itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one

another thing about a lot of ~these guys~ (not all) is that they will make sure the girl hears it, or they don't care if the girl hears it.

it's that if i am unsure whether or not a girl wants to be flirted with, i choose to not flirt.

Why bother flirting with someone who doesn't want to flirt back?

you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram

I curse you character limit feature

don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram don't fall prey to the idea of self as purely sexual being, the typical 'horny lad' out for a fuck, who cannot be stopped by flood nor fire - you are a thinking, malleable beast with cares, not a penile battering-ram

it has sort of worked tho xp

Anybody who says it in such a way that the girl hears it should say it directly to her face. That way she can smile or tell you to fuck yourself but at least you've made your admiration public in adirect way and allowed her the dignity to respond how she sees fit.

It wouldn't really creep me out if some insanely well porportioned, incredibly well-dressed, or otherwise very noteworthy person was pointed out to me - almost as an exclamation - but I do rather find it annoying when I am afterwards supposed to agree, deny or otherwise give a fuck what some stranger thinks.

Anybody who says it in such a way that the girl hears it should say it directly to her face. That way she can smile or tell you to fuck yourself but at least you've made your admiration public in adirect way and allowed her the dignity to respond how she sees fit.

Yes but past a certain level of disrespect/crudity/impropriety, just doing THIS is an assault of a kind.

Of course.

there is a line which dudes have gotta learn. many choose not to. crossing this line is an act of mild sexual terrorism, rising to rape. fostering a gang mentality regarding the treatment of women creates a situation where men can act (initially talk, then physically behave) in a sexually barbaric manner. ~this~ dude approaching you is the first step on this ladder.

― a. cole, u thic (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 3:36 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

i agree with this. helps me see what laurel was getting at. BUT. you could put that "first step" anywhere. you could put it at looking at a woman for a moment too long. (being ridiculous but bear with me.) the social line that separates acceptable from unacceptable expressions of sexual interest is not absolute. it's a cultural construct and it wavers all the time. it varies from culture to culture and even varies within any given culture depending on circumstance.

it may be that ~this~ guy is behaving in a transgressive, aggressive manner. i've seen that happen a lot - supposedly "casual" sexual banter from creepy strangers that DOES seem to sublimate hostility. but i've seen it be just sad, poorly socialized weirdos trying to reach out in a manner that isn't at all abnormal in their little cultural niche. so i'm loathe to judge the hypthetical.

Yes but past a certain level of disrespect/crudity/impropriety, just doing THIS is an assault of a kind.

But a world where no-one ever dared to pay someone, even a random
stranger, would be a very lonely and grim place, indeed. Plus I think this is very much a situationalist thing; it depends on the culture, on the kind of person, on how they're dressed, how they move, what expression is on their face, what kind of neighborhood it is, etc...

For the record, I've never been raped or even attacked/physically assaulted. I can't begin to imagine where your comfort line with this kind of shit shifts to after you have. I figure I might as well make the arguments now while I still can, eh?

it's hard out here for a laurel

It's really quite easy most of the time to figure this out and quite quickly.

don't remember who said this, but i don't think it's true at all. it's easy for me, but it wasn't when i was younger. and i don't think it EVER gets easy for some people. their social sense is lacking or distorted due to nature and/or nurture, and they just can't sort it out. they're handicapped, basically, though in a way that's not usually recognized. this is why they're alienated weirdos in the first place, and why they're liable to express themselves in ways that make others uncomfortable.

I've known a few people who have been attacked and they often find it hard to talk about it without being triggered into flashbacks or worse.

Contenderizer, I think the first step is any kind of approach. It can be a verbal approach. But any kind of unasked or unwanted approach, any kind of sexual familiarisation with the 'target', is the first step. Even if they're maladjusted, it's bad news. Your latest post is sadly OTM, though.

but I do rather find it annoying when I am afterwards supposed to agree, deny or otherwise give a fuck what some stranger thinks.

Yeah, the presumptuousness is what's off-putting to me: the notion that should I happen to agree that the chick was slammin', then that somehow aligns me with him and his worldview, which doesn't take into account the possibility that, beyond our shared appreciation for the woman's appearance, I might have more in common with her than with him.

yes

I think I'm responding partly to the fact that I see and hear this kind of male behavior a lot, contenderizer, and not from people who are considered weird or alienated by their peers. If anything, I wd think the men of ILX are probably MORE likely to be uncomfortable w ~that guy~ than the average male adult person in this country, let's say. But in my life, it's kind of normal for me to witness comments, or have them directed at me, and other men to laugh and/or join in. So...yeah.

totally get where yr coming from, laurel. i'm a guy, so i don't live in a world that's threatening in this regard, and it's therefore easy for me to be all abstract about stuff like this. maybe that sucks, i dunno...

This is prob one of those situational/cultural things that people are talking about. But it's also about class, and race, and poverty, and other stuff.

is there a rolling feminism thread btw? serious question

i disagree w/ the idea of a 'rolling feminism thread' in the sense that it should be a sorta constant mindset on ilx at some level

i mean, if someone had something they wanted to discuss about feminism specifically as a concept that makes sense, but in the context of this thread it seems reasonable to bring it up in this thread

I figure I might as well make the arguments now while I still can, eh?

dude really?

why they're liable to express themselves in ways that make others uncomfortable.

socially inept or not turning girls into porn is p creepy i mean

is there a rolling feminism thread btw? serious question

there are many informative threads by famous ilx feminism theorist Calum Wadell

yeah deej this is a good thread imo for all its flaws but i mean a thread to collect news issues, personal revelations, good bits of feminist writing, marc loi in

and discuss why sarah haskins is so great

we already have no boys allowed in the room

^^^not enough marc loi content

xp ...which is about make-up, mostly.

i would not like to have such a thread though. i would like to not segregate that stuff, what deej said

that is a good point, i have to admit. it should inform every social-issue ilx thread. although sometimes people do write/say very good things directly relating to feminism which might not get posted to ilx otherwise.

btw i have no hesitation in describing sarah haskins as my #1 (well, pretty much my only) celebrity crush - i hope that does not make me ~this~ guy

the first step is any kind of approach. It can be a verbal approach. But any kind of unasked or unwanted approach, any kind of sexual familiarisation with the 'target', is the first step. Even if they're maladjusted, it's bad news. Your latest post is sadly OTM, though.

