itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one

the WAY someone dresses etc

I don't know how you do it, kenan!

skip words while typing? What?

that was like both weirdly sweet natured and kind of grody?

Wow. You don't get a lot of "grody" anymore.

makin a comeback for sure

kind of grady

two women i know were groped on the street recently in two separate incidents :(

― mdskltr (blueski), Wednesday, December 2, 2009 8:05 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

That's awful. I was raped by an acquaintance while in college so I am no stranger to what it feels like to be violated in that way. However I don't feel constantly threatened. I don't know. This is all getting away from me now and I realize that I'm probably not making much sense and am sure I've contradicted myself more than once. It's a very very complex issue and this thread has taken about 20 different directions in one day.

Sorry to make everything about street harrassment, really I am. But that behavior is like a nanometer apart from the the orig poll. It's really all the same, the male bonding over a sex object. And while I appreciate that guys itt are saying they DO find ~that guy~ creepy and unacceptable, there was also a degree of reluctance to draw lines pointing to an overall set of views, in what is to me a painfully obvious connection.

Even if it's not as obv to everyone, it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, as even a little empathy & thought will show (and I think at this point everyone but some dorks here agrees) that they are related behaviors among SOME men.

Also trying to make the point that the set of related behaviors is widespread enough that the problem isn't really that guy, it's the whole atmosphere where that guy is funny or relatable or somehow a sympathtic, if still pathetic figure. And then it just got away from me, with all the attacks back and dismissals out of hand and so on.

kenan kinda has a point, although i personally find it quite easy to dismiss such thoughts. unless i see a hot woman dressed in full cricket whites reading modernist poetry and wearing a cardiacs t-shirt, i'm unlikely to do anything more than momentarily idle upon them, in a decided non-amorous manner. obviously sometimes one fantasises about people, and this can't be much helped, but you gotta be able to divorce this from reality

laurel i have been on yr side in this and i think ppl have been a bit quick to think yr attacking their own sexual impulses

yeah just to clarify, i agree, Laurel! i mean, the reason i immediately went to street harrassment is because my experience of this situation is obvs when the strange man says this loud enough so that "that one," namely me, hears it, at which point it is harrassment, even if at a low level.

OK but for a large section in the middle of the thread there was a big discussion where we were not talking about street harassment at all.

it's the whole atmosphere where that guy is funny or relatable or somehow a sympathtic, if still pathetic figure.

and yeah, i agree with this

Wow. You don't get a lot of "grody" anymore.

― Of course I want frosting. I'm a Scorpio. (kenan), Wednesday, December 2, 2009 7:11 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

RIP homosexual II

I really meant the stuff I said about myself, I do live like that, and most of the time a frosty exterior to the line-crossers and formal courtesy to others is enough to send the signal that I expect to be treated in kind. But I don't REALLY think about it this much until something like this thread happens, and then the magnitude of the incomprehension, purposeful or not, is just like wow how can we ever hope to change this?

thing is, tho, laurel, is that I honestly think that guy IS a sympathetic figure, no matter how despicable he's acting. ppl are sympathetic figures. but that is also why it might be better to not let that guys behavior slide? like if ppl are disenfranchised socially maybe taking them to task on offensive garbage they say will remind them that ppl actually give a shit?

Ok but not if they're driving the cab.

to clarify an earlier point that's stirred up all kinds of debate, i do think that thoughts (like taste as i've argued elsewhere) are sacrosanct. the right to think whatever we want is the most basic human right there is.

the problem with what some would call "bad thoughts", such as adulterous fantasies or relentless sexual objectification of strangers, is twofold:

1) the actions that might result (adultery, lewd behavior, etc.) are socially and/or personally unacceptable
2) the actions could not exist independent of the thought

i get that. but the temptation to blame the thought is troublesome to me. we can't fully control our thoughts, no matter how carefully we police them. we will sexually fantasize from time to time. we will be attracted to strangers due to their physical attributes. and if we're driven by such things, the fetishes, totems & kinks that compel us probably always will -- no matter how unacceptable they might be and no matter how much we might try to squash them. the trick therefore is not to eliminate "bad thoughts", but rather to forge an accommodation with our sexual selves that we can live with.

in a way i guess i'm arguing that we're all held hostage by our sexuality, to some degree or another. and that while our choices can be right or wrong, the unbidden thoughts that flash across our minds aren't really choices. we can react to them, reject them, push them aside in horror or shame, but that doesn't make them not there. and i'm therefore loathe to blame people for the flickerings that cross their minds, no matter how horrid the consequences might be were they to act on them.

