Radical Feminism: Discuss

I wanna be more like Trayce.

Side note - orbit, do you know where there archives of early grrrl zines on the web?

Hi! This is the Riot Grrrl Review website!

This site is always kind of fucked up, full of typos, and I post the reviews
late. I am either too busy or too lazy to fix it. This is how it is. Deal.

To see the zine reviews from #2, go here.
To see the zine reviews from #3, go here.
To see the zine reviews from #4, go here.
To see the music reviews, go here.
#1 is out of print, sorry. It's way old, anyway.

Riot Grrrl Review has been on hiatus for a year now, but I'm getting back
into the swing of things. I am going to be in Chicago during May and June
and will be traveling around in July. #5 has been in the works; I work on it
when my schedule/life permits. Thanks for your patience.

Please send me your zines, music, comics, etc. for review, and I will review
them. For those of you unfamiliar with my reviewing policy, Riot Grrrl
Review is for women and girls. Boys can send their zines for consideration,
and I will review what I feel is relevent and list what I like if I don't
see much relevence. I know this is somewhat of a controversial policy.
Suggestions are welcome, but I still do things at my discretion. If you send
material for review, make sure your address and price is on the cover. Send
it to me at Kristy Chan, USF 30334, 4202 E. Fowler Ave., Tampa, FL
33620-3033. The old Fort Myers address is NOT good. I live in Tampa now and
am trying to get everyone to start using the Tampa box.

Classifieds and project listings are coming one day. And so are links that I
owe to all the wonderful webgirls that have linked my site to theirs. I am
really grateful and no one would come here if it wasn't for them, and to
whoever got me listed in Yahoo! where my site comes up

first

when you type in "riot grrrl", THANK YOU!

Oh yeah, I'm actually doing a thank you list here... Thanks in random order
to Mimi Ilano, Matt Wobensmith, Mimi Nguyen, Ericka Bailie, Lauren Martin,
Seth Bogus, Christina Varner, Theresa Mitten, Sarah Gion, Ocean Capewell,
Sarah C. in England, Tamra of Lucid Nation, Ceci Moss, Kelli Williams,
Bianca Ortiz, Laurie Chan, Mike Mitchell, Allison Dority, John Paree, Jen
Wolfe, Asian Takeover boys and girls, Barbie girls, and anyone I forgot -
I'm sorry my memory is so crappy.

Okay, the contest is over. I will announce the winner when I get my shit
together, and give that person their prize, a bag of candy. If you actually
give a shit, the songs are "Whip It" by Devo, "True Colors" by Cyndi Lauper,
the "Bewitched" theme song, "James Bond" theme song, "Violet" by Hole, and
um. I can't think of the rest right now. MIDIs are really dumb, but I love
them, so I'm not taking them off!

Oh yeah, I guess I should plug my shit.. I have a personal zine called
Tennis and Violins. I wrote it last winter when I was really depressed alot.
Some people love it and some people think it's annoying. It has journal
entries, some opinions and stories about racism, classism, being queer, um..
also interviews with Ceci Moss and Matt Outpunk. You can get it in the mail
from me for a few stamps or money or a letter. Whatever you can afford. I
guess it costs me between 65 cents to $1 to make and send each one. Don't
even ask if you can read it on the web or in email because it won't happen.
Tennis and Violins #2 is going to be a split with Suburbia zine by Ceci.
It's going to be 100 pages. My half has travel stories, art/photos, Barbie
stories, an interview with Rachel Carns (the Need, Kicking Giant), and lots
of other stuff. Keep your eyes open for that. I also did a zine called Wild
Honey Pie when I was in high school and middle school. #9 has an interview
with Allison Wolfe (Bratmobile), artsy stuff, info, its kind of random, but
all of it is good reading, I think. It costs $1. #10 is giant, like full
size, a zillion pages. It's $2, and it has interviews with Mark Robinson
(Unrest), Larry Livermore (Lookout!), Wynona Riders (Berkeley punk),
Pietasters (D.C. ska. They're kind of dumb, oh well.), and Dick Lucas (the
singer from Subhumans). Also a shitload of articles and personal writing.
Seth from Puberty Strike likes it!

I also want to encourage you to contribute to these projects I am working
on...
ASIAN TAKEOVER - I am compiling a zine by Asian people about racism,
identity, history, assimilation, etc. This is real. I am going to put this
out. I have already gotten a substantial amount of material, but you can
send stuff in while I'm too busy to print this sucker. Send me your art,
photos, text, poetry, life story.
100 BARBIE GIRLS CAN'T BE WRONG! - Answer this question - How did you play
with your Barbie dolls?

