The island wanted LOST SEASON SIX THREAD to happen (***CLICK CAREFULLY -- CONTAINS SPOILERS***)

ben and jack are sitting on the plane that will take them back to the island and jack asks what is going to happen to all the other people on the plane and ben turns to him and says "who cares?"

I like that at least a couple of the people on the plane were planted anyway. Pretty soon we're going to find out that half of the people on Oceanic flights over the pacific are somehow Dharma, Jacob, or Locke-related anyway.

nice! xpost

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091013125614AAbVRB5

^ ?

The "we have to go back" stuff still seems unconvincing a second time around. Jack had always been single-minded about wanting to leave and didn't believe all the "island = your destiny" stuff - just because Locke said right at the end that he was going to move the island and then did, doesn't make everything else he said come true or make any sense.

As unconvincing as this was, it wasn't as bad as the whole "we have to lie about where we were" business they went through when they got off the island. Like I understand that for the sake of the future story that they wanted to tell, it was necessary for the characters to lie. Just like it was necessary for the sake of the future story for the characters to go back to the island, but I really wish they were good enough writers to make this stuff convincing. The whole bit about protecting the rest of them from Whidmore didn't really even make superficial sense. There's lots of other shit like this in the show I remember if I could tolerate going back to rewatch it all. But the thing about Lost is that the first 3 and a half seasons are un-rewatchable, because most of the flachbacks just aren't very compelling a second time through and they're a big chunk of early episodes, especially for characters like Boone and Shannon.

Also thought it was funny in season five when Sawyer and Jack are arguing about what to do about Sayid cuz Sawyer was just sitting around reading and Sawyer goes into this speech about thinking and how when Jack was the leader he never thought, he just reacted. So Jack was like "I got us off the Island!" Yeah Jack, you got yourself and four other people off the island and then did nothing for the other survivors for three years. Great job.

I think people need to rewatch if they think jack deciding they had to go back didn't make sense. To my memory they played out jack's slow conversion to that view over loads of flash forwards. As I already said he starts seeing his dad everywhere, and basically loses his shit through the guilt of having left the rest behind, to die for all he knows. How is it not well explained?

I'd have to watch it again to see how the pact to lie about the island comes about, but I don't remember that seeming unnecessary either.

I mean hadn't they just left an island where widmore had sent a death squad to murder them all? Kinda might just make sense they didn't want to go back to the real world all Hi!

It doesn't matter if the lying to protect people from Widmore didn't make sense (it didn't - Widmore knew they were bullshitting). Surely the whole point is that Jack doesn't think before he acts? That's what that scene with Sawyer in the barracks was all about.

How does Widmore knowing they were bullshitting mean them telling that lie made no sense? Surely that just means the lie didn't quite work, not that the motivation for telling it made no sense?

Yeah actually now I think about it I suppose in Jack's mind there was no reason for Widmore to know who any of the Oceanic 6 were. But then again I don't think they were trying to bullshit Widmore, I think they were avoiding having to tell the entire world about an island that people have gone to a lot of trouble to keep secret.

It was a bit of all those things I think. I think Locke told Jack not to tell anyone. Also like...their actually true story would have been fucking insane.

Haha, I like that reasoning, because in Lost-world logic, it does make sense - trying to tell them they were on an island for all those months which no longer exists would make them all look like psychotic, murderous cannibals or something. Also remember - Widmore already did the whole immense cover-up with the fake plane, the dug up bodies and so on. So they'd look REALLY crazy! So they were going to have to make up some kind of lie.

the plane coverup is what confuses me: the fake crash was made to look like everyone died - all the bodies were 'discovered', right? so how did they explain the oceanic six being alive? (i admit i may have forgotten/missed something here)

I don't think that for the fake crash they ever claimed to have found/identified every single body

yeah they just seemed to go based on identifying the plane and the pilot and stuff. the lie the o6 told was based on where the fake plane was found etc

oh, i thought there was that purchase order for exactly the same number of bodies as were present on the real plane

I sort of assume Widmore did his best to make it appear as tho everyone was dead. But also in reality when they found the plane etc it was buried extremely well and they couldn't really check every body.

