itt a strange man asks if you saw the ass on that one

one thing that happened is that "as long as their hearts were in the right place" was no longer an acceptable excuse for racism or sexism

― max, Friday, December 4, 2009 10:59 AM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark

again, not that it's an entirely bad thing.

you are cuckoo

Que you can't say that, it's unacceptable

the other thing that i think youre missing is that political correctness didnt grow out of some... re-entrenchment by out-of-power liberals--much of it is people of color and women growing to increasingly prominent positions in politics, entertainment and academia, and therefore being allowed more power in shaping discourse in this country

― max, Friday, December 4, 2009 11:02 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

nevertheless feel that what was lost was of value. or at least potentially of value.

"what we lost" being the ability for white people to be unthinking dicks?

rip white dicks

what was lost? what would you like to say that you can't anymore? yeah xpost

that's true. but it also became unacceptable (or at least much more socially dangerous) to naively voice ideas that might conceivably sound racist or sexist or depraved or whatever, in an attempt to come to a better understanding of things. and i think that's sad. i think it's cost us a small part of our ability to honestly understand and accept ourselves, as individuals and as a culture.
again, not that it's an entirely bad thing.

― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, December 4, 2009 2:04 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok i really have no clue what youre talking about here, i cant actually think of a situation where the kind of statement that would be externally 'policed' or shouted down or whatever would contribute to a better understanding of our culture

i really enjoy my right to tell people expressing hateful ideas to stfu

i'm still having trouble with this, c -- it kinda sounds like you're lamenting the erosion of the type of social privilege that sexist, racist, or homophobic utterances serve and exploit.

As I said upthread, not being stingy with apologies when you offend someone goes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way back towards opening discourse back up; the bigger issue I see is that society has taken the tack of turning apologies into something that automatically invalidates whatever you were trying to say.

i think you are saying that i find more things offensive than you do? maybe?

one must consider, for just a moment, the suggest ban

*considers*

thought-google (censored) and find contenderizer

I think cdtdzr has been pretty cool actually itt, I just wanted to say that. Not agreeing or disagreeing with the current discussion, but kudos for being a good discusser and actually thinkin baout stuff.

kudos, contenderizer, for mourning an era where white people could be racists without fear. kudos indeed.

Has he said anything about white people? Or non-white people? Maybe I'm missing the subtext but I'm not getting what you guys are (apparently) getting from his posts.

but it also became unacceptable (or at least much more socially dangerous) to naively voice ideas that might conceivably sound racist or sexist or depraved or whatever, in an attempt to come to a better understanding of things. and i think that's sad. i think it's cost us a small part of our ability to honestly understand and accept ourselves, as individuals and as a culture.

the subtext i get is it's hard for white men to express themselves honestly anymore

it's hard out here for a cracker

and white women too sometimes

all of these negative responses seem predicated on the idea that there is a TRUTH. a fundamental way that people should be and do and think. and that anyone who violates the boundaries of this truth is an "unthinking dick". and i reject that. i'm not trying to make the case that sexism and racism are acceptable, but rather that liberalism has hardened into a rigid othodoxy that sneers at the idea that there might even be value in the discussion of certain issues. we're expected to know what's right, to condemn the wrong, and to shut up about ideas or questions that don't satisfy those marching orders.

i personally don't feel the need to unburden myself of anything. but i am nostalgic for a more tolerant, open, and humane liberalism - one that understood that not all people are at the same place and time in their heads, and that was more concerned with forging compassionate consensus than with outing and castigating people with the wrong ideas. or at least equally concerned with both.

i would also throw in the heteros, they are often shouted down for expressing themselves

xpost to myself

so contenderizer, did you just not read what I said about apologies or what

contenderizer, can you give even one example of a specific 'thing' that ppl would say that only gets responses of 'sneering at the idea that there might even be value in the discussion' of?

thread tipping point^^^

but rather that liberalism has hardened into a rigid othodoxy that sneers at the idea that there might even be value in the discussion of certain issues.

i think this might be true of "liberalism" but yeah there are some things people really should know and not expect others to tolerate them just because they're just learning how to be respectful

