itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one

(I hope my saying chick so much is not bad form itt)

if only ~those~ guys would sack up and respectfully approach the women they find so attractive maybe there'd be more love in this fucked-up little world

Were you there when I started panicking b/c I coulnd't get pizza place guy to leave me alone while I was waiting for my order last night? :( I shouldn't have panicked I guess but he was ignoring ALL my social cues to stop being familiar w me, and he kept getting closer and closer.

"did you see the crazy guy with the tinfoil on his head?"
"no, and I totally see through your attempy to objectify him due to your sense of exclusion from society, crepe."

really, ~that~ guy COULD be doing what Laurel is saying, but to categorically say ALL such guys who do that are is bad sociology 101.

That guy who shot a bunch of women in a gym is the extreme of this, but basically talking about women on the street is like the "harmless" end of the same thing. Not actually harmless at all of course.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 3:23 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

no. i do not accept this. this is a wrongheaded and terribly, terribly pernicious way to conceptualize male sexual desire and the communication of such. to see and to desire is basic, absolutely basic, to the human psyche. to attempt to communicate this desire to someone "safe", someone who presumably will not object to the expression, is the most natural and harmless thing in the world.

is there a sort of "us and them" conceptualizing going on in the though-process that chooses another man as the "safe" object of such communication? sure. but it is again perfectly natural, normal and harmless.

it has NOTHING to do with the radical sort of psychotic alienation that would lead someone to shoot a bunch of people. we can compare the two things in an abstract sense as they're both examples of dividing people into mental groups, but beyond that the comparison is horribly unfair.

I guess part of the panic is my reluctance to be bald-faced rude about it, I keep hoping that you know, being frosty will send the msg, cos I don't want to go over the edge in public and start yelling at people.

this is one of those things that i feel like is deeply ingrained in what dudes do all the time and it's one of those things that might creep women out even when it's casual and harmless, but we can't really imagine why or how it would be creepy. it's likely just one of those things women catch just on the periphery as they're passing by, but it weirds them out, and over time it just builds into this thing where you start to feel like guys like this are just repulsive.

gear once more bringing truth to mayhem

yeah. i agree that there's a weird complicity involved in a stranger doing this, but would fight for my right to engage in general smash-talk with friends.

xxxp

like it's something universal that all men share.

some guys are like that, though. esp ~that~ guy ie obnoxious gregarious guy. they're always making comments about the bonehead play the local quarterback made or how their old lady is raggin on them and you know how that goes, my man har har.

There does seem to be an "us against them" dynamic in this kind of behavior, but it doesn't have to be rooted in a perceived threat. More often than not, I think ~these guys~ just don't know how to relate to women on an equal civil level, and they probably take their cues from pop-culture depictions of the two sexes as separate alien species.

this is one of those things that i feel like is deeply ingrained in what dudes do all the time and it's one of those things that might creep women out even when it's casual and harmless, but we can't really imagine why or how it would be creepy. it's likely just one of those things women catch just on the periphery as they're passing by, but it weirds them out, and over time it just builds into this thing where you start to feel like guys like this are just repulsive.

Truth. I am getting like nervous and cry-y just thinking about the pressure that I feel from the behavior discussed in this thread.

i don't feel like most guys that say shit to you in public places feel threatened. though feeling threatened is sometimes an element of sexist behavior.

yeah. i agree that there's a weird complicity involved in a stranger doing this, but would fight for my right to engage in general smash-talk with friends.

tbh my stance is that there is a line which dudes have gotta learn. many choose not to. crossing this line is an act of mild sexual terrorism, rising to rape. fostering a gang mentality regarding the treatment of women creates a situation where men can act (initially talk, then physically behave) in a sexually barbaric manner. ~this~ dude approaching you is the first step on this ladder.

hence i can totally see where laurel, harbl etc are coming from.

I get nervous and cry-y when I think about the possibility of approaching the opposite sex because I'm worried that they will think I am a creepy dude

Plus, I love doing this with girls about guys, too.

crut i don't have the impression you should worry

i talk about women all the time with my male friends, and banter about it with my female friends sometimes too, but i think you just have to be respectful. that public ogling shit, the "hey bro you see that one?", i dunno...it does weird me out when i'm drawn into it.

take her, dude

in a way, i see the caveman communication of desire for profoundly alienated people as a kind of relief valve. they're all alone in their heads and trapped with this sense of frustrated longing - unless they can share it with someone else. it's a way of easing the burden, of turning separation into a cause for community.

of course, there are solo rapists, who don't even need a social or family situation to terrorise women (admittedly, their problems may have begun in such situations). these people scare me the most, but they aren't nearly so widespread. most rape is familial/social.

i think gear/other hoos/omar little/whatever we're calling him these days regularly displays class and discernment on threads like these - heed him imo

also i <3 contenderizer's awesome overthinking - never change, sincerely, plus your ponderings on my username have been noted and <3'd

Laurel's mention of cues missed at the pizza joint is quite important here. Sometimes, girls want to be flirted with, quite saucily, even, and others they want absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with you. It's really quite easy most of the time to figure this out and quite quickly.

a situation where men can act (initially talk, then physically behave) in a sexually barbaric manner.

Thanks, LJ - I know I am hard on you but in this case you've got what I was trying to say.

Also, the thing about the psychotic shooter guy -- it's documented that he thought men had the right to act in a certain proprietary way toward women, and that he was being denied that right based on not being man enough, or successful enough, and so on. His resentment at being shut out of something that was his "right" is what directed the nature of his violence. Would he still be a paranoid nut under other circs? Well I mean, probably? But killing women for this reason is fed by the same impulse as belitting women/acting like their bodies and sexuality are "yours" to publicly evaluate because you can't "have" them but you can talk about them and make them feel like shit.

