why must every moderately successful store in the UK be immediately turned into a chain?

how many 'masala zones' are there in london anyway?

The "yay chain restaurants for bringing affordable dining out for the working classes" is flawed because in many cases independent restaurants are not significantly more expensive than chains.

indeed but people don't want to take a punt, as has been said repeatedly; they know what they're getting, as said repeatedly. it hasn't been established that cheap indie places even have better ingredients. IT'S JUST LIKE WITH POP VS INDIE REALLY.

And the answer to the original thread question is that, more often than not, they are backed up with private equity/venture capital/seed capital money rather than old-fashioned bank loans and investors be wanting to grow the business as quickly as possible.

i had a domino's last night :D

One of the best restaurants I've ever been to was a run-down Italian place in central London called the 'Centrale'. You could grab a huge plate of delicious pasta (with chilli sauce/other toppings) for about three quid. We were taken there by a wonderful, worldly-wise teacher of mine, and we ate superb food for extremely low prices. It had a reputation of being homeless-friendly; tramps would often come every few days, having saved up their takings, and it would serve them without prejudice. When it closed down a few years ago I was greatly saddened. I think Dom would have adored it (not least because he'd have been able to natter along with the charming owners in their native tongue).

My point? Some independent places are not only cheaper, but they're necessary.

But I had a lovely chatter with a beautiful girl who worked at a KFC. Which was also very homeless-friendly, so in a way it's not what type of shop it is it's the people in it, innit.

That Centrale place was nice though.. (near old compton street??)

Assuming it's the same place.. the lady (presumably the owner) was very charmingly angry. and shouted at us a lot, but in an adorable way

Yeah, I think it was near (or on) the circus (Cambridge Circus?) where Shaftesbury Avenue joins Charing Cross Road. [/rickety geography]

The lady was indeed like that. She was also very sympathetic (if amused) when I succumbed to temptation, and the goads of my friends, and placed one of the very small, very red chillis in my mouth, and crunched down. Not overly distressed by the immediate effect, I repeated the process with a second. Sadly, my hubris was to be punished roughly 8 seconds later with a sensation I can only describe as 'internalised hell'. It took, I believe, five glasses of water before it even became normal 'hot-food' pain.

savin' the thread, one post at a time.

glad I'm not interested in food

lol scottish?

what are you interested in?

xpost

do you live on vitamin pills, RJG?

I'm not british/scottish

indeed but people don't want to take a punt, as has been said repeatedly; they know what they're getting, as said repeatedly

This has all probably been said already but the thing is, how do new chains get off the ground in the first place? I'm not sure if folks are somehow afraid of local food places or if it's the vibe of being just another anonymous customer that going into a chain brings or whether maybe people like to feel that they're somehow participating in this big exciting global machine, but I do get the feeling that people are more comfortable taking that punt with a chain restaurant. Is that right?

Yeah, I think it was near (or on) the circus (Cambridge Circus?) where Shaftesbury Avenue joins Charing Cross Road.

there is a pizza hut there. also an all bar one.

One reason for the success of chains in the UK is I believe due to land ownership. On the continent shopkeepers and so on tend to own their premises and hand them down, in the UK a lot of commerical / retail land is owned by landlords who can push rents to levels which only the chains can afford. I'm not sure when these landowners rose to power though.

Also The Pub.

xxpost: and a pub called 'the cambridge' and a couple of theatres. just beyond is lloyd's no.1 bar, which is a wetherspoons.

speaking of which, FUCKING WETHERSPOONS

^^^the real enemy

town vs gown

BAN LOUIS JAGGER, Spoonys is king

haha, like the regal isn't fucking chock full of cambridge students every saturday (xpost)

wetherspoons is very homeless friendly

going back upthread a bit:

i guess there is still something a little unsettling about other people making your food, hidden from view. i talked to a cab driver once (in manhattan) who said that he never ate in restaurants, EVER, because you don't know who's making your food and what they've just done with their hands

yes. i guess there is still something a little unsettling about other people making your underpants, hidden from view. i talked to a tinfoil-hat-wearing maniac once who said he never wore underpants because you don't know who's making them and whether or not they've wanked furiously into the vat of dye.

:/

as for the discussion in general ... i dunno, i'm becoming more and more worn down by shrill middle-class metropolitan posturing about how we all have to get back to little shops selling home-grown organic plums for two days a year etc, although a lot of this is down to a rash of articles i've subbed recently on said subject. it has become a kneejerk response on my part, i admit, but noodle vague, dom and others are OTFM above: this is absolutely and totally a class issue.

fine: if you've got the time and the cash to do all yr shopping at independent shops and avoid the multiples -- good on you. you're doing a decent thing. me -- and i'm as much of a middle-class wank as they get -- i leave the flat at 8am and don't get home till 9pm. i work one sunday in three, and spend many of my saturdays on arran helping mrs F look after her dad. with all this in mind, the 24-hour tesco is a fucking godsend, and i ain't gonna feel guilty about using it.

as for restaurants (whence this discussion came): as i said on the pizza thread, i fucking hate and despise pizza hut and would rather eat dom's spunk spread on an old boot. however: that's my opinion, and i'm not going to look down on some harassed mum taking her kids in for a child-/family-friendly meal, because -- hey! -- preferring the food from the wee bistro round the corner doesn't make me some superior life-form.

won't somebody think of the children

dom's spunk was so much better before it got sold out to this new scarf and blazer branded franchise

i was about to post that, only not ironically, because i'm told that having kids isn't entirely uncommon and, having grown up with parents, i can recall that maybe on top of everything that entails, maybe going to separate city-centre venues to buy foods each day wasn't an option as open to them as it is to young urban professional types.

xpost

Now if we're going to take as read that other countries in the world that aren't Britain contain parents with young children, people that work long hours and workers on low incomes, none of this is adequately explaining why there are so many chain stores and restaurants in the UK in relation to other countries.

