Radical Feminism: Discuss

But its those who never DO get there - those who for whatever reason are denied a chance at a better education - that are left out when it all goes theoretical.

Feminism would have to be the most boring topic to ever arrive on ILX. Lets get back to talking about sex - at least it's a bit exciting and imaginative.

I'm not so sure - the fact of two sexes is the condition of possibility for its existence, true, but in a very broad sense its operation is quite similar to the way in which oppression of race/culture, animals and the environment work in that it follows the operation of platonic dualism (ie. a binary opposition wherein each side of the binary is presupposed to *totally* opposed and different to the other, and one has to instrumentalise the other). Thus it is our mode of thinking about the *world* which encourages us to entrench gender inequality.

I guess I'm very swayed by eco-feminisists wrt this line of argument.

What people who do this then do is read other oppressions as a subset (I use the word deliberately this time) of the one they're interested in, which can be useful up to a point but then very quickly becomes distorting. I guess my beef is with the idea of there being a heirarchy of oppressions, when I would argue that what *is* common among different forms of oppression (eg. platonic dualism) never finds a pure expression of itself anywhere. It can only be seen in the various individual manifestations oppression but is not originally *derived* from any one form.

A lot of radical feminists I used to know would insist that the "root" of all oppression was gender oppression; likewise a lot of marxists would say the same vis a vis class oppression. I would contend that the "root" of oppression is always absent, invisibly shaping different oppressions because it is entrenched in language and consciousness rather than in any *particular* social or interpersonal operation of opression.

BECAUSE I can't smile when my girlfriends are dying inside. We are dying inside and we never even touch each other; we are supposed to hate each other.

BECAUSE we need to talk to each other. Communication/inclusion is the key. We will never know if we don't break the code of silence.

BECAUSE we are being divided by our labels and philosophies, and we need to accept and support each other as girls; acknowledging our different approaches to life and accepting all of them as valid.

BECAUSE I need laughter and I need girl love. We need to build lines of communication so we can be more open and accessible to each other.

BECAUSE we need to acknowledge that our blood is being spilt; that right now a girl is being raped or battered and it might be you or your mom or the girl you sat next to on the bus last Tuesday, and she might be dead by the time you finish reading this. I am not making this up.

BECAUSE we will never meet the hierarchical BOY standards of talented, cool, or smart. They are created to keep us out, and if we ever meet them they will change, or we will become tokens.

BECAUSE in every form of media I see us/myself slapped, decapitated, laughed at, objectified, raped, trivialized, pushed, ignored, stereotyped, kicked, scorned, molested, silenced, invalidated, knifed, shot, choked, and killed.

BECAUSE I am tired of these things happening to me; I'm not a fuck toy, I'm not a punching bag, I'm not a joke.

BECAUSE I am still fucked up, I am still dealing with internalized racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, etc., and I don't want to do it alone.

BECAUSE I see the connectedness of all forms of oppression and I believe we need to fight them with this awareness.

BECAUSE a safe space needs to be created for girls where we can open our eyes and reach out to each other without being threatened by this sexist society and our day to day bullshit.

by Erika Reinstein, editor of Fantastic Fanzine; as printed in Riot Grrrl NYC #2, 1992

BECAUSE every time we pick up a pen, or an instrument, or get anything done, we are creating the revolution. We ARE the revolution.

BECAUSE us girls crave records and books and fanzines that speak to US that WE feel included in and can understand in our own ways.

BECAUSE we wanna make it easier for girls to see/hear each other's work so that we can share strategies and criticize-applaud each other.

BECAUSE we must take over the means of production in order to create our own meanings.

BECAUSE viewing our work as being connected to our girlfriends-politics-real lives is essential if we are gonna figure out how we are doing impacts, reflects, perpetuates, or DISRUPTS the status quo.

BECAUSE we recognize fantasies of Instant Macho Gun Revolution as impractical lies meant to keep us simply dreaming instead of becoming our dreams AND THUS seek to create revolution in our own lives every single day by envisioning and creating alternatives to the bullshit christian capitalist way of doing things.

