long-time reader first-time bread-maker

(actually i made CINNAMON BUNS from the MOOMINS COOKBOOK a few years back, they were ok)

assume i have never made bread before, what is a good type of loaf place to start with -- needn't be basic!! what will i have most fun with and learn most from first time out??!!

(since basic is anyway sometimes not the easiest thing! cf delia on boiling an egg)

this is what i currently have to hand:
plain flour
wholemeal flour
cornflour
ground almonds

quick yeast (bought this week)
dried active yeast (in an unopened tin 4 yrs past sell-by)
some turkish packet yeast (aka MAYA, with a picture of croissants on the cover)

normal sugar
icing sugar
dark brown sugar

eggs
butter
milk

baking powder
bicarb
salt, pepper etc
herbs and spices, many and varied

on the advice of pals elsewhere i went with VEGAN SODA BREAD, using water and lemon juice instead of buttermilk

for best-practice euphony the thread shd really say "baker" not "bread-maker" but i can and do make cakes fairly often so

I've only ever used ground almonds as a substitute for breadcrumbs when I was baking chicken. What are you using them for? I want to make some whiskey bread but haven't found a good recipe yet.

do you have pics?

still in the over, i will post when it comes out

the almonds are left over from a time when i was trying to reproduce my gran's gorgeous near-liquid pain de genes via experimental methods and no recipe (my aunt refuses to pass it on for some reason) (falling out with my gran possibly) -- i put them in this list in case anyone had any ideas given the unplanned ingredients i had to hand!

in the oven i mean, ten mins to go

https://66.media.tumblr.com/6991a246b335a6a4725e59b3e564dc8f/8bec5b7ee190d696-1a/s500x750/0f76aced22ce90d01d6813cb9edb8c5169cece6b.jpg

being dumm i fvcked up the base and had to slice it off the grill it was baked on (not this one)

(it had oozed thru the bars like T2 and got stuck to itself -- i guess i shd have just used a flat baking tray lol)

taste is ok tho, hint of rosemary, needs a little more salt

look at that fat babby.

would you use that recipe again? if so post here.

sure why not, it's super-simple (no buttermilk bcz i had none, used lemon juice as the acid, see below)

things i have to get better at before my next attempt:

1: handling the raw dough (viz moving it from the shaping surface to the baking surface without totally messing up the shape)
2: using a non-dumm baking surface lol
3: not getting flour everywhere (i will never learn this)

but basically i am pleased with it, it is very eatable! i shd try and make some soup to go with it before i eat it all

RECIPE for SODA BREAD (water not buttermilk)

4 cups flour
1 tbsp sugar
1 tsp bicarbonate soda
1/2 tsp salt -- i think use more next time!!
1 1/2 cups water
2tsp lemon juice
I tbsp chopped rosemary (fresh)

Sieve the dry ingredients. Make a well in the centre. Pour in all of the water & vinegar. Using one hand stir in a full circular movement from the centre to the outside of the bowl in ever-increasing circles. Add rosemary. The dough should be softish, not too wet & sticky.

When it all comes together turn out onto a well-floured surface. Tidy it up and flip over gently. Pat the dough into a round about 4cm (1 1/2 in) deep.

Cut a deep cross on the loaf and prick in the four corners (lol it’s a round it has no corners). Bake in the (pre-heated) oven for 15 minutes at 250 oC, then turn down to 200 oC for 30 minutes until cooked. Tap the bottom of the bread: when it is cooked it will sound hollow. Cool on a wire rack.

although i enjoy cooking my bread baking has always been a bit of a failure starting with a loaf of quasar-like density one sice of which would both render you immobile and nourish you for days.

i will be following developments with a keen interest.

i am thinking about making this but somehow adding whiskey as the flavor.

instead of the water maybe

Using mark’s ingredients and yerac’s inspiration I found a recipe for Bourbon cornbread. Although regular cornbread would be a great thing to make as well.

Also my go to bread not bread thing is farinata. It’s a savory thick pancake made with chickpea (gram, besam) flour, olive oil salt and water.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/14/chickpea-flour-recipes-yotam-ottolenghi

Conveniently, yeast seems hard to come by at the moment where I am, and in fact hard to come by on Amazon.

The sourdough starter recipes I've seen recommend starting with rye flour, which I do not have on hand.

I do have a single packet of rapid rise yeast.

The question is, can I use this to grow more?

I can find something that says "no" but I cannot find something that says "yes".

no but you can make sourdough starter from all-purpose flour. it's a different kind of yeast that you would buy. i happened to buy a big package of SAF instant yeast at the middle eastern food store in january, places like that would likely have it.

lol did you read this? i'm curious https://www.wikihow.com/Grow-Yeast

oh it's for brewer's yeast...i'm at a loss

Also my go to bread not bread thing is farinata. It’s a savory thick pancake made with chickpea (gram, besam) flour, olive oil salt and water.

That sounds good. Does it get/need a sauce? reminds me of the panisses i made a few times when i had chickpea flour on hand that needed using. they were really good, and pretty simple. not strictly bread though, sorry if derailing

xxpost

this is a safe space for bread nerds and noobs alike, no worry too pernickety, no question too dumb :)

It’s a lot like panise. It goes with lots of things, some veggies or a salad on top is good. However I just normally have it with olive oil salt and black pepper. It was a staple of pizza shops when I lived in Turin and that’s all they ate it with there.

you can make a starter with any kind of flour but it’s true that rye is a bit more supercharged. start with equal parts flour and warm water, maybe 50g of each, stir up (with your hands), leave in a warm place, the next day ditch half of it and add a bit more flour and warm water in equal parts and keep going like this. after about 5 days you’ll have something that bubbles and rises. you might want to use water that you’ve allowed to sit for an hour, so that it doesn’t have as much chlorine in it.

i got rye flour to make the last starter i failed at. i got too excited that it was actually working, didn't stir it enough, and it got some mold on it. i will start another one today.

the starter recipe i used said to also add pineapple juice. would something like that help the AP flour starter? tracer?

i wouldn’t.

if it gets mold on it you can carefully scoop the mold off and what’s underneath ought to be fine. personally i take my starter out of its container at least once every couple of weeks and wash the container well so that mold doesn’t get a foothold.

xp

Hi relatively new sourdough baker here (gave up drinking, started baking!)

aiui the pineapple juice technique may well be good for AP flour. The book I'm learning from (Super Sourdough by the nice Scottish doctor guy from Bake-Off*) says that he's found it can make the difference with cheap white flour - that the acid kills off the bugs you don't want growing in there. iirc it can be any fruit juice or something similarly acid. And switch to water after first feed.

*I've never actually watched bake-off but he comes over well in this book. Good hand-holding, and goes into the why of things, which I like.

interesting! why not?

never heard of this before, but interesting read
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1

I've noticed a concerted uptick in people interested in sourdough all of a sudden, my wife has been giving out starter & advice. Although acquiring the equipment can be an initial hurdle.

what equipment? i use couple of bowls..

i was trundling along quite happily without it, because i was a bit indifferent to any that i'd had. then i found a local bakery that did *amazing* sourdough. the best. so i reluctantly paid *money* for it each week. then it shut down at christmas, and i haven't been able to find any that matches it since – hedone bakery in chiswick closest, but i ain't going anywhere near there these days because i'm isolating on the other side of london. i'm watching people's sourdough experiments to see whether i should do it, but it seems like x5 more pita than just a regular loaf, which i also can't do. i may try and get better at this over the coming period. xpost.