Is it true that Walter Peck from Ghostbusters is in the new series?

no but slimer will be

apparently yeah (xpost)

I hope Walter Peck is this year's redshirt who gets to act like a pissy dick for five minutes before getting killed in an amusing way.

william atherton is in LOST?!?!?

the atherton trilogy of assholes (real genius, ghostbusters, die hard) rivals that of william zabka (karate kid, back to school, just one of the guys)

Re Jack going back - I have rewatched it. Obviously it shows Jack losing his shit. But why would that make him want to go back? He managed to bring Kate and the baby back. He'd always wanted to do that. Kate is happy back home.

Jack's had some father issues and his dad's just died. He's bound to go a bit crazy and surely being a 'man of science' this would be his first explanation (to himself/anyone else?) as to why he's losing it.

There's no reason for Jack to think that the people left on the island are in danger. Unless he suddenly believes all the stuff Locke's been spouting about them leaving = direct cause of danger to other survivors. As I said, the island moving could have convinced him that Locke is knower of all things after all, but seeing how much airtime they give to Jack just "losing it" he never says anything about this afaik.

I agree that he might reasonably start worrying about the danger the others are in due to Smokey etc (regardless of Locke's arguments) but why would he even assume they were alive three years later? It took a few weeks for most of the survivors to get picked off.

OTOH "the lie" makes a lot of sense - they'd have to answer some awkward questions otherwise and they know a very powerful man is desperate to keep the island under wraps and will kill to do so. So yeah, I'd lie.

no reason? wouldn't he think widmore would still be trying to protect the island by any means necessary, including killing the survivors?

He might, but what I'm saying is he never mentions this, never wonders whether three years later they would have all been killed or whatever. There's never a clear reason given for him wanting to go back (and - importantly - putting Kate etc in danger once again) other than "oh I'm losing it wah"

just because we didn't have a specific scene of jack going 'hmm i wonder if they're dead' doesn't mean he hasn't wondered about it. and ben did imply that jin was still alive... i think his reason is mostly escapism and feeling like he will never really be able to be a part of normal society again.

i mean, it's like, he leaves --> life falls apart. it's pretty clear he thinks his life fell apart because he was not supposed to leave, so if he goes back, he'll be happy/functional again.

I kind of thought that was the point; namely, Jack only wanted to return to the island because he was losing his shit and that was the last place where he found happiness.

xp: yeah, that

That's kind of what I mean. He didn't ever believe Locke's "you're supposed to /not supposed to" arguments. So is he now a convert to destiny etc? Why? Because his life fell apart? All I mean is it's just surprising in this show, where they give people quite clear motivations, for Jack to become a 'man of faith' without it being a major plot point.

Escapism seems the most likely aspect I guess, but I'm just never quite convinced of his motivations. Maybe he wants to see Ghost Christian again.

how is it any worse than hurley believing in being cursed?

did you miss how Jack basically turned into a gigantic crying blouse

Hang on, I could be completely wrong. I'm only part way through Season 5 re-watch and haven't got to the bit where Locke appears to Jack to tell him all about how nasty the island is since he left. Lostpedia seems to think this was a main influence in sending him back.

well also he kind of flips out when locke says "oh hey your dad says hi"

The Locke meeting is what causes his depression (that and suspicions about Kate on the phone). Makes more sense now, having Locke & Jack showdown off-island. I think I had the different bits of the story in the wrong order in my head.

All I mean is it's just surprising in this show, where they give people quite clear motivations, for Jack to become a 'man of faith' without it being a major plot point.

