Buddhism

that quote appears contradictory to me. I mean presupposing there is such thing as "mind" of course , but if the mind is "beyond all definition, conception etc" why is this person attempting to define and conceptualise it?

I think you will find that, upon closer reading of the quotation, the author of it was not attempting to define and conceptualise "mind" so much as using a process of elimination to name some misconceptions one might have about "mind". Likewise, when the author says that "the nature of the mind is emptiness", he is not so much attempting a definition as he is using a finger to point at the moon. You should not mistake the finger for the moon, nor should you understand "mind" to be the same as "emptiness".

The author is trying his best to use an inadequate tool (language) to give useful hints and indications, while warning you that, in the same way that the map is not the territory, you will have to supply a leap of understanding to get from one to the other.

Most bright children quickly figure out what might be called "the dictionary problem" - that dictionaries purport to define words, but can only define words by using other words, which are in turn defined by other words, which require further words for their definition, and so on. I'm sure this hasn't escaped your notice.

Buddhists do not dismiss this problem as a silly children's paradox that one quickly learns to ignore. To a buddhist, this conundrum helps to reveal a basic fact about human suffering. Knowing this fact, they feel compelled to teach it to others, but because of this fact, they must learn how to tie knots in smoke. If it seems a bit tortuous sometimes, it is not because they are more flawed than the rest of us, but because they are compelled - by the iron law of compassion - to impart what cannot be spoken, mimed, or pictured. If that seems easy to you, try it sometime.

well done.

i'm a have to look up shentong now

while i think the point abt language is valid and relevant it doesn't totally address the question - if emptiness is free from concept how can it be said to be imbued w/the qualities of buddha nature: wisdom, compassion and strength.

this question has for a long time been a fault line the buddhist world. and emptiness is generally considered to be the most intellectually challenging buddhist topic. so i doubt we're going to arrive at any definitive answers here.
but i will go ahead and recommend this book:

http://www.snowlionpub.com/data/img2/prstme.jpg

PROGRESSIVE STAGES OF MEDITATION ON EMPTINESS is a clear, brief (unusual for the genre) exposition of five different views of emptiness with corresponding contemplative meditations. written by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche one of the truly great meditation masters and buddhist scholars in the world today. so so good - lots on shentong and rongtong.

Shentong...is a philosophical sub-school found in Tibetan Buddhism whose followers hold that the nature of mind is "empty of other" (i.e., empty of all qualities other than an inherent, ineffable nature), in contrast to the “Rangtong” view of the followers of Prasangika Madhyamaka, who hold that all phenomena are unequivocally empty of self-nature, without positing anything beyond that. According to Shentongpas, the emptiness of ultimate reality should not be characterized in the same way as the emptiness of apparent phenomena.

its not really good beginner general overview type of book - but if you're interest in a manageable introduction to madhyamika - it is great.

xp

Cool. Have you read his newest book?

I have not, though I should. I'll add that I grew up Zen Buddhist and have a pretty severe allergic reaction to the way Zen has been appropriated in the american marketplace (zen spas, zen candles, $350 zen massages etc etc), so when I caught one of my earnest-LA-yogini friends with a book called HARDCORE ZEN a few years back I was pretty scornful. Oh great, another 200 pages of bandwagon-jumping BS and yoga journal platitudes dressed up as rebellion etc etc.

So then I started flipping through it, and I was all like damn if this guy doesn't actually get it. Turns out he's a really good guy, too. And a total dork, which is a really valuable lesson in itself.

yeah, i've really liked a lot of what i've read by warner so far (just online articles).

i've knocked out two watts books in the last four days, but i think i need stuff closer to the source

fwiw, it seems to me (a total rube) that making the distinction between shentong and rangtong is itself a bit of a koan --- actually teasing out the differences between the two schools hardly seems elementary (to me), but that undertaking the effort to do so would probably prove fruitful

yeah progressive stages of mediatation on emptiness approaches it from that point of view like this is the shravaka approach to emptiness why dont you try to understand it?

obv tho khenpo tsultrim is firmly in the shentong camp.

Oh great, another 200 pages of bandwagon-jumping BS and yoga journal platitudes dressed up as rebellion etc etc.

So then I started flipping through it, and I was all like damn if this guy doesn't actually get it.

Ha this has been the reaction from literally EVERY person I know that's seen it, scorned it, THEN read it (myself included).

Hey guys did you know the British Library offers pretty, high quality pictures of their copy of the Diamond Sutra (printed in 868!)? Check it.

Hi AImless contrdictions dont rly bother me --in the name of the father, son and holy spirit-- as for the paradox I guess dictionary words can be seen as invisible social realities, at least as long as they are diffused and accepted, but I dunno, if you hadnt nticed words arent really my ting, never have been.

jhøshea I have a few more perhaps naive questions but I know nothing about Buddhism beyond the letting go notion. My reply up thread to river wolf was a poorly disguised dig bout perceieved indifference towards the external world by buddhists, do buddhists have a negative view of external reality and what are the consequences of this? xcuse any probable miscontruction-- Im thinking the " lol caring bout shit" stoner zen sterotype.