Scottish doctor guy from Bake-Off*) says that he's found it can make the difference with cheap white flour - that the acid kills off the bugs you don't want growing in there. iirc it can be any fruit juice or something similarly acid. And switch to water after first feed.

This makes a lot of sense all of the sake brewing methods I know start by making or using acid to protect the yeast from undesirable bacteria. Citric acid or lactic acid are used so it makes sense that something acidic like pineapple juice would work well. Plus all the sugar probably helps get the yeast going.

ah i forgot - a scale. you do want a scale that can measure grams.

Scale, Dutch oven, banneton baskets, proofing situation? That's just what my partner uses, probably only the scale is necessary.

She just made some loaves and I can see it on the counter from where I'm working.

I don't know how to invite people to slack. Does this work. Post your breads to this since it's much easier to post images. https://join.slack.com/t/poxyfule/shared_invite/zt-csm19k0n-P_w0mauC3_sXUXus~TI0mw deems started a cooking channel but I think you have to expand to see it and join. Called.: What do you cook like.

you successfully invited people to slack

I am partying in the streets.

Jordan yes okay i have that stuff too :)

but it’s absolutely not a requirement!

- you can proof a boule in a colander lined with a floured tea towel.

- dutch ovens are great but you can bake freestanding loaves. that way you can bake more loaves at a time. only difference is you need a tray of boiling water at bottom of the oven for the first 25 minutes to create steam.

but yes a scale is a hard requirement for sure.

Metal dough-scraper has been my favourite non-essential.

Had a large delivery of flour today, so all set to bake through the dark times.

Going to move away from sourdough and try a basic soda bread tomorrow.

yes a dough scraper can be quite handy. I have used a cake knife in a pinch.

First time breadmaker trying Jim Lahey's No-Knead bread. I expected many things to go wrong. I did not expect that when I took the preheated pot out of the oven and lifted the lid off, a blob of smelly melted plastic bowl would be at the bottom :(

oh god no :(

yes don't eat that

Bread turned out fine(*) in a normal saucepan, not sure if the le creuset can be saved :(

(*) considering I couldn't find the white bread flour and was making the dough with wholemeal till my wife came down and said that was a terrible idea, found the white flour, and made me double the recipe for two 50/50 loaves. like i said, first time breadmaker.

Also we have (hopefully) learned to store ovenware with the lids on upside down.

the ceramic coating is not porous so you may be able to save it. eeeeeek

Any focaccia recipes to recommend? Something to do with 00 flour other than pizza dough?

Soon I will be a first-in-a-long-time bread baker. Is that no-knead a good way to go or should I try something else. I may or may not have a KitchenAid mixer. It was acting a bit weird last I used it oh three or four years ago.

we are anxiously making our own sourdough starter. the first attempt died on day 4-ish, so this round we're being really by-the-book and worrying more than is probably necessary.

Yeah I'm gonna start with yeast, not sourdough starter. I don't need that heartbreak, I already have plants.

Is that no-knead a good way to go or should I try something else

It takes a long time (two proves of 12-18 and 1-2 hours each) but otherwise it ain't lying, just a minute or so of mixing necessary, no need for a mixer.

https://www.nigella.com/recipes/guests/jim-laheys-basic-no-knead-bread

Kneading is the best part. Highly therapeutic.

just don't knead too hard if you're making sourdough! needs to stay supple. keep those gluten strands strong, rather than mashed.

Any focaccia recipes to recommend?

if you like i can dig out my olde Green's cookbook that has a tried and true recipe i haven't made in years.

If you have the time and inclination, I’d love that!

shite. can't find the book. was certain it'd be where my other cookbooks are. may still be packed away or may have purged it (doubtful) when i moved a couple years ago. so sorry!

i'm gonna make this today though on account of you making me want focaccia, and me needing a little project:

https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/focaccia-with-olives-and-rosemary-322

We did this, it turned out much better than an other italian baking cookbook recipe we also tried. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RQOhAeNAjKc

Oh wtf just embed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQOhAeNAjKc

I really like the Tartine Country White recipe for sourdough, but it can take a few tries to get it right and also takes a long time with all of the proofs. Not much kneading required though.

Those starting a starter should use distilled or spring water to feed the starter until it really get going. This avoids the chlorine in tap water that can inhibit early yeast growth.

i admire how this thread hurtled up out of my league so quickly

maybe i will make a starter at the weekend or something

I’ve done a lot from the river cottage bread book so I’d reckon their focaccia recipe would work welL

https://www.rivercottage.net/recipes/focaccia

i made rosemary garlic rolls with my dinner. i made bread! (ralph wiggum voice)

today i am making EASY PLAIN-FLOUR LOAF using this as my fast-action dried yeast:

https://i.imgur.com/AlEEJa8.jpg

(it does say instant dry yeast in little letters so nothing can go wrong in this non-turkish-speaking household)

my v supportive pal P has texted me to say "remember yr making BREAD not ROCK CAKES" in ref the picture up thread, along with multiple laughing-crying emojis so im stoked for this tbh

A good baking week. Big delivery of Shipton Mill flour finally came (ordered on the cusp of the crisis after a couple of weeks umming and ahhing about whether I would ever that much flour), inc 25kg of their basic white (number 4).
Couple of soda bread loaves for instant gratification earlier in the week, then a bit more time on a basic sourdough boule yesterday. I've been going at that one over and over; getting there. New flour good, timed and controlled the proofing better and getting better at the slap-and-fold knead after watching Richard Bertinet videos. Bit more confident handling dough.

ok now double in size you blobby pos

Coincidentally i also wound up with some Shipton No. 4, after biking to E5 bakehouse. Only 3kg for me though!

mark are you keeping it warm? 20C probably not enough - you want it more like 25 or so

you mean the dough when it's proving?

it's in the oven now and my main issue rn is it's not really browning very much

giving it a final 3-min blast at a higher temp to de-pale-ify it a bit then it's out (it smells good)

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/TV20059EW-F010Z8QA1NC/2020-03-28_16.45.51.jpg

terrible photo of pleasing subject

i was using plain flour not strong flour (much more kneading required) plus also the instructions for the turkish yeast are in turkish (i imagine they are standard but who knows). but it's recognisably what it purports to be (visually and tastewise) so yeah

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/TV20059EW-F010P8G6BPB/2020-03-28_17.13.24-2.jpg

it's p dense so probably could have risen a bit more -- will follow tracer's advice next time re ambient temp (cold brisk late winter's day in hackney today)

yeah when proving it should be warm. also you’ll get a better rise and less dense loaf if you use bread flour i.e. higher protein, at least 11%

but that looks great! next time you can try cranking your oven as hot as it will go for an hour before putting it in. then after 20 minutes on full temp you can lower to about 230C for another 30-ish. you’ll get that colour you want :)

wait this is an hour pre-bake consisting of 20 mins plus 30 mins ?

(i don't have any strong flour current so the experiment was "what happens if you use plain flour and knead twice as long" as per a recipe i found online)

this is a safe space for bread nerds and noobs alike, no worry too pernickety, no question too dumb :)

― mark s, Sunday, 22 March 2020 12:09 (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

What are some other good ideas for proofing dough at home (keeping it at ~80-90 F / ~26-32 C while also staying humid)?

Can you do it in a slow cooker on low, with a cup of water next to the dough?

