Lynskey's right about legislative debate on this for the US, as well (dunno quite how it's shaping up in the UK): during the State of the Union it was a bit disappointing to me to watch our entire government collectively cheer sentiments that -- even going by the most flattering polls -- the barest majority of their constituents favor. One wishes to see some contingent, however wrongheaded, staying seated.
The answer to Lawrence -- i.e. "why would we grab oil this time" -- is that it's a necessary part of the plan: I haven't seen anyone here argue that the U.S. is not planning to install a hand-picked regime after Saddam's removal, which does in fact amount to a grab whether we mean it that way or not. And we will grab. My only concern about this sort of thing is whether oil money actually profits the drilled nation's citizens or not -- so I'm not hugely worried about this, because in the short term I think a puppety "democracy" would, however bad, result in better retention and distribution of the wealth than an autocracy ever would. In the long term, well, I'm a bit less confident.
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
Its not what we can do, it what we should have done. Its too late. People listened to economists who talked about infinite growth in a finite world, and we will all have to pay the consequences.
>I'd put some major hopes into the hydrogen car deal and the> nuclear fusion reactor I've heard is being built for powerup in 6-8> years or so (no, not cold fusion).
Which fusion reactor is this?
>Oh, the coming doomsday scenario when we suddenly run out of oil.> What a completely nonexistant problem that won't hit us for at> least another 40 years.
Was I talking about running out of oil? No, that is not for another 10-20 years (40 is *very* optimistic, but, either way, in our lifetime). What I was talking about is right now, oil reserves in the US are at an all time low, oil prices are rising, and with the economy as bad as it is right now, a steep rise prices will utterly cripple us. Even if we raid Iraq, it will take a few years to get production up, esp. if Saddam decides to blow up his wells.
>I'm sure that damned "physical reality" also had a lot to do with> the downfall of companies like Enron and Worldcom, as well as the> bankruptcies (sp?) of United Airlines and Tyco. How could it just> be bad business practices and corporate greed?
::double sigh::
Companies can fail just fine from mismanagement/fraud. That is neither here nor there.
Although, I would like to point out that all airlines are doomed, since there is NO replacement for petroleum-based aircraft fuel, or, if their were, it would be so expensive it would make commericial flight uneconimical.
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
Easter Island is the classic example. The short version is, they came to a tree covered island, using timber they increased their population, they eventually cut down every tree, and then their population starved down to a fraction of what it was. When Cook landed there he found the remaining islanders in a wretched state of existence..
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
Which many companies and researchers are, though in numbers (and in timing) far less than needed and far too late than possible in Fletrejet's view. I'm more sanguine about it all, but that is also my nature, and I could well be wrong.
But ultimately, I think this -- with few exceptions, nobody knows exactly how they're going to die or what might be the eventual cause of their death, or whether everything around them will in fact be dead and gone the next day or decades or centuries later. Given that, plan ahead, act for what is right in the face of the odds, but retain hope. Cockeyed optimism? Not in my view, call it a gamble that makes more sense than Pascal's gamble with God, in that it's a little more tangible. The world, sad, brutal, idiotic as it is sometimes, is still here for now, and only if I am proven wrong am I wrong.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
Jesus lord...how many times do I have to say it?
*IT'S NOT MY HYPOTHESIS AND I DON'T SUPPORT THE WAR* Oy. Continuing...
>>Its not what we can do, it what we should have done. Its too late. People listened to economists who talked about infinite growth in a finite world, and we will all have to pay the consequences.<<
I'm sorry, but no one is stupid enough to believe that oil will not run out. Humanity is a bit smart for that. Maybe not this administration or the one after it, but perhaps subsequently. If something needs to get done, it will. I don't think 40-50 years from now, when South America and the Black Sea run dry, the world will just go "oops" and revert to the dark ages. For christs sake, think about all the innovations that have occurred in the last 50 years and the changes in life that have come with them.
>>Which fusion reactor is this?<<
ITER, AKA International Tokamak Engineering Reactor. Its being built by the EU, Russia, Japan, and Canada. Given the recent jumps in production from fusion reactors and the advanced design of this one in particular, it seems possible for the first time that a hot fusion reactor may create energy rather than spend it on heating plasma.
>>Was I talking about running out of oil? No, that is not for another 10-20 years (40 is *very* optimistic, but, either way, in our lifetime). What I was talking about is right now, oil reserves in the US are at an all time low, oil prices are rising, and with the economy as bad as it is right now, a steep rise prices will utterly cripple us. Even if we raid Iraq, it will take a few years to get production up, esp. if Saddam decides to blow up his wells.<<
10-20? LOL...right.
It would create a recession, yes. Hell, any war will do all the things you just spoke of (cause a rise in gas prices and lower emergency reserves). And I don't doubt for a second Iraq won't blow the wells sky high. Need I remind you, though, that I'M NOT A SUPPORTER OF THE WAR? ::shrugs::
>>Although, I would like to point out that all airlines are doomed, since there is NO replacement for petroleum-based aircraft fuel, or, if their were, it would be so expensive it would make commericial flight uneconimical.<<
Oh no! We're going back to boats!
ROFL
What a hilariously overblown doomsday scenario, man. Should we expect the second coming of Jesus to go along with all this? Or maybe that Mayan deal where all the man made things turn on humanity and the whole of the planet is killed by electric razors run amuck?
- Alan
― Alan Conceicao, Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 6 February 2003 18:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
...and the whole of the planet is killed by electric razors run amuck.
Jesus shaves!
― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'm *against* unilateral action against Iraq because I believe the proof that they have strong ties to terrorism and therefore are an immediate threat to the US and its allies is very weak.
