child poverty with long-lasting consequences for children's health, wellbeing, and learning outcomes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/coronavirus-education-lost-learning.html
The average student could begin the next school year having lost as much as a third of the expected progress from the previous year in reading and half of the expected progress in math, according to a working paper from NWEA, a nonprofit organization, and scholars at Brown University and the University of Virginia.A separate analysis of 800,000 students from researchers at Brown and Harvard looked at how Zearn, an online math program, was used both before and after schools closed in March. It found that through late April, student progress in math decreased by about half in classrooms located in low-income ZIP codes, by a third in classrooms in middle-income ZIP codes and not at all in classrooms in high-income ZIP codes.When all of the impacts are taken into account, the average student could fall seven months behind academically, while black and Hispanic students could experience even greater learning losses, equivalent to 10 months for black children and nine months for Latinos, according to an analysis from McKinsey & Company, the consulting group.There are several reasons low-income, black and Hispanic students appear to be suffering the most through the crisis. The Center on Reinventing Public Education, a think tank, will release an analysis next week of the pandemic learning policies of 477 school districts. It found that only a fifth have required live teaching over video, and that wealthy school districts were twice as likely to provide such teaching as low-income districts.
A separate analysis of 800,000 students from researchers at Brown and Harvard looked at how Zearn, an online math program, was used both before and after schools closed in March. It found that through late April, student progress in math decreased by about half in classrooms located in low-income ZIP codes, by a third in classrooms in middle-income ZIP codes and not at all in classrooms in high-income ZIP codes.
When all of the impacts are taken into account, the average student could fall seven months behind academically, while black and Hispanic students could experience even greater learning losses, equivalent to 10 months for black children and nine months for Latinos, according to an analysis from McKinsey & Company, the consulting group.
There are several reasons low-income, black and Hispanic students appear to be suffering the most through the crisis. The Center on Reinventing Public Education, a think tank, will release an analysis next week of the pandemic learning policies of 477 school districts. It found that only a fifth have required live teaching over video, and that wealthy school districts were twice as likely to provide such teaching as low-income districts.
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 07:18 (three years ago) link
that lancet article is from may, and I noticed you left out the first paragraph that said that the scientific merits of school closures are being debated. there’s no question closing schools can hurt kids. it’s a harrowing choice and I don’t think there’s a good answer, but from what I have seen it is simply not true that we know children do not spread the virus significantly. they are more likely to have mild and asymptomatic illness and are systematically under-tested. the data are incomplete. I think it’s reasonable to conclude that despite what we don’t know, kids (particularly elementary school kids) should still be in school. just isn’t where I fallschool provides essential non-educational services for kids, which they obviously can’t get if they’re closed, but children suffer when family members die too. if our government would pay working class people to stay home, to ensure they can buy food, pay rent, etc, that would also be a nice step
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 07:37 (three years ago) link
that lancet article is from may, and I noticed you left out the first paragraph that said that the scientific merits of school closures are being debated.
it was just the first google result; there's a million things written about this since may, and there will be for years.
i was highlighting the stuff about unequal impact of closure on children from low-income families, not taking a stand on covid spreading. although the numbers hurting quoted above from nyc are very similar to those where i live, where schools have been open since september (with some short-term targeted closures) with no major spread
it's interesting to me (strokes chin) that nothing in your post acknowledges the unequal impact... ilxors are typically obsessed with socio-economic inequality, and yet on this topic it's like "children suffer when family members die too". but the marginal risk from opening schools is equally distributed among all families, whereas the costs of keeping them closed fall disproportionately on poor families. actually if anything, opening schools exposes higher-income families more, since they're the ones wfh
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 07:55 (three years ago) link
the impact of the virus itself is inequitable. like I said there unfortunately is not the easy answer we want, even before we bring things like teachers unions into the equation
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:01 (three years ago) link
the impact of the virus itself is inequitable.
the total impact of the virus is inequitable; i'm arguing that the marginal impact from closing schools is inequitable
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:05 (three years ago) link
huh? I understand that. I’m saying that if one accepts that schools can be a source of spread, which I do for now until I am convinced otherwise, then opening schools risks increased spread and further death, which happens to be inequitable
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:09 (three years ago) link
like I said there unfortunately is not the easy answer we want
i realize you don't personally want to take a position on it, which is fine i guess. but it's not twitter literally no one is reading this u don't have to be afraid
there is no reason to privilege the position "we just don't have enough information, therefore we should keep schools closed" over "we just don't have enough information, therefore we should keep schools open"
it's not a matter of "wanting" an easy answer, it's making a decision under uncertainty
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:13 (three years ago) link
― k3vin k., Saturday, December 19, 2020 3:09 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
you think the marginal spread that will come from opening schools (people who will be infected if schools opened but otherwise would not) will be the same people who suffer the worst from schools being closed? why?
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:15 (three years ago) link
also, having the bar be "schools can be a source of spread" means that any positive amount of spread caused by schools is worth the unequal costs borne by students
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:17 (three years ago) link
should be "...will be disproportionately among those who suffer the worst from schools being closed?"
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:24 (three years ago) link
I’ve basically been clear I think — we don’t know the extent to which young children contribute to spread, but it is not negligible, and how that factors into one’s calculus is ultimately a personal judgement call. (I was being a bit coy earlier, man alive is wrong btw about our certainty regarding extent of spread, but he wouldn’t bite when I asked for data.) my bias is that while closing schools clearly has the potential to be catastrophic, so does the alternative, and it won’t be forever. and in my (in this instance very amateur) opinion most of those harms are probably socioeconomic rather than strictly achievement-based, something that government can at least attempt to mitigate, which it has largely not. also I am in and out of ICUs for work so I am biased in this sense toward fewer people dead tomorrow
anyway this is a good editorial that reflects my feelings pretty well: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30927-0/fulltext
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:24 (three years ago) link
― flopson, Saturday, December 19, 2020 3:15 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
maybe I am just not being clear. the same demographics I agree suffer disproportionately from closing schools also suffer disproportionately from more spread. I don’t know how to put it simpler than that
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:28 (three years ago) link
while closing schools clearly has the potential to be catastrophic, so does the alternative, and it won’t be forever. and in my (in this instance very amateur) opinion most of those harms are probably socioeconomic rather than strictly achievement-based, something that government can at least attempt to mitigate, which it has largely not.
imo this is a massive dodge but ok
also thank u for ur service <3
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:31 (three years ago) link
:)
getting my shot tomorrow
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 08:46 (three years ago) link
― k3vin k., Saturday, December 19, 2020 3:28 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
so that's the thing about the marginal vs average risk. increasing unconditional average risk disproportionately affects low-income workers, but the marginal risk from opening schools does not disproportionately affect low-income parents
low-income children who suffer a lot from missing school have parents who work in e.g. retail/services and who have a relatively high exposure risk compared to parents who can wfh and are also on average higher-income and have a lower cost of their kids foregoing school
opening schools will increase spread through schools as a first-order effect
given the pre-existing unequal distribution of risk, this will on average mean those with higher risk spreading to those with lower risk. in other words, the parents of low-income children get covid from work and their kids spread it to other kids at the school and their families
as a second-order effect, that spread will work its way through the population via chains of transmission
opening schools disproportionately increases risk for low-income families if the second-order effect dominates the first-order effect. so chains like: parent gets covid, their kid transmits it to other kid, their parents get it, then they give it to someone who gives it to someone who gives to a low-income parent. about 10% of the population are parents of school-age children, so about every chain of transmission of length 10 includes 1 school-age parent, on average
in a full, raging pandemic (north dakota in september) where R is wayyy above 1 maybe you could get the numbers to work, but i don't think any other scenario will deliver that
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 09:02 (three years ago) link
:)getting my shot tomorrow― k3vin k., Saturday, December 19, 2020 3:46 AM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
― k3vin k., Saturday, December 19, 2020 3:46 AM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
ayyyyy :^)
We do have pretty good data from all around the world that children in school contribute less to the spread. The only study I have seen to the contrary was done in south India in areas where schools are extremely poor and overcrowded and multigenerational families live in tight spaces. It’s pretty clear at this point that in a 25-30 kid class with masking and even a few feet of space and a moderate amount of ventilation the spread is low among kids at school. Staff getting it from each other is more common than getting it from students.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 19 December 2020 17:13 (three years ago) link
you should at least read the editorial I posted that discusses the data we have, their limitations, and conclusions that can be drawn from them
― k3vin k., Saturday, 19 December 2020 19:58 (three years ago) link
The reason not to be surprised by this is that teachers' unions generally support closing physical schools, and diminishing the already much-attenuated power of teachers' unions is a first-order goal for movement conservatives that supersedes anything having to do with public health. They do not so much want public schools to be open as they want public schools to be closed and for the resulting costs to be blamed on the unions.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 19 December 2020 20:57 (three years ago) link
― k3vin k., Saturday, December 19, 2020 2:58 PM (one hour ago) bookmark flag link
i read it. it didn't say anything about the marginal spread from opening schools or its socioeconomic impact. it argued was that secondary schools might be sources of spreading despite there being only 55 cases of within-school transmission of 928000 kids are under-tested, because kids are under-tested
one cost (effect on kids of not attending school) is known. the cost on the other side, increased spread, is unknown. if 55/928000 is really the number, i think most people would agree the latter cost outweighs the former. however, if the authors are right and it's actually (55+x)/928000, how large does x have to be to reverse the calculus?
― flopson, Saturday, 19 December 2020 21:39 (three years ago) link
Climate is also a factor due to the importance of proper ventilation, so ideally we should specify which region(s) we're talking about. Anyway, here's some recent data from Quebec:
https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/2019-coronavirus/situation-coronavirus-in-quebec/#c75434
As you can see, educational environments account for a non negligible percentage of active outbreaks.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 19 December 2020 21:51 (three years ago) link
gonna have some good data on this soon. the week of jan 11th everybody in my son’s 1500-student secondary school is getting tested! they’ve already had about 10 cases this term (that showed symptoms).
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 19 December 2020 22:01 (three years ago) link
It's plausible that we'd see more spread if more schools were operating at full capacity, but masks, even minimal ventilation improvements, and measures such as avoiding eating close to one another seem to go a long way. In the US, schools that have seen outbreaks tend most often to be the ones taking no precautions whatsoever, e.g. not enforcing masks. But it's hard to find examples of school districts operating at full capacity but with masks and ventilation and other precautions, because there seems to be a polarization between areas where people have an abundance and possibly even excess of caution and places where they just think the whole thing is dumb.
In my county there are I think four school districts doing exactly what I said -- operating at full capacity but taking other precautions, but three of the four are wealthy districts that have a lot of extra space in their schools and the other one is moderately affluent and I don't know as much about it. So, again, trying to be as fair-minded as possible, it's harder to find examples of schools doing exactly what I advocate (at least at the elementary school level), which is masking and other precautions but full time in person for all who want it.
My district has kindergarten in full time and is planning to phase in first grade, fwiw. So far no outbreaks in kindergarten. Around 15-20 cases (more staff than students) in the district so far but none of them have been contracted within a school.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 19 December 2020 22:47 (three years ago) link
Also, perhaps ironically, the school district's attitude tends to mirror the region's attitude. So the places where they take no precaution at school also tend to have unchecked community spread, and the places where they take (I think) excessive precautions in the schools tend to be the places where they also have low community spread, which would actually make it easier to open safely.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 19 December 2020 22:49 (three years ago) link
do you think there might be a correlation between precautions taken and the level of community spread?
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 19 December 2020 22:50 (three years ago) link
Of course there is, that's exactly my point. But what I'm saying is that there's a polarization where you either have places where both the school and the community are taking no precautions, or places where the community is taking precautions but also the school is not as open as it could be (in part because community spread is lower).
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 19 December 2020 22:53 (three years ago) link
But I don't believe there's a causative link between *having school closed or partially closed* and lower community spread. That's the point.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 19 December 2020 22:54 (three years ago) link
surely if community spread was lower then the school would be more open
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Saturday, 19 December 2020 23:06 (three years ago) link
You would think so but no!
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 19 December 2020 23:14 (three years ago) link
people who claim to observe / celebrate "solstice" or archaic winter solstice holidays like Saturnalia or Yule are 100% fronting
― real muthaphuckkin jeez (crüt), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:07 (three years ago) link
I get more aggravated when people get the basic facts wrong about "lol ur Christian holiday = really a pagan one." because they read a meme and now they want to impress people with obscure knowledge.
like the people every year who smugly ask "did u know Easter comes from Ishtar", which is completely wrong
― Looking for Cape Penis house (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:13 (three years ago) link
xp sorry you don’t have an indigenous culture anymore i guess
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:17 (three years ago) link
I celebrate it because I'm sick of it being dark and am happy that we made it around the sun again
also, astronomy is cool
I appreciate crut's salty take here, though
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:18 (three years ago) link
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:21 (three years ago) link
Right. Paganism was completely gone from Europe everywhere but St. Kilda and parts of the Baltics by 1000CE. Also, "Pagan," in anything written by Protestants before the 20th Century, is an euphemism for "Catholic."