Can you do it on a low stovetop burner somehow?

mark:

pre-heat oven on max for an hour
put in dough
lower to 230C after about 20 minutes and bake for about 30 minutes more

ah interesting: that's less heat *and* less time than my recipe said -- except i think it did originally say something closer to yours but various punters reported overbaking and even burning so they reduced both

well adjust if you need to - everybody’s ovens are slightly different! but that ought to be pretty close to what you want

ok i have a question abt fan ovens then: do i change the numbers when the fan is on (i always put the fan on bcz why wouldn't i)

don’t put on the fan - the fan will extract all the nice moisture that helps the bread push upwards in that first 20 minutes

in fact, slightly next-level is to put a pan of boiling water in bottom of your oven for that first 20 minutes to maximise steam situation. take out out when you reduce the heat.

blimey these are the tippiest tips :)

I've struggled with proofing, but 2 methods I've tried lately -
Oven off (or just 2-3 minutes of warm-up to take the chill off), then a pan of boiling water sitting in the bottom with your dough on a shelf above it. (this made black flakes fall from the top of my oven, so that was shameful and I stopped trying it after the first go).
Boil water, and put the water in a normal saucepan with lid upside-down on top. Put your bowl/banneton of dough on the lid. Cover the dough. Refresh water if it needs more time/heat. This seems to work for me.

those sound like good tricks. above the fridge is usually a warm spot too. or you could go the other way and prove overnight in the fridge, in a plastic bag, works v well for me.

Yeasted breads prove quicker and at a lower temp though - i am less familz with them. from what i understand the yeast is more powerful so the fermentation goes quicker. hence the whole “punching it back” thing - ya gotta tame it!

ok this is a level of lore way over my head

If you want to make panettone you have to let it rise then punch it back 4 times in 24 hrs.

what if i dont though

then the yeasty beast is too unleashed

Tartine country white from sourdough starter.

http://imgur.com/gallery/e0YFyXv

Beautiful!

(update on loaf 2: it stales p quickly but was good fired for breakfast on day three and toast with soup for supper)

(loaf 3: saturday if i am spared)

We made a gargantuan boule of no-knead sourdough following the King Arthur recipe and it’s GREBT

I’d post pictures but it’s half eaten already. Can’t wait to make some open faced cheese sandwiches with it. 24 hour first rise and dutch oven is definitely the way to go. And kosher salt is better than sea salt imo.

Save y’all the googlin

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/no-knead-sourdough-bread-recipe

Makes a big one. We’re halving the recipe next time.

I think I've had good flavour and low strength - ie tends to go a bit pancakey - when i've tried a long proof. Probably needed more stretch & fold. Definitely game for trying again.

busy and a little low on starter so I tried my first yeasted bread, a nice simple white loaf. Just a completely different game - the dough behaves itself quickly, and the fucker swells fast.

I'm starting this BA focaccia today: https://www.bonappetit.com/recipe/easy-no-knead-focaccia

the first three recipes i googled for making a wholemeal loaf mention a loaf tin but obviously i can do it without a tin

(can't i)

hmmmmm it may be quite.... low and flat. the nice thing about a tin is that no matter what happens it’ll have a nice shape. you could use a round cake tin maybe?

i do have cake tins yes, but no way of working out what the volume equivalent is

(i realised* my wholemeal flour is in fact strong)
*(by reading the outside of the packaging)

opinions vary on the loaf-tins, acc.to the platform i quiz abt it

Well you can definitely try a free-standing loaf. You might try reducing the water a few percent to get a stronger, stiffer loaf that won’t go flat in the oven. (Though it might be fine anyway)

Definitely don’t succumb to the temptation of adding flour in the last stages of shaping your loaf, either because you have sticky hands, or because you want it stiffer, or what have you. Any flour you add after your various stages of rising etc will be UNFERMENTED and won’t taste good and will interfere with the action of the rest of the dough. Nothing wrong with a little dusting flour on your work surface or your hands when you’re shaping your loaf at the end, but don’t try to genuinely incorporate more flour at that stage.

so is part of the science here that a wholemeal loaf actually needs the heat to closer to the middle, via reduced distance (width is less) and also via conduction?

closer i.e. than a free-standing would-be spherical loaf (like the second one i made = a plain four loaf)

hmm I don’t know. I don’t think it matters. You want a really hot oven when you put it in, and reduce a bit after 20 minutes, regardless of what kind of loaf you’re making.

Freestanding, but shape it as a batard rather than a boule?

ALAB series

i will never not cross the streams

ok it is somehow the afternoon I am going to bake something instead of watching bakewithjack videos.

using woof's pan of boiling water method, my pos blob of wholemeal dough is rising like a mfer: punching down begins in two mins

i am making 2 x wholemeal baguettes from a recipe which used US cups = the worst of all measures

agreed

be gentle with the punching my friend

ok so here's what i don't really get: what does punching do when if i'm shortly required to re-knead that the second knead doesn't do

Nothing, probably - you’re right

ok these guys have browned nicely on top and sound hollow to the tap from above

BUT one of them had to be pried off the baking tray and both bases are worryingly soft (i have flipped them over and given them a last little blast)

caught a little on top thx to final blast but the base is now as i hope so

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/TV20059EW-F0113ULDAQJ/2020-04-04_18.33.35-2.jpg

woof i think i need an account in that 'workspace' to see that. i don't know who the administrator is.

Yes you do

Aha!

I've been charged with folding the sourdough today, as part of my working from home responsibilities.

Did that yesterday.

my nice downstairs neighbours sourced me some strong flour :)

what is a good recipe for starter if you have no yoghurt (i have no yoghurt)

No need for yoghurt at all - just water and flour.
I followed this one blindly at the start of the year, never having baked before:
https://www.theboywhobakes.co.uk/recipes/2019/5/30/how-to-make-a-sourdough-starter

the boy who bakes is us

(can include girls)

that looks like it would work. i have found it a bit easier to get going with rye. (you can still make white and whole wheat loaves with a rye starter.)

The dough is very fluffy! We're going to do half for bread and half for pizza.

second edition of the no knead sourdough (we made half the recipe this time since the last one turned out so gigantic (and flour is hard to find)) is going in the oven shortly

I should have kept a some of Gilberto* last time he came to stay.

*Gilberto is a sourdough starter I look after when my Brazilian friends go on holiday. He is descended from the starter at French restaurant that sadly closed last year.

this made me wonder how old the oldest starter is and of course it's a thing and there are rival claimants and it's possibly 122 years (if this isn't fake)

according to my e5 bread sensei, after about 5 years it doesn't really matter how old it is on a practical level

former ilxor redacted trumped my google fu by finding someone who had made a starter found in an egyptian tomb

i mean with yeast spores found in an egyptian tomb

sarcophagus_juice.jpg

i bet you could make some good WRAPS with that.

request for a hot cross bun recipe accessible to the noob

lol now i have two, direct from two top bakers = mr p.hollywood & mr t.hand

naturally mr hand's is the more advanced, it requires i make BUTTERMILK (but i found out how with a lemon so that's OK)

do any of you bread people know the trick to making sourdough that's actually sour? i've had decent success at making levain bread with no yeast but it never has much of that strong tangy sourdough flavor. looking at recipes online for san francisco sourdough, it appears the trick is either a) using a san francisco sourdough starter bc that has special bacteria in it or b) doing a very long fridge proof/ferment. i've done overnight fridge proofs before and not had that result.

you can fridge a 65% hydration levain for 24 hrs. more acetic acid because of more struggle. then proceed as normal (and do a fridge proof too).

does it make a difference if my starter is already refrigerated? the starter itself smells/tastes very sour

no not really. if it’s very sour smelling that just means it needs to be fed sometime soon.

