who will have the more lol liverpool career?

“I’m gutted to be leaving my hometown club, I was told to go. I didn’t want to leave that’s why I signed a five-year deal [with Newcastle in October]. I was pushed out of the door.” – Andy Carroll.

Great way to start your career by saying you don't want to be there.

Bah, doesn't matter. Skilful players are all very well, but it's hard to beat having a big, fearless, bone-headed guy to line up behind. You want to try it sometime.

will you ever put a lid on it? seriously, you're like a wittering fucking aul one

directed at thread starter

haha

There are some guys who, when they are at home, have a big telescope to see what happens in other families

Yes because of course this is not a legitimate topic of discussion. In fact lets all just forget that Liverpool just spent 50m+ on two of the craziest players in the game, nothing to see here. Holyfield's ear? It's fine love, stop your whining! What's wrong with a couple 'guilty' pleas now and again, we've all been there amirite - just so tall that when the glass slipped from our hand, it would reach a certain velocity before the guy standing below me's face would catch it. Nah, this is a subject that will bore the tits off us in the coming years.

Jesus Ronan, how about I pay attention to this national talking point because they have the nation talking and not because I'm a weird stalker.

y'all's sport is truly insane

i always admired the dude for throwing his hand up so i'm gonna cast my bad karma on the other one, who seems like a really swell guy to have around in all facets of life

You know I need to do is go further down the rabbit hole and only talk about Arsenal football club, ignoring everything else that happens in the game. Not even gonna pay attention to who we play.

oh come on jordan, american sports must be just as crazy? maybe they just keep it out of the headlines better? young highly determined millionaire men put together in rooms all around the world seems like it has endless potential for outside lols no matter why they are there

Nah, the sad truth is that US sports can only muster up characterless goody-goodies like Michael Vick or Kobe Bryant or OJ.

lol -- we certainly have our fair share of criminals & women beaters, the whole notion of the transfer period is still o_O to me tho tbh

Transfer window is megalolz for insane last-minute idiocy like trying to buy Phil Neville for the loose change you found down the back of the sofa or attempted gazumping of Liverpool for an average midfielder you don't even need for shits'n'giggles with one minute to go.

And for forcing people to spend £35m on the likes of Andy Carroll because they get all panicky.

I like the idea that US sports have this heavily centralised economy whereas the UK football is the free market at its most berserk.

I once made an Americas communist sports gag and people went mental tho. Turns out America doesn't like something they love being equated with communism- who knew?

Doubt that, it's pretty obvious. Always thought that American Football has a lot more collectivised ethos than Soccerball too - player roles much more rigidly defined, plays more tightly controlled by coach etc. Tho you could argue that yr American Football is more an example of Henry Ford-esque production line techniques than the dead hand of Commie-ism I suppose.

Yeah, touchy like that. I saw some voter being questioned in the run up to the last presidential election. He mentioned some minor policy of Obama's - "sounds like socialism to me" (it didn't). But for him it clinched the deal. Okay, not an unusual example or indeed anything to do with sport - does make me wonder why the republicans are the red party though.

I wonder if injuring yourself by falling off a stool while drinking Jagerbombs is the sort of wake-up call that will ensure Carroll becomes a model professional for the rest of his career.

I'm offering odds of 25-1 on that.

And for forcing people to spend £35m on the likes of Andy Carroll because they get all panicky.

£35mn must have been well worth it for Kenny when he realised his only valid centre forward for the Europa League was N'Gog.

Probably a toss-up between signing Carroll and hitting the gym himself.

Still think Chelsea's signings are a much bigger gamble than Liverpool's. How much are they paying Torres? If it's the same or more than JT and Frankie Lamps there's going to be trouble.

Jt's contract automatically updates to being 1k more than the top earner.

As much as Nando has had a bad year and oooh we don't know a lot about Luiz, that's still not £35m for a player with 1 England cap.

But it might be £50m + crazy wages for a player who will never recover his best form and become increasingly injury-prone

You know the cliche 'will pay it back in shirt sales' (and sponsership more importantly) - Chelsea don't caaaaaare... (not saying this is the right way to think)

£70m loss would suggest they aren't paying that much back in shirt sales or sponsorship.

Yeah I thought Benny Noon and Ramires would be on everyone's back

£35mn must have been well worth it for Kenny when he realised his only valid centre forward for the Europa League was N'Gog.

And that there are no centre forwards anywhere else in the universe. Well played, Liverpool.

They sold a forward who had gone shit on them and bought two cracking players,only spending a couple mill.actual decent bit of business.

Potentially, yes it is. I feel they could be spectacular if they click.

