itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one

Yeah, I had a HS math teacher who gave me the creeps and was a bully (also one of the football coaches -- surprise!) and whose wife coached the cheerleading squad. One day she had all the cheerleaders over to her house for a sleepover. You can imagine where this is going, because it's basically the plot of every porn ever.

I think the point being argued is that this:

us(ing) a woman's discomfort with being publicly sexualized to influence her behavior/reaction

is not actually a goal on the minds of the people doing this. Catcalls yes, but what is being discussed here is closer to the impulse that drives people to partake in celebrity gossip than anything else; you are making idle chatter/judgments about someone that would completely mortify you if they got back to the subject.

Dang. I had a HS math teach who was a football coach and had made some unusual wink-nudgey comments to me about how Dark Side of the Moon was really meant to be heard in quadrophonic stereo. After the graduation ceremony, he propositioned one of my classmates.

Laurel - I do understand where you're coming from. I reread what I'd posted last night and made a mental note not to post when exhausted. Want to write more but have to go to work now. ugh. Maybe later.

I told the story of how my Spanish teacher asked me out after I transferred out of his class, right? (well actually that's pretty much the entire story, so if I didn't before I just did now)

Catcalls yes, but what is being discussed here is closer to the impulse that drives people to partake in celebrity gossip than anything else; you are making idle chatter/judgments about someone that would completely mortify you if they got back to the subject.

― Huckabee Jesus lifeline (HI DERE), Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:47 AM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont know if this is always true--a lot of "check out the ass on that one" comments (ime) are made with the full intent of being heard by the subject

Yeah, this is where I go into "unfair semantic distinction" mode and say that if you are intending the person to hear it, you are catcalling.

Nobody patrols ILX for gender issues/sexism, and it gets left to the "so ironic cos we're over it/past it as modern enlightened people" that it goes full force into "so disgusting that it's automagically hilarious" but then when THAT tone is considered normal, there's nothing to set it apart from what people really think and I just get worn down and sick feeling.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 7:39 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

OK I can understand this and it's a fair point. I guess I just try not to take anything on ILX or anywhere else on the internet so seriously that I would let it bother me.

― bear say hi to me (ENBB), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 11:05 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
And maybe I'm in the wrong and should have higher standards regarding these issues it just doesn't seem like that big of deal to me in this context tbh.

― bear say hi to me (ENBB), Tuesday, December 1, 2009 11:09 PM (Yesterday)

yeah this is a t bomb and sort of the elephant in the room in that whole discussion

Yeah, this is where I go into "unfair semantic distinction" mode and say that if you are intending the person to hear it, you are catcalling.

― Huckabee Jesus lifeline (HI DERE), Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:52 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

o ok well thats fair then--fwiw all of these things are creepy so

oh I was DERE dan

also lol at Spanish teacher, I know who tha is ...

Dan my experience is strongly that men mean for you to hear it and also use it to reaffirm their bonds w one another. Catcalling IS a group behavior, or at least a public one, meant either for other men to hear and identify with, or to make a specific woman afraid/uncomfortable. Or on a bonus day, both!! This distinction is pretty meaningless to me because I think people who will do either are happy to do both if the opportunity arises.

my experience is strongly that men mean for you to hear it

Your experience is based only on the ones that you've heard though.

My experience is that the guys who actually mean for women to hear it are either drunk and trying to be funny or flat-out assholes that are actually disliked by or massive embarrassments to their friends who are not dislikable embarrassments.

The only way a woman can be included in that dynamic, or have status in that group, is to accept and show that she's okay with her image/self being sexualized by everyone freely, without her having any control over it -- that it's just The Way Things Are. I guess some women are more okay with this system than others -- Southern Belle Syndrome and so on. Me, it makes me want to vomit.

as long as we're sharting creepy teacher stories: my science teacher in eighth grade always made pretty weirdly sexual comments to this one friend of ours, usually in front of the class. we weren't at the age where we could really parse how fucked up it really was, but suffice it to say that i wasn't exactly surprised (though i was sad) to hear about a year ago that he'd been fired on grounds of sexual harassment of students and dumped by his wife

errr......."sharing"

bathetic typos

I assumed the strange man in the story did not want the woman to hear it

looking and wanting and even objectifying aren't necessarily sexist, nor is expressing desire in an uncivil manner.