It's way to "have" them without their permission or even involvement.

this thread is alternately hilarious and frightening

if there's one lesson i've applied over the years (a lesson i don't apply anymore these days being that i'm taken), it's that if i am unsure whether or not a girl wants to be flirted with, i choose to not flirt.

It's really quite easy most of the time to figure this out and quite quickly.

not if your social signals are the only ones that matter - it is a matter of broadmindedness, and awareness of everyone's individuality, incl one's own - don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram

is there a rolling feminism thread btw? serious question

another thing about a lot of ~these guys~ (not all) is that they will make sure the girl hears it, or they don't care if the girl hears it.

it's that if i am unsure whether or not a girl wants to be flirted with, i choose to not flirt.

Why bother flirting with someone who doesn't want to flirt back?

you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram

I curse you character limit feature

don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram

it has sort of worked tho xp

Anybody who says it in such a way that the girl hears it should say it directly to her face. That way she can smile or tell you to fuck yourself but at least you've made your admiration public in adirect way and allowed her the dignity to respond how she sees fit.

It wouldn't really creep me out if some insanely well porportioned, incredibly well-dressed, or otherwise very noteworthy person was pointed out to me - almost as an exclamation - but I do rather find it annoying when I am afterwards supposed to agree, deny or otherwise give a fuck what some stranger thinks.

Anybody who says it in such a way that the girl hears it should say it directly to her face. That way she can smile or tell you to fuck yourself but at least you've made your admiration public in adirect way and allowed her the dignity to respond how she sees fit.

Yes but past a certain level of disrespect/crudity/impropriety, just doing THIS is an assault of a kind.

Of course.

there is a line which dudes have gotta learn. many choose not to. crossing this line is an act of mild sexual terrorism, rising to rape. fostering a gang mentality regarding the treatment of women creates a situation where men can act (initially talk, then physically behave) in a sexually barbaric manner. ~this~ dude approaching you is the first step on this ladder.

― a. cole, u thic (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 3:36 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

i agree with this. helps me see what laurel was getting at. BUT. you could put that "first step" anywhere. you could put it at looking at a woman for a moment too long. (being ridiculous but bear with me.) the social line that separates acceptable from unacceptable expressions of sexual interest is not absolute. it's a cultural construct and it wavers all the time. it varies from culture to culture and even varies within any given culture depending on circumstance.

it may be that ~this~ guy is behaving in a transgressive, aggressive manner. i've seen that happen a lot - supposedly "casual" sexual banter from creepy strangers that DOES seem to sublimate hostility. but i've seen it be just sad, poorly socialized weirdos trying to reach out in a manner that isn't at all abnormal in their little cultural niche. so i'm loathe to judge the hypthetical.

Yes but past a certain level of disrespect/crudity/impropriety, just doing THIS is an assault of a kind.

But a world where no-one ever dared to pay someone, even a random
stranger, would be a very lonely and grim place, indeed. Plus I think this is very much a situationalist thing; it depends on the culture, on the kind of person, on how they're dressed, how they move, what expression is on their face, what kind of neighborhood it is, etc...

For the record, I've never been raped or even attacked/physically assaulted. I can't begin to imagine where your comfort line with this kind of shit shifts to after you have. I figure I might as well make the arguments now while I still can, eh?

it's hard out here for a laurel

It's really quite easy most of the time to figure this out and quite quickly.

don't remember who said this, but i don't think it's true at all. it's easy for me, but it wasn't when i was younger. and i don't think it EVER gets easy for some people. their social sense is lacking or distorted due to nature and/or nurture, and they just can't sort it out. they're handicapped, basically, though in a way that's not usually recognized. this is why they're alienated weirdos in the first place, and why they're liable to express themselves in ways that make others uncomfortable.

I've known a few people who have been attacked and they often find it hard to talk about it without being triggered into flashbacks or worse.

Contenderizer, I think the first step is any kind of approach. It can be a verbal approach. But any kind of unasked or unwanted approach, any kind of sexual familiarisation with the 'target', is the first step. Even if they're maladjusted, it's bad news. Your latest post is sadly OTM, though.

but I do rather find it annoying when I am afterwards supposed to agree, deny or otherwise give a fuck what some stranger thinks.

Yeah, the presumptuousness is what's off-putting to me: the notion that should I happen to agree that the chick was slammin', then that somehow aligns me with him and his worldview, which doesn't take into account the possibility that, beyond our shared appreciation for the woman's appearance, I might have more in common with her than with him.

yes

I think I'm responding partly to the fact that I see and hear this kind of male behavior a lot, contenderizer, and not from people who are considered weird or alienated by their peers. If anything, I wd think the men of ILX are probably MORE likely to be uncomfortable w ~that guy~ than the average male adult person in this country, let's say. But in my life, it's kind of normal for me to witness comments, or have them directed at me, and other men to laugh and/or join in. So...yeah.

totally get where yr coming from, laurel. i'm a guy, so i don't live in a world that's threatening in this regard, and it's therefore easy for me to be all abstract about stuff like this. maybe that sucks, i dunno...

This is prob one of those situational/cultural things that people are talking about. But it's also about class, and race, and poverty, and other stuff.

is there a rolling feminism thread btw? serious question

i disagree w/ the idea of a 'rolling feminism thread' in the sense that it should be a sorta constant mindset on ilx at some level

i mean, if someone had something they wanted to discuss about feminism specifically as a concept that makes sense, but in the context of this thread it seems reasonable to bring it up in this thread

I figure I might as well make the arguments now while I still can, eh?

dude really?

why they're liable to express themselves in ways that make others uncomfortable.

socially inept or not turning girls into porn is p creepy i mean