It feels like Kenny's been watching Carroll's potential and thought he's got to have him at any cost because if he fulfils it he'll be the decade's defining player. Like signing Shearer and trying to get Keane, or Ferguson with Rooney. Plenty of counterexamples, depending on taste.

like Duncan Ferguson to Rangers maybe

I bet Kenny has nothing to do with transfers though? Damien got this thing on lock.

That is a massive massive "if" in Ismael's version of the reasoning. I quite believe it though. It's weird though, onimo and I were discussing in the pub last night how Celtic got a guy who scored more goals in the Championship last season than Carroll, presumably with a lot less effective service than would be afforded by Newcastle's other players, for only £2m. Is Carroll REALLY worth 17.5 Gary Hoopers, especially taking his, um, challenging behaviour into account?

he is, liverpool made it official.

Yeah, s'pose. And I *know* that that's just how it works, but it just baffles me sometimes when I sit down and actually think about it.

I would recommend never thinking about these things. Personally learnt this is dangerous when Bent went for more than Henry a few summers back

English player transferring between epl clubs = cheerio to the laws of god,man and nature.

Henry's career has not exactly been stellar since that point though.

Carroll is inevitably going to end up at Spurs at some point in his career, before running down the clock at West Ham.

Great piece by Martin Samuel.

http://tinyurl.com/62n96wq

Yeah he only won La Liga, was Barca's top scorer his first season and won the Champions League, broke the 100 barrier of international caps, played with potentially the greatest soccerballer ever...

And then he went to shit. You don't spend enormous sums of money on players with only two good seasons left in them.

Thread really needs lots of people throwing around the word "amortization" as if they know what it means.

It means breaking up the amount over the length of a contract - not that hard to do 35/5=7m per year