BECAUSE we don't wanna assimilate to someone else's (boy) standards of what is or isn't cool.

BECAUSE we are unwilling to falter under claims that we are reactionary "reverse sexists" AND NOT THE TRUEPUNKROCK-SOULCRUSADERS THAT WE KNOW we really are.

BECAUSE we know that life is much more than physical survival and are patently aware that the punk rock "you can do anything" idea is crucial to the coming angry grrrl rock revolution that seeks to save the psychic and cultural lives of girls and women everywhere, according to their terms, not ours.

BECAUSE we are interested in creating non-hierarchical ways of being AND making music, friends, and scenes based on communication + understanding, instead of competition + good/bad categorizations.

BECAUSE doing/reading/seeing/hearing cool things that validate and challenge us can help us gain strength and the sense of community that we need in order to figure out how bullshit like racism, able-bodyism, ageism, speciesism, classism, thinism, anti-Semitism, and heterosexism figures in our own lives.

BECAUSE we see fostering and supporting girl scenes and girl artists of all kinds as integral to this process.

BECAUSE we hate capitalism in all its forms and see our main goal as sharing information and staying alive, instead of making profits or being cool according to traditional standards.

BECAUSE we are angry at a society that tells us Girl=Dumb, Girl=Bad, Girl=Weak.

BECAUSE we are unwilling to let our real and valid anger be diffused and/or turned against us via the internalization of sexism as witnessed in girl/girl jealousism and self-defeating girltype behaviors.

BECAUSE I believe with my wholeheartmindbody that girls constitute a revolutionary soul force that can, and will, change the world for real.

from Bikini Kill #2, Olympia, WA circa 1992
(as reprinted in Rosenberg and Garofalo 1998)

(Spice Girls, dunno when)

Am I doing something right, or wrong, or...?

I get up to the front and kick arse in moshpits. I smoke, I wear jeans, I sit with my legs apart. I call boys up and ask them out on dates. I initiate sex. I tell off my boss if I think he's being a sexist prick. I can talk to my male and my female friends about any feeling or thought without feeling "weird". I walk the streets alone at night with CAUTION instead of FEAR - and it seems to work. I live alone and I work hard and I manage fine (mostly). I can admit it when I am vulnerable, and ask for a cuddle and cup of tea and not think it is "weak" or "wrong".

I refuse to be a fucking victim.

Race oppression is not a subset of gender oppression, because there are black people who are not women.

Gender oppression is not a subset of race oppression, because there are women who are not black.

Can someone explain this?

I wanna be more like Trayce.

Side note - orbit, do you know where there archives of early grrrl zines on the web?

Hi! This is the Riot Grrrl Review website!

This site is always kind of fucked up, full of typos, and I post the reviews
late. I am either too busy or too lazy to fix it. This is how it is. Deal.

To see the zine reviews from #2, go here.
To see the zine reviews from #3, go here.
To see the zine reviews from #4, go here.
To see the music reviews, go here.
#1 is out of print, sorry. It's way old, anyway.

Riot Grrrl Review has been on hiatus for a year now, but I'm getting back
into the swing of things. I am going to be in Chicago during May and June
and will be traveling around in July. #5 has been in the works; I work on it
when my schedule/life permits. Thanks for your patience.

Please send me your zines, music, comics, etc. for review, and I will review
them. For those of you unfamiliar with my reviewing policy, Riot Grrrl
Review is for women and girls. Boys can send their zines for consideration,
and I will review what I feel is relevent and list what I like if I don't
see much relevence. I know this is somewhat of a controversial policy.
Suggestions are welcome, but I still do things at my discretion. If you send
material for review, make sure your address and price is on the cover. Send
it to me at Kristy Chan, USF 30334, 4202 E. Fowler Ave., Tampa, FL
33620-3033. The old Fort Myers address is NOT good. I live in Tampa now and
am trying to get everyone to start using the Tampa box.