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:23 (three years ago) link
In Ireland we at least acknowledge the winter solstice every year, purely because the Neolithic passage tomb at Newgrange is designed specifically to allow the sun to enter the inner chamber on the solstice days. It’s nice to watch and feel that connection with the ancestors. They televise it and it’s wonderful to watch.
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:42 (three years ago) link
related: i never get how the white ppl i know who have the most ultra sensitive antennae for calling out cultural appropriation are the same ones who are always into doing solemn sage burning smudge rituals when they move into a new apt
― nobody like my rap (One Eye Open), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:43 (three years ago) link
interest in paganism is cool, as is the recognition that vestiges of that culture persisted through the pagan centuries.
― treeship., Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:49 (three years ago) link
I associate a strong interest in paganism as a red flag for fascist/racist/alt right shit, probably unfair but still
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:52 (three years ago) link
there is that but then there are all also lots of "witchy" people in major cities -- mostly women -- who are definitely on the left if anything
― treeship., Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:56 (three years ago) link
now that you mention it i went to a viking wedding once. didn't know the couple very much or why they identified with the norse gods. didn't ask but maybe i should have.
― treeship., Wednesday, 23 December 2020 15:59 (three years ago) link
Anything to do with Odin and Nordic/Germanic gods seems well dodgy to me.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:04 (three years ago) link
For sure. To my knowledge, the Witches vs. the Patriarchy crowd treesh is referring to doesn't dabble in that stuff much.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:07 (three years ago) link
no, they don't. i'll bet they like freya though.
― treeship., Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:08 (three years ago) link
Tbf, Freyja's pretty awesome.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:09 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBZNK_CEVZw
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:13 (three years ago) link
I wonder how Varg reacted to this bit of news:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dna-analysis-reveals-vikings-surprising-genetic-diversity-180975865/
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:16 (three years ago) link
gyac that tomb looks amazing
― kinder, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:19 (three years ago) link
to me it's like, some people do feel a strong need for ritual as part of the rhythms of life - i certainly recognize it myself for things like funerals and birthday parties, we must mark the important things in recurring ways or else we fail to mark them (or feel stressed trying to come up with unsatisfying substitutes). and if the traditions you were raised in now ring hollow --- let's say a version of christianity that just doesn't work for your present values and beliefs --- then a lot of the practices that have cultural legitimacy around you just aren't going to feel right. so you find something else, even if it risks being mocked for lacking that perceived legitimacy. and maybe bits and pieces of paganism, witchcraft, astrological tradition fill that void and in particular help overcome other modern anxieties by being rooted in observable natural phenomena like the changing of the seasons and the positions of the stars. for the overwhelming majority of human history these were some of the fundamental things we could see, and by seeing them, begin to mark the passage of time and the meaning of a life. idk it doesn't seem too crazy to me that people would adopt that stuff, there were waves of renewed interest in pagan practices and "mysticism" at least as early as Victorian times (see T.J. Jackson Lears in /No Place of Grace/). maybe it looks silly or mishmashy from the outside, esp if someone has newly gotten into it and all the stuff they're saying doesn't seem to quite add up --- doesn't mean they're insincere!anyway *all* ritual practices are sort of arbitrary and silly really, at the same time as they're deeply meaningful. imagine trying to explain to Martians why it's really important that on the anniversary of your birth, a sweet pastry must be topped with candles that you blow out while silently making a wish, surrounded by singing friends, and how it just doesn't feel like a birthday otherwise. or why even lapsed christians really want a christmas tree in the home during december, and to have some days out of the 365 in the calendar that are special, which separate out the endless stream of days into meaningful units and journeys through life. the winter solstice doesn't do that for me, but if it does for someone else, they've arguably got a more rational basis for where they've put their seasonal rituals - it's undeniably true that the days start getting longer again at that point!
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:22 (three years ago) link
I used to walk past three megalithic sites, signposted in a language a couple thousand odd years old, to check on the cows every day, in a landscape that would knock you flat with awe every time you looked up at it with the power and majesty of nature.
As always, youve to mentally insert "in america/american" for context when and where p much anything comes up about culture or we're all just talking past each other sher
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:26 (three years ago) link
Not that we dont have a load of artists/nutters down around bathing in ley line energy poking at farmers for their ancient celtic wisdom, crut otm about most of these types but they keep the local fences mended and the few euro coming in so yknow
― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:30 (three years ago) link
ogham the money
― scampish inquisition (gyac), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:30 (three years ago) link
Hah
I’ve definitely seen pushback against smudging/using white sage or palo santo in more uh witchy circles. Around here, it’s the live laugh love type of stores that are all over it.
― Notes on Scampo (tokyo rosemary), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 16:37 (three years ago) link
speaking as someone living in witchy hippie land USA, it's also important to remember that there's a lot of overlap with anti-vax and #S@ve0urCH1ld3n types
― howls of non-specificity (sleeve), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 17:22 (three years ago) link
> Anything to do with Odin and Nordic/Germanic gods seems well dodgy to me.
tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday...
― koogs, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
(always boggles my mind that most of our days of the week are named after norse gods)
― koogs, Wednesday, 23 December 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
... see the video above.
― Eggbreak Hotel (Tom D.), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 20:36 (three years ago) link
the Portuguese have it right. none of that pagan nonsense. the lord's day, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, sixth day, sabbath
― Babby's Yed Revisited (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 23 December 2020 20:40 (three years ago) link
Just because someone’s a woman means they’re ’nurturing’?! Come on! We’re reducing women to their biological functions when we do that! Those functions have of course molded social attitudes and even constructed, through a legacy of generations, women’s own ideas of themselves, sure, and in many ways those ideas are beautiful, but there’s a flip side to them, which is a limiting one - that women’s place is as a caregiver, etc. So to the bedevilment: is there ANY value in ascribing particular characteristics as ‘feminine’ or ‘masculine’? Isn’t that incredibly limiting? Yet yet yet - there is such fun to be had with masculinity and femininity. Dressing up. Swapping around. Exaggerating. What about trans people? Someone born biologically male but who ‘feels’ like a woman. Well, what does that feel like? Doesn’t that suggest there IS some essential quality of womanhood and femininity that goes beyond biology? Isn't that....... wildly uncool????!?
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 16 March 2021 23:31 (three years ago) link
(and 'limiting' cf above??) I twist myself into knots sometimes thinking about this which makes me feel extremely like Mark on Peep Show
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 16 March 2021 23:35 (three years ago) link
a lot of things but biology is part of the reduction / limiting not prior to itthe nurturing thing is just a way to naturalise / biologise divisions of (esp reproductive) labour & obscure the violence of the process by framing it in terms of love & self sacrificeplaying with signifiers of masculinity/femininity doesn't require any kind of approval of gender as a regime, I want to think it can undermine it to some degreetransness isn't about being one thing & feeling another in any necessary sensethere is of course a tension between identity & opposition to regimes that produce it or make it possible or necessary but that's not something that any one person should or can resolve
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:03 (three years ago) link
i guess my big conservative views are that progress & modernity are horrific & the luddites had a point
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:04 (three years ago) link
Luddites were fighting capitalism not technology though
― rob, Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:07 (three years ago) link
i already said progress & modernity
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:13 (three years ago) link
Sorry, the thread context may have misled me? I get annoyed by the popular misunderstanding of Luddites as being against technological change per se (like they'd be smashing Playstations today or something), rather than against deskilling of their labor and subsequent wage slashing. I mean they're not politically conservative in any way.
Anyway, I am sympathetic to an abstract, idealized version of small-c conservatism that is motivated by a desire to understand and preserve the past.
― rob, Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:19 (three years ago) link
I am sympathetic to an abstract, idealized version of small-c conservatism that is motivated by a desire to understand and preserve the past.
This is indeed preferable to, say, Marinetti-style Futurism.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:26 (three years ago) link
I was exploiting a possibly overliteral definition of conservatism to complain about the basically uncritical glorification of industrialism found across the political spectrum today- because some leftists will call you a fascist if you take issue with this (fascism being famously anti-industrial apparently)
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 19:49 (three years ago) link
to me anti-industrialism is what sets hippies aside from leftists, at least since marx there has been a ‘game recognize game’ dynamic.
i don’t agree that people are too uncritical of industrialism and progress today, but to the extent they are it’s probably a reflection of the strong nostalgic strain on the left. leftists are wistful for industrialism as we enter a post-industrial age
― flopson, Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:19 (three years ago) link
if the whole "capitalism is an improvement" thing is a necessary part of being a leftist then i'm much more of a hippie
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:22 (three years ago) link
i've been thinking about limnits, i guess, and grey areas. also violence. here's an uncool conservative belief: violence is unavoidable.
― John Cooper of Christian rock band Skillet (map), Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:27 (three years ago) link
https://streamable.com/t1pzpx
― exist in theory (esby), Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:28 (three years ago) link
― imago, Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:35 (three years ago) link
lol x2
Another one: utopia is unachievable for the foreseeable future because biological existence is itself broken rather than just us anthropocentric apes and the sociopolitical systems we have set up to bear the unbearable. I draw no quietist conclusions from this, however. Something must be done to improve our lot, be it almost nothing. So not quite a conservative belief per se, but definitely an uncool one ca. 2021.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:40 (three years ago) link
i thought u were talking about industrialism and technological progress. anyways, recognizing emancipatory potential of industry’s productive forces is pretty old school
The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground — what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?
The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property; on the contrary, they have become too powerful for these conditions, by which they are fettered, and so soon as they overcome these fetters, they bring disorder into the whole of bourgeois society, endanger the existence of bourgeois property. The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented.The weapons with which the bourgeoisie felled feudalism to the ground are now turned against the bourgeoisie itself.
The weapons with which the bourgeoisie felled feudalism to the ground are now turned against the bourgeoisie itself.
but even marx and engels couldn’t help wax nostalgic about the cottage-core small scale skilled craftsmen mode of production that predates industrial production and division of labour. it’s something that’s always been confusing to me in marxism. if workers are going to exploit this industrial technology to form a revolutionary class, and then overthrow it and return to an idyllic pre-industrial form of production where labor is not alienated (the quote about being a “fisherman in the afternoon”) presumably they would also lose the corresponding increase in standard of living that came from industrial production?
― flopson, Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:47 (three years ago) link
xps to Left
― flopson, Saturday, 20 March 2021 20:48 (three years ago) link
marx is confusing on this as on many other issues (imperialism, primitive accumulation, the state, the bourgeoisie) where he clearly has qualms with something he needs (in this case a whiggish notion of progress applied to modes of production) to make part of the theory work and/or win an argument with a rival. his worst followers removed all ambivalence or ambiguity
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:11 (three years ago) link
Marijuana should be 100% legal but public smoking of it--and public smoking of anything (tobacco, vape smoke, banana peels)-- should be shunned by all right thinking people. I don't want your second hand smoke.
― Bruno Ganz and Babaloo Mandel (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:18 (three years ago) link
That's not a conservative view, it's nanny state liberalism
― himpathy with the devil (jim in vancouver), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:25 (three years ago) link
does 2nd hand vapour bother people (besides the smell)? serious q
can we still smoke in the park if we're like 50 yards away?
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:26 (three years ago) link
liberalism
words with contradictory meanings
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:29 (three years ago) link
I assumed the smell was what was being objected to. Of vaping that is, not liberalism.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:30 (three years ago) link
i was wondering if it caused respiratory issues for some ppl in which case fair enough. if it's jsut the smell then get rid of cars first and then we'll talk
― nothing (Left), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:33 (three years ago) link
liberalism doesn't smell that great either these days
weed smells good
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:41 (three years ago) link
― Bruno Ganz and Babaloo Mandel (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:43 (three years ago) link
https://ilarge.lisimg.com/image/22657703/740full-night-train-to-lisbon-screenshot.jpg9
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:44 (three years ago) link
Look I thought this was a judgement free zone. Of course ban cars. Ban everything. Murder me.
― Bruno Ganz and Babaloo Mandel (Boring, Maryland), Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:44 (three years ago) link
ban cars
Take it to the reveal your cool revolutionary beliefs thread.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 21:46 (three years ago) link
My uncool conservative belief is it smells like shit. Not literally.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:06 (three years ago) link
sounds like the people smoking near you just haven't found the right strain
― this honking's on a bobo (Doctor Casino), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:10 (three years ago) link
It smells good when you're smoking it, terrible when you're not.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:11 (three years ago) link
weed smells good, so does tobacco and petrol.