Yeah I agree with this - Lost used to spend so long on back-story that any characters motivation for doing anything would become painfully obvious. So it's surprising here that there is even any debate as to what his intentions for going back were. In the episode I watched last night Juliet confronts Jack in the shower about why he came back, not believing it was to save those they left behind but for his own selfish reasons, and Jack reveals he thinks coming back to the island is his destiny (or something along those lines). This is a seismic shift in Jack's personality and imo hasn't been explained yet. That said the show could probably do without another episode filling any of that wack off-island phase of the story at this point.

As for the other characters:

kate - wants to find claire and bring her back to the mainland
hurley - no idea ? am i forgetting something ?
sayid - wasn't intentional
sun - wants to find jin [why did sun not go back to the 70s?]

My main other gripes with the 'the lie' is as follows: what made them think that if they lied and did nothing that everyone else left on the island would be safe? For the entirely of their stay on the island they were constantly in danger...even before the Widmore character was brought into the show...so why would they be safe now?

other things that have pissed me off rewatching:

- why does everyone talk about 'their people' so much. at what point do other human beings you are trapped with on an island become 'your people'. would like to know please thanks

- ben says that 'his people' don't even have a name for 'the monster'. i mean wtf? how do they talk about it then? would seem a bit difficult tbh

I dunno, I really felt and believed the sense that everything just went fucking wrong for Jack once he left the island. I don't think, having made a difficult decision to leave this weirdo fucking island where so much crazy shit happened, that it's that weird for him to want to go back, to think "maybe I wasn't actually supposed to leave", not least when he's hallucinating and shit and seeing his Dad. The sense for me was that there was no real equilibrium to his life when he left.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jack

LG, that's how it appeared in the order the episodes were aired, but seems he was ok for a while, stuff started going wrong only after 2 years or so off-island (so that's why it didn't sit well with me that he would instantly decide leaving the island was the cause of everything going wrong). I guess it all built up into general craziness then Locke's visit was the final nail in the coffin (Locke taking advantage of Jack's state of mind to manipulate him into going back?) - need to re-watch that ep.

Oh yeah and I reeeealllly wish Kate would stop called Aaron 'my son' rather than just, y'know, 'Aaron', because every single person she says it to seems to reply "he's not your son!" and she gets pissed off.

it still pisses me off that Locke's note to Jack was just "I wish you had believed me". I think that was my least favourite thing about the entire last season.

wish it had been "4 8 15 16 23 42"

wish it had been "hi jack, i left a lump of cheese in the hatch back when we were on the island, only to find it unwrapped and half eaten!!! you were in the hatch that day. what happened??? i'm confused! Locke."

hurley - no idea ? am i forgetting something ?

SOmething to do with Charlie telling him to go, hence the guitar case.

It wasn't Charlie, it was Jacob. Also there were dudes trying to kill Hurley all over the place and he'd already had his "this is fucked up" moment at the start of the season.

I think part of the problem was that the Locke episode in the last season was so badly written, ESPECIALLY the face-offs with Jack and Kate. They could have done so much more with those scenes than just "nyerr, you just want to go back to the island because you've never had a girlfriend".

sup frackles

frackles, frackles, frackles

Jack's sudden change of mind to come back to the island (which only happened within a matter of like 48 hrs by the way) isn't as weird as Kate's reversal, which was even shorter, but whatever. They leave a lot of shit to be inferred here, but it's all somehow plausible. Also to answer someone upthread, it was Jacob himself who convinced Hurley to go back.

I still don't find the original Oceanic six lie about the island convincing, though. It's kind of garbage in my opinion. I just know that the story needed them to lie, so they did without ever having a convincing rationale.

I dunno, I guess I just love and hate this show at the same time. As much as I love this show, so much of it is so dumb in my opinion, and always has been.

how can we even be talking about bullshitty motivations and changes of heart in S5 as if any of them are at all crazy compared to Juliet's 10-minute turn around from "we have to stop them from blowing up the island!" to "we have to blow up the island!" in the finale?

haha, good point!

just take the convoluted Lost logic and strap in for the ride, guys, that's how it's been since the first episode