― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 1 September 2003 14:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jesse Fuchs (Jesse Fuchs), Monday, 1 September 2003 14:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'm not so sure - the fact of two sexes is the condition of possibility for its existence, true, but in a very broad sense its operation is quite similar to the way in which oppression of race/culture, animals and the environment work in that it follows the operation of platonic dualism (ie. a binary opposition wherein each side of the binary is presupposed to *totally* opposed and different to the other, and one has to instrumentalise the other). Thus it is our mode of thinking about the *world* which encourages us to entrench gender inequality.
I guess I'm very swayed by eco-feminisists wrt this line of argument.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 01:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 01:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
What people who do this then do is read other oppressions as a subset (I use the word deliberately this time) of the one they're interested in, which can be useful up to a point but then very quickly becomes distorting. I guess my beef is with the idea of there being a heirarchy of oppressions, when I would argue that what *is* common among different forms of oppression (eg. platonic dualism) never finds a pure expression of itself anywhere. It can only be seen in the various individual manifestations oppression but is not originally *derived* from any one form.
A lot of radical feminists I used to know would insist that the "root" of all oppression was gender oppression; likewise a lot of marxists would say the same vis a vis class oppression. I would contend that the "root" of oppression is always absent, invisibly shaping different oppressions because it is entrenched in language and consciousness rather than in any *particular* social or interpersonal operation of opression.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 04:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
BECAUSE I can't smile when my girlfriends are dying inside. We are dying inside and we never even touch each other; we are supposed to hate each other.
BECAUSE we need to talk to each other. Communication/inclusion is the key. We will never know if we don't break the code of silence.
BECAUSE we are being divided by our labels and philosophies, and we need to accept and support each other as girls; acknowledging our different approaches to life and accepting all of them as valid.
BECAUSE I need laughter and I need girl love. We need to build lines of communication so we can be more open and accessible to each other.
BECAUSE we need to acknowledge that our blood is being spilt; that right now a girl is being raped or battered and it might be you or your mom or the girl you sat next to on the bus last Tuesday, and she might be dead by the time you finish reading this. I am not making this up.
BECAUSE we will never meet the hierarchical BOY standards of talented, cool, or smart. They are created to keep us out, and if we ever meet them they will change, or we will become tokens.
BECAUSE in every form of media I see us/myself slapped, decapitated, laughed at, objectified, raped, trivialized, pushed, ignored, stereotyped, kicked, scorned, molested, silenced, invalidated, knifed, shot, choked, and killed.
BECAUSE I am tired of these things happening to me; I'm not a fuck toy, I'm not a punching bag, I'm not a joke.
BECAUSE I am still fucked up, I am still dealing with internalized racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, etc., and I don't want to do it alone.
BECAUSE I see the connectedness of all forms of oppression and I believe we need to fight them with this awareness.
BECAUSE a safe space needs to be created for girls where we can open our eyes and reach out to each other without being threatened by this sexist society and our day to day bullshit.
by Erika Reinstein, editor of Fantastic Fanzine; as printed in Riot Grrrl NYC #2, 1992 BECAUSE every time we pick up a pen, or an instrument, or get anything done, we are creating the revolution. We ARE the revolution.
BECAUSE us girls crave records and books and fanzines that speak to US that WE feel included in and can understand in our own ways.
BECAUSE we wanna make it easier for girls to see/hear each other's work so that we can share strategies and criticize-applaud each other.
BECAUSE we must take over the means of production in order to create our own meanings.
BECAUSE viewing our work as being connected to our girlfriends-politics-real lives is essential if we are gonna figure out how we are doing impacts, reflects, perpetuates, or DISRUPTS the status quo.
BECAUSE we recognize fantasies of Instant Macho Gun Revolution as impractical lies meant to keep us simply dreaming instead of becoming our dreams AND THUS seek to create revolution in our own lives every single day by envisioning and creating alternatives to the bullshit christian capitalist way of doing things.
BECAUSE we don't wanna assimilate to someone else's (boy) standards of what is or isn't cool.
BECAUSE we are unwilling to falter under claims that we are reactionary "reverse sexists" AND NOT THE TRUEPUNKROCK-SOULCRUSADERS THAT WE KNOW we really are.
BECAUSE we know that life is much more than physical survival and are patently aware that the punk rock "you can do anything" idea is crucial to the coming angry grrrl rock revolution that seeks to save the psychic and cultural lives of girls and women everywhere, according to their terms, not ours.