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:17 (three years ago) link
No they don't. Paraffin does though.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:21 (three years ago) link
Tobacco also smells good when you're smoking it. Gasoline smells great at all times (cue 'Gasoline Dreams').
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:21 (three years ago) link
yeah that's good too.bad smells: burnt hair, moxibustion smoke, halva
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:22 (three years ago) link
Also bad:
Semen Smell
I don't want to necro this thread but it had to be acknowledged somehow.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:24 (three years ago) link
It's not so much people smoking it as people who've smoked so much of it they stink of it.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:24 (three years ago) link
I mean if I am walking past someone in the street and they are smoking tobacco or weed or most vape fluids, that's generally a good smell, but any of these infused into stale clothes with sweat are bad.
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:28 (three years ago) link
the weird semen smell from whatever tree that is, it's not offensive but I don't enjoy it
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:30 (three years ago) link
The linden tree? Per that Mitchell and Webb sketch? I never got that at all. Those smells have nothing in common.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:32 (three years ago) link
I don't know if it's the linden, it really does smell like fruity cum though
― Bastard Lakes (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:33 (three years ago) link
it's the bradford pear tree, big tree with white flowers all over in the spring
― superdeep borehole (harbl), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:35 (three years ago) link
This is a bit of a tangent but I was really confused when I found out Brits call linden tea 'lime flower tea'. I mean, lime trees are something else entirely.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:37 (three years ago) link
Was confused about this in a book I just read (Bringing Up the Bodies, maybe):
Tilia is a genus of about 30 species of trees or bushes, native throughout most of the temperate Northern Hemisphere. The tree is known as linden for the European species, and basswood for North American species. In Britain and Ireland they are commonly called lime trees or lime bushes, although they are not closely related to the tree that produces the lime fruit.
― bulb after bulb, Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:53 (three years ago) link
semen and weed both smell amazing sheesh
― John Cooper of Christian rock band Skillet (map), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:55 (three years ago) link
i mean they gotta be fresh otherwise yeah they smell bad
― John Cooper of Christian rock band Skillet (map), Saturday, 20 March 2021 22:56 (three years ago) link
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/under-the-yum-yum-tree/
― "Salvation Army FUCK!" (Neanderthal), Saturday, 20 March 2021 23:01 (three years ago) link
Male gingko trees, when fruiting, can smell pretty nastily of sex.
As for
This is true of most smokables and most smokers ime. When you're smoking something, it's on fire right underneath your nose. So it smells fine to you because you immediately become nose-blind to it. Everyone around you? Not so much.
Hence, smokers frequently don't understand why nonsmokers are annoyed by the smell of smoke And nonsmokers don't understand why smokers don't understand their annoyance.
― vaya con carne (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 21 March 2021 01:01 (three years ago) link
i prefer the smell when someone else is smoking it, especially at a distance. it's sweeter? and i love the smell of weed itself (like, not being smoked) best
― flopson, Sunday, 21 March 2021 01:13 (three years ago) link
Flopson, in my youth I loved the smell of pipe tobacco, but only when someone else was smoking - when I smoked a pipe myself it wasn't nearly as nice (because of the nise-blind phenomenon). My college roommate and I would sometimes take turns for precisely that reason.
Also I have always loved the smell of cigarettes before they're burned. I used to live in a city where when the wind was right you could smell the tobacco drying in barns and it was lovely.
― vaya con carne (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 21 March 2021 01:19 (three years ago) link
tobacco pre-burnt smells like raisins to me
― flopson, Sunday, 21 March 2021 01:39 (three years ago) link
It's the sweet chestnut that smells of semen. Around June/July, when they're flowering, the woods fair reek of jizz.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Sunday, 21 March 2021 09:13 (three years ago) link
there are too many people on the planet.
this one really seems to rile up left-leaning people but i just don't see how it's not true. yes, we have immense capacity for reducing our footprints. yes, often the next step taken from this baseline statement is to start talking about how to reduce that population, which is An Unspeakable Sin, Apparently. but i just think it's so hubristic to deny it. we are animals. the same rules apply to us as other animal populations, broadly speaking.
the most egalitarian way to address this would be to start pushing male birth control hard, but since most of the world seems to be driven by men having unbridled access to women's bodies as property, it seems a change of heart there is unlikely. so capitalism interlocking with colonialism and racism is going to do the "thinnning out" in a very not-egalitarian fashion for us.
― John Cooper of Christian rock band Skillet (map), Thursday, 25 March 2021 21:12 (three years ago) link
Population decline tends to take care of itself.
― Canon in Deez (silby), Thursday, 25 March 2021 21:14 (three years ago) link
The reason people yell at you is that any policy measures aimed at population control have a pretty eugenicist stink on them. It's not like it'd be less racist.
It is very funny and strange to me that declining birth rates make economists upset
― Canon in Deez (silby), Thursday, 25 March 2021 21:17 (three years ago) link
But yeah when the earth's carrying capacity for humans declines you will have fewer humans, also fertility has been declining globally for decades already https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/
― Canon in Deez (silby), Thursday, 25 March 2021 21:35 (three years ago) link
the malthusian issue will only come into play if we actually make the radical changes to our way of life that are required by climate change and then that's the issue that is left over. as that is not going to happen people should have all the kids they want.
― 《Myst1kOblivi0n》 (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 March 2021 21:42 (three years ago) link
just be aware that they live til they're old things will probably suck ass (i kind of want to have a kid despite this)
lol map I appreciate you not beefing with me on FB regarding this, I hear what u are saying but yeah fertility just keeps going down, nature bats last, etc.
― I like signing up to dead sites (sleeve), Thursday, 25 March 2021 21:49 (three years ago) link
Adults shouldn’t use slang.
― Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Tuesday, 15 June 2021 05:41 (two years ago) link
that sentence slaps
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 15 June 2021 11:50 (two years ago) link
calm
― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 15 June 2021 12:03 (two years ago) link
I can't enjoy the deaths of even the very worst murderers and the celebrations online make me feel really queasy.
If they are evil politicians, otoh, I can wholeheartedly join in with the fun.
― edited to reflect developments which occurred (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 21:35 (two years ago) link
tbf the worst murderers fail to kill anyone. evil politicians succeed.
― balance transfer eligible (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 7 October 2021 01:21 (two years ago) link
if you want to listen to or watch something on public transport you should wear headphones
ppl blasting stuff out of their cars I'm ok with tho
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 21 October 2021 15:08 (two years ago) link
I don't think it's particularly conservative to want people to be baseline courteous when everyone around them is trapped in a tiny box. We even have explicit rules against that behavior on our public transport.
― Gimme some skin! Because I don't have any skin. (Old Lunch), Thursday, 21 October 2021 15:21 (two years ago) link
Does it make me conservative to say 95% of the time I hate the music blasting out of cars though? I live in a neighborhood where just the worst garbage driveltunes are blasted to the max with an inverse relationship between taste and volume. Coupled with all those modifications to also make the car itself (engine) as loud as possible as well.
― Evan, Thursday, 21 October 2021 16:23 (two years ago) link
Yeah this no headphones in public thing is getting horrible
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 21 October 2021 16:26 (two years ago) link
The Guardian sends two people on a blind date to a restaurant every week and then asks them about it, this was this week's
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/16/blind-date-andrew-marta
Any awkward moments?A man on the next table was watching a horror film loudly on his laptop. The constant screams were a tad awkward.
― koogs, Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:23 (two years ago) link
was sat at a restaurant once with a guy watching porn videos on his phone at the next table, that was in guangzhou though so doesn't really count
― edited to reflect developments which occurred (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:27 (two years ago) link
We even have explicit rules against that behavior on our public transport.
I wish we had. It used to be kids who did this but, where I am anyway, it's now almost overwhelmingly adults - and I mean people in their 30s/40s/50s.
― Starmer: "Let the children boogie, let all the children boogie." (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:31 (two years ago) link
I don't like people driving around playing loud music driving through neighborhoods at night (like my son's friends who roll up to the house at 10:30 pm to hang out) but I enjoy pulling up to someone in traffic who has something loud on. It doesn't even have to be (and usually isn't) music I like, but it's good atmosphere for me.
― peace, man, Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:48 (two years ago) link
Also wanted to mention that I think people blast music in cars way less than they used to, but it may just be my own experience. Can anyone confirm?
― peace, man, Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:49 (two years ago) link
When terrestrial radio was still a thing, I used it as a gauge. The last time I got a thrill was early April 2020 at the peak of lockdown when the car beside me at the stoplight blasted Dua Lipa's "Levitating" and I thought, yeah.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:51 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDazrJuSdA
― John Stockton buying a used car from (Karl Malone), Thursday, 21 October 2021 17:53 (two years ago) link
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown),
Yeah I'm not into that
Also not into those portable blutooth speakers especially in the park, at the beach
Don't really mind music blasting from cars as long as they're moving and not standing or idling l
― The 25 Best Songs Ever Ranked In Order (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 21 October 2021 18:08 (two years ago) link
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, October 21, 2021 12:26 PM bookmarkflaglink
I used to hate Sia's "Chandelier" because before boarding a Megabus, this kid in the seat across from me kept playing the chorus and only the chorus on her handheld device. Loudly. At 6 in the morning.
BLOT: if u don't wear headphones I'll meet you off the bus
― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Thursday, 21 October 2021 18:28 (two years ago) link
actively pro bluetooth speakers at the park, beach, etc, that's literally what they're for, just keep the volume courteous imo
having a conversation over speaker phone in public is absolutely depraved, however
― gbx, Thursday, 21 October 2021 19:53 (two years ago) link
park/beach definitely. I have a tiny little bluetooth speaker for that type of thing, was really affordable from Oontz
― Gardyloominati (Neanderthal), Thursday, 21 October 2021 19:59 (two years ago) link
speakerphone in public i'm tempted to join in the convo but I don't because the person on speaker didn't choose to be on speaker but part of me wants to alert them to the fact that they're on it and their convo isn't private
i probably posted upthread about this but someone at the airport once had a speakerphone convo about their debauched hen party weekend with someone, very loudly, and it seemed pretty apparent that a) the person on the other end probably would not have said what they were saying if they knew it was v much in public and b) the person on my end (in the airport terminal) was enjoying the exhibitionism, she kept looking around to see if anyone was listening
― gbx, Thursday, 21 October 2021 20:03 (two years ago) link
Think about how they’re not blasting their ears using headphones & feel good for them
― badg, Thursday, 21 October 2021 20:24 (two years ago) link
― gbx, Thursday, October 21, 2021 2:53 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
i'm pretty sure that this "pizza talking" speakerphone thing is 100% the result of people emulating reality tv shows where everything had to be on speakerphone for the cameras
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 21 October 2021 21:18 (two years ago) link
C/D: holding a phone in front of your face as if it were a slice of pizza
― mothersbaugh of invention (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 22 October 2021 01:56 (two years ago) link
i was thinking a bit today about the fentanyl flood, mostly because i saw a dude just cold zonk out standing up at the sandwich place and smack his head on the corner of a table.
anyway, one of the fever swamp theories is that the chinese govt is pumping the US full of cheap fentanyl just to nakedly weaken and kill americans, and/or for the money. there's no good reason at all to believe this, but if somehow it turned out to be true i wouldn't be at all surprised. why not? it is exactly what the british empire did to china, and what US intelligence did to americans more than once
the recent nyt story about this (relying on a book by Ben Westhoff i haven't read) only identifies china as the source, or source of the raw materials that go into it. trump pressured china to ban all varieties of fentanyl, which apparently they did, but china is still named as the ultimate source of the ingredients. the nyt story says nothing on this point, but the invitation is there to suppose that if the precursors were still being exported to the same suppliers with a wink, the chinese state would have to know about it
i'm extremely skeptical of major US journalism about china these days. just something that came to mind.