My last bread was bordering on /too/ sour. My advice is to use a refrigerated starter that’s slightly past its prime (~ week since last feed) a long, slow 24 hour bulk ferment and a 12 hour slow second rise in the fridge (finished on the counter).

lol this is all totally over my head, i love it

"the struggle"

lol that actually came from a note i wrote on the recipe given to me during my e5 'advanced sourdough' class. note was next to the instrux for a cold 24-hr levain build and said in total: 'MORE ACETIC ACID = MORE STRUGGLE'

the struggle is real

my boyfriend found yeast, in for a wild ride

I would love to go back to a world where people who never bake never bake, so I can get some whole wheat flour.

you’ll NEVER BAKE
NEVER BAKE
NEVER BAKE
NEVER BAKE......

this hearty scone

Lol

making HCBs mainly via the recipe tracer went me (no fruit, no nuts, will NOT be using frosting for the cross ffs). is the dough rising? NOT MUCH imo (tho the room is warm and draft-free) but i guess i still have another 45 mins until punch-down, more soon

(i halved all* the amounts bcz 30 buns is a lot when you live alone)

*probably all, maybe

tbh i may have over-kneaded when absorbing the butter "the french way" since i forgot to leave it out and it was cold not soft

lol i absolutely fvcked up the "french way of butter", when i was dividing and shaping them just now i found a huge unabsorbed soft glob of it in the middle of the dough

Sounds delicious! :)

we'll see

Different kind of bread, but I started a batch of injera batter last night.

dough for crosses was too wet and flowed everywhere, shapes are terrible, glaze and colour good tho!

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/TV20059EW-F012CJX6H9N/2020-04-13_17.47.46.jpg

couldn't find any raisins or sultanas when i shopped for these, it does need em really -- but the texture is not bad at all! (this was intricate without being difficult really)

https://files.slack.com/files-tmb/TV20059EW-F01224ZUUPK-27a43b5cd1/2020-04-13_18.07.24_720.jpg

lol awesome plate. those look great!

the laurel's kitchen bread book is quite verbose but usually i think it's helpful - they anticipate the kinds of practical questions you might have and address them right in the recipe, which i feel usually ends up simplifying things rather than complicating them i.e. will i need to do these in batches, what should they look like when i've shaped them, is there something i can use to squash them etc - and most recipes would just say 'form the buns'

yes i mainly stuck with laurel -- but it suggested using icing-frosted crosses instead of authentic white dough strips, so i switched to paul hollywood for them, then couldn't get the snipped-plastic-bag-as-a-piping-device to work (the bags just burst) until i made the cross dough so runny that it wouldn't stay in place

probably i shd have tried the piping out first -- the second batch was a bit better

whoa piping!

They are Turin shroud crosses, very appropriate. Look delicious too.

Icing crosses are all kinds of wrong.

i just baked these tonight:
https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1020985-cheddar-walnut-gougeres

it was.... not hard! no yeast! no starter! no baking powder! just mixin and cookin! and very freaking good

Nice. I might give those a try!

Something to do with 00 flour other than pizza dough?

I'm using red caputo 00 flour to make the tartine country sourdough, as bread flour is nowhere to be found and i was able to buy a 25k bag of it off Amazon somehow, and it is working really well!

On a related note, how are people storing their massive bags of flour, if they have them? Scared of getting bugs in it somehow...

that's what sifting is for surely :)

a big plastic bucket with a snap-on lid would be ideal imo (i do not have one, but i also don't have 25kg of flour!)

those gougeres look amazing. i'm gonna try them as soon as we can get eggs again.

It seemed like an overinvestment when it arrived - I could barely drag the box into the kitchen - but we're making 4-5 loaves a week, plus pizzas and feeding the sourdough starter, and with doling bags of it out to flour-strapped friends, I might get through it a lot quicker than I'd imagined!

Ah, sifting, of course...

My 25kg is in its sack, still in the cardboard box it was delivered in. It's moved from the front room and is now sitting by the fridge. I've been thinking about getting some kind of airtight plastic bucket/box/bin for it - it could probably safely move to our small, damp and crowded cellar if I did - but haven't gone for it yet.

And same, stevie - It's definitely going down faster than I thought - I was guessing about 6 months, maybe a bit less, but I am baking more than anticipated when I was umming and ahhing about buying it.

as we can get eggs again

if you don't sift the flour the eggs will re-enter yr recipes iirc

lol

NOBODY in my family liked the gougeres. mind-boggling. there are like 35 of the fucking things left. i can't give em away because everybody on my street knows i had the 'vid.

Gorge on gougeres.

Whaaaat. I'm going to make those gougeres this weekend.

if there was a way i'd totally take the gougeres off yr hands tracer :)

bah the recipe is behind the nyt firewall: behaviour i am not going to change under lockdown = setting up a fkn account with those ppl

Today - my first crack at baguettes, following King Arthur Flour recipe:
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-baguettes-recipe
Going in the oven in about 30 minutes. Not feeling hugely confident here tbh, but wanted to start on some 55 flour I'd bought(*) and try something to challenge my (very poor) shaping.

(*)You'd think the 25kg would be enough, but it didn't get me free shipping so I bought several small bags of other flours alongside - 55, 00, ciabatta & soda bread flour.

Oh, and following previous chat on here my early-in-the-week loaf was old-ish starter, 2/3 white, 1/3 rye and wholemeal, long fridge proof with a lot of stretch and folds. Held its shape, rose well and was delicious.

YES!! god it's a good feeling when it works out eh?

tbf I think baguette shaping isn't easy! (not that i've tried it myself)

a friend on instagram did a video about making sourdough bread and it turns out he puts his dough in the fridge overnight before cooking it (which I do too) but, get this, he doesn't cover it up, so it develops a skin. And fuck me, it really improves the shape and structure of the bread. TRY IT!

i tried a multiple-day fridge ferment/proof for my most recent sourdough (36ish hours for the poolish, another 12ish hours for the dough) per the recipe for a san francisco-style sourdough i found online. the bread was very good but still not sour at all!

IME the age of the starter has more impact in flavor than the length of the ferment/rise.

Yes. You can also try overproofing it. Though it won't rise as high in the oven. You may not care. You could also overproof in a bread tin and then the shape'll be fine :P

NA, re: sourness, Sarah suggests letting the starter ferment longer in the beginning of the process, or adjusting the ratios in favor of starter (for example add 100g starter compared to what you normally use, and decrease the added flour & water by 100g).

Here are some examples she found :

Norwich Sourdough Bread Recipe – Wild Yeast
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/my-new-favorite-sourdough/

Norwich More-Sourdough – Wild Yeast
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/more-sour-sourdough/

And here's the latest loaf with a lot of flax seed, very hearty & moist:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_DLGQnjSE5/

there is no way you don't get an a+ for that.

Oh I can't take credit, that's all my partner, I just did a little folding.

That is f'n amazing

wow. nice job!

Gorgeous!