BECAUSE we are interested in creating non-hierarchical ways of being AND making music, friends, and scenes based on communication + understanding, instead of competition + good/bad categorizations.
BECAUSE doing/reading/seeing/hearing cool things that validate and challenge us can help us gain strength and the sense of community that we need in order to figure out how bullshit like racism, able-bodyism, ageism, speciesism, classism, thinism, anti-Semitism, and heterosexism figures in our own lives.
BECAUSE we see fostering and supporting girl scenes and girl artists of all kinds as integral to this process.
BECAUSE we hate capitalism in all its forms and see our main goal as sharing information and staying alive, instead of making profits or being cool according to traditional standards.
BECAUSE we are angry at a society that tells us Girl=Dumb, Girl=Bad, Girl=Weak.
BECAUSE we are unwilling to let our real and valid anger be diffused and/or turned against us via the internalization of sexism as witnessed in girl/girl jealousism and self-defeating girltype behaviors.
BECAUSE I believe with my wholeheartmindbody that girls constitute a revolutionary soul force that can, and will, change the world for real.
from Bikini Kill #2, Olympia, WA circa 1992 (as reprinted in Rosenberg and Garofalo 1998)
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
(Spice Girls, dunno when)
― Herbstmute (Wintermute), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
Am I doing something right, or wrong, or...?
― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
I get up to the front and kick arse in moshpits. I smoke, I wear jeans, I sit with my legs apart. I call boys up and ask them out on dates. I initiate sex. I tell off my boss if I think he's being a sexist prick. I can talk to my male and my female friends about any feeling or thought without feeling "weird". I walk the streets alone at night with CAUTION instead of FEAR - and it seems to work. I live alone and I work hard and I manage fine (mostly). I can admit it when I am vulnerable, and ask for a cuddle and cup of tea and not think it is "weak" or "wrong".
I refuse to be a fucking victim.
― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
Race oppression is not a subset of gender oppression, because there are black people who are not women.
Gender oppression is not a subset of race oppression, because there are women who are not black.
Can someone explain this?
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
I wanna be more like Trayce.
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
Side note - orbit, do you know where there archives of early grrrl zines on the web?
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
― gareth (gareth), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 05:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
Hi! This is the Riot Grrrl Review website!
This site is always kind of fucked up, full of typos, and I post the reviewslate. I am either too busy or too lazy to fix it. This is how it is. Deal.
To see the zine reviews from #2, go here.To see the zine reviews from #3, go here.To see the zine reviews from #4, go here.To see the music reviews, go here.#1 is out of print, sorry. It's way old, anyway.
Riot Grrrl Review has been on hiatus for a year now, but I'm getting backinto the swing of things. I am going to be in Chicago during May and Juneand will be traveling around in July. #5 has been in the works; I work on itwhen my schedule/life permits. Thanks for your patience.
Please send me your zines, music, comics, etc. for review, and I will reviewthem. For those of you unfamiliar with my reviewing policy, Riot GrrrlReview is for women and girls. Boys can send their zines for consideration,and I will review what I feel is relevent and list what I like if I don'tsee much relevence. I know this is somewhat of a controversial policy.Suggestions are welcome, but I still do things at my discretion. If you sendmaterial for review, make sure your address and price is on the cover. Sendit to me at Kristy Chan, USF 30334, 4202 E. Fowler Ave., Tampa, FL33620-3033. The old Fort Myers address is NOT good. I live in Tampa now andam trying to get everyone to start using the Tampa box.
Classifieds and project listings are coming one day. And so are links that Iowe to all the wonderful webgirls that have linked my site to theirs. I amreally grateful and no one would come here if it wasn't for them, and towhoever got me listed in Yahoo! where my site comes up
first
when you type in "riot grrrl", THANK YOU!
Oh yeah, I'm actually doing a thank you list here... Thanks in random orderto Mimi Ilano, Matt Wobensmith, Mimi Nguyen, Ericka Bailie, Lauren Martin,Seth Bogus, Christina Varner, Theresa Mitten, Sarah Gion, Ocean Capewell,Sarah C. in England, Tamra of Lucid Nation, Ceci Moss, Kelli Williams,Bianca Ortiz, Laurie Chan, Mike Mitchell, Allison Dority, John Paree, JenWolfe, Asian Takeover boys and girls, Barbie girls, and anyone I forgot -I'm sorry my memory is so crappy.