― goole, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 05:04 (two years ago) link
Probably my most hardcore, far-right opinion:
https://www.methodsman.com/blog/gas-stove-statistics?fbclid=IwAR1ZH3rDX3-f9XFl3CHBcC7jLKNFwsAiGNgkR2TLyFhKgRHSuf19igCEKdA
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 03:18 (one year ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1LjDgzntvI
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 03:19 (one year ago) link
idk you also were toying with the notion of buying guns to defend your suburban homestead from imagined home invaders
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 03:54 (one year ago) link
pretty sure you're talking about the thread where I was talking about buying a gun because of fear of fascists, but ok
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 04:34 (one year ago) link
But here, you can read all of my posts about it in this thread, or, if you prefer, just make some up to support your strawman of me
Are you considering purchasing a gun?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 04:37 (one year ago) link
the gas stove post is completely idiotic
― flopson, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 04:46 (one year ago) link
Is this another American thing where gas means petrol
― kinder, Wednesday, 15 February 2023 16:41 (one year ago) link
it means farts
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 16:48 (one year ago) link
no "natural gas" -- America had a brief post trump stress disorder flashback seizure where some govt agency made a probably misguided suggestion to ban gas stoves, conservatives seized on it as they're coming for arr freedom, and then liberals had to reflexively take the polar opposite position and started throwing their stoves out the window. In reality, there are probably some decent environmental arguments for phasing out gas stoves (assuming we can actually make our electric grid cleaner, which it isn't yet), and induction stoves are very energy efficient and, though expensive, starting to come down in price. However, one of the main "facts" that has been cited against gas stoves is that they are "responsible for" some large % of child asthma cases, and that is just not true, it's based entirely on bad use of statistics.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 16:55 (one year ago) link
America had a brief post trump stress disorder flashback seizure where some govt agency made a probably misguided suggestion to ban gas stoves
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-09/us-safety-agency-to-consider-ban-on-gas-stoves-amid-health-fears
in reality, one official (trumka jr) raised banning it in an interview, and in the same interview also suggested that other options, including setting standards on emissions from the appliances.
(assuming we can actually make our electric grid cleaner, which it isn't yet)
by the wording of this, i assume you mean "clean", and it'll never be 100% clean, so that's not a very good goal. if you mean "cleaner", as in, "improving",
https://i.imgur.com/AlfxKTK.pnghttps://electrifynow.net/fact-the-electric-grid-is-getting-cleaner-every-day
that was before the pandemic. but clean energy is now much, much cheaper per MWh than coal, and recently the costs have even dipped below natural gas. and many states have passed laws mandating 100% clean energy by 2035, 2040, 2050, etc. the winning argument, as always, is to be very cynical and say that those states will never get there. but they are doing better and making progress toward it, especially the states that aren't run by conservatives.
― President of Destiny Encounters International (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 15 February 2023 17:43 (one year ago) link
Claims about 'capitalism' producing a bad life condition (like, say, 'being a slave to the clock of the working day') are often implicitly predicated on a better alternative which once existed, whereas, unfortunately, in actual history (eg absolutism, feudalism, and arguably Stalinism also), it didn't.
This isn't truly a 'conservative' argument because it is, I hope, consonant with the Marxian view that capitalism represented progress and needs to be developed further / built on for something better, not reversed.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 16 February 2023 16:24 (one year ago) link
Pre-covid I remember having an argument with a fellow anarchist friend about this ... and he was kinda in denial about feudalism, and kept referring to some version of land stewardship by peasants minus kings/lords that seemed to be the exception to the rule
― sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:28 (one year ago) link
ecologically, tho, capitalism could well yet prove fatal to humanity
― satori enabler (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:32 (one year ago) link
Like we agreed on the goals for the future, but were arguing about his premise that Capitalism was some "exile from Eden" thing whereas I was saying, "life was shit prior to Capitalism, there was no pre-Capitalist Eden"
― sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:32 (one year ago) link
xp - I'd argue that humanity could well prove fatal to humanity
― sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:33 (one year ago) link
it's the Lou Reed fallacy ... romanticizing being born 1000 years ago and sailing on a great big clipper ship ... dude would have gotten scurvy and been miserable tbrrwu
― sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:35 (one year ago) link
we're talking Lou Reed here lol
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:36 (one year ago) link
Also clipper ships didn’t exist 1,000 years ago
― Alicia Silver Stone (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:40 (one year ago) link
well Lou Reed is dead now so
― sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:49 (one year ago) link
Have to agree strongly with Sarahell. Life was bad back then - unfortunately.
Tend to agree with N Vague also. Capitalist infliction of ecological damage very dangerous for humans, as well as others.
So, agree that ecological case vs capital is a strong one, though from purely human POV, return to sustainable serfdom not a good plan.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:57 (one year ago) link
She said hey babe
Take a sail on a clipper ship
And the colored girls go
ahoy ahoy ahoy hoy hoy hoy hoy ahoy avast avast ahoy hoy
― tajmahalia jackson (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 16 February 2023 17:59 (one year ago) link
apparently life was pretty swell in precolonial Hawaii
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Thursday, 16 February 2023 18:26 (one year ago) link
I don't understand UK politics
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 05:36 (one year ago) link
at some base level we're just talking about stronger people exploiting weaker people, with "strength" and "weakness" determined largely by economic status. And that's a tendency that far, far predates the industrial world that birthed Marxism, right?
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 15:38 (one year ago) link
Don't see how that's conservative but I'm willing to hear the case.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 23 March 2023 15:52 (one year ago) link
As in, America is way more conservative than the UK
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 15:58 (one year ago) link
Ah. Just about, I guess, but the UK is catching up quickly and is insanely conservative compared to most of Europe. UKILX posters v much not representative, lol.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 23 March 2023 15:59 (one year ago) link
At least the US has legal weed and depending on which state you're in you might not be burned at the stake for being trans.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 23 March 2023 16:01 (one year ago) link
some of the US has better weather ...
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 16:04 (one year ago) link
I like how Mr. Bean gets presented as this aloof little dumb guy when in reality he's a massive dick to everyone he comes across. maybe I just don't get the UK mentality
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 March 2023 16:04 (one year ago) link
is Mr. Bean related to Bosom Manor?
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 16:05 (one year ago) link
Mr Bean easily the most successful British cultural export within my lifetime, beloved around the globe, everyone loves a massive dick. lest we forget this recent international incident:
http://news.sky.com/story/next-time-send-the-real-mr-bean-the-bizarre-feud-between-zimbabwe-and-pakistan-surrounding-t20-world-cup-12732125
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 23 March 2023 16:22 (one year ago) link
I prefer the older, less problematic British entertainment like Benny Hill
― carne asana (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:02 (one year ago) link
Mr Bean easily the most successful British cultural export ... everyone loves a massive dick
TIL
― عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:05 (one year ago) link
That's OK, I don't understand US politics.
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:07 (one year ago) link
i don't think those of us that live here do either
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:13 (one year ago) link
after listening to some deranged republican congresswoman railing against Tik Tok earlier I'd say US politics can be the politics of envy sometimes
― calzino, Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:19 (one year ago) link
Envy, fear, anger and resentment.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 23 March 2023 20:39 (one year ago) link
New board description?
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Thursday, 23 March 2023 21:45 (one year ago) link
90s Napalm Death album
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Thursday, 23 March 2023 21:50 (one year ago) link
An unpopular view that I increasingly hold is:
"I can't be anti-X, some of my best friends are X" is a statement that is automatically ridiculed, at best. But actually this statement is a natural and intuitive thing for anyone to say, if the second half of it is true.
I think the formulation's extremely bad reputation must come from it being so often used when it is not true. If Donald Trump is accused of racism and says "They say that about me, but some of my best friends are black", thinking of the time he had one black advisor - then this response is false.
But if someone is accused of homophobia and immediately thinks: "Wait a minute, my two closest confidants are gay, I'm giving a speech at a lesbian wedding next month, I work with an almost all gay team in my job at the LGBT bookshop, and my wife volunteers at the local gay LGBT archive" -- then that person may, in fact, have quite good reason to be puzzled by the accusation.
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 29 March 2023 08:05 (one year ago) link
i rather think the issue is more likely to be the first half of the statement tbf
― Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 March 2023 08:55 (one year ago) link
Bigotry does not confine itself to open hatred, it is perfectly possible to have amiable relations with members of a group while still holding prejudiced views against that group. Hell, it's possible to be in a group and hold those views about it!
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 29 March 2023 09:18 (one year ago) link
Every decent person agrees that using slurs is racist. It's evil, let us say, and directed at a person.
Most decent people will not see how housing and immigration policy are racist. They're abstractions, not directed at a neighbor, a child, or, worse, a friend.
― the very juice and sperm of kindness. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 29 March 2023 09:21 (one year ago) link
xpost yeah, that's where the "you're one of the GOOD ones" trope comes from
― hootenanny-soundtracking clusterfucks about milking cows (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 29 March 2023 14:00 (one year ago) link
it does seem true that every person who is adamant that undocumented immigrants should be deported and forced to "do it the right way" cannot name a single person they think should be deported
― frogbs, Wednesday, 29 March 2023 15:03 (one year ago) link
Grand National protesters should be shot
― contrapuntal aversion (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 15 April 2023 16:28 (one year ago) link
Would make a change from the horses being shot.
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Saturday, 15 April 2023 18:00 (one year ago) link
I dunno if this is "conservative," but I still believe that most, if not all, people are capable of redemption.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 15 April 2023 19:07 (one year ago) link
Yet to meet a conservative who believes that tbh
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, 15 April 2023 20:20 (one year ago) link
conservatism seems to be very into the idea of a hard division between the worthy and the worthless
― contrapuntal aversion (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 15 April 2023 21:10 (one year ago) link
Re: capitalism and etc, what many radicals are bemoaning is quite obviously the enclosure of the commons and the basic structures of primitive accumulation, which I dunno, I think most reasonable people are not into?
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Sunday, 16 April 2023 11:49 (one year ago) link
Marx didn’t think pre-capitalist life was better than capitalism. He thought capitalism was a stage of development on the way to communism.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 16 April 2023 15:39 (one year ago) link
Not every radical is a marxist! That being said, a quick google reveals Marx wrote directly about the enclosure of the commons and his take wasn't "this is a positive step towards communism".
― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 16 April 2023 15:52 (one year ago) link
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 bookmarkflaglink
That isn't really the case. You can be a Marxist without having read much Marx or theory, but capitalism driving the world to it's end in ecological catastrophe can't be explained merely by weak Vs strong.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 18 April 2023 07:44 (one year ago) link
I think the issue with that statement is you can sub in all sorts of things for "the industrial world" - stronger people exploiting weaker people predates monarchy, the enslavement of African peoples by European colonizers, fascism...all still true,right? And you could make the case that the end of those things merely paved the way for new forms of exploitation, but I think it's inarguable that ppl are better off without them. People tend to assume this messianic attitude...I'm under no illusions that a society without capitalism would be a perfect one. It might just be a little bit less miserable is all!
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 18 April 2023 09:32 (one year ago) link
Marx didn’t think pre-capitalist life was better than capitalism. He thought capitalism was a stage of development on the way to communism.― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, April 16, 2023 11:39 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, April 16, 2023 11:39 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
he thought it was a painful historical epoch to live through for most people, but a necessary one because it laid bare the exploitative nature of social relations. previously, these were harder to perceive, in his reading, because they were seen as natural, traditional, and stable.
― treeship., Tuesday, 18 April 2023 12:21 (one year ago) link
i think his analysis of capitalism is correct. it is a system where value is produced by labor, but laborers do not reap the profits of their labor. it is also a system that demands constant growth and so it tramples all over any attempt to restrain it for ecological, humanitarian, or other reasons. i also agree with his historical argument, that the capitalism gave human subjects a different kind of understanding of themselves in relation to history. suddenly, the social order appeared as something that could be changed fundamentally and not just at the margins. this seems true enough.
what i don't necessarily agree with is his vision of the road to communism, which he outlines in the manifesto, not in capital or anywhere else to my knowledge. this part:
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
to me this seems like the program of forced collectivization stalin instituted in the soviet union. others, like pol pot and mao, did similar things with similar results. there was a period of mass suffering and death as the society shifted from an agricultural economy to an industrial one under central planning.
― treeship., Tuesday, 18 April 2023 12:32 (one year ago) link
And you could make the case that the end of those things merely paved the way for new forms of exploitation, but I think it's inarguable that ppl are better off without them. People tend to assume this messianic attitude...I'm under no illusions that a society without capitalism would be a perfect one. It might just be a little bit less miserable is all!
Agreed! ... though they could end up being more miserable, idk, or less miserable in some ways, more miserable in other ways ... I think I have trouble with the premise that humanity would stop coming up with new forms of exploitation ... not that I'm arguing that we are currently at the least misery possible and it's all downhill from here ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 18 April 2023 13:52 (one year ago) link
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, April 15, 2023 12:07 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Daniel_Rf, Saturday, April 15, 2023 1:20 PM (three days ago)
I have actually tbh -- though they can still believe this and be a cheerleader for the Carceral state at the same time ... achieve redemption while serving a life sentence in a Supermax for-profit prison ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 18 April 2023 13:56 (one year ago) link
"he can be redeemed...through Christ"
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 18 April 2023 14:36 (one year ago) link
People tend to assume this messianic attitude...I'm under no illusions that a society without capitalism would be a perfect one. It might just be a little bit less miserable is all!