One reason for the success of chains in the UK is I believe due to land ownership. On the continent shopkeepers and so on tend to own their premises and hand them down, in the UK a lot of commerical / retail land is owned by landlords who can push rents to levels which only the chains can afford. I'm not sure when these landowners rose to power though.

-- Free Peace Sweet!, Monday, 5 November 2007 14:19 (56 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

from the wee bistro round the corner

Which specific bistro - I am visiting soon and wish to know some good places to eat.

Free Peace Sweet - I was about to acknowledge that point actually!

You guys seem more american than most americans i this thread. Honestly, American chain restaurants are way better also.

FUCKING CHILI'S DUDE!!

Now if we're going to take as read that other countries in the world that aren't Britain contain parents with young children, people that work long hours and workers on low incomes, none of this is adequately explaining why there are so many chain stores and restaurants in the UK in relation to other countries.

-- Matt DC, Monday, November 5, 2007 3:15 PM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

i believe that chain restaurants and stores have taken off, in their colonial way, in the US. i recall that one of them was so successful they even own one of the british chains. apparently they sell ammunition and censored rap cds.

but also we work longer hours than those workshy euros, have a more 'urban' skew, lifestyle-wise, and possibly have more women in the workplace (ie not at home).

yeah that together with ed's point about business plans demanding extraordinary growth very quickly has got the ring of truth to it

(that was an xpost to Free Peace Sweet)

Subtext = woman, get back in the kitchen and cook me my dinner entirely sourced from the organic grocers in Hampstead?

Subtext = woman, get back in the kitchen and cook me my dinner entirely sourced from the organic grocers in Hampstead?

-- Matt DC, Monday, November 5, 2007 3:19 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

that's the subtext of this thread, and the daily mail's campaign, yeah!

not of what i was saying.

mmm nigella

Grimly Fiendish - I don't think anyone is blaming people who use or shop at supermarkets or chain stores/restaurants. Is there anybody who doesn't use them (I don't eat at chain restaurants but then I rarely eat out). I don't see anyone looking down on harassed mums taking kids for child-friendly meals here.

I think there is a conflation here between a) supermarkets and the decline of the traditional high street (since recreated inside some supermarkets), and b) chain restaurants and the disappearence of smaller establishments. They may be related but they are not the same thing. The chain restaurant can actually be a revitalizer of the high street (even as it homogenizes), the out of town development can be a death knell for the high street.

Also.. we're not just consumers and customers.. we're providers and suppliers as well

Which specific bistro - I am visiting soon and wish to know some good places to eat.

Glasgow has lots of nice places to eat. And a couple of Pizza Expresses as well :-)

xposts

Which specific bistro - I am visiting soon and wish to know some good places to eat

heh: i was thinking of amalfi, on west nile street, which is awesome (and genuinely is round the corner from a pizza hut). but woah, if you're visiting we need a proper welcoming committee/FAP etc! get thee to "try glasgow more".

Now if we're going to take as read that other countries in the world that aren't Britain contain parents with young children, people that work long hours and workers on low incomes, none of this is adequately explaining why there are so many chain stores and restaurants in the UK in relation to other countries

are there really? i'm not in a position to comment on that, but it sounds ... well, i'd like to see some stats, certainly.

i mean, sure, i have a romantic image of french or italian families sitting en famille in little family-run restaurants, but a) i think the french and italians have a very different relationship with and approach to food, and b) my romantic image might just be a load of old shit.

i would guess that, chain restaurants notwithstanding, we do better diversity-wise than, say, italy or rural france when it comes to food.

cedar: my ire was directed more at newspaper columnists than anyone on this thread in general :)

i've a lot more to say here but i really do need to get on with some work ... will hopefully return later, by which point the discussion will no doubt have shifted by six or seven planes.

speaking of which, FUCKING WETHERSPOONS

david guest was stood outside the regal the other night. CELEB FACT

i think the french and italians have a very different relationship with and approach to food,

This is basically it I think. The chain store mentality is just as strong in France as in the UK for everything except food. Paris still has about 50 farmers' markets because people are actually willing to spend their precious time patronising them (and paying their higher prices).

david guest was stood outside the regal the other night. CELEB FACT

on holloway rd??

and a wee supermarket on every other street

david gest, or a david guest i've not heard of? if the former, lol cheekbones. (tracer, tissp be talking about cambridge)

i actually go to 'spoons' occasionally, normally when the group i'm with winds up there. it's cheap, vast, impersonal, and overcrowded.