pete w i shake my little fist at you

me: not sure what i think of this yet
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1352649/Martin-Samuel-Fair-play-Roman-75m-reaches-needy.html
me: mostly 'o god'
Sent at 12:55 PM on Wednesday
Benjamin: mostly 'just no'
me: yes
'this given climate of money necessitates the need for more money'
Benjamin: it inflates the market and so perpetuates the divide between those clubs that have and those that have not
me: i.e. what you just said
Benjamin: yes
it's unbelievably boring
me: i skimmed it and thought 'oh no trickle down'
Benjamin: Chelsea were trying to live off their own resources and doing very badly so Abrahaovich just hit the CHEAT button
me: 'that shit is predicated on there BEING mega-rich clubs patronising smaller ones'
yes
Benjamin: it's kind of admission of failure
me: an admission that football is a free-market insanezone
Benjamin: I only hope that UEFA stand firm by their financial fair play rules and boot Chelsea out of Europe
yes
me: :D
and it's also trying to say that the clubs are less venal than the organisers
which may not even be true
Benjamin: what will redress the gap between big and small clubs is to stop big clubs being able to throw around £70m that they don't have
me: it's the TV companies who control the finances at an administrative level anyway
exactly
it means that some money 'trickles down' but all players 'trickle up'
and competition is stifled
Benjamin: yes
cf Spanish League
me: and the money that 'trickles down' merely increases the money
and not the competition
Benjamin: where much of inequality comes about from the fact that Barca and Real buy up all the other teams' good players to be in their reserves
me: sellable assets mean sold assets
Benjamin: yes
me: hence, viva blackpool
haha
Benjamin: ho ho
me: chelsea did that too
cf parker, sidwell etc
yeah we got roman's money
now we're in league one
the money culture DOESN'T save clubs
it merely inflates prices
Benjamin: yes
me: hence more money is put to use on buying fewer players
Benjamin: yes
me: now we buy players for fairer prices
in the lower leagues
and it's much better
we're not continually blowing our wad on flops
in the end, the money culture forces clubs to gamble
rather than slowly build
Benjamin: yes
me: arsenal and spurs are better than most at doing this
Benjamin: eg. Bent, Bentley, Modric
me: but even they have their moments
yes
Benjamin: yes
that's why I was worried about a £30m bid for Rossi
me: you dodged a bullet
Benjamin: he is pretty good
but...
Spanish League is crap
Aguero I would have more confident with
me: "Suppose you are one of the Manchester council workers losing a job, but also a Manchester City supporter. This will be a thoroughly miserable time for you, with perhaps one small pleasure: the hope your team could win the league."
Benjamin: though he's small
me: o_O
how fucking condescending
Sent at 1:06 PM on Wednesday
Benjamin: yes
me: "Remove the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Inter Milan and Chelsea from the competition, insert Bolton Wanderers or Sunderland instead, and see how long its popularity endures with supporters, sponsors and television companies.
After all, who doesn't love the Europa League? Thursday night, Channel Five."
die, martin samuel
Benjamin: the free market's fine in football and in life if you consent to having an incredibly boring existence
me: yes, one ruled by the inevitability of submission
Benjamin: where the rich have no fear of losing what they have and the poor have no possibility of betterment
but get the lie that they too could become big
me: this is why american sports are better-organised
Benjamin: yes
though they have the problem of a certain randomness what with the draft
me: that's great though :D
you're talking to someone who would love a bit more randomness at charlton, crisp owl or no
we have signed BWP
and he is scoring
so i guess that'll do
Benjamin: maybe but it makes developing a club difficult
me: haha yeah I suppose
there has to be a balance
living off fair means
Benjamin: yes
me: and getting in players through scouting and trials
Benjamin: yes
Barca realised it first and then Arsenal
me: there needs to be more of a bond of loyalty between players and clubs - contracts are too idolised
Benjamin: i'm not sure it's strictly a finacial thing
it also helps ability
me: you don't hear about barca players' contracts
Benjamin: the problem is it takes many many years to come through
me: yeah
Benjamin: not that Barca aren't blameless or anything
me: of course not
they have the TV rights of an entire league
at their mercy
Benjamin: I think part of the other problem in spain is that English football has much mroe of a history of competition whereas Spain does not
it makes is hard to implement change because a lot of the population simply don't care that much
me: so it's accepted that only two teams will ever really win. so it's an overhyped scotland
Benjamin: yes
that's the other thing
whole leagues have fallen aprt
me: whereas english football is slowly choking the smaller clubs
Benjamin: Dutch, Scottish
me: yeah
Benjamin: Italy is a bit different
it's much more their fault
me: the bigger leagues have squeezed the smaller ones
well italian players usually prefer to play in italy
so there's at least a governable element
it's not all free-market savagery
Benjamin: maybe the problems there are that stadiums are crap and that calciopolli really hammered a lot of the big clubs
me: in a way, the italian parochialism fits what a 'football club' should be
Benjamin: maybe
though less racist
me: a localised means of gathering the townsfolk behind a common cause
hey, there are a few really left-wing clubs in italy yknow
Benjamin: yes but..
me: anyway, osasuna beating rmad shows that the magic is still there, sometimes
it will just eventually founder
under the might of hard cash
this is why the cliche of 'real football' in the lower-leagues has some truth to it
Benjamin: yes though that's not without it's own problems
Notts County
Leeds
Crawley
me: yeah well that's what you get when you let people pour money into football clubs rather than let the club grow organically
clubs should get their money from the attending fans
ideally, there shouldn't be money at all and we should live in a big hippie commune
where football clubs are arranged by loyalty and bond of word
and where fernando torres wouldn't have to fake new words of excitement when he moved
'i just wanna play with this lot now'
weeps openly
Benjamin: yes
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/writers/sid_lowe/archive/
see articles 3,4,5
me: are they related
Benjamin: yes
me: excellent
Benjamin: although I think you should read them 5,4,3

wd like to add that you don't hear abt barca players' contracts because they're obviously ALL fucking enormous and what is interesting about that? players go there to have the best of every world except credible competition. much prefer the youth-system barcelona to the global-hegemony barcelona

sid lowe is whipping me up into a righteous froth that I was already heading towards

I'm all for EITHER absolutely savage free-market, no artificial barriers to entry and investment, OR a set-up along US lines with more even distribution of resources. And given a choice, I'd prefer the latter.

Platini's plans are a fudge that don't get to the heart of the problem, which is the reward structure of the Champions League, which is the 'money culture' encapsulated.

Well the clubs who win the most will make the most money will pay the best wages will get the best players because they do so they can win the most.

I just really hope Chelsea win the CL asap and Roman subsequently says 'ok game over, hope u had fun', would be fitting

nah, one taste of it and you want it every year, who am I kidding :(

Ideal situation sees RA celebrating his win by setting John Terry on fire.

Well the clubs who win the most will make the most money will pay the best wages will get the best players because they do so they can win the most.

― if there is a King Kenny, apparently he is huge into slapstick. (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 2 February 2011 13:36 (5 minutes ago)

this logic may seem immutable to you, but to me it traduces what a football club should be

I think our culture of having the manager run everything is a big problem. It is fine when it is Moyes or Wenger and they will never be fired but most managers have 6 months to prove themselves and so fuck it, spend all the money to try to prove yourself and not care about the youth system/bring in your own coaches and new scouts and physios etc. etc. - Lyon got it right in part because they would just tell the manager that morning that X is coming and that Y (Y can equal a new signing or promoted yut) wouldn't be in training anymore and he was to get back to working out the best tactics for that weekend.