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 18 April 2023 bookmarkflaglink
I've been guilty of thinking a lot of problems will go away if money was abolished and you'd run society in a different way...I think it will be better. Anyway, I'd like it worked through, thanks!
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 19 April 2023 13:19 (one year ago) link
Lots of problems def would go away, others might spring up, worth a try I say.
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 19 April 2023 13:25 (one year ago) link
Boots Riley of The Coup once said something like (I'm majorly paraphrasing and probably butchering): "Communism will not be perfect and will have its problems but at least at its heart has the common good of the people as its goal".
which is why I'd prefer it to the glut we have now
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 19 April 2023 13:28 (one year ago) link
it's weird people identifying capitalism as evil don't think removing it will be a panacea
― contrapuntal aversion (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 19 April 2023 13:32 (one year ago) link
I didn't really have in mind the Handmaid's Tale version of redemption.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 19 April 2023 16:05 (one year ago) link
communist countries have money btw
― flopson, Wednesday, 19 April 2023 16:07 (one year ago) link
“everyone has to barter now” notable absent from this list
― flopson, Wednesday, 19 April 2023 16:10 (one year ago) link
Nobody's perfect xp
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 19 April 2023 16:10 (one year ago) link
Death Row is the label that redistributes wealth to meUnfadeable so please don't try to fade me
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 19 April 2023 16:17 (one year ago) link
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Wednesday, April 19, 2023 6:28 AM (yesterday)
he's said stuff along those lines many times, so it's highly likely you aren't butchering anything ... i remember him giving a 15-30 minute rallying speech on a similar topic at Occupy Oakland before thousands marched and shut down the Port for part of a day ... it didn't really seem like it took that much to shut down the Port tbh, the dockworkers were in solidarity and the bosses were like, "fine, take a day" idk
― sarahell, Thursday, 20 April 2023 14:16 (eleven months ago) link
tbh The Coup's Steal This Album formed a lot of my (still held) political beliefs
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Thursday, 20 April 2023 14:31 (eleven months ago) link
(though I was never much of an activist, unlike him obv)
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Thursday, 20 April 2023 14:32 (eleven months ago) link
every so often I will see him at the grocery store ... though I don't think he actually shops there because it's owned by the oppressor. It is possible he expropriates from there, much like this other punk comrade avant-garde film dude who I would regularly see there, and would experience cognitive dissonance until I much later found out that he was actually just getting expensive food and not paying for it, which was v much in character.
― sarahell, Thursday, 20 April 2023 14:35 (eleven months ago) link
Teaching kids musical instruments is not white supremacy
https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/olympia-school-district-to-ax-music-classes-for-pushing-white-supremacy/?fbclid=IwAR1BsN0oNlbTPiCZZUT7nbiMQ0JsuikDc8EKtO28KRkq8YYG7Wmel6M57VA&mibextid=uc01c0
Neither is not giving your kids juice and soda https://annehelen.substack.com/p/how-to-have-the-fat-talk?publication_id=2450&utm_medium=email&action=share&isFreemail=false
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:17 (eleven months ago) link
Yeah, I’m sure the (fucking) NY Post has no ulterior motive there. Not only does the criticism say that some students are being forced to miss core classes if they take music, the board is actually quoted as literally saying “There is nothing intrinsically white supremacist” about it, the concern seems to be rooted in students having to miss lunch periods and core classes to take music - and presumably that affects certain demographics more hence the poorly worded reasoning.
― Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:36 (eleven months ago) link
― got it in the blood, the kid's a pelican (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:44 (eleven months ago) link
yeah man alive, maybe read the article first
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:46 (eleven months ago) link
I will not sit idly by while the journalistic integrity of the NEW YORK POST is besmirched!
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:47 (eleven months ago) link
Re the second article, I have my own qualms with some of the fat pride movement, but that certain types of products are pushed more in certain neighborhoods is undoubtedly true and most certainly a secondary or tertiary result of racial capitalism
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:50 (eleven months ago) link
Well since the ultimate reason they’re cutting this extra music lesson elective (not the regular music class) in fourth grade (not any of the subsequent grades) is budget deficit, I am sure that the editorial board of the NY Post will advocate for increased funding for the arts in elementary schools and less emphasis on teaching to standardized testing, right? Right??? Cmon man alive don’t take that bait.
― Lavator Shemmelpennick, Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:55 (eleven months ago) link
Disappointed that the publishers of "Headless Man Found in Topless Bar" lacked their usual nuance in this article
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:56 (eleven months ago) link
Tabes otm
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Thursday, 27 April 2023 12:57 (eleven months ago) link
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Thursday, 27 April 2023 14:11 (eleven months ago) link
how uncool
― michel goindry (wins), Thursday, 27 April 2023 14:16 (eleven months ago) link
How’s gun shopping going man alive
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Thursday, 27 April 2023 14:54 (eleven months ago) link
fair enough on NYPost bait -- although it kind of sounds like the director tried to shield his decision with some extremely vague, almost bureaucratic language invoking white supremacy when it was really all budget cuts (or else he's just really bad at clarifying why offering this elective was not inclusive or equitable)https://news3lv.com/news/nation-world/school-board-director-clarifies-white-supremacy-remarks-made-during-budget-talks-olympia-school-district-osd-washington-state-music-program-shortfall-band-strings
Of course, but how is not wanting your own kids to consume those products white supremacy? Are parents in those neighborhoods who don't let their own kids have the products also part of white supremacy culture?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 27 April 2023 18:54 (eleven months ago) link
I don't believe the interviewee in that article is saying what you think they're saying.
― got it in the blood, the kid's a pelican (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 27 April 2023 19:06 (eleven months ago) link
I didn't really get that from the substack, tbh?
the focus seemed more on the idea that there's a stigma against parents who allow their children to consume more juice than the AAP suggests, as if it makes you a bad 'parent', and how they feel the anti-juice movement is based in misinformation (I can't speak to that as I'm no nutritionist), and ignores some of the root causes of why juice is so popular/sought out in general. Yeah, there are a few criticisms against parents who are strict on juice (the virtue signaling comment being one), but nothing that suggests you're a white supremacist.
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Thursday, 27 April 2023 19:09 (eleven months ago) link
xpost DC otm
man alive fell for Facebook rage bait and that’s the director’s fault
― Everybody's gonna get what they got coming (gyac), Thursday, 27 April 2023 19:10 (eleven months ago) link
police the shit out of dudes riding actual fucking motorcycles down the sidewalk imo
would support an e bike ban & enforcement if that's what's giving ppl license
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 00:47 (one month ago) link
Scooters too
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 00:47 (one month ago) link
i mean knock it off for sure but i don't think anyone's life should be severely impacted for riding their ebike or scooter down the sidewalk
your stupid fucking harley is where i draw the line tho
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 00:55 (one month ago) link
I mean, I wouldn't advocate for arresting anyone (unless they injured someone else), but heavy fines would not be out of line.
Hell, you're not supposed to ride a non-motorized bike on the sidewalk.
I do recognize, though, that riding on the street may be more hazardous.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 00:59 (one month ago) link
if we're talking scooters and ebikes, i'd stop at a warning BUT SERIOUSLY KNOCK IT OFF
crushingly hefty fines for motorcyclists would be appropriate imo
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 01:12 (one month ago) link
just a little ticket, a lesson in how to just be normal
― brony james (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 01:20 (one month ago) link
I have a push scooter and a bicycle (both unmotorized). Normally I ride in traffic on the street, but there are certain places and times where it just isn't feasible.
There is a severe power imbalance between a Ford F-150 that is going 40 miles per hour and me on a bicycle. I feel like I should be allowed some wiggle room on the whole "I do not wish to die horribly" thing.
― alpaca lips now (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 01:30 (one month ago) link
absolutely, you're good. i feel like push scooters on the sidewalk are ok as long as you're not flying and dismount where it's crowded
context for above: i live in manhattan, this started being a thing after ebike laws changed
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 01:33 (one month ago) link
seldom enforced ban lifted, to be more precise
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 01:35 (one month ago) link
Have seen people on motorized scooters (like actually scooters, not Vespas) cause horrible accidents twice now. People should not be riding those things on sidewalks, period.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:12 (one month ago) link
the big motorized ones, nothe little razor scooters and similar are finevespas = fuck off obv
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:14 (one month ago) link
they shouldn't be riding them on the streets either I hit the tiniest pothole in the history of potholes and biffed it so hard into a tree that I was bleeding from 5 different plaecs
― frogbs, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:14 (one month ago) link
100% agree
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:14 (one month ago) link
oof sorry
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:16 (one month ago) link
admittedly it was kind of funny like this was literally the only tree on that road it was like some Looney Tunes shit
― frogbs, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:23 (one month ago) link
"Looney, that is!"
https://i.imgur.com/YKDH4dP.jpg
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:43 (one month ago) link
a friend fell off a Vespa once and busted his face! well he was more like a sugar daddy. then 3 weeks later he insisted I go for a ride with him and I don't know why I got on. those bends!
― Swen, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:46 (one month ago) link
it was real awkward too because I was out with a friend and my wife was throwing a party for the girls while I was out. so like I couldn't just come home all fucked up. we wound up just staying out and drinking beers outside. wound up coming home after she was asleep and had to wake her up and be like uhhh if you see me don't freak out. also should mention she never wanted to ride those when I suggested we should because she thought they were really dangerous
― frogbs, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:48 (one month ago) link
omg you just drove like right into the tree, it sounds like
― Swen, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:53 (one month ago) link
The few times I’ve been on one of the app rental scooters I have felt very unsafe, like the brakes would fail at any moment or the thing would snap in two.
― from a prominent family of bassoon players (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 03:59 (one month ago) link
yeah so I hit this 2 inch deep pothole and it made the front wheel go all wobbly and I couldn't control it with the handlebar. it started going all topsy turvy and my brain gives my body the signal to just bail and go into a barrel roll but before I can move I hit a curb and just faceplanted into the one fucking tree on the whole block. at least that's what it felt like, but I got my hand out in front of my face so that's what took the worst of it. but it got my arm, my forehead, my stomach, and part of my leg. thought I broke my hand but somehow I didn't. amazingly it did not hurt at all afterwards, I just walked away as both passer-bys and my Apple watch asked me if they should call the police. it sure as hell hurt that night though.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 04:00 (one month ago) link
Omigod
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 04:01 (one month ago) link
froggy baby :(
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 12:42 (one month ago) link
I had a similar thing on a bike, just flew right off a hill. a neighborhood woman took me in and dressed my wounds when I was like 11. will never forget her.
― Swen, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 13:22 (one month ago) link
oh no!! that would have rattled me at 11
i stopped riding bikes when in the 7th grade my pal and i walked out of his apartment and turned the corner onto Broadway where a cyclist who had just been hit by a bus was lying dead, with her helmet on in the biggest pool of blood i've ever seen.
about 10 years later my best friend and housemate was working as a bike messenger part time and in a bicycle shop part time. one day on her way home she found this amazing ca. 1950's-60's bicycle someone had discarded. it was banana yellow, really gorgeous and retro. and she said, you walk everywhere, you need a bike, it's yours (we lived in long island then, it wouldn't be like riding in the city, and getting around on foot was a drag)
so i couldn't wait to ride it into town! it was a blast, i felt 9 years old again, and rode it down a steep hill FAST.
and the front wheel went flying off the bike. and i was thrown god knows how many feet onto someone's front lawn (thank god) and like i wasn't seriously injured but it fucked me up a littleand i haven't been on a bicycle sinceso the lesson here is don't ride dumpster bikes, kids.
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 19:15 (one month ago) link
I used to work on a farm picking beans in the summer holidays, when I was 13 I used the money to buy a mountain bike. there was a fairly steep road just up the road from my house, which was a dead end so didn't have a lot of traffic, so I used to speed down it over and over, until one time the front wheel hit a manhole cover and launched me over the handlebars. I split my head open and a similar thing happened, a man came out of one of the houses and checked I was OK and went and got my mum. I remember there being blood all down my face so it must have been horrible for her. had to go to A&E and they glued my head back together, I still have a slight lump there (it's under my hair though so can't see it). had nasty road rash on my back which took weeks to heal. it didn't put me off riding a bike but I didn't race down that hill as fast as I could any more.
― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 19:48 (one month ago) link
iirc it tooks ages to find a replacement wheel for the one that buckled so I couldn't ride a bike for months anyway
― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 19:49 (one month ago) link
wow guys intense stuff!
i feel personally that i would not do well like in an emergency room, i'm not the best with blood
― Swen, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 20:26 (one month ago) link
I used to work on a farmpicking beans in the summer holidayswhen I was 13 I used the money to buy a bikethere was a fairly steep road just up the road from my housewhich was a dead end so didn't have a lot of trafficso I used to speed down itover and overuntil one time the front wheel hit a manhole coverand launched me over the handlebarsI split my head open and a similar thing happeneda man came out of one of the houses and checked I was OKand went and got my mumI remember there being blood all down my faceso it must have been horrible for herhad to go to A&E and they glued my head back togetherI still have a slight lump thereit's under my hair though so can't see ithad nasty road rash on my back which took weeks to healit didn't put me off riding a bikebut I didn't race down that hill as fast as I could any more.-John "Cougar" Mellencamp
there was a fairly steep road just up the road from my housewhich was a dead end so didn't have a lot of trafficso I used to speed down itover and over
until one time the front wheel hit a manhole coverand launched me over the handlebars
I split my head open and a similar thing happeneda man came out of one of the houses and checked I was OKand went and got my mum
I remember there being blood all down my faceso it must have been horrible for her
had to go to A&E and they glued my head back togetherI still have a slight lump thereit's under my hair though so can't see it
had nasty road rash on my back which took weeks to healit didn't put me off riding a bikebut I didn't race down that hill as fast as I could any more.
-John "Cougar" Mellencamp
― citation needed (Steve Shasta), Wednesday, 6 March 2024 21:20 (one month ago) link
to crosspost with the "what would you be like at 16?" thread - I think the Florida law banning everyone under 16 from social media is probably a good idea. I mean it's not really enforceable and will likely make no actual difference but I am starting to really believe that teens spending time on Insta or Tiktok really does mess with their value system in a way that is really bad for their mental health
― frogbs, Wednesday, 6 March 2024 21:25 (one month ago) link
I have had some dire bicycle accidents— flown over handlebars, taken huge skids, been doored— but I will never stop riding a bicycle. I love it so much, it is the only mode of transport I truly adore.
― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Thursday, 7 March 2024 02:36 (one month ago) link
i laughed _way_ too fucking hard at this
portland is a really bike-friendly city. unfortunately my cerebellum is not bike-friendly, as in i can't ride a bike, so i wind up walking a lot. no idea if i could use one of those lime scooters or not. never tried.
― Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 7 March 2024 06:38 (one month ago) link
i'm on team "ban all cars" but while that's an uncool belief, it doesn't seem particularly _conservative_.
There's an Old World conservative worldview that I could see it slotting in quite easily with here in Europe. In the US, not so much.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 7 March 2024 11:04 (one month ago) link
Ostentatious car love is definitely conservative coded in the Anglosphere
― from a prominent family of bassoon players (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 7 March 2024 13:09 (one month ago) link
Same everywhere, it's just there's also an ecofascist counterweight.
― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 7 March 2024 13:12 (one month ago) link
My paternal grandfather, who was decidedly conservative, used to say, "I can afford the gas, I'll drive whatever I damn well please." As though being able to afford to drive a gas-guzzling beast was the only consideration.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 7 March 2024 14:51 (one month ago) link
Which, if you are able to externalize every other cost, I suppose it is.
old cars are fucking cool. I’m really into reading about restoring barn finds lately.
― brimstead, Thursday, 7 March 2024 16:57 (one month ago) link
I love restorations, no doubt. Maybe that's uncool?
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 7 March 2024 17:16 (one month ago) link
People like driving for a lot of reasons that make good sense (more targeted mobility, in some cases much shorter transit time, ability to easily transport children and stuff, control over climate/environment, not having people's armpits in your face, etc.), and if you want to move people toward driving less, you have to improve the alternatives rather than just make driving harder or more expensive. I know that's far-fetched in many parts of this dysfunctional country, but that's what I think needs to happen. Even when we build bike lanes they tend to not be very good or well thought out bike lanes. I barely ride a bike, but getting around Berlin on a bike was easy because of the way the lanes and roads are designed. My town just put in a basically useless bike lane that is only marked by paint on the ground and only goes on the main throughfare, and unsurprisingly it gets little use.
What would really make sense in my town is some kind of shuttle bus to downtown/the train station. The town is small enough that you can get from one end to the other in like ten minutes and from most places to the downtown and train station in 5-7 minutes. Even if a shuttle took a few more minutes I think people would take it to not have to deal with parking, and it would reduce a lot of car use. I would gladly hop on a shuttle with the kids if we just wanted to go downtown for a meal or ice cream or whatever.
Anyway, that's not really conservative or liberal I guess - I am pro-transit and car alternatives, but anti-knee-jerk-anti-car-reaction. Cars have their uses but there are a lot of situations where we should be giving people a better alternative.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 18:13 (one month ago) link
Driving can just simply feel good, in a sensual way almost.. not driving in traffic
― brimstead, Thursday, 7 March 2024 18:33 (one month ago) link
i want to drive
― Swen, Thursday, 7 March 2024 18:45 (one month ago) link
Right, it can be enjoyable too, but the sheer enjoyment of driving isn't even #10 on my list of reasons to have a car. I don't think it benefits anyone to pretend that anyone who prefers driving is an asshole, especially when, on top of some of the inherent advantages of driving, our society (at least in the US) is structurally set up to privilege driving in a way that's beyond most individuals' control.
When we lived in the city, I used to take my then baby/toddler on the subway a lot, and you know what? It's fucking hard! The elevators don't work half the time and I would wind up either carrying the stroller down those massive stairs or precariously taking it on the escalator (many of which also often didn't work). And I was lifting regularly at the time and strong enough to carry a toddler in a stroller up 4 flights worth of stairs, but a lot of parents aren't going to be able to do that. Then it's hard to find space for the stroller at any peak time (which in NYC is huge swaths of the day) and you never know if you're going to wind up with someone's butt in your kid's face. And the delays and getting stuck in the tunnels are like 10x more stressful with a little kid. And the bus was fucking impossible with a stroller. Thankfully we could walk to groceries and we eventually got a car, but I can't imagine having to do any kind of shopping via subway with a kid in tow. Is congestion pricing going to fund legit improvements to these issues? I certainly hope so.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 18:46 (one month ago) link
Like what I have now is a very short car commute and the ability to work from home half time, and I certainly prefer less driving to more. It's not about wanting to drive for its own sake.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 18:48 (one month ago) link
yeah good points
― brimstead, Thursday, 7 March 2024 18:56 (one month ago) link
(breathes)
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:02 (one month ago) link
(bites tongue hard)
you seem to be missing the point that cars make life absolutely hellish for the people who don't own them , which in a place like nyc is more than half of everyone, and closer to 80% of manhattanites.
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:04 (one month ago) link
I think man alive's points did implicitly address yours, Deflatormouse?
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:06 (one month ago) link
I love restorations, no doubt. Maybe that's uncool?― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux)
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux)
i mean what kind of restorations are we talking? the stuart restoration? i'd say that's an uncool conservative belief. restoring, like, art, or old cars, or shit like that... i don't necessarily think of that as conservative or uncool.
― Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:09 (one month ago) link
idk if this is a 'conservative belief' but i wish we had japanese laws around cars:
* must provide proof of having a place to park yr car when you purchase it* no overnight street parking allowed
a lot of ppl in the US would read this as 'conservative' because poor ppl don't always have off-street parking available and thus a law like this makes owning a car the sole province of the landed, which i get, but man you really notice how different the urban environment in tokyo is without all the fuckin cars
granted i think these laws have been on the books there since the 1950s or something so yknow
― gbx, Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:10 (one month ago) link
cars specifically make life hellish for parents trying to take baby/toddlers on the subway, because absolutely enormous amounts of public money are spent on roads and highways, versus expanding, maintaining, and improving infrastructure and service standards on transit. many or most of your subway complaints, man alive, are really issues of investment in these things, not innate to the transportation mode. as it is, the deck is stacked, so, yeah, no surprise that driving works really well for some people; we've made it that way! we've built huge swaths of the country entirely around this mode of transportation! but at the expense of so much else.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:12 (one month ago) link
this?
, our society (at least in the US) is structurally set up to privilege driving in a way that's beyond most individuals' control.
which is why i am griping about ebikes upthread instead of cars
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:14 (one month ago) link
the subway in new york objectively sucks in a million ways compared to pretty much every other underground metro system i can think of. that’s not an argument for cars it’s an argument to stop starving the MTA of cash. a point you pretty much made with your bike lane story to be fair.when you think of the number of people subways serve and the economic function of moving workers and consumers from place to place it’s just astonishing how poorly they’re funded. businesses ought to be donating large sums to their upkeep and improvement.bordeaux - a famously conservative city! - has been working on a tram system for about 20 years now and at this point it is extremely good. it’ll take you to and from the airport, the train station, the universities, the outlying suburbs, etc. In fact, there is apparently a plan to ban cars from the entire urban centre (unless you live there). which will drastically reduce the hassle of driving for locals, and make it a nicer place to be for tourists and well, everybody else too
― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:15 (one month ago) link
xxp yep cars make every other form of transit more miserable, if not extremely dangerous
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:16 (one month ago) link
xp to Dr Casino: that was kind of my point. Only I think structures drive individual behavior much more than the other way around. NYC is only as car-oriented as it is because of top-down decisions, and it only has as good a subway as it does for the same reason. You can brow beat people all you want, but they're just never going to take the 2 hour sweaty train or bus trip over the 45 minute air conditioned car trip if they can afford the latter, because that's just how humans are.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:16 (one month ago) link
It's not "people driving cars" that make transit miserable, it's structural investment in car infrastructure and lack thereof in transit.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:17 (one month ago) link
xp, right, so like it seems to me the way to address that in a place like nyc would be to give over the vast swathes of public space devoted to cars back to new yorkers by banning them
thereby making bicycles much safer, buses much faster etc etc
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:23 (one month ago) link
so that we can have green space instead of walking out the door into a concrete hellscape
so that we don't have to carry groceries across roads designed to accommodate bridge traffic etc etc
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:27 (one month ago) link
Pedestrians much safer.
― man in suit and red tie raising his fist (Tom D.), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:28 (one month ago) link
yeah see ymp's post about the scooter, we are sharing the sidewalk with ebikes now, and even the occasional motorcycle because they feel too unsafe in the road
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:31 (one month ago) link
I kind of thought that was the way policy had been going in the last decade or two. E.g. a bunch of bus and bike lanes have been created, citibike, reducing parking in a lot of parts of Manhattan, pedestrian corridors, etc. But they need to also do things to make buses and subways much more user friendly - better maintenance, create spaces for strollers and/or grandma carts of groceries, make the buses easier to board, etc.
I was living in Queens when they built the bike lanes on Queens Blvd, which were tbf not terribly designed or terribly unsafe - they were separated from the main road and seemed fine. At the time we left they were still not getting much use and I don't really know why. For us they just didn't serve any purpose, because there weren't a lot of scenarios where we'd be going down Queens Blvd - everything was pretty much either local in the neighborhood and we walked to it, or we occasionally drove or took the subway for longer trips, but there weren't a lot of trips where "let's bike down Queens Blvd with the kids in a tow cart" would have been a feasible option. Maybe part of the problem is that patterns of living and working need more time to adjust.
TBF, aside from when you have a stroller or a lot of stuff, I think buses are actually a massively underappreciated mode of transit in NYC. In a lot of ways they're much more pleasant and easier than the subway.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:31 (one month ago) link
if they were more frequent and didn’t feel about a billion years old and falling apart people would probably use the more. agree on the general superiority of the bus for many kinds of trips.
― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:34 (one month ago) link
where I live, your public transportation is a really mediocre local rail (Sunrail) that doesn't even fuckin' operate on weekends or run anywhere near late enough to be effective, and covers only a tiny fragment of the city.
we finally have high speed rail between cities (i.e. like Orlando to Miami), which...fuckin' finally, but local transit? a joke, man.
or a bus system (Lynx) that doesn't remotely adhere to its schedule and makes 5-10 mile trips take hours, and half the time you get stranded mid-way through because you have to change buses so many times and invariably one of them either doesn't show up on time or blows by the stop. it's a complete joke. I once had my car towed and trying to take the bus to the tow yard took two hours, and it was like...5 miles away. this was pre-Uber.
eight years ago, my roommate tried to go car free and take the bus 3 miles to work each morning, it showed up so late every day that he was late to work constantly and they threatened to fire him, and the path to work is not well accommodated for cyclists at all (no bike lanes, and one of the most unsafe roads), so he wound up buying a car he couldn't afford.
I don't particularly love being beholden to a car, but man some cities give you little choice. and at this stage, the cat's out of the bag, so I don't see Central Florida getting much better in that regard, esp with Republicans in charge.