Okay, the contest is over. I will announce the winner when I get my shittogether, and give that person their prize, a bag of candy. If you actuallygive a shit, the songs are "Whip It" by Devo, "True Colors" by Cyndi Lauper,the "Bewitched" theme song, "James Bond" theme song, "Violet" by Hole, andum. I can't think of the rest right now. MIDIs are really dumb, but I lovethem, so I'm not taking them off!
Oh yeah, I guess I should plug my shit.. I have a personal zine calledTennis and Violins. I wrote it last winter when I was really depressed alot.Some people love it and some people think it's annoying. It has journalentries, some opinions and stories about racism, classism, being queer, um..also interviews with Ceci Moss and Matt Outpunk. You can get it in the mailfrom me for a few stamps or money or a letter. Whatever you can afford. Iguess it costs me between 65 cents to $1 to make and send each one. Don'teven ask if you can read it on the web or in email because it won't happen.Tennis and Violins #2 is going to be a split with Suburbia zine by Ceci.It's going to be 100 pages. My half has travel stories, art/photos, Barbiestories, an interview with Rachel Carns (the Need, Kicking Giant), and lotsof other stuff. Keep your eyes open for that. I also did a zine called WildHoney Pie when I was in high school and middle school. #9 has an interviewwith Allison Wolfe (Bratmobile), artsy stuff, info, its kind of random, butall of it is good reading, I think. It costs $1. #10 is giant, like fullsize, a zillion pages. It's $2, and it has interviews with Mark Robinson(Unrest), Larry Livermore (Lookout!), Wynona Riders (Berkeley punk),Pietasters (D.C. ska. They're kind of dumb, oh well.), and Dick Lucas (thesinger from Subhumans). Also a shitload of articles and personal writing.Seth from Puberty Strike likes it!
I also want to encourage you to contribute to these projects I am workingon...ASIAN TAKEOVER - I am compiling a zine by Asian people about racism,identity, history, assimilation, etc. This is real. I am going to put thisout. I have already gotten a substantial amount of material, but you cansend stuff in while I'm too busy to print this sucker. Send me your art,photos, text, poetry, life story.100 BARBIE GIRLS CAN'T BE WRONG! - Answer this question - How did you playwith your Barbie dolls?
Read about me and my many obsessions.Mimi does this ace site with Asian/Pacific Islander American feministresources, her solid critiques of punk, material she reads, etc. This is notsomething you want to miss.Ericka does Pander zine distro and the ever-amazing Power Candy zine, abouther life, mental illness, all sorts of things. Both very cool projects.Mike is a friend of mine. His page is about punk and stuff.Russell has a site about comics, Bis, and teen DIY projects.Sign My Guestbook but keep in mind that I just check it for comments, and ifyou want a reply, I recommend e-mailing me, instead. This is also a goodplace to plug your shit or start dialogue until I figure out how to make amessage board or something like that, if that's what you want to do.View My Guestbooke-mail meYou are visitor number [Image] since Feb. 27, 1997. Wow!
anti©opyright 1998
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
Ironically, I have been known to be more intimidated by other women, but thats more to do with being bullied by them in school, and betrayed by female friends later in life. But I'm over all that now anyway.
― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:02 (twenty-one years ago) link
Well I didn't have a Ken doll, they had to make do SOMEhow!
― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
point being it's more complex than you were giving it credit for, that's all/
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
In what way is it more complex? You can't leave a statement like that hanging unqualified.
― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
Many variants of radical feminism however, strive towards what is called "equalism", meaning different groups plat an equal part on decisionmaking and self-determination. The emphasis is on dialog between and among different interest groups to arrive at a concensus. It's not always a comfortable process, but what is being sought is a world that is constructed to take the needs of all kinds of people into account.
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
Feminism has a part to play where gender inequality is significant, but in western societies we are past that stage in our development. Yes some inequalities remain but society is generally aware and concerns itself with eradicating these inequalities. Gender inequality and even racial inequalities are far less significant than class and economic inequalities. Scoop everyone up from the bottom, and if there are more disadvantaged women, or blacks or whatever then you will scoop up more women blacks or whatever.
In striving foe equality why restrict your group to 50% of the population, smells like sexism to me.
― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
I do disagree with you statement that experiences across gender are common. They are not. You never got your first period, You never had a perv grab your tits. You never had to wonder was that guy looking at your chest or at you. Experiences are different, When I walk into a room and there is a porn mag on the table it affects me differently from how it affects you because I am female and have grown up in a sexist society. I could go on for pages, but the experience of growing up a boy is very different from growing up a girl, This is old territory, its been covered a million times, and no one disputes it any more. I am not trying to be dismissive, and after I've had some sleep I could post a reading list or something and we could pick up the conversation later if you are interested.
― Orbit (Orbit), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:52 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 06:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 07:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
In some cases, in fact, they've worsened social attitudes. I can only really speak for the UK educational system, but there's a big problem there with the fact that girls tend to do better than boys in Key Stage SATs, GCSEs, and A-Levels (although at University there's, I believe, a reversal). There are scads of measures in place to increase boys' attainment, but meanwhile many working-class young men aren't getting the best jobs they potentially could have because women are often better qualified. Which leads to more resentment, and more disenfranchisement of working-class males, and that's surely counter-productive.
― cis (cis), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
I've got some stuff to do today but I will get back to this point later.
― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:17 (twenty-one years ago) link
(x-post)
― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
I’ll give an example of ‘restrict groups by gender’ (though I don’t know if it’s the sort of thing Ed was talking about).This weekend I’m going to Ladyfest Manchester and one of the workshops I’d really like to go to, in fact the only one I really want to go to is a drumming workshop which I’m banned from because I’m not a girl! I’m semi-furious, I pay exactly the same as everyone who can go.
I think they want to keep out men cause they think they might make it intimidating for the women, but I’m easily intimidated too. I can kind of see where they’re coming from but I wanna go!*throws rattle*.
Practically, what should I do? Is there anything I can do?
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think experiences are broadly common though there are differences.I never got my first period but I did have a first wet dream; I never had a ‘perv’ grab my tits but I did have a (female) ‘perv’ grab my bottom; I never wondered was a guy looking at my chest (which would be part of me) but I’ve wondered was someone looking at my puppy fat.
When I walk into a room and see a porn mag on a table it effect me different to how it effects you because we are different PEOPLE, not because we are different sexes/genders. I’m interested in porn mags than most men I know. I know several women who really do like porn.
How do you know the experience of growing up a boy is so different to your own experience? When did YOU grow up a boy?
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
-- Andrew Thames (cleanbridge...), September 2nd, 2003.------------------------------------------------------------------------
GRRRRR!!!Anyway, I’m only going so I can cure me some Lesbians!
Have you not learned anything from sitcoms, mei?
-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 2nd, 2003.
What, you mean I should dress up as a woman and sneak in?Hmmm. That might help me with the lesbians too...
(Humour Alert – I AM JOKING)
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:47 (twenty-one years ago) link
Meant to say I'm LESS interested in porn mags than most men.
I'm not saying I don't like pornography at all, but the realy artificial stuff I've seen in mags, with it's participants obviously not enjoying it, isn't a big turn on.
― mei (mei), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:50 (twenty-one years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 08:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 2 September 2003 09:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
To respond to the porn question, I'm not at all uncomfortable about porn personally, except when it appears unwanted around say, the parents or at work or something, but hell, I have been known to look at porn and enjoy it! FWIW.
― Trayce (trayce), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 09:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
ed do you think legislating against racial and gender inequality actually works or something?
In striving foe equality why restrict your group to 50% of the population, smells like sexism to me
who is doing that? when women say WE WANT EQUALITY, why is it often read into as "we want equality but not for men"? if men feel oppressed, shouldn't they organise their own shit, like women have had to? most feminists want equality for men and women, thats what equality means!
also, if you think class oppression is more crucial in western society than racial or gender oppression, i can only think you have your head in the sand. NB class oppression IS important but i think your prioritizing of some oppressions against others is very monofocussed.
― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 11:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
although i was taught the open chords from a male, i can definitely attest to the comfort of having no men around when i learned to play guitar. i felt less judged. there are still a lot of assumptions about women playing instruments which circulate, to this very day when i go to the rock shop and ask for a guitar string the male staff ALWAYS assume i mean an acoustic string...
― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 11:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
Maybe I didn't read this thread correctly...
― cybele (cybele), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 12:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 12:40 (twenty-one years ago) link