imo it's bullshit to say that existed in the 60s
― omaha deserved 311 (call all destroyer), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link
i would say there is an issue where ppl are NOT in fact self-analyzing their own prejudices/assumptions/thought processes, but in fact are just keeping them quiet, where as in the past ppl used to trumpet such ignorance, & you could say that something has been 'lost' in this transition (or at least, things have def *changed*) but that wasnt really what was being discussed in this thread― ice cr?m hand job (deej), Friday, December 4, 2009 11:27 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark
― ice cr?m hand job (deej), Friday, December 4, 2009 11:27 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark
baseline cultural message now is more like "don't say anything that even vaguely suggests you are thinking any of the 1,000 taboo items on this comprehensive list, ever, under any circumstance." and i think it kills honest discourse. i think people hide their feelings and prejudices, lie about them, and don't "examine them".
i accept that it's probably a consequence of a much greater good, but it's still interesting to think about from other perspectives. imo.
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link
btw contenderizer one problem with what youre saying is--removing race from the occasion--that its the responsibility of the person who is offended to forgive and educate the person who offended them, and not, instead, the responsibility of the person who did the offending to apologize and educate their dam selves
― max, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link
we live in different cultures i think????
― Lamp, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:42 (fourteen years ago) link
but yr only gonna find that subtext if yr looking for it. i've said no such thing. i don't see why "white men" would suffer the burden of this relative rigidity more than anyone else.
i assumed this because you didn't say specifically what kinds of statements are not allowed that you wish were allowed (yes of course i would add people other than white men). if you mean people can't say what's their favorite food without feeling ashamed then yes, it would apply to everyone.
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:43 (fourteen years ago) link
xp yeah that really feels like it applies to the nations small enclaves of privileged "liberal" white ppl only
― omaha deserved 311 (call all destroyer), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:44 (fourteen years ago) link
c, to be honest with you, i think the nostalgic element of your argument is getting in the way of your argument -- besides not really understanding when this golden age of "tolerating intolerance" actually existed, it's reading like a reactionary yearning for the "good old days" even if that's not your intent.
― elmo leonard (elmo argonaut), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:45 (fourteen years ago) link
― max, Friday, December 4, 2009 2:39 PM (4 minutes ago)
v otm
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:45 (fourteen years ago) link
this thread is kind of mindblowing, kudos to the calm discoursive participants
― WmC, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:45 (fourteen years ago) link
of course a utopian state of tolerant openness never really existed. but it WAS a big part of baseline liberal philosophy in america - evolving in the late 60s and becoming widespread (orthodox) in the 70s. and receding in the 80s/90s.
or at least that's how it seemed to me... (comment about how it existed and still exists in "elementary schools" is perhaps more otm than i want to admit.)
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:46 (fourteen years ago) link
tbh i think you gotta separate that rhetoric from how people were actually acting.
― omaha deserved 311 (call all destroyer), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:47 (fourteen years ago) link
it's reading like a reactionary yearning for the "good old days" even if that's not your intent.
I think that people are reading this into contenderizer's argument and that's not really where he's coming from. He's trying to say that it's holding us back from being a more vibrant, open, progressive, accepting culture that has yet to exist. I think.
xps
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:48 (fourteen years ago) link
Like we were making headway towards something and then backslid. Not a place where white men ruled, but a place where you could express your love of flogging - if that's your thing - and people wouldn't look down on you for it.
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:49 (fourteen years ago) link
The flogging-acceptable place never existed, I'm pretty sure.
a place where you could express your love for slavery--if that's your thing--and people wouldn't look down on you for it
― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:50 (fourteen years ago) link
slavery lol XP!!!!
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:50 (fourteen years ago) link
: )
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:51 (fourteen years ago) link
I've heard there is a place on 5th & Spring where people do this
― pash rules everything around me (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:51 (fourteen years ago) link
But no, really. A place where someone could go to a person of their preferred gender and be like "Hey, whips and chains" and that person could be free to be all like "Yes, I'm consensual" or "No, sorry, that's not my thing."
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link
craigslist.org
― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:53 (fourteen years ago) link
gay bar
― pash rules everything around me (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:54 (fourteen years ago) link
btw contenderizer one problem with what youre saying is--removing race from the occasion--that its the responsibility of the person who is offended to forgive and educate the person who offended them, and not, instead, the responsibility of the person who did the offending to apologize and educate their dam selves― max, Friday, December 4, 2009 2:39 PM (4 minutes ago)
i think that it IS the responsibility of offended people to forgive, educate and understand - to the extent possible, depending on the nature of the offense. and sure, i think it's the responsibility of those who offend to apologize, learn and understand. basically, everyone is obliged to give one another the benefit of the doubt and to treat one another with a measure of compassionate open-mindedness.
understand that this argument only makes sense when the point of offense/contention is relatively minor. not saying that we should always smile and try to understand those who abuse and oppress us.