― CEO Greedwagon (Neanderthal), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:35 (one month ago) link
xxp i lived off Queens blvd in forest hills at one timecrossing was notoriously dangerous with many pedestrian deathsi used to use the subway underpass just to cross the street for basic errands like grocery shopping. bike lanes on Queens Blvd should be protected by concrete barriers from buses and ambulances etc, with no private cars.
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:35 (one month ago) link
Neanderthal for some reason i thought you live in the burbs.i'm not familiar with your area, and i don't know how feasible banning private cars would be in most places but def think it is very feasible in nyc and especially Manhattan and this is absolutely the right place for it to happen
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:42 (one month ago) link
xxp i lived off Queens blvd in forest hills at one timecrossing was notoriously dangerous with many pedestrian deathsi used to use the subway underpass just to cross the street for basic errands like grocery shopping.bike lanes on Queens Blvd should be protected by concrete barriers from buses and ambulances etc, with no private cars.
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, March 7, 2024 2:35 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Yeah, that's where I lived. Crossing QB was definitely dangerous (I had to do it every day to take my kid to preschool) and I sometimes used the underpass too, but I don't think safety was the reason almost no one used the bike lanes - they were in the service road and not in the main road, which was much less dangerous, and they had those yellow divider thingies between them and the car lane (cars would occasionally still double park or use them to go around other cars, but it didn't seem like a major issue).
Interestingly, I could hypothetically commute to my job on a single bus that stops relatively near my house. It's around 1 hour each way. But the car takes 15-20 minutes. It's hard to justify losing that time every day. Maybe I'll try it sometime just to see how it goes.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:46 (one month ago) link
WRT Manhattan, I agree a near-ban on cars is plausible but I don't think you can do a complete ban. There are too many legit commercial uses, people with limited mobility, people with tons of stuff to transport, etc. And then it becomes a question of how you would limit cars to only those uses, but I assume that's part of the reason a lot of parking now in Manhattan is commercial vehicles only most of the time.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 19:48 (one month ago) link
For me, the game-changer was being able to bring a bicycle or scooter ONTO the subway train. Making the last mile easier has been of significant benefit. Yes I can walk, but it's way faster on wheels.
― alpaca lips now (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:00 (one month ago) link
i spend a lot of time in Vienna and i adore their investment into public transit. between the subway, street trams, buses, rail and drivers that actually respect the pedestrians/cyclists it's such a pleasure getting anywhere in that city. plus, they don't check for fares on the public transportation - only downside is if you haven't paid for the fare and you caught by patrol you're getting a heavy fine.
― Western® with Bacon Flavor, Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:09 (one month ago) link
xxp do you remember when they put the bike lanes in? i'm fairly sure it was after i moved out (i def have no recollection of a bike lane on qnz blvd, and when i visit the area now i head straight for metropolitan ave, invariably)
buuut you also have to consider that for most people, part of their trip is going to require cycling down a road that doesn't have one. for me personally, and i'm sure many others- i would totally ride a bike if i didn't have to share the road with cars, but getting to and from the bike lanes is scary enough to put me off it completely.
some of the proposals to ban private cars in manhattan would still allow for taxis and rideshares, though i have mixed feelings about it. i can tell you that my health insurance covers door to door transportation to doctor visits (they'll send a shuttle if i request it in advance, not that i ever have). i feel like there are workarounds to everything you're saying, and that some of them are obvious if we don't privilege driving.
i think of the vehicle ban in ancient rome, how deliveries were required to be made overnight.
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:19 (one month ago) link
they don't check for fares on the public transportation - only downside is if you haven't paid for the fare and you caught by patrol you're getting a heavy fine.
this is many nyc buses now
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:21 (one month ago) link
cash strapped mta can't afford the fare evasion tho
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:22 (one month ago) link
I lived in Switzerland for a while and the public transport there sounds similar to Vienna. Yes, Swiss Nazi gold lol but shit was so efficient and clean and well planned - and run on a similar trust system. Once a month, inspectors would be out in force dishing out fines. Even getting out to rural areas was well-planned. You'd get a train to a remote mountain area and there was a bus there waiting to take you the final step of the way (said bus would inevitably double up as a post bus as well).
― I would prefer not to. (Chinaski), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:27 (one month ago) link
It's not "people driving cars" that make transit miserable, it's structural investment in car infrastructure and lack thereof in transit.― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, March 7, 2024 2:17 PM bookmarkflaglink
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, March 7, 2024 2:17 PM bookmarkflaglink
agreed! i think we're on the same page in terms of the basic issues here.
but how do we get from A to B? what's going to drive a change in structural investment/disinvestment? there are probably a lot of steps, but i think part of it has to be a culture shift around driving, the status of cars, how our social problems are defined. many, many drivers have to start seeing the landscape they live in, and the way they're made to live in it, as a problem (social, environmental, economic, etc.). because car people are going to have to get to where they will vote for things that are not 100% gigantic giveaways to cars, car people, and car usage.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:51 (one month ago) link
like to take one example: "build more bike lanes" ---- great! however: the car people are going to vote against this. they come out to every local government meeting to rail against the ones that are already built. they oppose Departments of Transportation being led by people who would support them. they won't let it happen.
so the structural disinvestment continues; as we're all recognizing, the lanes themselves end up being ad hoc, partial, not networked, not really designed as if they're truly a key part of the transportation system. and that severely limits the safety, utility, and pleasantness of biking, so the lanes don't serve the people who need them, and don't shift anywhere close to the needed numbers away from driving. either the car people have to change, or everybody else has to out-organize them, or both.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 7 March 2024 20:55 (one month ago) link
the car people are going to vote against this.
boy wait until you meet 'vehicular cyclists'
― gbx, Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:08 (one month ago) link
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Thursday, March 7, 2024 3:55 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
This model just seems incorrect to me in terms of how politics and development work. Our society is organized around the car because of car and oil industry lobbyists, not because of some voter preference. The voter preference is only at the micro level -- people who are already stuck for work and affordability reasons living in car-oriented exurbs might make "ease the traffic" a factor in their votes. So what do you think is going to fix that, punish the "car people" with even more traffic? No, you need large-scale structural changes that are beyond the purview of individual voters' immediate preferences in an election cycle.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:32 (one month ago) link
I think Measure HLA passed in Los Angeles yesterday?
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:33 (one month ago) link
man alive, i agree about the industrial lobbyist thing up to a point. but now that those lobbyists have created this car-centric world, there are millions of people who have bought into it, both ideologically and literally/economically. and those people absolutely show up to support the conservative car-centric policies of city, county and state DOTs, and to yammer on in the comments under every article that so much as mentions a bicycle, a congestion tax, a train, etc.
they may be parroting industry BS talking points, but they are part of the political landscape. they block good things from happening.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:46 (one month ago) link
yeah true that there are always the knee-jerk anti-bike types. I just don't think "make driving harder" is the solution, unless making driving harder is a mere byproduct of making another form of transit easier. And I also find a lot of myopia in the bike/anti-car activist community to the lifestyles of childless young office workers.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:48 (one month ago) link
My region is extremely bike-friendly, there are extensive trail networks that are all interconnected. However, we also have to deal with some pretty dramatic altitude changes. I feel like if I lived someplace flatter, like Illinois, biking would be more pleasant.
― alpaca lips now (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:52 (one month ago) link
u kno whats cool to keep on track?
threads
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Thursday, 7 March 2024 21:54 (one month ago) link
^ uncool conservative belief
man alive i just finished The Pushcart War w my 12-y-o and this thread is giving me flashbacks lol. you MUST have read it.
― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 7 March 2024 22:01 (one month ago) link
i'm on the same page about structural reformand also changing attitudesthat is to say i actually think you're right that making driving harder won't solve the problem
what galls is that you seem to regard mass transit use as a kind of martyrdom
when in fact driving is an immense privilege that many people can't enjoyand makes things worse for everyone elsemaybe not where you live now but certainly in forest hillsand you know this
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 22:11 (one month ago) link
Making driving harder might not solve "the" problem but it absolutely makes life better. ie low-traffic neighbourhoods like in London
https://madeby.tfl.gov.uk/2020/12/15/low-traffic-neighbourhoods/
― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 7 March 2024 22:24 (one month ago) link
yeah i am pro-making driving harder tbc
i have a cousin who lives in Port Washington, a few mins walk from the LIRR station theregiving her as an example because that is probably the most comfortable commuter rail line in and out if nyc and the one with the best service (i've ridden most of them)i mean you can't make public transit much easier than that
she also hates driving, she us a very nervous driver
this is why she takes the railroad in to visit me: not enough public parking spacestoo much $ to park in a garage
that's the only reason
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Thursday, 7 March 2024 22:29 (one month ago) link
Port Washington commute is a dream. I remember taking the train in from a college friends house there. Compared to my hour and 15 minute trip from past Babylon, it felt like you blinked and were in penn station.
― Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Thursday, 7 March 2024 22:39 (one month ago) link
i mean the essence of the issue is that driving has been made way, way too easy! its attractiveness is propped up by its real costs being socialized and externalized, from the POV of the driver. so the solution kinda has to involve "make driving harder," or it's not a serious solution imho.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Friday, 8 March 2024 00:13 (one month ago) link
thank you, yes!the core issue is def that driving is way, way too comfortable and easy
where i agree with man alive- i think- is that it is SO easy and SO comfortable that making it incrementally more difficult isn't going to discourage it effectively enough
i really do like the solution of banning it outright
i like the idea of candidates proposing very radical reforms that at first seem too radical to most people but bring the problems to wider attention over a few election cycles, with the goal of ultimately "out-organizing the car people"
this is admittedly half-baked
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Friday, 8 March 2024 01:08 (one month ago) link
I love going on public transport, great bunch of lads
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 8 March 2024 10:00 (one month ago) link
The main issue with travelling by bus in London are the constant roadworks.
― man in suit and red tie raising his fist (Tom D.), Friday, 8 March 2024 10:02 (one month ago) link
... and stupid car drivers, of course.
im beginning to think posting is too easy tbh
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Friday, 8 March 2024 10:40 (one month ago) link
Late to the convo but specifically where I lived in a UK city, the bus was regularly easier than a car with a stroller - could just wheel it onto the bus (not at busy times, and sometimes it's a gamble as to whether the two stroller/wheelchair spaces are full) but buses were frequent enough that not bothering with parking, strapping into car seats, dismantling and folding up the stroller was totally worth it.
I bus to work for two main reasons: bus lane that zips through most of the INSANE rush hour queues (drivers hate it because it makes more rush-hour queues for them) and cost of parking near my job. I could apply for a permit but not really worth it. Downside is you need to allow several times over your journey length which is not always possible when you have childcare pickup deadlines, meetings, etc. Also, the bus is currently subsidised so costs me £4 a day but would probably double when this ends. And the biggest downside is the bus between my town and the city only goes one route and stops in the centre. If you need to be far from that route your bus issues double so that is when it becomes not worth it.
There is also a Clean Air Zone charge but would not affect my car - I think people tend to go round rather than public transport.
― kinder, Friday, 8 March 2024 13:34 (one month ago) link
I love going on public transport, great bunch of lads― Daniel_Rf
― Daniel_Rf
this to me is the biggest challenge with public transport... i live in a city with a fantastic public transportation system. it's less convenient than driving, particularly in a culture built around everything happening at a _precise specific time_. the buses often don't run on time. i'm privileged to _not_ have every second of my time monitored, but when i was younger, when i wasn't working the "professional" job i do now, i was monitored that way... what's important to a lot of people is _perfect attendance_, being where you're supposed to be when you're supposed to be there, even if there's no particular need for it. that kind of thing was a lot easier when i had a car.
the bigger issue is that you do regularly run into... i don't know what the proper word is for it. like i'm not wanting to stigmatize anybody for being mentally ill - i'm chronically and seriously mentally ill myself. people whose behavior is scary. yes, i'm a middle-aged white woman, and that definitely colors my responses, but to be clear "scary" isn't code for "black". the people who behave this way are nearly always white. if you're white you're pretty unlikely to get shot for behaving that way. a couple of weeks ago it was someone ranting about how he was being farmed for meat. when that's people's experience with public transport, yeah, people are going to avoid riding public transport. i don't have a solution, but that's probably an uncool conservative belief. it's totally understandable that people would avoid public transport because they feel uncomfortable around people loudly saying scary things.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 8 March 2024 14:28 (one month ago) link
so many liminal exurbs would have to be razed to the ground to make a car ban work. Let’s do it!!!