I’ve been thinking about stevie’s tip to leave the dough UNCOVERED during proving and i almost did it last night..... and then i chickened out

you cover it bcz why science-wise?

ps i assume professional breadmakers have a thing they can do with the sad little leftover glass of yolk from a separate-the-eggwhite recipe but what abt the the unprofessional breadmaker (me)

gourgeres (eli's recipe) plus a nice glass of lemonade

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/TV20059EW-F012468M76X/2020-04-19_14.28.34.png

bases not really firmed up? what's the tip for this?

that’s okay. they should be pretty light and soft. leave em in a little longer if you want? or reheat for a couple minutes longer than you might otherwise when you next have them?

i popped them back in for a few mins just on that open tray with no baking tray to mask the base

yr family is insane by the way these are delicious, which element do they dislike?

i honestly don’t know. they start to answer and then trail off.

re: covering dough during fermentation/proving: if your dough dries out too much the crust can get too thick and chewy, plus the ratio of flour to water will actually change, meaning a less hydrated loaf, meaning not as tender inside... that said, the whole point of those cane proving baskets is to slightly wick away some of the water from the surface so that the dough doesn’t stick... so i imagine it could totally work as long as you weren’t leaving them uncovered for an ungodly amount of time. plus the fridge is usually pretty damp anyway!

in my E5 class, i remember the baker being extremely blasé about dough temperature during fermentation and whether the dough was covered or not..

lol "when you next have them" = they are nearly all gone!

(i did manage to put a tray of them in the freezer so there will be a next time)

Oh man, thanks everyone, I'll pass on the praise, but you should really see her other loaves!

Re: egg yolk, cook & eat, surely? On toast w/olive oil?

good idea if i had any toast

You're making bread!

so i'm learning the insides of my gougeres shd have been more like eclairs (it's choux pastry) than dense like scones?

anyway they weren't (they were tasty but no way could they be called "puffs") )

I’ve been thinking about stevie’s tip to leave the dough UNCOVERED during proving and i almost did it last night..... and then i chickened out

it worked good but ymmv!!

So, I figured out what to do with all the spent starter instead of throwing it away after feedings. Sourdough crackers.

That is an awesome idea.

They are really easy! I used vegetable shortening instead of butter since I didn't have a ton of the latter. They are great!

I made them! I didn't roll them thin enough but they're still great. So flavourful and tangy. Impossible to stop eating them, basically.

I spoke w/my bread sensei about making sourdough more sour and she says:

'To get a tangier loaf you need to use a more mature leaven and a more well fermented dough. Ferment your leaven until it tastes nice and sour. Also using dark rye in your dough can help it ferment more to get tangier flavours'

Nice, my partner made sourdough crackers with the discard too once. Lately she's only been feeding her starter when she's going to bake, and there hasn't been any discard.

Btw I was watching a Bon Appetit video that specifically mentioned covering the dough to prevent a skin forming + inhibiting gluten structure.

Yeah I don't usually have 250g of 'extra' starter. I actually made a kind of levain in order to have enough!!

Btw I was watching a Bon Appetit video that specifically mentioned covering the dough to prevent a skin forming + inhibiting gluten structure.

yeah a week on and tbh I have had good and bad results with the "uncovered in the fridge" technique

i just want to announce, slightly feebly but also very proudly, that i made two *very simple* but *fantastically successful* tinned yeasted loaves yesterday. that is all.

Awesome :)

I've been making more tinned loaves lately.

i have to decide what to make at the weekend after my mixed success with the gougeres (they tasted nice but they totally didn't rise properly, they were more like very excellent cheese scones)

Latest:

http://imgur.com/gallery/CBYFeEV

Majestic beast!

My wife made pancakes this morning from excess sourdough starter. They were so good: light, fluffy, lots of flavor.

Though maybe that should go in the cooking thread.

i reckon knowing what to do with spare starter is a useful thing to go here.

after my wild success with yeasted tinned wholemeal loaves, i thought i’d do a white bloomer. my shaking and handling was poor throughout and due to some contradictory info from my oven thermometer i think my oven temp was too hot. so it’s almost but not quite burned on the outside, and the base isn’t as solid as i’d like.

quite pleased to have some info to learn from though, and do better next time.

photo link here

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_cqPb7HXZh/?igshid=x1jbqgygei03

*shaping not shaking

That looks pretty good to me.

Me too! How does/did it taste?

Looking good!

Once I've got a jar of discard I use it for pancakes - add an egg, salt, bicarb then milk and flour until it looks like a batter.

Today - rushing a fairly standard boule. Using about 1/3 wholemeal so threw in a bit more water than usual. lol sticky.

oh it tastes great! v pleased.

making a very basic white crusty bread from a BBC recipe which while simple also manages to be annoying and unclear in places: "pat the dough into an oval and roll it up tightly" -- roll it up in which direction? i guessed along the longer axis but

also the phrase "if flavours are your thing" enrages me -- no, no they're not, i aim for full-on flavourlessness and so should you

I’ve been using Kronjast fresh yeast recently, in the absence of anything else, and it is very good. Made a loaf of white / spelt with pekmez and thyme today and it turned out great.

and here it is: interestingly it caught along the split on the top before the base was even non-doughy, so maybe i had it too hot this time? i flipped it on its back for the last ten mins and the base baked properly also

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/TV20059EW-F013BERFP8R/2020-05-03_16.31.30-2.jpg

https://files.slack.com/files-tmb/TV20059EW-F013BERFPB3-f0e3a0d07d/2020-05-03_16.32.28-1_720.jpg

another possible reason: quite a lot of oil ended up in the dough from my kneading hands and the surface and the "lightly oiled" bowl

i used olive oil bcz that's what i had and i know that can burn when you fry?

can’t see the pics for some reason.

it might have been too high in the oven. you want it about midway up.

were you baking in a tin?

i doubt the oil made any difference.

they're linked from slack, sorry, probably only visible if you're signed in

https://i.imgur.com/GEhXikf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0pOxM0X.jpg

they look great! almost burnt on top is very on-trend.

what were they baking ON? a metal tray?

yes, cheap flat metal tray, very slight raised lip

possible it was up too close to the roof of the oven?

or maybe you accidentally had the grill on or something?

oops lol, yes i think i did :D

ffs

i think it looks v good tbh.

i made a second bloomer this week, which i think must have been slightly underproved or poorly shaped because it burst out at the side, and a stone baked “artisan” loaf today which i think may have been underproved because it didn’t burst out at all.

Oh hi there, loving all this bread baking deliciousness.

Today I made cheese and chive bread, and discovered the wonder of using sourdough discard in crackers (similar to the one posted above but more freeform and crazy flavors)

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_5SKB6HYxe/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_4y9gDnRuw/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

(hello to those I know, came back for the Outbreak! thread, staying for the bread)

crackers look great. i’m still at novice yeast stage but was so pleased with this loaf and bread. tbh it’s perfect and toasted v well too.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_5cbsaH3WN/?igshid=yjerih01jdsv

i can't see the pic fizzles

let’s try again. https://www.instagram.com/p/B_5dI_AHU7c/?igshid=o1hzwtrasz51

need to do the split with a razor blade rather than a stanley knife tho, as it’s ragged and too deep. v pleased otherwise.

woah that ear is awesome!

ran out of doves farm brown bread flour last week and picked up a 5kg sack of italian wholemeal from the poncy Haringay Local Shop place on Green Lanes out of desperation. Making my first loaf with it today, and it is incredibly fine, and has none of the pleasing lumps of wheatgerm in it the usual flour has. Preparing to be disappointed...

looking good fizz!!