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:54 (fourteen years ago) link
no i really disagree with that
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:56 (fourteen years ago) link
giving people the benefit of the doubt is important but not everyone's opinions are equivalent
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 19:58 (fourteen years ago) link
not everyone's opinions are important either
― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, 4 December 2009 19:59 (fourteen years ago) link
definitely not
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:00 (fourteen years ago) link
also:
agree that what i'm saying DOES seem to square with the "political correctness has gone TOO FAR!!!" arguments you hear on fox, and with the sort of things that poor sad white mans supposedly say now that they don't entirely run the whole game. in idealizing a bygone moment that never really existed, i'm giving in to the fundamental conservative impulse. so i'll take all punches on that score.
but i'd like to think that kingkonggodzilla's right, and that what i'm doing is looking forward for a way out of the deadlocked, polarized, endlessly outraged culture war that we seem to have locked ourselves into.
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:00 (fourteen years ago) link
contenderizer you keep discussing this on a level of abstraction that doesn't exist so it's all kind of shrug
― horseshoe, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link
You can't promote tolerance in those who are intolerant by being dismissive and intolerant yourself.
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link
i feel a lot less outrage when i don't spend all my time educating people on how they should treat me but ymmv!
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link
OTM x 1000%
― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:01 (fourteen years ago) link
iving people the benefit of the doubt is important but not everyone's opinions are equivalent― harbl, Friday, December 4, 2009 11:58 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
― harbl, Friday, December 4, 2009 11:58 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
note that offense exists everywhere. christians get offended by gay pda's. bigots get offended by the suggestion that their race is not superior. being offended doesn't mean that you don't have to try and understand.
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link
"offended people are NOT necessarily any more correct"
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:04 (fourteen years ago) link
everytime i see this thread title i get "ass like that" by eminem in my head, goddamn it.
― Mountain Dewm (M@tt He1ges0n), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link
that is so unfortunate
― horseshoe, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link
why don't you do us all a favor c., and give us a specific concrete example of what you're talking about instead of speaking in abstractions
― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link
contenderizer you keep discussing this on a level of abstraction that doesn't exist so it's all kind of shrug― horseshoe, Friday, December 4, 2009 12:01 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
― horseshoe, Friday, December 4, 2009 12:01 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:06 (fourteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGz6oIm6jhk
― pash rules everything around me (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:07 (fourteen years ago) link
i'm curious about examples of offended responses to someone saying something racist that are morally equivalent or "just as wrong/right" as the latter.
― omar little, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:07 (fourteen years ago) link
otoh "tolerating the intolerant" opens the door to many frustrating and fruitless discussions that don't get anywhere. for example, if i had to honor someone's earnestly-held opinion that it's ok to abide by stereotypes because they exist "for a reason" i would probably spend the entire discussion wishing for death.
― elmo leonard (elmo argonaut), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link
why don't you do us all a favor c., and give us a specific concrete example of what you're talking about instead of speaking in abstractions― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, December 4, 2009 12:05 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark
― jazzgasms (Mr. Que), Friday, December 4, 2009 12:05 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:10 (fourteen years ago) link
now where have I seen many frustrating and fruitless discussions that don't get anywhere before?
― pash rules everything around me (Curt1s Stephens), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:11 (fourteen years ago) link
the internet?
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:12 (fourteen years ago) link
i'm curious about examples of offended responses to someone saying something racist that are morally equivalent or "just as wrong/right" as the latter.― omar little, Friday, December 4, 2009 12:07 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
― omar little, Friday, December 4, 2009 12:07 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
but it's easy to perceive offense in situations that aren't so cut-and-dried offensive. e.g. "niggardly", resulting shitstorms, etc. my only point was that to feel as though one has been offended does not automatically mean that the offending party has done anything wrong.
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:14 (fourteen years ago) link
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091202044731AASWipb
― velko, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:21 (fourteen years ago) link
wrong thread lol
― velko, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:22 (fourteen years ago) link
thing is, I can easily see how ~this guy~ would not understand how he was being offensive, or sexist, or threatening. getting offensive people to cop to their own offensiveness is a losing battle ime.
― elmo leonard (elmo argonaut), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link
dude you're the one stacking the deck! you're being so abstract that if anything comes up that could show your arguments are absurd you can go "oh no i didn't mean that" because you never specify what you do mean. anyway i gotta go thanks man see u
― harbl, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:27 (fourteen years ago) link
did u see the stack on that deck
― velko, Friday, 4 December 2009 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link
gimme a minute to come up with something...
― a dimension that can only be accessed through self-immolation (contenderizer), Friday, December 4, 2009 2:10 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
the fact that you have no examples makes it really hard to understand why you're even arguing this
― ice cr?m hand job (deej), Friday, 4 December 2009 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link