Read about me and my many obsessions.
Mimi does this ace site with Asian/Pacific Islander American feminist
resources, her solid critiques of punk, material she reads, etc. This is not
something you want to miss.
Ericka does Pander zine distro and the ever-amazing Power Candy zine, about
her life, mental illness, all sorts of things. Both very cool projects.
Mike is a friend of mine. His page is about punk and stuff.
Russell has a site about comics, Bis, and teen DIY projects.
Sign My Guestbook but keep in mind that I just check it for comments, and if
you want a reply, I recommend e-mailing me, instead. This is also a good
place to plug your shit or start dialogue until I figure out how to make a
message board or something like that, if that's what you want to do.
View My Guestbook
e-mail me
You are visitor number [Image] since Feb. 27, 1997. Wow!

anti©opyright 1998

Ironically, I have been known to be more intimidated by other women, but thats more to do with being bullied by them in school, and betrayed by female friends later in life. But I'm over all that now anyway.

Well I didn't have a Ken doll, they had to make do SOMEhow!

point being it's more complex than you were giving it credit for, that's all/

In what way is it more complex? You can't leave a statement like that hanging unqualified.

Many variants of radical feminism however, strive towards what is called "equalism", meaning different groups plat an equal part on decisionmaking and self-determination. The emphasis is on dialog between and among different interest groups to arrive at a concensus. It's not always a comfortable process, but what is being sought is a world that is constructed to take the needs of all kinds of people into account.

Feminism has a part to play where gender inequality is significant, but in western societies we are past that stage in our development. Yes some inequalities remain but society is generally aware and concerns itself with eradicating these inequalities. Gender inequality and even racial inequalities are far less significant than class and economic inequalities. Scoop everyone up from the bottom, and if there are more disadvantaged women, or blacks or whatever then you will scoop up more women blacks or whatever.

In striving foe equality why restrict your group to 50% of the population, smells like sexism to me.

I do disagree with you statement that experiences across gender are common. They are not. You never got your first period, You never had a perv grab your tits. You never had to wonder was that guy looking at your chest or at you. Experiences are different, When I walk into a room and there is a porn mag on the table it affects me differently from how it affects you because I am female and have grown up in a sexist society. I could go on for pages, but the experience of growing up a boy is very different from growing up a girl, This is old territory, its been covered a million times, and no one disputes it any more. I am not trying to be dismissive, and after I've had some sleep I could post a reading list or something and we could pick up the conversation later if you are interested.

In some cases, in fact, they've worsened social attitudes. I can only really speak for the UK educational system, but there's a big problem there with the fact that girls tend to do better than boys in Key Stage SATs, GCSEs, and A-Levels (although at University there's, I believe, a reversal). There are scads of measures in place to increase boys' attainment, but meanwhile many working-class young men aren't getting the best jobs they potentially could have because women are often better qualified. Which leads to more resentment, and more disenfranchisement of working-class males, and that's surely counter-productive.

I've got some stuff to do today but I will get back to this point later.

(x-post)

I’ll give an example of ‘restrict groups by gender’ (though I don’t know if it’s the sort of thing Ed was talking about).
This weekend I’m going to Ladyfest Manchester and one of the workshops I’d really like to go to, in fact the only one I really want to go to is a drumming workshop which I’m banned from because I’m not a girl!
I’m semi-furious, I pay exactly the same as everyone who can go.

I think they want to keep out men cause they think they might make it intimidating for the women, but I’m easily intimidated too.
I can kind of see where they’re coming from but I wanna go!
*throws rattle*.

Practically, what should I do? Is there anything I can do?

I think experiences are broadly common though there are differences.
I never got my first period but I did have a first wet dream; I never had a ‘perv’ grab my tits but I did have a (female) ‘perv’ grab my bottom; I never wondered was a guy looking at my chest (which would be part of me) but I’ve wondered was someone looking at my puppy fat.

When I walk into a room and see a porn mag on a table it effect me different to how it effects you because we are different PEOPLE, not because we are different sexes/genders. I’m interested in porn mags than most men I know. I know several women who really do like porn.

How do you know the experience of growing up a boy is so different to your own experience? When did YOU grow up a boy?

-- Andrew Thames (cleanbridge...), September 2nd, 2003.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

GRRRRR!!!
Anyway, I’m only going so I can cure me some Lesbians!

Have you not learned anything from sitcoms, mei?

-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 2nd, 2003.

What, you mean I should dress up as a woman and sneak in?
Hmmm. That might help me with the lesbians too...

(Humour Alert – I AM JOKING)

Meant to say I'm LESS interested in porn mags than most men.

I'm not saying I don't like pornography at all, but the realy artificial stuff I've seen in mags, with it's participants obviously not enjoying it, isn't a big turn on.

To respond to the porn question, I'm not at all uncomfortable about porn personally, except when it appears unwanted around say, the parents or at work or something, but hell, I have been known to look at porn and enjoy it! FWIW.

ed do you think legislating against racial and gender inequality actually works or something?