: )

am interesting to see how stevie's fine italian wholemeal works out.

also interested.

it itersting!

just shaped the loaves and dumped them in the bannetons. First thoughts - dough is still v elastic, moreso than usual. Has been easier to shape the loaves, but will they hold those shapes when time to cook comes? Am using 10% wholemeal flour to 90% white Caputo red 00 (which quickly replaced white bread flour for me when I stopped being able to buy that a month or so ago) so it is very different from how I used to make bread before lockdown (and before I was having to make four or so loaves a week to keep up with family demand).

made sourdough bread for the first time last week and it turned out great. i've just taken my second try out of the oven an hour ago and it looks spectacular. i did not think i could derive this much joy from such a simple thing. my wife is making fun of me cause i just keep going back to the kitchen to stare at it.

ONE OF US

lol just wait til you start taking pictures of your BRED and sending them to you friends

haha i have definitely already done that

Yeah, I derive a unique satisfaction from baking compared to cooking, though I do A LOT of cooking and not as much baking (until recently). I think one factor is the mysteriousness of baking - unlike cooking where you can taste along the way and get a sense of where things are going, you never know how baking will turn out until the moment of truth - the dough/batter/whatever goes into the oven as one thing and comes out suddenly and utterly transformed.

after feeding my sourdough starter each day for a week and making the dough yesterday, I just finished baking my first loaf of bread. I'm letting it cool now. It looks amazing. If this tastes as good as it looks, I'm never bothering to buy bread again

my cousin is a genius, he taught me how to bake a perfect loaf of bread the first time!! I wrote it all down so I can reproduce it. I just sliced into my first loaf to taste it, it is amazing, maybe the Tartine breads are better, but not to me right now

STRAIGHT INTO MY YEASTY VEINS

after doing hearted bread v satisfactorily for ages, inability to find fresh yeast meant i started doing sourdough.

the first loaf was like a massive biscuit basically because i rushed it as i had a booked slot at an exhibition and hadn’t got my timings right.

the second was better but stuck badly when i turned it out to be baked, so it lost all its structure and air.

third time lucky tho - made a large loaf for me, and a smaller one for my mum who i was visiting for the first time in five or so months. the first could have done with a *bit* of a hotter-for-longer oven, the second i overdid it and it burned a bit. (the tart is a provençal pissaladière btw). anyway, i was VERY PLEASED with these. posting photos to everyone obv.

https://i.imgur.com/K2ChDqq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6RU0H8n.jpg

nice. second loaf not burnt imo.

Agree, i like a dark crust on bread. Both look amazing.

excellent. today is another sourdough day, so will update on “crust developments” later. uh also “hearted bread” should obv be “yeasted”.

All fresh bread is hearted by me tbh

Great loaves, Fizzles, esp that darker second one. I'm a big proponent of pushing the bark of the loaf till the last moment. The flavor's just better.

those loaves look amazing!

i'm making another bread attempt, the first loaf in flour water salt yeast

i salute you!

this was fun and it appears to have worked except the bottom looks a bit too black. we'll see!
https://i.imgur.com/dq3UUBV.jpg

ooooh O_O looks good!!

damn, nice crumb!
https://i.imgur.com/tZqL0qS.jpg
i ate some and it was good, maybe will try to move it higher in the oven next time if it'll fit. i will do one of the pre-ferments next bc i like a more yeasty taste, this was sort of basic.

tremendous!!

i still can't believe i did it. i've had such a bad time with bread. it's because of kneading, i can't knead properly so i have to stick to stretch and fold for now. the only bread i've made that i've been happy with is cinnamon raisin bread from the bread baker's apprentice (will make again) and that was still too dense!

i haven’t kneaded in years. with sourdough it’s all stretch n fold.

i am on day 2 of the flour water salt yeast (i keep wanting to say salt fat acid heat) levain process. it uses SO much flour. but it's working. it has more than doubled in size in 10 hours after i re-fed it for the first time. it's alive! weird how every book uses a totally different process though.

yeah i pretty much abandoned flour water salt yeast because you either end up wasting a bunch of ingredients or have to plan ahead to make more things with the leftover levain.

sourdough waffles are an EXCELLENT use of leftover starter/levain

we’ve been making sourdough basically since right after lockdown began and have yet to run into this “leftover starter” problem

for this one i haven't yet reached the stage where i have starter. each day you have to throw away 75% of what you have and add 500 grams (2 cups) of flour. i'm on day 3 of 5 (?). you can then keep a smaller amount of starter. i don't eat enough bread to make more than a loaf a week so i will be refrigerating but i plan to make pretzels and pancakes soon.

Yeah having a growing kid who loves sourdough requires two medium-ish loaves a week so that’s driving us

successful pain de campagne, ignore all the crumbs on my stovetop. i avoided burning the bottom this time, maybe helped by parchment paper and/or a little less time in the oven.
https://i.imgur.com/8qgx8zv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NBrXMBr.jpg

wow that looks like the fucking business

it's really tasty and the texture of the crust is great. i'm going to make another recipe "field blend #2" with my bf tomorrow, might try a batard shape in my oval dutch oven. i have just a small bag of whole rye flour, i can't find a place to buy 5 lb bags of it other than online.

i have another book my brother got me for xmas that has a lot of scandinavian and german breads made with dark rye flour

does anyone here have a good bagel recipe, ideally a good sourdough-based bagel recipe? i've made them a few times and they're pretty good but not great. i suspect a lot of it has to do with me doing a bad job of forming the bagels in a way that overworks the dough, but it could also be the recipes i'm using

hmmm, no sour but i've made these about 4 or 5 times the last couple years:
https://serenalissy.com/new-york-bagels/

i've never gotten the toasted-on-the-outside/chewy on the inside i'm after, but they come out fairly well and satisfy a bage jones. ftr, i did cross-reference with another recipe i found and they were basically identical, so just kept the one. you could just make the dough a couple days ahead of time to get a little sour thing going i guess? think i may try that come to think of it.

curious to see another recipe if you have one convenient to hand, NA. i sort of developed my own technique for forming bcuz the directions did not make sense to me, or rather, seemed to complicated. i just make little rolls from the dough then stick my thumb through and pull 'em apart, sort of the same way i learned how to work with pizza dough.

i've used a couple of different recipes but i've just googled sourdough bagels and gone from there. they usually turn out OK but a bit too dense. i learned the first time that you can't get a dozen bagels out of a batch of dough, they end up too small. i've used the bagel forming technique you mention but then i try to smooth them out and that's when i think they get overworked. the last time they came out of the water nice and big but then deflated a bit after baking, which i believe is an indication of overproofing? i've only made them a few times so i think it's mostly just a matter of a) finding a good reliable recipe and b) making them enough times to get the technique down

I had never made bagels until a couple of weeks ago. I tried this recipe and they came out beyond anything I expected:

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/sourdough-bagel/

Now a word of warning: this guy is kind of a jackass imo - he lists ingredient quantities like "429g flour" - as if it's an architectural project. Try not to get thrown by all that. Essentially you're making a stiff sourdough bread with an extra boiling step. That's it.

The day they were baked they were just freakishly good. Subsequent days, and after a freeze and thaw, they were still good but pretty standard.

thanks, Tracer! bread flour seems logical. and i love the shaping pics. am definitely gonna use this recipe as a guide next time.

By the way, I didn't have any 'barley malt syrup' (!?) so I found some thick, gooey date paste and used that instead. It worked great. You could probably use molasses or even honey or something.