Classifieds and project listings are coming one day. And so are links that I
owe to all the wonderful webgirls that have linked my site to theirs. I am
really grateful and no one would come here if it wasn't for them, and to
whoever got me listed in Yahoo! where my site comes up

first

when you type in "riot grrrl", THANK YOU!

Oh yeah, I'm actually doing a thank you list here... Thanks in random order
to Mimi Ilano, Matt Wobensmith, Mimi Nguyen, Ericka Bailie, Lauren Martin,
Seth Bogus, Christina Varner, Theresa Mitten, Sarah Gion, Ocean Capewell,
Sarah C. in England, Tamra of Lucid Nation, Ceci Moss, Kelli Williams,
Bianca Ortiz, Laurie Chan, Mike Mitchell, Allison Dority, John Paree, Jen
Wolfe, Asian Takeover boys and girls, Barbie girls, and anyone I forgot -
I'm sorry my memory is so crappy.

Okay, the contest is over. I will announce the winner when I get my shit
together, and give that person their prize, a bag of candy. If you actually
give a shit, the songs are "Whip It" by Devo, "True Colors" by Cyndi Lauper,
the "Bewitched" theme song, "James Bond" theme song, "Violet" by Hole, and
um. I can't think of the rest right now. MIDIs are really dumb, but I love
them, so I'm not taking them off!

Oh yeah, I guess I should plug my shit.. I have a personal zine called
Tennis and Violins. I wrote it last winter when I was really depressed alot.
Some people love it and some people think it's annoying. It has journal
entries, some opinions and stories about racism, classism, being queer, um..
also interviews with Ceci Moss and Matt Outpunk. You can get it in the mail
from me for a few stamps or money or a letter. Whatever you can afford. I
guess it costs me between 65 cents to $1 to make and send each one. Don't
even ask if you can read it on the web or in email because it won't happen.
Tennis and Violins #2 is going to be a split with Suburbia zine by Ceci.
It's going to be 100 pages. My half has travel stories, art/photos, Barbie
stories, an interview with Rachel Carns (the Need, Kicking Giant), and lots
of other stuff. Keep your eyes open for that. I also did a zine called Wild
Honey Pie when I was in high school and middle school. #9 has an interview
with Allison Wolfe (Bratmobile), artsy stuff, info, its kind of random, but
all of it is good reading, I think. It costs $1. #10 is giant, like full
size, a zillion pages. It's $2, and it has interviews with Mark Robinson
(Unrest), Larry Livermore (Lookout!), Wynona Riders (Berkeley punk),
Pietasters (D.C. ska. They're kind of dumb, oh well.), and Dick Lucas (the
singer from Subhumans). Also a shitload of articles and personal writing.
Seth from Puberty Strike likes it!

I also want to encourage you to contribute to these projects I am working
on...
ASIAN TAKEOVER - I am compiling a zine by Asian people about racism,
identity, history, assimilation, etc. This is real. I am going to put this
out. I have already gotten a substantial amount of material, but you can
send stuff in while I'm too busy to print this sucker. Send me your art,
photos, text, poetry, life story.
100 BARBIE GIRLS CAN'T BE WRONG! - Answer this question - How did you play
with your Barbie dolls?

Read about me and my many obsessions.
Mimi does this ace site with Asian/Pacific Islander American feminist
resources, her solid critiques of punk, material she reads, etc. This is not
something you want to miss.
Ericka does Pander zine distro and the ever-amazing Power Candy zine, about
her life, mental illness, all sorts of things. Both very cool projects.
Mike is a friend of mine. His page is about punk and stuff.
Russell has a site about comics, Bis, and teen DIY projects.
Sign My Guestbook but keep in mind that I just check it for comments, and if
you want a reply, I recommend e-mailing me, instead. This is also a good
place to plug your shit or start dialogue until I figure out how to make a
message board or something like that, if that's what you want to do.
View My Guestbook
e-mail me
You are visitor number [Image] since Feb. 27, 1997. Wow!

anti©opyright 1998

Ironically, I have been known to be more intimidated by other women, but thats more to do with being bullied by them in school, and betrayed by female friends later in life. But I'm over all that now anyway.