I'm *in favor of* UN action against Iraq in accordance with the 4-5 UN Resolutions banning WMD in the nation of Iraq (the result of the war in Kuwait). I believe there is still a month or two before for some very serious negotiations between the two parties (UN and Iraq) and they should be trying to get a hold of each other. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would deny Iraq has such weapons.
I need to add to something too....
>>And of course the problem with the Iraq + Al Qaeda = KILL THEM ALL equation is that Pakistan easily solves A, B and C of yr hypothesis above<<
The US went to the UN yesterday to prove that Iraq still has a chemical and biological weapons program, which they CANNOT have by international law and are subject to disarmament as a result. The US cannot do the same thing with Pakistan in the UN, even if they wanted to. Why? Because Pakistan can have as many WMD as it damn well pleases. It never lost a war so badly that it had to negotiate a cease fire that gave away its ability to have such things. Iraq does not have this freedom, thus the US went to the UN to try and drum up support.
>>How suprised will the Iraqis be when the hundreds of thousands of troops massed in kuwait and saudi come pouring over the border. <<
They aren't coming from Saudi Arabia, far as I know. The Saudis aren't housing troops this time because they're scared shitless of the possible "retorts" from their citizens.
― Alan Conceicao, Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
Yup...just read that. They must be getting oil rights and a aid package then. They held out for a loooooong time.
― Alan Conceicao, Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
― the pinefox, Thursday, 6 February 2003 21:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 6 February 2003 22:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Stuart, Thursday, 6 February 2003 23:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 7 February 2003 00:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Stuart, Friday, 7 February 2003 00:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 7 February 2003 01:04 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Friday, 7 February 2003 01:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Stuart, Friday, 7 February 2003 04:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
― I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Friday, 7 February 2003 04:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
interesting to read these threads 18 years later
― mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 05:27 (two years ago) link
pic.twitter.com/U32mZrjF8g— Ken Klippenstein (@kenklippenstein) October 19, 2021
― mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 05:44 (two years ago) link
ackerman: https://foreverwars.substack.com/p/the-only-man-who-could-have-stopped
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 20 October 2021 05:49 (two years ago) link
momus OTM
― symsymsym, Wednesday, 20 October 2021 06:18 (two years ago) link
The US is just trying to show that Iraq is lying about its stockpiles of WMD (which almost certainly exist except in the mind of only the most hardened pacifist)
― Nature's promise vs. Simple truth (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 11:23 (two years ago) link
Holy shit at how conservative/blinkered 2003 ilx was. "I just assume Iraq has WMDs and connections to Al Q", "Taking oil is a legitimate foreign policy action".
The invasion of Iraq was the turning point in my radicalization from a somewhat apolitical former conservative toward a progressive. So, thanks, GWB.
― Hannibal Lecture (PBKR), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 11:58 (two years ago) link
Momus and Lynsk3y as the voices of reason!
tbf I'm guessing a lot of what was happening here was ppl pushing back against Momus because of his hot takes on, like, a hundred other topics
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:19 (two years ago) link
I didn't expect to spend 40 mins yesterday destroying Colin Powell's rep on Facebook with Democrats.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:23 (two years ago) link
Yeah lol same. I was raised v conservative yet entirely put off by W’s affect and evangelicalism. So even when I’d moved to voting solely for Democrats —mostly for aesthetic reasons tbh—I spent most the two years between 9/11 and the invasion and fallout thinking “well gee whiz they clearly know things we don’t and surely they wouldn’t just cook this up whole cloth. It’s just been eXeCuTeD pOoRlY”. What a fucking rube. The absolute state of public school history classes in this country.
― caddy lac brougham? (will), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:27 (two years ago) link
(Re - The invasion of Iraq was the turning point in my radicalization from a somewhat apolitical former conservative toward a progressive. So, thanks, GWB)
― caddy lac brougham? (will), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:28 (two years ago) link
I'll admit being the first black national security advisor, chairman of JCOS, and secretary of state are important, and, according to the former State Department employees I argued with yesterday, he "modernized" the joint; but fuck him and fuck these people who accused me of lacking nuance.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:36 (two years ago) link
*Black
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:37 (two years ago) link
(public school history classes and a compliant housebroken MSM)
― caddy lac brougham? (will), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:40 (two years ago) link
robin wright’s take too, also apparently a very nice guy! she stumbles over cliched reverence for his path like only a white liberal could
https://www.newyorker.com/news/postscript/colin-powell-the-humble-american
― mens rea activist (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:42 (two years ago) link
After Bush was reëlected, in 2004, Powell drew up a list of things he wanted to work on during the second term. He took it with him when he was summoned to the White House. He never had a chance to explain it, he later told me. Bush blindsided Powell by announcing that he had just asked Condoleezza Rice to serve as his next Secretary of State. Powell had been fired. He was clearly stung. It was an ignoble end to a lifetime of public service.
Wait -- so he was fired? How did I not know this? This makes him more repugnant. I thought he'd resigned.
― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 13:12 (two years ago) link
Apropos of nothing, did anyone go from opposing the war at the start to enthusiastically supporting it?
― Typo? Negative! (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 14:25 (two years ago) link
Colin Powell lol jk
― caddy lac brougham? (will), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 14:27 (two years ago) link
no joke, him signing on was really key for me (and clearly a lot of people, which the Bush admin and pro-War media leaned on hard obv) initially thinking that It Just Has to be Done
― caddy lac brougham? (will), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 14:36 (two years ago) link
Sorry I fired you, guy
https://www.bushcenter.org/about-the-center/newsroom/press-releases/2021/10/statement-by-president-george-w-bush-on-colin-powell.html
― Legalize Suburban Benches (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 14:52 (two years ago) link