I also didn't use any diastatic malt powder. Sue me.

yeah i've used maple syrup as a sub before. thanks tracer

comcast is working on something and internet keeps going out intermittently (it's on now obv) therefore i "can't work" and will make a raisin bread

i'm on day 2 of the three-day bagel recipe. i formed them with the snake method this time and i think i prefer it, even if my bagels still turned out a bit lopsided.

omg. tell us how it turns out!

the swirl doesn't appear because this is near the end of the loaf but this worked a lot better than the last time. i wasn't so fearful of overkneading (i was using standmixer and just let it go and go until i reached the required texture), which led to a much stronger rise. and used 8.5x4.5 pan instead of 9x5.
https://i.imgur.com/CJ73yqg.jpeg

i mean last time it was too dense, tasted fine though

That looks wonderful

i am going to make some loaves this weekend. have been feeding my starter regularly to get it ready instead of what has become my habit of just every few days. i want to put in some seeds, maybe one rye with caraway and one with sunflower. does it absorb too much of the water or do i just add them without worrying about that? also looking for some new flour ratios. i have whole grain spelt and rye.

by weekend i mean wednesday because i am only working today and tomorrow #veterans

ok i have discovered you need to soak the seeds. i am looking forward to this seedy adventure.

i made a pretty good rye, caraway, beer and honey loaf from claudia roden’s Book of Jewish Food at the weekend. i think it needed to be slightly more hydrated but it tasted great.

Oh, we have that book! What would you do different next time?

so the recipe says to add only enough beer 'to make a dough that holds together.'

i took that pretty literally (and followed the quantity guidance, which was 125ml water, ~350ml of beer - so very low hydration), but i the dough was just too dry and crumbly (and absolute murder to knead). I'd add slightly more liquid to get a more elastic dough next time. she does say in the next paragraph not to add too much flour in the kneading stage as the dough is intended to be 'a little sticky compared with white bread dough,' so i was a bit wtf Claudia make up your mind.

weekend sourdough here - heavily floured because FUCK ME it keeps sticking, which makes. me. mad.

https://i.imgur.com/RtWhMqi.jpeg

slightly crumbly rough looking rye here:

https://i.imgur.com/yTuqABW.jpeg

(smells and tastes great mind)

Yeah I was thinking when I was reading that that the fragrance alone would make it a really nice bread (for someone else in the house) to make especially as it’s pretty cold rn. As ever, your sourdough looks very good!

made this, https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/kansas-sunflower-bread-recipe , just came out of oven 30 min ago so i haven't cut into it yet. instead of 361g white bread flour i did 201g AP flour, 80g white whole wheat, 80g spelt (i believe this flour is "sprouted" but i'm kind of confused by the label from the bulk place). i always get dough that is too wet from these recipes, it won't even make a ball in the mixer, added back another 1/2 cup or more of AP flour. it looks like a very tall loaf, the tallest i've ever made, so i don't think anything went wrong.

ok here is photo.
https://i.imgur.com/Nr2fq8E.jpeg
great-tasting bread, perfect density, but a bit crumbly. probably because of aforementioned flour adding. i'm just afraid of very wet dough. but this was not just very wet, it was way too wet. no one would have been able to knead it. i am going to try letting it sit after mixing next time. especially with the whole grains. this would be a nice tuna fish sandwich or grilled cheese bread. i just toasted it and had it with some peach jam.

yum

that is amazing.

kept on forgetting to feed my starter so instead have been making (very nice) rye, beer and honey bread.

did make my first batch of sourdough for the first time in a while over the weekend though. i fluffed it a bit, so it hasn't risen as much as i'd've liked, and the first loaf could have done with longer in the oven, but on the whole am quite pleased.

https://i.imgur.com/yO68uSJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ePN4O2A.jpg

most importantly of all, it tastes great, with the crust approaching the taste of my favourite bought sourdough (before they shut down).

wow that crumb is gorgeous.

you're courageous to prove straight in the banneton with no liner! early in my baking adventures i got burned a couple of times and never went back. i should though. those bullseye patterns are so nice.

this book just came out. it's great. a bit of a history of the bakery, pictures of impossibly attractive young people making bread yada yada but the back half of the book lays it all out there. the nuts and bolts of every variation on sourdough you can think of, and some others besides. i took a day-long lesson there a couple of years ago and the person teaching us said their philosophy is that 'there are no secrets in bread baking'.

https://e5bakehouse.com/e5-book/

thanks tracer, yes, i was pleased with the crumb, given it didn't rise as much as i'd hoped. after really losing my shit with my carefully constructed loaves *sticking* whether on cloth or direct in a banneton, and spending ages on the internet trying to work out how to stop this happening, I have decided the key is... use a shit-tonne of flour. you can always brush it off before it goes in the oven if necessary (though the above ones have worked out fine without brushing). Also, if your bannetons are relatively new, worth spraying them on the inside with water and roughing them up a bit a few times so that when they're dry the flour sticks on all parts of the basket.

book recommendation looks good. it's really helpful when people avoid mystique and are just very clear on hints and tips etc. very easy for skilled people to get a bit 'guild secrets' about these things, or 'this is the way it *should* work' when experience teaches you something different.

Couple of things I'd rectify next time:
1) don't put them in the bannetons upside down, so that you have to take them out and put them back in the correct way up (which is upside down confusingly). I think this broke some of the structure hence them being flatter than i would have liked
2) i just think they need longer in the dutch oven. it's not creating as much steam as I'd like before I take the lid off to get the crust.
3) Oh and my structuring isn't always great. I think this is partly to do with the instructions I'm using which are fine if you want an oblong but not if you want a circular loaf. The 'creating tension against the seam' bit just isn't working for me at the moment.

Things I still don't really understand.
* They're not really *springing* up, so that where you've made the cuts you get a nice explosion. With yeasted loaves I'd've said I'd overproved them, but i don't think that's the case for sourdough? It may be an issue to do with structure or indeed that initial oven temperature.

first thing is i’d make sure your starter has enough oomph. at one point i realised that if i refresh it the night before making the leaven it has a lot more power. i just refresh and stick in fridge.

you should put them in the bannetons upside down i.e. seam side up so that you can plop them onto a piece of parchment paper by just turning over the banneton. i’ve learned you don’t actually have to be gentle on this step! you can really just whack them out plop. you do need to score them and get them into your dutch oven or into a baking stone pretty quickly though because they will spread.

in the pics i can see that they crusted over a bit early - they haven’t got that really explosive “ear” that is the proof if you like of a good spring. two things on this 1)you need maximum amount of steam, like you say. give it a good 20 minutes, even 25 in the dutch oven with the lid on. 2) you might consider adjusting your oven to just use the bottom heating element for those 20 minutes so that the tops of your loaves don’t get too hot too quickly and crust over. with a dutch oven i’d think that wouldn’t be a problem because the lid would provide some protection but something to try maybe.

for shaping a circular loaf i get my hands floury and sort of twist the dough on the counter, any direction you like, which usually plumps it up a little bit. you may need a scraper to help along any little bits. then you can lift an edge of this mass, stretching up and then folding towards the center and kind of poking it into the middle. like a flower petal sort of, that’s shutting itself down for the night. do that all the way around so you’ve got a little package. may need the scraper to help with this. and use your scraper to help lift that off the counter and you can lay in the banneton just like that, with your flower petal seams on top. i usually like to lay it first in some dusting flour before the banneton just to make sure it’s got a good layer there.

for pre-shaping your “boules”, this guy is my god:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEG1BjWroT0

i don’t do what he does for the final shape, but his pre-shape is so unbelievably satisfying and efficient and it’s not hard to get down.

one big tip for that pre-shape? put ZERO flour on your countertop. this will help create that tension you need. otherwise it just slides around.