― brimstead, Friday, 8 March 2024 16:21 (one month ago) link
you know, we could start with Manhattan, and extend to much of Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens
xp aaaaand we're back on track! i think "there but for the grace of god", that could be me in 10 years. but so far i have only yelled scary shit at home
― A street taco cart named Des'ree (Deflatormouse), Friday, 8 March 2024 17:32 (one month ago) link
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Thursday, March 7, 2024 7:13 PM (four days ago) bookmarkflaglink
I fundamentally disagree with this. Making driving harder does not cause viable transit options to appear, and banning cars outright is significantly politically harder to achieve than building better transit options. Make transit attractive. Going back to Berlin again, not that I tried it with kids, but the transit and bike options were both so pleasant and enjoyable that just taking trams and trains around the city was a good experience for its own sake. The NYC subway by contrast is fucking unpleasant. Don't pretend that's just some kind of privilege thing, you know it is, everyone knows it is. I'm not saying it's the worst thing - I relied on it for many, many years. Cities all over the world have more pleasant and humane transit systems, even some US cities (the DC metro, e.g.).
Even in my suburb, virtually everyone who works in the city commutes by train (NB: I don't work in the city anymore, I work 20 minutes from my house in another suburb). The only reason to drive into the city is when you're going somewhere that takes way longer by train than it does by car (e.g. Brooklyn). Making driving from here harder is not going to rectify anything, it's just going to mean people making fewer discretionary trips into the city, which I don't really think is the goal, and is in fact bad for the city.
It really sounds like some of you just resent cars and car owners and want to punish them, and that is not really effective policy.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 11 March 2024 20:34 (one month ago) link
I guess to qualify that, yes, the solution may "involve" making driving harder, but that should be as a byproduct, not as the focus in itself. E.g. enact congestion pricing for the express purpose of funding a specific transit project and tell the public that.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 11 March 2024 20:35 (one month ago) link
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 11 March 2024 21:03 (one month ago) link
besides the thread being one of about four threads where it should be frowned upon for that kind of nonsense posing one-upmanship, its p obvious just a gang of ppl cranky because they cant drive
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 11 March 2024 21:06 (one month ago) link
I don’t think “people drive too much” is as much of an issue in larger cities that have at least some level of public transport as it is in the sprawl in much of the country. Smog and pedestrian safety? Yeah, big issues! A complete inability to do anything at all without a car, though? Broad swaths of the country. These are places where the city might have some public transportation that has occasional branch routes into the suburb giving you a bus twice a dayBut having visited the newer IMAX theater in a suburb near me (well, 10 miles away) I was struck by the fact this new construction area was 90% streets and parking lots and… nothing. I guess there might be some landscaping at some point but it’s a bank, a car wash, a strip mall, repeated on and on. You could duck over a couple blocks at some points and end up in a housing development or area of apartment buildings, but with those we’re talking at least one parking lot spot per unit. And all of the roads are sized for the time of day when they’ll be the most congested so they’re insanely wide
― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Monday, 11 March 2024 21:19 (one month ago) link
I hold up my hand up I absolutely resent cars and car owners and any scheme to push them out of where I live in gets my full blessing.
― man in suit and red tie raising his fist (Tom D.), Monday, 11 March 2024 21:20 (one month ago) link
send them here! there’s all the driving you’d ever want!
― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Monday, 11 March 2024 21:21 (one month ago) link
man alive, who was pretending you were wrong about the NYC subway's issues? I agreed with you, and pointed out that they were all solvable.... with money that is currently being spent making driving artificially easy, to the detriment of the entire planet. we should stop doing that. this will, inevitably, make driving harder. it is way way easier than it can plausibly be in any sustainable version of the future. something's gotta give.
― not the one who's tryin' to dub your anime (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 12 March 2024 00:06 (one month ago) link
money is spent making everything artificially easy, to the detriment of the planet
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 March 2024 00:15 (one month ago) link
fuckin hospitals man dont get me started
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 March 2024 00:16 (one month ago) link
Sneaky Drivers Dodging Toll Cameras Cost Authorities Millions
― visiting, Tuesday, 12 March 2024 01:12 (one month ago) link
I do, anyway.
― G. D’Arcy Cheesewright (silby), Saturday, 16 March 2024 22:43 (one month ago) link
silby
you havent seen mine!
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Saturday, 16 March 2024 22:46 (one month ago) link
I think this has been posted here several times already, but I think there's almost certainly too much easy access to hardcore porn now, especially that kids can find, and I don't think saying this this makes me a SWERF.
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 16 March 2024 23:40 (one month ago) link
Agreed. I saw an open tab for hard-core porn on a 10yo students ipad. No one wants that.
― H.P, Sunday, 17 March 2024 01:00 (one month ago) link
Opened tab? Closed tab? Unopened tab? You know what I mean, one at the top of the browser that wasn't currently clicked on
― H.P, Sunday, 17 March 2024 01:02 (one month ago) link
I think this has been posted here several times already, but I think there's almost certainly too much easy access to hardcore porn now, especially that kids can find, and I don't think saying this this makes me a SWERF.― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length)
― This is Dance Anthems, have some respect (Camaraderie at Arms Length)
Not inherently! I guess the question is how one puts that into practice. Because the ways it gets put into practice, like COPPA, _do_ disproportionately negatively affect SWs. And that's something that... I genuinely do believe it's well-intentioned. I don't think COPPA is "conservative" even! It's a liberal law promoted and passed by liberals. Supporting sex workers isn't really a liberal idea, I don't think. It's one of the places where the difference between liberalism and leftism becomes clearest. Liberals see people who make their living doing force fem ASMR and say "God, that's awful, we need to help that person get a decent productive job working for a national defense contractor."
For me, it's not a matter of _access_ to porn, it's a matter of porn _quality_. Frankly the financial incentives when it comes to pornography are perverse. I don't mean that as a pun. I'm literally just trying to talk about this from an economic perspective here. The problem here, to my mind, is that by and large when it comes to _what sorts_ of porn are out there, we've let the market decide. When you do that, you see the same thing that nearly always happens. The biases of the people who are _currently_ in power are perpetuated. The rich don't just grow richer - they shape the environment so as to self-select for people who _share_ their values.
I've seen the sorts of porn that get circulated on the Internet, and I do think that porn is a reflection of the values of the ruling elites. Now, I'm not saying that those values are bad in and of themselves. Lots of people _do_ find a lot of value in pornography that perpetuates "traditional" social values, such as porn featuring a dominant man and a submissive woman.
The challenge is for me is that pornography is often seen as being _qualitatively different_ from other forms of entertainment media by dint of the subject matter it portrays. I honestly don't see pornography that way at all. ContraPoints did this really fascinating video about the Twilight series that addresses really strongly the idea of Twilight as a sexual fantasy, the way in which it gave rise to 50 Shades of Gray. I haven't read 50 Shades of Gray. I've heard lots of people in the kink scene talk shit about it. All I know about it is that the author was really into Thomas Tallis's "Spem in Alium". To me, personally, this points to the positive social value of what I'm just going to generalize as "smut". Because I don't think there's value in making this hard and fast distinction. One can gain a great deal of _positive social value_ from work that appeals to the _prurient interest_.
So to me the question isn't one of "porn" itself, but _what sorts of material_ we are defining as "hardcore porn" that's accessible to children.
I guess I'm just gonna really get into this here, talk about my early experiences here.
When I was a kid - this was before the Internet - my best friend said hey, come on over to my place, I got this porn tape. So I did, out of idle curiosity more than anything else. His mom was off at work. Some conservatives would say that's the problem, that his mom should have been at home taking care of him instead of leaving him alone to watch hardcore porn. His parents got divorced because his dad was mentally ill and abusive. I am not sure that my best friend would have been better served by having been raised in a traditional two-parent abusive household. I can deep dive several more levels on this. One could draw all sorts of conclusions, make all sorts of speculations. I later learned that this friend sexually assaulted my youngest sibling, who was eight years younger than both of us. I don't personally think this had anything to do with his watching a porn video with me when we were 12 or so. From what I know, which isn't a lot but which is more than I'd like, sexual assault is a learned behavior. Minors who commit sexual assault often experienced sexual assault themselves, and from that experience got the idea that sexual assault was normal. I don't know whether or not my friend was sexually assaulted or not. I don't personally care if he was or not. I am angry at him and I hate him for what he did to my sibling. Whether it's because he was sexually assaulted or because of that porn movie we watched or any number of other reasons, that doesn't fucking matter to me. On a personal level, what matters is what he did.
And what matters is that I didn't know about this for 30 years, because when my youngest sibling tried to talk about this, nobody believed him. Oh, no, not _him_. He was a Good Boy. He wouldn't do Something Like That.
My dad was a _huge_ porn hound. He just had tremendous amounts of it. Never was able to use a computer, because every time he got one he'd fill it with malware from clicking every porn link on the Internet. He did better with adult bookstores. He worked hard to be discreet about it, though. We knew he watched porn, but we never saw him watching it. Never saw _what_ he was watching. He'd take us out to buy comic books and he'd go next door while we were looking at "Crisis on Infinite Earths" crossover stories and he'd come back with a package in a plain brown wrapper. He didn't pretend he didn't have a tremendous appetite for porn, but he was discreet about it.
Our mom was less discreet about it. After they got divorced, she would take out the catalogs he got in the mail and show them to us and make fun of the "sick shit" my dad was into.
I don't remember what was actually in those catalogs. I know they were from a place called Spartacus. Until I moved here to PDX, I didn't realize that Spartacus was local to here. It surprised me to learn that. We grew up on the East Coast. As far as I know, my dad has never even _been_ to Porland. Spartacus is still around. I'm not really entirely sure what kind of stuff they do. I think it's kink, generally? She Bop, the local female friendly sex boutique, has a lot of their stuff. I've seen local kink folks kind of look down on their stuff in the same way they do _50 Shades of Grey_. Honestly kinksters can be kind of snobby sometimes.
Like I said, I don't remember what exactly is in the catalog. When I last talked to my oldest brother, he said that he thought our mom showing him that catalogue was sexual abuse, that it fucked him up. Me? Shit, I don't know. It's not that simple.
A lot of the kink stuff is force fem. My understanding is that Spartacus does some of the kind of stuff. I guess probably some of that kind of stuff was in the catalog. I can't remember. I can't remember at all what was in that catalog. Do I personally think seeing that catalog _made_ me trans, that it _made_ me someone who liked kink? No, I don't. All of this stuff about, like, queer propaganda, about promoting these unhealthy lifestyles... you'll hear other queer people talk about it sometimes. We're fucking _surrounded_ by straight propaganda. Everywhere. In all forms. Like Garfield says, I'm not _immune_ to propaganda, but the straight media narratives, the straight porn, the complete and total insistence from all sides that the _only acceptable form_ of desire was cishet desire... none of it managed to turn me straight.
Did the stuff I saw fuck me up, though? Did it fuck me up when I tried to figure out stuff about my gender and all I found was people talking about their sissy fetishes? Yes. Yes, it did. Tranny porn is fucked up. It's completely fucked up. It's made for the benefit of people who want to objectify and fetishize trans people ... in a way that _affirms their own identity as cisgender, heterosexual men_. That's the thing that's fucked up about it. It's not the objectification or the fetishization. It's the _distortion_, it's the way there's this unwillingness to deal with the reality of attraction, the reality of desire. That, to me, that's the crux of it. It's not that it's explicit. It's not about "corrupting the minds of the youth". It's about...
I don't know how to explain this exactly, but to me, the essence of porn, the essence of what I find _evil_ about porn, is Bernini's sculpture "The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa". I know it's not normally seen as "pornographic", and this, I think, is kind of central to what I find evil about it. Bernini sculpts a woman in the throes of lust, and then claims it in the name of something which hates women, which hates lust. That disgusts me. That is odious to me. This, to me, is The Lie, the one Peter Hammill sings about in "The Lie (Bernini's St. Theresa)". I hate the lie, whether it's tranny porn or Sunday Mass. I hate both manifestations equally.
I don't know if that's conservative or what.
― Kate (rushomancy), Sunday, 17 March 2024 01:46 (one month ago) link
I guess to qualify that, yes, the solution may "involve" making driving harder, but that should be as a byproduct, not as the focus in itself. E.g. enact congestion pricing for the express purpose of funding a specific transit project and tell the public that.― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, March 11, 2024 4:35 PM (five days ago) bookmarkflaglink
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, March 11, 2024 4:35 PM (five days ago) bookmarkflaglink
because of the congestion externality (each additional driver adds to traffic making everyone else's commute slower) it's actually good to have congestion pricing even if you don't use the money to built public transit, even if you don't value spiting drivers. similar to how a carbon tax is good even if you rebate it rather than spend the money on green infrastructure
― flopson, Sunday, 17 March 2024 03:27 (one month ago) link