ALso in general terms can you tell me about salvation and nirvana as you see it?

I might venture that Buddhists don't have a "negative" view of external reality, but hold that the distinction between internal and external is an illusion that should be shattered. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as the external world to be negative about. There is only "thus."

Put another way (and of course speaking strictly within my own limited understanding of the soto zen tradition): it's not that I don't care about the external world or believe that it doesn't matter. The aim of my practice is to realize (ie live out the fact) that from moment to moment there is no division between "me" and the material world. There is just the quiet hum of the Moment itself. As I understand it, the concept that the material world is illusory is a way of pointing at the truth that, in the Moment, there isn't any disinction between "internal" and "external."

Ha, I hope this has clarified rather than confused the issue for you, my limited understanding makes all this more difficult to put into words.

thnks BH, bear with me, is this "quiet hum" seen as an end in itself or a means for something else, if that makes sense?

thnks BH, bear with me, is this "quiet hum" seen as an end in itself or a means for something else, if that makes sense?

In the beginning of your search, the mountain is just the mountain. In your search, the mountain is no longer just the mountain. Once you obtain the way, the mountain is just the mountain again.

Paraphrase of something I like.

If I may inject my own interpretation into the conversation, it's like this. Buddhism is about realizing, on an everyday, every moment basis that you have no separate self from everything else. It is this notion of separate self that causes pain - jealousy, fear of death, etc. So obtaining the here and now in practice is a means to deeply understanding this. To deeply understand this, you have to let go of conceptions of understanding, and just practice. In the end, the practice itself is the end.

This is why in Soto Zen they say that as soon as you sit to meditate, you are already enlightened. My interpretation.

before you even begin to meditate you are already enlightened

we are all enlightened but we dont even know it

work hard to clean off the no-mirror? no thanks

i'd rather dance and sing and burp my way to truth

master go ahead and try to hit me with that stick, i'll show you the wood sutra and be on my merry way

xposts

Yeah I'd be strongly inclined to agree with humansuit there: meditation is enlightenment. We are all already awakened, we're just so burdened with judgements, confusion and fear that we don't normally realize it. In meditation we realize (ie "make real") our awakened state.

I look at it like this: meditation is preparation for standing up and living life. In meditation you realize your essential unity with the moment. Fantastic, but only the one who is fully open to the Moment in daily life is truly Awakened (ie a Buddha, Enlightened Person, though I don't really like those terms because they suggest there is a singular "goal" for meditation rather than presenting it as the ongoing process that it is).

The struggle in meditation comes in learning how to sit with our quiet minds. The better we get at it in meditation, the better we will be at it in our daily routine. The better we get at living in the Moment in our daily lives, the clearer life will be.

I suspect Jhoshea might provide answers very different from mine, I'd be interested to hear them.

^^^ i think i agree with this, but that's mostly because i've only really been reading zen things lately (v. the Tibetan stuff jhoshea is into).

i think what bothers me about non-Chinese/Japanese Buddhism is the apparent reliance on karma and reincarnation to motivate people to live compassionately. A literal belief in reincarnation seems totally incompatible with what I understand to be Buddhism. Unless the concept of "rebirth" is meant to convey an understanding of impermanence. I am continually reborn with each passing moment, etc.

(what i mean, by the way, is that chan/zen/seon makes sense to me precisely because it seems to rest on one, simple, ineffable truth, while tibten/pure land/all those other flavors i don't know yet seem practically judeo-christian in their belief in the supernatural. i like all the artwork tho)

i'll show you the wood sutra and be on my merry way

favorite ever

This is why in Soto Zen they say that as soon as you sit to meditate, you are already enlightened. My interpretation.

also i believe that the central message here is otm

do buddhists have a negative view of external reality and what are the consequences of this? xcuse any probable miscontruction-- Im thinking the " lol caring bout shit" stoner zen sterotype.

yeah it's a tricky thing, easy to veer from emptiness to nihilism - or conversely from from devotion to total religiosity. and i don't see how not caring is a good thing in the context of a tradition that takes compassion as its motivation. maybe you try to care a little more about other people's external circumstances and less about your own. basically not caring is a crude interpretation of non-attachment which has more to do w/shifting your interest from self centered to compassionate - more the result of meditative realization than a decision to just not give a fuck.

a story i've heard many times: soon after arriving in america in 1970 chogyam trungpa rinpoche met shunryu suzuki roshi. they hit it off immediately. there was some sense, that in those nascent days of western buddhism, they were each others' only allies. and over the brief time they spent together they developed a deep respect and bond.