What was the figure in Why England Lose... there is a 98% correlation between wages spent and league place, while fuck all correlation between transfer spending. Also helps that Barca can spend so much on wages when you get yr Xavi for free and not for £70m like he'd cost on the market.

yeah well, clubs should be in a perpetual slow-build-and-simultaneous-realisation loop - arsenal do that pretty well and don't tend to bully other clubs with their cash AS MUCH as some of the others, but they still wield it when they 'have to'

a good youth setup should be mandatory for every football club. it should be the lifeblood.

and other cliches

I like the idea of the 18 smaller Spanish clubs colluding to lose every single game against the big 2 as a means of protest. Even if that means no Osasuna 1-0 Real Madrid

'I just really hope Chelsea win the CL asap and Roman subsequently says 'ok game over, hope u had fun', would be fitting'

You know, I'd kind of be happy with that too. What happens, happens.

arsenal do that pretty well and don't tend to bully other clubs with their cash AS MUCH as some of the others, but they still wield it when they 'have to'

Can you give me... 1 example to back this up?

All clubs should have an academy and when in 10 years the Bundesliga is untouchable as the best league in the world making the most money and being watched by the most people winning the most trophies, everyone might sort their shit out. But probably not.

Spending up to £10m oa time on Southampton schoolkids not really in the business plan of most clubs.

Barca wages aren't that insane.messi makes loads,but less than your tevez,terry,rooney etc. in epl afaik.xavi,iniesta a step down.puyol,pique another step down.busquets and valdes again,whatever.

Only reason they have insufficient competition is a) they're amazing, b) mou is no pellegrini,lol.

messi is on £275k a week and is the highest earning footballer in the world

competition is more than 1 other team

the top 2 have no competition at all, and none feasible

also lol

arsenal buy youngsters, yeah - it's still flashing the cash, although in mitigation these youngsters know they'll get a thorough football education and probably tell themselves with some truth that they're going for aesthetic/footballing reasons

that said, you can get a thorough if less-heralded football education at any professional club

I don't see what is bullying about the Theo transfer though? Southampton wanted (/needed - lol finances etc.) to sell, set a price and we were one of many clubs to do so?

It's bullying - the fact they 'needed' to sell is indicative of a football culture where bullying is not just endemic but mandatory

anyway I bet Nasri cost a packet

huh? its a sign of being badly run and getting relegated while still paying top level wages and building a stadium they couldn't afford

messi is on £275k a week

woah. And low, low taxes to boot

Also, who or what is 'benjamin' and why isn't he/she/it posting here? Could be Carroll to darragh's Torres

he/she/it is my best friend and is quite wary of messageboards so I wouldn't bank on it. will tell him about ILF though, he may approve. although do we really need another spurs fan?

Hm, fair point.

Is he Irish as well? Or a proper kosher fan?

yeah he has refused :( but you still get his gchat wisdom now and then, he's got this thing about not commenting to the internet personally but is cool if I quote him

he's got irish blood yeah!

me: i posted our conversation to the 'I Love Football' messageboard and now someone's requested you start posting there :D
Benjamin: well I won't
i'm afraid
me: haha
i had thought so
Benjamin: due to the 'no comment on the internet' policy
me: ah well
Benjamin: but feel free to upload my wisdom
me: that will be no problem
Benjamin: now
for the real discussion
let's kick blacks out of football

a sad loss

hahahahahaha

Obv figures are based on conjecture as cronaldo is widely reported as best paid footballer and afaik yaya toure,who didn't always get a game for barca,gets paid more than any of their players at city. Alves going the same way for same reason in summer.

Lj spanish football has only just became such a tiered system between top tier and rest.couple of years,hardly scotland yet.

Does Carroll still have to live with Kevin Nolan?

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

a new challenger appears...

any truth in the rumour jonjo shelvey posted a pic of his jonjo on twitter

lol "a new challenger appears"...can hear the bad synth brass in my head

So glad Suarez started well.

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=jonjo+shelvey

MrJoebangles_: lol jonjo shelvey put a pic of his tallywacker on twitter... LAD

Carroll needs to sort it out obv.

Bah, doesn't matter. Skilful players are all very well, but it's hard to beat having a big, fearless, bone-headed guy to line up behind. You want to try it sometime.

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, February 1, 2011 1:11 PM (1 year ago)

how'd i miss this un

big andy's first prem half-season was pure thrills and no snooty revanchism can ever take that away so ner imo

its the final sideswipe at a hoy hoy that makes it, imagining a counterfactual where wenger sold rvp and bought pogrebnyak

and the winner is... luis? idk really, both were p lol

yeah, you called it

Coutinho/sturridge next pls