HEALTHCARE THREAD

eh i actually dont mind getting into the relative merits of the obama administration (so far: c+/b-, like this bill--and this thread), what i hate is the "if obama had only done this, we would all have universal health care" or whatever, because, you know, how the hell can you argue against that

for one thing, if obama had "insisted" on something better than the senate bill we started with, it doesn't follow that it would be in better shape now. those with a more pessimistic attitude about the president seem to have much greater faith in the power of his insistence than i do. it's not even clear yet whether this version of the senate bill will make it, for fuck's sake.

i'm completely convinced that this is the best deal possible. i think a better deal would have been killed. i think clinton's plan in 93 was probably better. note that we do not have that plan in place. i think this plan will rein in insurance companies, but yeah, give them a whole new captive customer base (aren't we all), and it will not go hard enough on pharmaceutical companies. apparently they cut a deal early. i wonder if the room was smoke-filled.

but i'm somewhat surprised that those on this thread with ahem greater cynicism about political life aren't, in the end, happier with this outcome. do you think that if this president had taken on pharma, and insurance, and the elderly lobby, and the rump GOP, and the mushy pro-life right edge of his own party, all at once, he would have won? in this country? no, he would have lost. it would have been over for another 30 years.

^^ my man

i don't really see this as obama's failure, but congress's. that's who i'm fucking pissed at.

But if my sister was getting punched in the face by a gang of 10 thugs and I could make a deal so that only 3 thugs were punching her in the face instead, and that was my only alternative for the next 10 years, I'd vote for that too. "yay."

^^^lol love this analogy

and sure it seems like some good regs are coming in but my god, they're of the "insurance companies don't have the right to walk into your home and blow your fucking head off" variety. which of course is important, you know, but.. i guess this is what you get when you start from so far behind. it takes months of momumental agonizing just to go from F to D+.

So is the mandate still in? Cos I haven't paid much close attention to this is weeks but it seems like that is the one thing both parties would definitely agree on (via their HMO lobbyists).

it takes months of momumental agonizing just to go from F to D+.

not just that, but everyone goes home mad feeling like they lost

apparently they cut a deal early. i wonder if the room was smoke-filled.

Of course it was! That way the dealmakers would have to pay for chemo and cancer therapy in fifteen years.

“The Senate version is not worth passing,” former Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean told POLITICO, referring to plans to strip the latest compromise from the bill, a Medicare buy-in. “I think in this particular iteration, this is the end of the road for reform.”

Dean said there are some good elements in the bill, but lawmakers should pull the plug and revisit the issue in Obama’s second term, unless Democrats are willing to shortcut a GOP filibuster. “No one will think this is health care reform. This is not even insurance reform,” he said.

in Obama’s second term

smh

yeah I lol'd at that too.

more goodies:

“There is a growing sense that we’re lifting more than our share,” says California Rep. Xavier Becerra, a member of the Democrats’ leadership team in the House. “Members are hoping the Senate will kick into gear because the public expects a lot more to get done.”

• “Sometimes I get the feeling that some of those guys [in the Senate] just like to see their names in the paper and see their faces on TV,” says Massachusetts Rep. Jim McGovern.

• “I talk a lot about the psychology of consensus,” says House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.). “Too often, it appears, that the psychology in the Senate is the psychology of one.”

• “When it comes to a jobs bill, the Senate seems more interested in dithering,” says first-year Rep. Tom Perriello, a Virginia Democrat whohas taken heat back home for tough votes on climate change and health care — two issues that remain bottled up in slow-moving Senate deliberations.

• “If you just take a look at the number of bills we’ve sent to the Senate and what they’ve done, I don’t know what they’re doing with their time honestly,” says Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Cal.). <<my hero, love ya Zoe

• “I think the majority leader sometimes has to have the leadership to resolve these things,” says Pennsylvania Rep. Joe Sestak, a Democrat challenging Sen. Arlen Specter, in a direct attack on Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.). “I understand it’s politically challenging, but we have the votes — and we should be doing much better than we are. I think this place needs a change, quite frankly.”

Digby:

There has been a bit of back and forth about whether or not it's fair to blame Obama for the state of the health care debate , with Yglesias and Klein, among others, saying that criticisms of domestic initiatives should be focused on the congress rather than the president, who has little institutional power to affect it. I think it's true that the congress, particularly the Senate, is the choke point on domestic legislation, but the fact remains that the president is the only one who runs a national campaign and he sets the agenda. And depending on the extent of his mandate, the president has a tremendous amount of power, particularly in the first year of his term, because he has a measurable support from the public. And public opinion, believe it or not, is important.

The White House knows this very well and it husbands its capital, prioritizing the things it cares enough about to spend it on.

********************
Even I knew that the Senate was full of a bunch of prima donnas who had to be deftly handled and given a tremendous amount of attention and engagement when you try to do something big. That's just how it works in that chamber, especially when Democrats are in the majority. It was never going to be easy. But the president had a tremendous amount of good will and political power when he came into office and indicated from the beginning that instead of pushing through his agenda quickly and efficiently he would have the congress to "take the lead" and only inject himself when it was necessary to consecrate some (preferably bipartisan) compromise. That's a recipe for slow action and bad legislation.