when suzuki roshi died in 1971 trungpa rinpoche attended his funeral. there was a quiet contemplative atmosphere - all his students holding themselves together like good little buddhists. at some point trungpa rinpoche was given an opportunity to say a few words. he got up in front of the assembly, sat down, and started weeping. like how can one man produce so many tears, total waterfall. his tears were flooding the place.

so everyone loses it and the whole funeral is crying. gone from behaving like buddhists should, to genuine people heartbroken at the loss of their teacher and friend.

is "behaving like buddhists should" an love-filled yet ironic comment, in this case?

yeah you know confusion affection etc

Because Buddhists should just act like they want to act, like the old monk who dropped his rake in the garden and sprinted into the monastery at dinner time just because he was hungry.

well forms are there for a reason and it's good to practice them - just not in a deluded manner. this is not a let your freak flag fly type of situation.

Oh let us not argue about who is and is not qualified to judge what 'delusion' means. Let's just keep it light and airy.

"Asking where the Buddha is, is like hiding stolen loot in your pocket and declaring yourself innocent."

self-delusion of course. wasnt trying to imply that i was in any position to judge anyone's realization or anything.

Okay, I can dig it.

Since pure awareness of nowness is the real buddha,
In openness and contentment I found the Lama in my heart.
When we realize this unending natural mind is the very nature of the Lama,
Then there is no need for attached, grasping, or weeping prayers or artificial complaints,
By simply relaxing in this uncontrived, open, and natural state,
We obtain the blessing of aimless self-liberation of whatever arises.

DUDJOM RINPOCHE

"Zen is like a spring coming out of a mountain. It doesn't flow in order to quench the thirst of a traveler, but if the travelers want to help themselves to it, that's fine. It's up to you what you want to do with the water; the spring's job is just to flow."

--Alan Watts.

i think what bothers me about non-Chinese/Japanese Buddhism is the apparent reliance on karma and reincarnation to motivate people to live...

My mother said she was going to talk with her ancestors (in the shinto temple). I immediately switched the subject. I am sorry, I can't really follow her that far. :-( I mean, shit, I'm happy for her if believes in it, but I... no, reincarnation and talking to ancestors is sth I don't really *buy*.

This is what I meant when I cried in the shinto temple: I am touched by the spiritualism but once I start to understand the words they are singing/saying, I slowly back away. :-( I hate myself for it.

im not really sure who this gentleman is but i just had to post this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkICMrNG78M

this guy

no really guys
this guy

irritating

If Brad Warner is the real deal, he sure has a funny way of showing it. But, so did Trungpa, right? I don't think he really "gets it" after reading a few of his angry blog entries, but I'm not going to get all involved in picking him apart. He's trying, he's helping, good for him.

Just for kicks, how do you think he compares to Noah Levine, the other Buddha punk? I'd say "Dharma Punx" has a more attractive cover than "Hardcore Zen." Noah likes to talk about anger in a sort of helpful way, too, and has made a nice line of dharma punk-wear for kids. He flips the bird less and all-around seems more of a positive guy (for a guy who makes a living out of "rage turned inward"). So, I'd say Noah is "more Buddhist."

It's funny that Tibetan and Zen are the two most popular forms of Buddhism among Americans and here we have two examples of violent western culture regurgitating it in a form more appealing to self-centered knowitalls.

well its pretty hard to judge whether or not someone gets it. best thing is to narrow the field to those whore linage-approved who've at least had proper training. all these self-styled people, you have to ask yourself, why would someone want to be a dharma teacher?

uh who're aka who are yeah

all these self-styled people, you have to ask yourself, why would someone want to be a dharma teacher?

To make a lot of $$ of irresponsible writing and "dharma" clothes? ;)

"dharma" clothes? = a nice line of dharma punk-wear for kids

http://www.dharmapunx.com/img/prd/big/ats_hoodie_script.jpg
http://www.dharmapunx.com/img/prd/big/ts_mad.jpg

whore lineage-approved is a brilliant typo.

Thich Nhat Hanh is my favorite Buddhist author and teacher. His biography of the Buddha, Old Path White Clouds, is also my most recommended text for beginners and enthusiasts alike.

Zen Keys is great also since it compares Zen and Dzogchen.

Quick story. I was traveling through Europe back to the US a week after Richard Reed, the shoe bomber. I was coming back from a very rough journey, in which I gave away all of my clothes and shoes except for what I had on. So here I am, unshaved, unwashed, wearing hiking boots, and my last stop was India. I stopped in to buy the latest Thich Nhat Hanh book, I think called "Anger," which just has that title on it, and a picture of a lit match.

Needless to say, when I got to customs the guy looked at me like I was about to bomb a plane. Luckily, no cavity searches were involved.

Hmm. That story isn't very good in print... o well!