Soda bread in our house today, came out just right

https://i.imgur.com/3a3tb9f.jpg

Nice, texture looks great. Is that a mix or did you have a recipe?

Uh id need to ask the house tbh, shes currently waspish over an email tho

Oh i read the question again, no shes mixing her own from some recipe

Nice loaves fizzles! On the mystery lack of spring - Tracer otm about making sure your starter is at the right point & lively. Maybe try cutting proofing time too, just to check on the over-proofing? Or work the dough a bit more early on to develop gluten and build the strength to handle the proof.

That is a very useful pre-shape video Tracer - I've generally just done 'shaping, but less so', but will try that pushing-around with the scraper next time.

I've found shaping the hardest part to nail. It's got better incrementally with a few factors changing - mature starter, I've got better at building strength, learnt how to handle dough better (flour hands over and over, don't be timid with it and work quickly - treat it like you're confidently handling something very hot, I read somewhere).

I used to go seam side up in the banneton, but I was reading the Forkish book late last year and he says seam side down, bake with seam side up. I've been trying it - not sure there's a huge difference. Slightly better crumb in the middle maybe.

Had been thinking about getting a thinner crust & got lost in this thread yesterday. Fascinating gluten knowledge.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54803/chasing-thin-crispy-not-thicktough-dough

Other random notes -
I've been giving it 30 minutes in the dutch oven, at the oven top temp (which says 260 but is more like 230 from the oven thermometer I bought to investigate), then ~20 with eyeballing with the lid off. I actually don't really know what difference the lid on/lid off split makes - ie, what does less steam do?
Relatedly, I have gone from 'haha baking nerds measuring temperatures, f that, it's probably about right' to monitoring several thermometers.

getting rid of the steam means crust will start to form. 20 minutes or so is about right. if you did, say 40 mins of steam and 15 mins without then your bread will be 'done' but your crust won't be a nice deep golden brown

yeah floury hands for shaping - but wet hands for stretching/folding!

Thank tracer - makes sense when put that simply. One of those things I want to experiment with - I don't really get things till I've f'ed around with them a bit.

on starter comments - yeah my starter this time around was v borderline imo because i’d been forgetting to feed it. almost threw it away but decided to go ahead and pleased i did. but yes, can see how that would be an issue for spring.

i enjoy the initial shaping process, a bit of swishing around and tension building. v nice pre-shaping technique in the video and will go for that approach next time.

woof - your temperature comments feel right for my (very bad) oven (ie lower than it should be). i’m going to extend the dutch oven phase a bit longer and see what happens. also dig out my oven thermometer.

i used to use an oven thermometer but it just stressed me out tbh. now what i do is 1) steam phase: maximum heat for at least 45 mins BEFORE putting in the bread. the whole appliance retains its heat better like this, so that when you open the door to put in your dough it can recover quicker. bake for 20 mins or so. like i said above i usually change to just bottom element for this part, but i use a stone rather than a dutch oven. 2) dry phase: turn down to 230C until it gets the right shade of brown. for me this is usually another 35 minutes but i like it really dark. i also remove the parchment paper for this phase so the bottom gets nice and brown.

crunchier crust tip: once you’re finished baking, leave the loaf in the oven for 10 mins after you’ve turned the heat off.

if you want to bake on a stone, you can put a pan of boiling water in the bottom of the oven about 10 mins before putting in the dough, and leave it there until the dry phase.

worth saying some people don’t turn down the heat for the dry phase, and bake for less time. they just keep it blasting. if i do that my loaves are a little gummy inside.

ALL OF THAT SAID fizzles your bread is beautiful and the crumb looks sensational and i bet it tastes great

ha ha it *is* great but i love the tips and am looking forward to applying them all and coming back here when things aren’t quite satisfactory for more tips until it is PERFECT.

worth saying some people don’t turn down the heat for the dry phase, and bake for less time. they just keep it blasting. if i do that my loaves are a little gummy inside.

Thanks for this tip, tracer. I had done this the last few times because I liked the brown crust, but was getting some gumminess so I think I will stop.

yeah! if you reduce the heat to about 230C and bake for maybe 10-15 minutes longer than you usually do that should get you there. i too like it very 'bien cuit'

by the way, my last two loaves i pre-shaped and left of the counter for the usual 20 minutes or so before final shape and into the bannetons.. except.. i ended up playing two and a half hours of NBA2K21. i let out a yelp when i went to the kitchen. the dough had developed a bit of a skin. i shaped as normal, put into the bannetons, which went straight into the frige, baked the next morning per usual.... and they were absolutely fine

suggest banneton

haha had an almost identical experience a couple of months ago after deciding to find out what World of Warcraft was like nowadays.

by no means perfect - the leaven was somewhat lacking in... jouissance, so it's not quite as buoyant as i'd like, and it's overfloured, but this loaf is great. crust is crackly and delicious as is the crumb. tracer's shaping video is really great for the pre-shape, and decided on woof's timings of half an hour in dutch oven and 15 minutes uncovered.

because the leaven hadn't risen quite as much as i'd hoped in the morning, i gave it another couple of hours in a warm area. this didn't make it any more bouncy as such, in fact it became a rather elasticated, not v holey substance, so i was worried about the outcome. i've heard i think that the longer you leave the leaven the more sour your bread tastes? If that's the case the leaven may not have been great for bounce, but was fantastic for taste.

https://i.imgur.com/nDnsEls.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/xgEQKxG.jpg

that looks EXCELLENT

yeah the “aeration” in there is magnificent

Looks great, bet it will toast really well in a few days when you’re down to the last of it

it’s nice getting back into the rhythm of doing a loaf a week habitually. really got to work on my final boule shaping which is a bit slapdash (surreptitiously looks to tracer for more magic videos or tips).

might start trying some other loaves and options soon as well.

Slightly frustrated - my head's not in the game. Just went back to Forkish's White bread with poolish - which I've successfully made a few times & is delicious - and had a flat disaster. Barely any rise.
Unripe poolish I think - normally I'd wait & maybe give it a little heat but I just threw it in, barely checking.
Now I must eat a dense, ugly loaf before I can trying again. This is my punishment.

the only way to learn is to eat the mess you’ve made, no question.

I neglected my starter in the run up to xmas, thought I got it going again but baked over the weekend and it felt closer to a ciabatta rather than a boule. Think I need to keep feeding that little dude even more than I thought.

people say you can let it go a month but ime if you leave it longer than maybe 10 days you really have to work to get it strong and active again

We were away for a few days after Christmas. Forgot to put the starter in the fridge & I suspect the kids had the heating on full blast, because there was pink mould on top once I got back. No smell, and very liquid. Seemed dead.

Got a couple of tbsp from the bottom and fed it a good mix of wholewheat, white and rye. Nothing after 24 hours. Tried to convince myself that it would be healthy and unsentimental to start a new starter from scratch & that I should get better at baking with instant yeast anyway.

But then! Tiny little bubbles the next day. Took about a week to actually recover, but it's alive & is baking as well as ever.

Taken it as a warning - I slowed down on baking since I got a dog, but I enjoy it & I was so glum when I thought the starter was gone. Made me realise I need to pick up the rhythm again.

(& of course I discarded & fed every day till it was back to its usual winter self - sluggish, 8-10 hours to ripen)

pink pink pink pink
pink mold