I can't accept any of that. Incivility by men toward women IS sexist, if it's more than simple human rudeness and takes her sex or appearance into account. If you use a woman's discomfort with being publicly sexualized to influence her behavior/reaction, THAT IS SEXIST.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:38 AM (27 minutes ago)

see we still can't understand what the hell you really mean when you make these huge sweeping statements s/a "i can't accept ANY of this". you really think that looking at and wanting someone of the opposite sex is sexist?? the latter part i get

xp crut otm too

i dont think what laurels saying is really all that weird? let me put it another way: "if you are a jerk to someone in such a way that their sex or appearance is a major component of your jerkiness, you are being sexist"

"expressing desire in an uncivil manner" = "being a jerk to someone in such a way that their sex or appearance is a major component of your jerkiness"

us(ing) a woman's discomfort with being publicly sexualized to influence her behavior/reaction

is not actually a goal on the minds of the people doing this.

do you really think we're supposed to care what the goal is? i mean if it's obviously just a socially inept person trying to flirt with you it might be easy to decide it's harmless and walk away, but in general with guys on the street or public transit (or whatever, even guys you work with) i don't believe they usually say things thinking "yeah i'm gonna make this girl want to crawl into a hole." but it doesn't matter, you can tell sometimes that making people uncomfortable excites them on an unconscious level. that or they can't recognize discomfort or link visible discomfort to actual fear. it happens too much to just be like oh, he's just trying to be nice. who cares.

yes, that part i understand and sympathize with. i was incredulous that she's so offended that people find others attractive

i made that point earlier and harbl was 100% right to call me out on strawmanning, but now laurel's ACTUALLY saying it

xp

k3vin: No, that's fair, I can't really touch on the first part at all b/c I don't think about sex when I see attractive people around me. Or if I do, it only occurs to me as "I wonder if that would make me think 'x' if I were a man?" sort of speculation, because "appearance" doesn't make contact with "sex" in my brain without a lot of intermediary ideas, so sometimes I wonder what it's like.

just to contextualize, a woman who experiences this has experienced many instances of it before, sometimes accompanied by continued verbal harrassment/physical assault/threat. we can't tell if we don't know you that you're not a rapist, you know?

I don't want men to think of me like that, and threads like this make me want to crawl into a hole because it seems like all men want this to be the case secretly even if they seem polite. Sorry it's my personal issue.

o harbl said it better

I mean if that's the case then I'm not safe anywhere, is my emotional reaction.

okie dokie, i think you're in for a lifelong uphill battle if you're going to be constantly worried about who's looking at you and who's thinking what, but i understand you on a basic level

xps

haha k3v it wasn't just you in particular!

show that she's okay with her image/self being sexualized by everyone freely, without her having any control over it

How, exactly, does one have control over someone else's reactions to one?

Well the polite and "right" thing to do is to NEVER MENTION IT, duh. Flirtation is transgressive in this way, it invites people to cross the line of what is polite, it makes a different space where that is okay. That's why it's exciting on a lot of levels. But outside of a mutually entered-into place for that, it's offensive to me.

Okay not offensive like oh I dunno, genocide or something, but it's unwelcome, let's say.

That's possibly a better way of putting it than a 'commingling of selves' but yeah!

How, exactly, does one have control over someone else's reactions to one?

Obv you can't! But since you can't, the right thing for the other person to do is to never let on that this is happening. Because if it's unwelcome, you have no recourse, and that puts you in an unworkable situation.