The president may not have the singular power to enact good domestic policy, but he is the only one with the power and public backing to knock heads and lead in his own party. And if the best he can do in that regard is tell the Democrats that they need to "protect him" by passing any bill, well, that's pretty weak.

pushing through his agenda quickly and efficiently

what in the fuck

yes, if only he had done that.

goole otm

its pretty clear that a) the President's popularity and b) the public's actual support for a public option/healthcare reform do not count for JACKSHIT in the Senate (at least, this Senate)

knock heads and lead in his own party

which party are joe lieberman, susan collins and olympia snowe in? or chuck grassley, for that matter (remember him?)

really don't understand why the important angle of this discussion is, who exactly bears the greater proportion of blame for the exact amount of shittiness in the bill. eyes on the ball everyone!

ball is deflated btw

better to ask for 10 and get 4 1/2 than demand 100 and get nothing. the GOP wants this deal to come out 0. insurance, pharma and provider lobbies ditto. zero. now howard dean does too? i will not be happy with zero. no deal today means we're done. how in the hell is it a "not worth doing" let alone a "loss"? what in the fuck are these people thinking. do the deal and pick yourselves up tomorrow.

I agree. still angry though.

well no shit! i'm angry but not proud, christ grow up everyone

meanwhile, $1.2 billion in insurance company dividends in new york state alone.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SoMLoWBKM4I/AAAAAAAAK4g/wKdZyg5LxQ0/s1600-h/profits.bmp

you can keep posting that all you want but when 8+% of GDP is spent on private healthcare 3.3% of that is a huge pile of money for essentially moving it around.

i know, it's a scam

just want to continue sharing the bafflement of goole and shakey mo at dean & kox et al trying to scuttle the bill

well "trying" is a little strong, dudes are just commentators

yeah sorry not trying, expressing that it would be a good idea to do so

also kos not kox

pass this, but i predict hcr will be revisited w/in 3 presidential terms regardless. wrt "this or nothin for 30 years."

The latest ABC News/Washington Post poll found that support for the health care reform package, while never robust, is now at a low ebb and opposition has been steadily growing stronger in intensity.

For the first time, a majority of those surveyed disapproved of the president’s work on health care (53 percent) and oppose the health care reform package making its way through Congress (51 percent, compared to 44 percent approval).

That seven-point margin for opposition is its most to date -- indeed statistically significant for the first time -- and the differential in intensity of sentiment has grown since September.

is it wrong of me to have a completely opposite reading of these poll numbers - ie, the opposition is rising because the healthcare bill is progressively getting shittier and shittier, NOT because an increasing number of people oppose reform in and of itself?

yeah according to TPM the big increase is coming from liberal dissatisfied with the bill

which is something i hope the dems are getting out there RIGHT NOW and messaging on so that the GOP cant crow about how the bill is unamerican or whatever

Yup. The Dems will be punished next November because the public saw them waffling, not because the public endorses the status quo.

Chuck Todd writes on Twitter: "Most of the movement on the 'bad idea' comes from some of the president's core support groups, folks upset about lost public option." He also writes: "Still, large majorities of the president's core support groups believe his plan is a 'good idea,' but the margins have shrunk."

GOP is gonna do just that - "majority of Americans oppose this bill, Mr. President" press release writes itself

x-post

cant believe how much this bill is stressing me out

just what lieberman wanted

cant believe how much this bill is stressing me out

probably not as much as akm

well, i can believe how much its stressing akm out

really its how fucking irresponsible the senate is thats stressing me out, not that its surprising me necessarily, i just havent felt this disgusted in the american political process since 2003, or for that matter in the numerous & idiotic 'pundits' and opinion-having assholes

it is stressing me out but really only to a point, because, ultimately, fuck it, if we lose insurance then we get divorced so my wife can go on medicaid, plus, none of her doctors will refuse her treatment for an inability to pay. the worst that owuld happen would be...what? we don't pay our bills? who fucking cares? my credit gets ruined? well then we just won't buy a house, I really couldn't give a shit. as it is we have insurance and still owe upwards of 10k for this year of medical treatment alone, and we just informed the hospital that they can have fun trying to get this money since we don't have it. they said they'd let us know.

but you know, yeah, I'd rather this bill pass and they use it as a foundation for improvement. people who disagree with this want the sun and the moon.

it distresses me mostly because a Democratic president with Democratic majorities in both houses of congress, with huge public support, following on the heels of the most disastrous administration in history STILL could not pass a single-payer healthcare plan or even anything remotely resembling it. cue Kent Brockman: "I've said it before and I'll say it again, democracy just ... doesn't ... work"

and they think they're gonna pass an even more contentious climate change bill next year? yeah fucking right.

yeah it's the senate that is disappointing in this case, on the other hand, Dems only barely have a majority, and in fact, in reality, don't, because Leiberman is barely there for them. Give us a real Dem majority and this would have gone better.

just think: if we had a house of representatives with no senate, obama would have signed into law a bill with a public option a couple weeks ago

tbf there are a lot fewer loonies in the senate than there are in the House tho

key # is loonies per capita, tho