HEALTHCARE THREAD

literally, jesus

"kids"

Senators Boxer and Murray comment

John in Richmond otm

ScottM1207 apparently has some insider info on this population control scheme, too

"baby-murdering population control scheme" a weak redux of chuck norris's rhetorical muscle

john on mountain otm, this is bittersweet but :(

Did anyone link David Brooks' column from Friday? cuz some of it somehow made sense.

The amendment also requires that health plans that provide abortion services segregate the premiums from any federal subsidies into separate accounts so that federal funds don't pay for abortion services.

This calls to mind Bush's stem cell "compromise" where orgs getting Federal money for stem cell research had to quarantine that money from any research involving lines taken from human embryos. They still worked on those embryonic cells, but they had to make sure that like, they didn't use any Federal dollars for a light bulb or a set of pencils that would be used in the same room with them. Are we not men?????

my mom just totally shit a brick upon learning that i don't have insurance

'you are jeopardizing our retirement' etc

feeling a little like brazil re: logging now

cant believe you hate your parents so much that you dont have insurance

i am a bad seed

cant believe you hate your parents so much that you dont have insurance

lol my parents leaned so hard on me with this that I moved to England. happy now mom????!!

fuck this bill - I have yet to hear a decent explanation of how this is not just a huge giveaway/gov't subsidy for insurance companies

it is that, and "more" maybe.

mandates to buy private health insurance is the biggest bunch of bullshit i've ever heard. go ahead and privatize social security while you're at it, assholes

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3694/we-have-met-corporation-and-it-us

no-one actually gets penalized for not getting insurance; the IRS will not levy any of your pay, basically, paying that fine winds up being voluntary.

Um, it wasn't voluntary in Massachutsetts. I'm not sure what has changed since September, when the senate bill had these provisions for IRS fees for 'non-compliants'.

Under the plan, people who earn between 100% and 300% of the poverty level (or between about $22,000 a year and $66,000 a year for a family of four) would face fees ranging from $750 to $1,500 a year.
For taxpayers with incomes above 300% of poverty, the penalty starts at $950 a year and reaches as high as $3,800 for families. Nearly 12 million people fit in this category, according to the National Institute for Health Care Management.

Yikes: Massachusetts. I'm a well trained moron.

Did anyone link David Brooks' column from Friday? cuz some of it somehow made sense

here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/opinion/18brooks.html

It does sound somewhat reasonable until you start to ask what he means by "systemic incentives reform". He makes this the sine qua non of any serious reform, but he never defines it or gives any specifics. But he kind of gives the game away with this: "The current system is rotten to the bone with opaque pricing and insane incentives. Consumers are insulated from the costs of their decisions..." As a good libertarian conservative, Brooks doesn't like the idea of insulating the consumers of healthcare from the cost of healthcare, an idea otherwise known as "health insurance". This idea, popular with some libertarians, is that the only people who can control healthcare costs are the people who receive the care. Therefore health insurance should be replaced with some sort of tax-sheltered medical spending account.

whos arguing that? my take is that congress should pass this bill so that in the future congress can improve on it.

That's just funny.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3694/we-have-met-corporation-and-it-us

yeah but this link is mainly just a big "shut up if you disagree you whining baby" article. if its author thinks it's somehow more constructive than the whining babies on whom he focuses his ire, he's kidding himself.

like when he gets around to his payoff, he just starts lying outright:

And yet that is precisely what the bill-killer tendency (and we will surely see them behave the same incoherent way on future battles: immigration reform will be next) is pushing: This sense that nothing is progress, nothing can be defined as a win, and that winning itself is evil if it doesn’t overturn everything.

yup...nobody saying that, really; it's a mischaracterization if you're feeling charitable, a caricature more properly. "the compromises in place are unacceptable" isn't "I want everything," but from cats like this we will continue to hear that lie pushes in the hopes of more people believing it to silence people with real concerns.

He also basically ignores half of the anti-corporation argument - they'll be getting billions of dollars to (most likely) provide low-quality, high-deductible healthcare that won't get used.