So harbl, you kind of glossed over the subsequent post where I said that the people who are catcalling (ie, making lewd comments intended to be overheard by the target) are in fact exactly the type of creepy ass you guys are condemning. I think there's also a fair point to be made that making these types of comments without the intention of being overheard is also rude; this is why I likened it to gossiping. I'm not trying to excuse the behavior as much as I'm attempting to reframe it in a context that makes more sense than "men are attempting to control women via their sexiness".

xp: Laurel that is never, ever, ever going to happen.

idk if this is any consolation laurel, but men asking other men if you saw the ass on that one is still considered "not acceptable guy behavior" AFAIK, and it would never occur to many men (including myself) to do so in the first place.

Really, because that to me is normal polite behavior. It's the basic minimum in the workplace and among my social groups, and, as much as I can encourage it, in all my interactions w strangers for sure.

I feel like I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from Laurel on this somehow. The idea that I should feel guilty about basic animal instincts seems like the road to social dysfuntion and unhappiness. Should I be ashamed to be hungry or sleepy or to need to use the restroom? It's not shame one should feel but empathy for someone else wrt how someone else might perceive one's expressed desires. It's ok to lust after someone's ass. It's less okay to blurt it out to all and sundry without any kind of determination as to how the object of one's desires might feel about it, especially considering that they might very well feel threatened or just annoyed, and all and sundry might not want to be implicated in one's boorishness. Most of the time, if someone points out someone for the beauty, I find it annoying because I either already noticed, thank you kindly, and have no interest in 'sharing the moment' w/anyone, or don't care or am indifferent, or really don't want the moment spoiled by a blatantly socially inept person.

I need to recuse myself here, guys. This is making me really tired and sad and now I can't stop crying at work.

sorry hi dere, i didn't gloss over so much as i just don't think it matters in general what the goal is. but yes i misunderstood you.

I mean, if no-one ever dared be 'impolite' about declaring their interest or saying something w/o being 100% sure that the other party is receptive to it, very little would ever happen in the world. I beleive people have a right to express their opinions and a duty to their own dignity to express them as eloquently and effectively as possible and that goes just as much to the flirter as to the rejector. If someone I am not interested in flirts with me and pays me a compliment, I will politely respond with a glacial 'thank you' and if that's not enough I know how to escalate my verbal displeasure gradually and retain my personal right to dispassionately tell them to bugger off.

the title of this thread keeps making me think about "disgusting ass partner"

Observing someone's beauty is fine, Michael. However, when it comes to interacting with them, interact with them as a PERSON, not as an ass. Engage with them, open yourself up to them, don't approach them like a pitbull approaches a raw steak. I'm sure a man of your sophistication knows this already, but it bears repeating. It IS possible to have a libido and a sexual desire without being oppressive.

Also, sorry, Laurel, I'll just grab me coat.

what have I wrought :-/

It IS possible to have a libido and a sexual desire without being oppressive.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/sevenxviii/ThereISfeministpornyouknow.jpg

If someone I am not interested in flirts with me and pays me a compliment, I will politely respond with a glacial 'thank you' and if that's not enough I know how to escalate my verbal displeasure gradually and retain my personal right to dispassionately tell them to bugger off.

Wait before I go b/c I really do care about what MW means here: Michael, you can say that b/c their expressed attraction isn't threatening to you, you can not feel too rattled about it, one hopes, and can feel like the experience didn't really change the tone of your day.

A lot of that isn't true about unwelcome advances toward women, and I am NOT talking about the nice dorky guy at the bar, here, who tries to buy you a drink.

And it IS possible to flirt with someone, to initiate a discourse of flirtation, in the right circumstances, and with the right amount of mutual understanding! To crowbar that situation upon someone who doesn't want it is crass. Different people want different levels of discourse; that's a fact of life, but one is expected to be discerning.

LOL crutis

xp to self, continuing: When someone shows by their persistence that they're ignoring or not understanding any of your signals to them, what else are they going to misunderstand and ignore? Suddenly all bets are off, you don't have a comfort zone anymore, and you don't have any control over what happens next, everything has been escalated. This is where I think, "How much of a public disturbance am I willing to cause?" because I want to be prepared if that's what I have to do, no matter how embarrassing.