Good post.

The difference between someone who regularly has those thoughts and someone who acts on them is the difference between someone who you reject as a friend candidate and someone who goes to prison.

Or you can choose to be their friend because they're interesting and essentially good-hearted.

Although point taken.

Your point is equally taken.

Good post.

― Nuyorican oatmeal (jaymc), Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:35 PM (57 minutes ago) Bookmark

Agreed and Jay, that is essentially what I was thinking when I posted about wanting to comment on the thing about not thinking sexual thoughts about children. I also could not figure out at the time how to do so without sounding like I was advocating pedophilia but I think that contenderizer has done a pretty great job of describing my attitude regarding what ppl might consider "bad thoughts".

'thoughts are sacrosanct' makes no sense. of course they are -- no one knows your thoughts. but goole's point, if im reading him right (& if so, then i agree) is that thoughts shape your worldview, and that being aware of how these thoughts are functioning, *why* they arise & how it might affect your outlook on the world, MATTERS & is worthy of ANALYSIS. simply backing up & saying "whoa whoa whoa -- these thoughts are sacrosanct!!" misses how thoughts work. They aren't a movie that flickers through your brain, they're your entire worldview, your natural reactions.

i started thinking twice about my own internal thoughts when Dan pointed out how no one really called Laurel dropping nbombs -- i mean, horseshoe & i questioned the thrust of the argument, comparing race & gender, but no one really stood up & said "hey -- that was kinda over the line" even if a lot of us *thought* it. So, when dan brought it up, it did make me rethink my perspective -- the idea that there is an acceptable amount of casual race talk that i let pass somewhat unspoken.

That is the kind of analysis i think goole is talking about

I think I agree with both you and contenderizer said. I don't even know anymore. Is that even possible? What was the question at hand? What's my name again?

i dont think anyone on this dam thread has said that some thoughts should be illegal but thats all anyone ever seems to hear

^^^

and frankly i think its weird that people think its at all controversial to say "some thoughts are not ok thoughts to have"

typical libs amirite

i can think of a lot of thoughts its not ok to have in your head

― max, Wednesday, December 2, 2009 4:32 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

yeah

haha "yeah"

wait are you saying that when i said "some thoughts are not ok" what i meant was "some thoughts should be illegal"?

yeah if you have a bad thought you must stop it!!!

yall

I guess it's a good thing that thoughts, until expressed, only belong to you. The scrutiny for victimless actions is harsh enough.

why so metaphysical yall

did you see the ~~~~thoughts~~~~ on that one

yeah it seems analogous to arguments i've had about porn where someone critiques aspects of it and another person argues, saying "well banning all pornography is a violation of freedom of expression and fascist to boot!" and it's like, when did i ever say i advocated banning pornography? it's not okay to point out some things about some pornography are fucked up?

nb i am kind of fascist tho :-/

there you go, now this thread is about porn, too

what happens if you imagine hypothetical ass

u have to get metaphysical to exist in the realm of defensive strawmen itt

people get hell of DEFENSIVE about this stuff!!! by "this stuff" i mean SEXXXXUALITY obviously. probably because we are all SCARED OF SEX secretly

haha i was trying to find that post of max's about porn from the nabisco discussion about how ppl arguing in relationships take ideas from movies but i couldnt find it

Max no, of course not but I don't think that anyone itt thought anyone actually said that some thoughts should be illegal. I *think* they were saying that when you start saying some thoughts are not OK to have that you might as well be saying they should be illegal.

did u guys know that it is actually impossible to have someone police your thoughts??

If there's no porn that you find offensive and fucked up, your filtering mechanism is underdeveloped.

ugh it is like--if i come in somewhere and am like "yall there are some words that are not ok to say," i dont think anyone would be like "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING CENSOR--KILL YOURSELF FACIST" but the minute the word "thoughts" comes into play everyone gets all 1984

i have had a few thoughts which i have regretted and have censured myself for - fortunately i am pretty tolerant w/ non-harmful predilections so most stuff sails on by with a twitch of the eyebrow