That's why "lining the pockets of Big Insurance" is an issue.

shut up you big baby

when I saw the Bam announce on Saturday that "real healthcare reform" was imminent, I admit to squeezing out a "YOU LIE"

squeezing out? you mean you can poop letters? that's skill.

mad excretory skills, kinda like the Administration's with policy

I do think this bill is a "good thing", but if anyone stands to lose out, at least in the short-term, it's probably young, urban, rootless cosmopolitans, ie., the predominant demographic of this board. This is the demographic who can get by without health insurance and may be freelancing rather than holding steady jobs, but will be forced to buy insurance under this plan. So if I would expect anyone to be against this, apart from the usual suspects, it would be the average ILE poster.

rootless cosmopolitans

^^^code for jews iirc

mandate pentalty:

(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.— In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
‘‘(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary shall not—
‘‘(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or
‘‘(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

i don't know. look: I pay for private insurance for myself, my kid, and my wife, who has cancer. we spent three months fighting blue shield while they tried to rescind her insurance the minute she was diagnosed, and sweated it while they investigated her health history (she had nothing to hide and they found nothing and so were stuck with the bill). it is not great insurance; we pay almost $100/month per person and our deductibles are high, high enough that I don't know how we can afford to pay what we owe. However, I have also seen the bills that we would have been stuck with without this insurance: we passed the $100k mark a LONG time ago, and she's only been in treatment for 6 months. Without this bill, she stands to get stuck with a huge increase in her premium because she is sick. Without this bill, she will likely not get covered by any other private insurance package for the rest of her life. This bill fixes that.

He also basically ignores half of the anti-corporation argument - they'll be getting billions of dollars to (most likely) provide low-quality, high-deductible healthcare that won't get used.

insurance isn't based on what you personally pay in, you personally take out. hundreds of thousands of SICK people will be eligible for coverage now as a result of the healthy people who pay in and don't use it, otherwise there is no way to cover sick people. The bill also requires that 85% of money go toward healthcare, not administrative bonuses or other waste. I don't know how this is going to get enforced but I can't believe anyone thinks this is not better than what we have now.

i def appreciate the persepctive akm

Hundreds of thousands of people will get coverage with $5k deductibles and get the run around when it comes time to actually pay for shit.

then you deal with what you owe to hospitals the way I do: call them and say you have no money and let them figure it out. That is better than owing them $200k.

rootless cosmopolitans

^^^code for jews iirc

My apologies if anyone was offended. I meant that only as a generic term for young, mainly single, people who move jobs a lot and live in cities.

Irish Travellers gonna be pissed!

haha just kidding o. nate

just been reading some fascist history is all

then you deal with what you owe to hospitals the way I do: call them and say you have no money and let them figure it out. That is better than owing them $200k.

But healthcare shouldn't be about about paying for cancer treatment or other outliers - if you can't afford health insurance there are options for cancer treatment (shitty ones, but options) that aren't that different from the above poverty plea - without having the government foot the tab for insurance that doesn't help you out the other 99.9% of your life. I feel this way about private insurance too - there's zero reason for me to pay $150-250/month for a plan with no co-pays and a deductible that's around 20% of my income.

The subsidization would be reasonable if we were paying for plans with affordable unlimited GP visits, specialists and excellent prescription coverage and reasonable deductibles for hospitalization, but that's not the case.

i def appreciate the persepctive akm

thanks. I realize some people might write my opinions off on this because I and my family are very personally impacted by the implications of this bill. But I think my perspective is valid, and maybe more valid than the opinions of lots of otherwise healthy, insured people who stand to lose very little with this bill's passage. It actually pisses off, I should be congratulated for not killing all of you and every Republican I see. J/K. But I got an email from Jane Hamsher this morning that sounded so much like Sarah Palin/Teabagger horseshit that I unsubscribed from ever getting their updates and lost absolutely all respect for Firedoglake (not like I had that much to begin with because the name is so dumb).

if anyone stands to lose out, at least in the short-term, it's probably young, urban, rootless cosmopolitans

How about the young, urban and recently unemployed? I got let go in September and have been having a hell of a time trying to find a job. While I do, UI covers my rent and car insurance/power/phone bills. I hope the job market gets better in 2k10 because I don't want to end up having to pay an extra $700 when tax time comes around and still not be able to go to the doctor when I get sick.

you wont

i will steal it from him

milo you sound like youre arguing against insurance in general, not this healthcare plan!

Will the money get deducted from my tax refund?

This healthcare plan is for-profit insurance, so yeah, they're kind of intertwined. For-profit insurance provides shitty care for too high a price on the low end - and now we're going to give them billions of dollars for more of the same.

Will the money get deducted from my tax refund?

I got a letter from Obama this morning Adam I guess I have to cover you until you get work

you better be pounding that pavement man I am not made of money

Thank you for that advice I hadn't thought of looking for a job before!

lol