Well I didn't have a Ken doll, they had to make do SOMEhow!

point being it's more complex than you were giving it credit for, that's all/

In what way is it more complex? You can't leave a statement like that hanging unqualified.

Many variants of radical feminism however, strive towards what is called "equalism", meaning different groups plat an equal part on decisionmaking and self-determination. The emphasis is on dialog between and among different interest groups to arrive at a concensus. It's not always a comfortable process, but what is being sought is a world that is constructed to take the needs of all kinds of people into account.

Feminism has a part to play where gender inequality is significant, but in western societies we are past that stage in our development. Yes some inequalities remain but society is generally aware and concerns itself with eradicating these inequalities. Gender inequality and even racial inequalities are far less significant than class and economic inequalities. Scoop everyone up from the bottom, and if there are more disadvantaged women, or blacks or whatever then you will scoop up more women blacks or whatever.

In striving foe equality why restrict your group to 50% of the population, smells like sexism to me.

I do disagree with you statement that experiences across gender are common. They are not. You never got your first period, You never had a perv grab your tits. You never had to wonder was that guy looking at your chest or at you. Experiences are different, When I walk into a room and there is a porn mag on the table it affects me differently from how it affects you because I am female and have grown up in a sexist society. I could go on for pages, but the experience of growing up a boy is very different from growing up a girl, This is old territory, its been covered a million times, and no one disputes it any more. I am not trying to be dismissive, and after I've had some sleep I could post a reading list or something and we could pick up the conversation later if you are interested.

In some cases, in fact, they've worsened social attitudes. I can only really speak for the UK educational system, but there's a big problem there with the fact that girls tend to do better than boys in Key Stage SATs, GCSEs, and A-Levels (although at University there's, I believe, a reversal). There are scads of measures in place to increase boys' attainment, but meanwhile many working-class young men aren't getting the best jobs they potentially could have because women are often better qualified. Which leads to more resentment, and more disenfranchisement of working-class males, and that's surely counter-productive.

I've got some stuff to do today but I will get back to this point later.

(x-post)

I’ll give an example of ‘restrict groups by gender’ (though I don’t know if it’s the sort of thing Ed was talking about).
This weekend I’m going to Ladyfest Manchester and one of the workshops I’d really like to go to, in fact the only one I really want to go to is a drumming workshop which I’m banned from because I’m not a girl!
I’m semi-furious, I pay exactly the same as everyone who can go.

I think they want to keep out men cause they think they might make it intimidating for the women, but I’m easily intimidated too.
I can kind of see where they’re coming from but I wanna go!
*throws rattle*.

Practically, what should I do? Is there anything I can do?

I think experiences are broadly common though there are differences.
I never got my first period but I did have a first wet dream; I never had a ‘perv’ grab my tits but I did have a (female) ‘perv’ grab my bottom; I never wondered was a guy looking at my chest (which would be part of me) but I’ve wondered was someone looking at my puppy fat.

When I walk into a room and see a porn mag on a table it effect me different to how it effects you because we are different PEOPLE, not because we are different sexes/genders. I’m interested in porn mags than most men I know. I know several women who really do like porn.

How do you know the experience of growing up a boy is so different to your own experience? When did YOU grow up a boy?

-- Andrew Thames (cleanbridge...), September 2nd, 2003.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

GRRRRR!!!
Anyway, I’m only going so I can cure me some Lesbians!

Have you not learned anything from sitcoms, mei?

-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 2nd, 2003.

What, you mean I should dress up as a woman and sneak in?
Hmmm. That might help me with the lesbians too...

(Humour Alert – I AM JOKING)

Meant to say I'm LESS interested in porn mags than most men.

I'm not saying I don't like pornography at all, but the realy artificial stuff I've seen in mags, with it's participants obviously not enjoying it, isn't a big turn on.