Yeah, that is confusing to me and I thikn he's got the wrong end of that discussion, and I disagreed w him on small points through the rest of this thing too, but he hasn't made any jerky attacks and has been willing to talk things out throughout. Big points for simply not acting like an asshole, imo, which is more than I can say for some people on here that I probably agree with about more things.

dnftt

lol xpost i guess i'm one of the assholes

God no, what?? Shut up, hs, that's not even possible.

contenderizer u need 2 play more on line video games if u think there is anything, at all, ever that ppl are reluctant to think or say in this modern society

I think really horrible disgusting immoral inhumane bizarre misanthropic insane things all the time but they're always fleeting and I never spend more than a second dwelling on them and I never act on them. I don't think it's much of a problem. Or am I nuts?

i think what he means is that in certain circles ppl have become much more conscious abt doing an internal check to see whether something is racist/sexist/whatever and may be modifying their speech accordingly. i struggle to come up w/situations where we lose something via this exercise; it may occasionally lead to awkward expression of thoughts but hey it's essentially training so these things happen.

I dunno, Crut! That conversation was where the thread got rly intersting to me again, but I think that kind of judgment is really not for the public to make and not on the lol-internet.

no crut i do too, it's cool

but i am nostalgic for a more tolerant, open, and humane liberalism - one that understood that not all people are at the same place and time in their heads, and that was more concerned with forging compassionate consensus than with outing and castigating people with the wrong ideas. or at least equally concerned with both.

lol

and cntdrzr if you think modern liberalism is intolerant then uh i'd love to know what you think of actually intolerant political philosophies

so i don't understand how having less tolerance for statements that enact or celebrate (straight/white/male) privilege is any loss whatsoever tbrfh

i would say there is an issue where ppl are NOT in fact self-analyzing their own prejudices/assumptions/thought processes, but in fact are just keeping them quiet, where as in the past ppl used to trumpet such ignorance, & you could say that something has been 'lost' in this transition (or at least, things have def *changed*) but that wasnt really what was being discussed in this thread

If anything, I wd advocate for practicing mental discipline, I guess. Not that you CAN'T think things, but that there's a time and place, and it's not, for instance, while you're standing in front of someone talking to them. B/c as much as you owe THEM a fair conversation or interaction that isn't colored by your secksy thoughts, you also owe yourself an interaction that tries to see them for their ideas & contributions and not their slammin' ass.

Just for instance?

deej i think we're saying some of the same thing--ppl check what they SAY, not what they THINK

i.e., racist white pplz are more likely to keep racisty thoughts to themselves, which is in many ways a positive in that keeping your offensive ignorance to yourself is better than constantly contributing to a negative atmosphere, although not as much of a positive as if they analyzed racisty feelings & learned why those feelings were rong & dangerous. and in some ways 'something is lost' in that ppl are being extremely dishonest

i would say there is an issue where ppl are NOT in fact self-analyzing their own prejudices/assumptions/thought processes

i think this is very true but def doesn't require them to say racist, etc. stuff, obviously. a lot of people who are pointing out racism and sexism all the time have this problem imo

oh absolutely

deej i think we're saying some of the same thing--ppl check what they SAY, not what they THINK

right, and they do that because offending someone warrants stoning and apologizing means you are 100% wrong

fight the real enemy imo; have the dialogue and forgive someone when they say sorry as opposed to second-guessing them and you'll be a happier person (and so will the person you're talking to)

the subtext i get is it's hard for white men to express themselves honestly anymore

― harbl, Friday, December 4, 2009 11:19 AM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's hard out here for a cracker

― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, December 4, 2009 11:20 AM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark

but yr only gonna find that subtext if yr looking for it. i've said no such thing. i don't see why "white men" would suffer the burden of this relative rigidity more than anyone else. my primary objection is to certainty, rigidity and orthodoxies, and my position is more philosophical than personal. i'm endorsing (and in a way mourning the passing of) a tolerance that sought to built bridges between people/ideas/cultures as a solution to ignorance & intolerance. at the same time, i'm not denying the corollary power & validity of righteous intolerance.

it bums me out that so many people would be so quick to mock and scold me for voicing these ideas. i've tried to treat the subject and everyone involved in this discussion with respect (again, apologies to HI DERE), and i'd like to think that was a two-way street.

a tolerance that sought to built bridges between people/ideas/cultures as a solution to ignorance & intolerance.

yeah when did this exist again?