― a. cole, u thic (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 4:01 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, but that only applies when we conceive of sexual aggression in an entirely negative light. it IS negative in many circumstances, but it's also what allows humans to sexually connect with one another. the combination of moderate sexual aggression (on someone's part) and mutual sexual interest is what makes sex happen.

we're all allowed to make the "first step", right? to bare our teeth a little (so to speak), at the right time and in the right place. and the social rules that define right time & place are mutable, change a lot between groups. all of which we negotiate pretty easily if we're moderately attractive and socially skilled.

if not, we're creeps. our mildly aggressive first steps repulse people and we're reduced to commenting on strange asses outside liquor stores. all of which is too kind, because some of these guys would do worse, much worse, if they felt like they could get away with it. hell, some of these guys ARE much worse. but i don't like the suggestion that "the first step" is necessarily pointed towards something awful.

there are dudes who are creeps who are also socially skilled & pretty

lj you could start threads to discuss a particular person or article! no one is stopping you

There's such thing as an honourable approach. It comes through gauging both the circumstances and the individual one has chanced upon. It is manifested by an instant and PERSONAL revealing of oneself as interested or affable party. Thus, not so much an 'approach' in the predatory sense as a commingling of selves. There's a subtle difference. When the affability is a mask for creepiness, then that there is trouble. Women often learn to spot this type, but sometimes they don't. :(

Harbl, I guess!

there are dudes who are creeps who are also socially skilled & pretty

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/Gavin_Newsom_Oggling.jpg

I think the best way to respond to this is to engage in debate with that man, make it clear to him how his taste in asses sucks, "that one" does not possess a good ass, certainly not as good as the one on your ex! In fact ass-men are all latent homosexuals anyway trying to sublimate their homosexuality in faux-appreciation of the female rear.

lol ok i'm out

but i don't like the suggestion that "the first step" is necessarily pointed towards something awful.

I think there's a bit of self-protection in stuff like the poll results, based on exactly what you're talking about -- because you recognize SOME part of the impulse in your perfectly normal behavior, and you don't want yourself to be classed as crepey and wrong, so there's a natural tendency to want to make sure a space is left open for the more defensible facets of the behavior.

But this is kind of what I was mad about yesterday when the poll results came in, b/c men who mean the best of the possible end up justifying the worst of the possible sometimes b/c they're conflicted about it. Just because YOU wouldn't doesn't mean people don't.

yeah totally

there are dudes who are creeps who are also socially skilled & pretty

― ice cr?m hand job (deej), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 4:19 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeh, no argument. i'd formed a (possibly inaccurate) mental picture of ~this~ guy based on my own real-world experience of liquor store commenters of various sorts, and that's what i was talking about. sketchy, clingy, sad/creepy street folk.

Well fair enough, that's what this thread was orig about. But the rush to be as jokey as possible about it in a way that, if it were even like 30% truly what ILX guys really thought, would be fostering an attitude that endangers women...it really burned my shit up.

I think there's a bit of self-protection in stuff like the poll results, based on exactly what you're talking about -- because you recognize SOME part of the impulse in your perfectly normal behavior, and you don't want yourself to be classed as crepey and wrong, so there's a natural tendency to want to make sure a space is left open for the more defensible facets of the behavior.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 4:24 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

i, i don't know what to say. i thought i answered the way i did because the "slammin" answer was so retarded and awful, thus kinda funny. dumb shit, what can i say.

the word "defensible" bugs me cuz there's nothing to defend. the behavior i'm talking about is right and natural and god-fearing. the baby jesus smiles upon it. and the guy in question is totally being a horrible creep, no question. hope i haven't implied otherwise.

btw i have no hesitation in describing sarah haskins as my #1 (well, pretty much my only) celebrity crush - i hope that does not make me ~this~ guy

I saw her pantsless a few months ago.

(U.S. pants, not U.K. pants.)

i know - you're like a friend of hers - i am p-envious as cankles or ~this~ guy might put it

lj.xls o_O

Yeah, I know xxxp. ILX likes to be as ironic/noize as possible about everything in the world EXCEPT race, because people like DP and others make sure that reasonable boundaries stay up, and call people out on missteps, etc. hs, this is why I tend to compare racism and sexism on ILX -- NOT out in the world, where yes, they function very differently.

Nobody patrols ILX for gender issues/sexism, and it gets left to the "so ironic cos we're over it/past it as modern enlightened people" that it goes full force into "so disgusting that it's automagically hilarious" but then when THAT tone is considered normal, there's nothing to set it apart from what people really think and I just get worn down and sick feeling.

i think ilx is pretty good on gender issues - like better than most non-feminism-specific sites i've seen; there are a few noisy exceptions but the main caucus of regulars evince progressive and gender-equal viewpoints AFAICT

if i am wrong then i would be delighted to see and assist in the denunciation of counter-examples!

uh oh