In striving foe equality why restrict your group to 50% of the population, smells like sexism to me

who is doing that? when women say WE WANT EQUALITY, why is it often read into as "we want equality but not for men"? if men feel oppressed, shouldn't they organise their own shit, like women have had to? most feminists want equality for men and women, thats what equality means!

also, if you think class oppression is more crucial in western society than racial or gender oppression, i can only think you have your head in the sand. NB class oppression IS important but i think your prioritizing of some oppressions against others is very monofocussed.

although i was taught the open chords from a male, i can definitely attest to the comfort of having no men around when i learned to play guitar. i felt less judged. there are still a lot of assumptions about women playing instruments which circulate, to this very day when i go to the rock shop and ask for a guitar string the male staff ALWAYS assume i mean an acoustic string...

Maybe I didn't read this thread correctly...

But I'm not and I've not hidden it, I thought I mentioned it up above somewhere and if not it's definitely on another thread from the last few days and I've said it before on ILM/ILE.

I think I probably fit the male stereotype less than most men.

The reasons that TLML gives for me being barred from the drumming workshop are exactly those I imagined, and they are really understandable, which is why I'm not really angry at being barred. I can totally see their point of view.

But many men, including me feel harassed by male musicians while learning or practising. I can play the drums a bit already (and guitar, bass etc) but I've never been taught by anyone. That's partially because I'd be intimidating.
I also find it very hard to go into a music shop and try out an instrument or ask for advice, I get the feeling the ppl in there would be looking down their nose ar me. I hate the thought of picking up a guitar and them listening to what I was playing - eeek!
Most ppl just play some rubbish metal riff to try and impress and that is totally not me.

I think maybe the confusion isn't helped by my name. I'm Welsh and my name is Meirion (which is in my email adress) but no one can say that properly, including me, so everyone just calls me Mei.

TLML - you should go in and straight away say:
"I'd like a single 52 please. Steel core with brass/nickel. Round wound, bullet end."
See what they say then. They probably won't even know what all of that means.

"I'd like a single 52 please. Steel core with brass/nickel. Round wound, bullet end."

haha i should probably find out what all that means before i test it out!

No where have I said , nor do I believe that I have inferred, that I believe feminists desire to see women gain equality at the expense of men. The very word equality precludes this. Femenism grates against my humanism not because it wants to overtake men, but because its perspective on society seems no longer relevant, if it ever was. It seems far better to fight for the equality of humanity and human rights as a collective whole, than fighting for the rights of one group at a time.

The problems facing society today are largely not of gender but of class and economics. The barriers facing middle class women in western society are no greater than those facing men, this is a very general statement, but broadly it's true and the middle classes and up have the best access to the mechanisms designed to rectify any imbalances. I don't really see many problems here. OK so there are inequalities but over time these are ironing themselves, out, there will never be 50:50 parity in all areas of life but broadly this will be the case (I'm talking about maybe 60% of care workers being men whilst 60% of teachers being women, that sort of thing). There's some tidying to do, a bit more paternity leave here, a bit more support for working mothers there.

I'll get onto the cultural points in a bit.

As we cast down the social spectrum the problems faced aren't really gender specific, its shit weather you're male, female, black or white society needs to solve the socio -economic problems. Socio-Economic oppression encompasses all others. its not being mono-focused at all. If you look at where racial and sexual inequality is at its worst it is at the bottom. Solving socio-economic problems is going to go a long way to alleviating the situation of the most oppressed women in society.

One of the oft cited examples is of academic achievement. In the UK girls do better than boys at the age of 16 but then boys do better at 18 and at university. However, if one looks at the statistics, one sees that although this is true the difference in achievement between kids of different socio-economic backgrounds is far greater than any gender differences. How well you do in society comes down to money and that's a much bigger inequality than anything brought on by gender or race.

Aside from this we have the whole problem of gender in culture.

The biggest problem being that, after a little improvement in the 80s and early 90s comodification and objectification of women is now worse than ever. What's more it's extending to men in both similar and different ways. Now far be it from me to say that the male form is exploited in the same way or as mercilessly as the female form but it is there and its growing. Its not just about sex and bodies, some people are willing to allow access to every minute aspect of there life just to gain the faint hope of fame and fortune. The lure for women (and for men) is economic (and to a certain extent narcissistic), the rewards can be high if you're lucky. If you're unlucky the price can be high.

However these problems are again best tackled from a humanist rather than feminist stand point. Concentration on the objectification of women leaves out the fact that the objectification of men is growing quietly in the background. Much better to fight the base comodification of human existence, and experience from a position of unity.

Men and women aren't all that different and the male and female experience in modern society is not all that different. To answer Orbits, point above, it's just as hard growing up a boy as it is growing up a girl,soem experiences may differ, but are they all that different?

(((((((a little point to answer

I've got no problems with women only classes etc. In fact I've even taught some myself (Axing, (Chopping Wood)). It can be highly valuable to learn something in the absence of people who think they know what they are doing (but more often than not, don't).)))))))

I do apologise for the rambling and incoherent nature of this post. i had it all sorted out in my head as i was walking round london this morning but I was on my way to buy a new notebook so I neglected to write any of it down.