Radical Feminism: Discuss

In some cases, in fact, they've worsened social attitudes. I can only really speak for the UK educational system, but there's a big problem there with the fact that girls tend to do better than boys in Key Stage SATs, GCSEs, and A-Levels (although at University there's, I believe, a reversal). There are scads of measures in place to increase boys' attainment, but meanwhile many working-class young men aren't getting the best jobs they potentially could have because women are often better qualified. Which leads to more resentment, and more disenfranchisement of working-class males, and that's surely counter-productive.

I've got some stuff to do today but I will get back to this point later.

(x-post)

I’ll give an example of ‘restrict groups by gender’ (though I don’t know if it’s the sort of thing Ed was talking about).
This weekend I’m going to Ladyfest Manchester and one of the workshops I’d really like to go to, in fact the only one I really want to go to is a drumming workshop which I’m banned from because I’m not a girl!
I’m semi-furious, I pay exactly the same as everyone who can go.

I think they want to keep out men cause they think they might make it intimidating for the women, but I’m easily intimidated too.
I can kind of see where they’re coming from but I wanna go!
*throws rattle*.

Practically, what should I do? Is there anything I can do?

I think experiences are broadly common though there are differences.
I never got my first period but I did have a first wet dream; I never had a ‘perv’ grab my tits but I did have a (female) ‘perv’ grab my bottom; I never wondered was a guy looking at my chest (which would be part of me) but I’ve wondered was someone looking at my puppy fat.

When I walk into a room and see a porn mag on a table it effect me different to how it effects you because we are different PEOPLE, not because we are different sexes/genders. I’m interested in porn mags than most men I know. I know several women who really do like porn.

How do you know the experience of growing up a boy is so different to your own experience? When did YOU grow up a boy?

-- Andrew Thames (cleanbridge...), September 2nd, 2003.
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GRRRRR!!!
Anyway, I’m only going so I can cure me some Lesbians!

Have you not learned anything from sitcoms, mei?

-- oops (don'temailmenicelad...), September 2nd, 2003.

What, you mean I should dress up as a woman and sneak in?
Hmmm. That might help me with the lesbians too...

(Humour Alert – I AM JOKING)

Meant to say I'm LESS interested in porn mags than most men.

I'm not saying I don't like pornography at all, but the realy artificial stuff I've seen in mags, with it's participants obviously not enjoying it, isn't a big turn on.

To respond to the porn question, I'm not at all uncomfortable about porn personally, except when it appears unwanted around say, the parents or at work or something, but hell, I have been known to look at porn and enjoy it! FWIW.

ed do you think legislating against racial and gender inequality actually works or something?

In striving foe equality why restrict your group to 50% of the population, smells like sexism to me

who is doing that? when women say WE WANT EQUALITY, why is it often read into as "we want equality but not for men"? if men feel oppressed, shouldn't they organise their own shit, like women have had to? most feminists want equality for men and women, thats what equality means!

also, if you think class oppression is more crucial in western society than racial or gender oppression, i can only think you have your head in the sand. NB class oppression IS important but i think your prioritizing of some oppressions against others is very monofocussed.

although i was taught the open chords from a male, i can definitely attest to the comfort of having no men around when i learned to play guitar. i felt less judged. there are still a lot of assumptions about women playing instruments which circulate, to this very day when i go to the rock shop and ask for a guitar string the male staff ALWAYS assume i mean an acoustic string...

Maybe I didn't read this thread correctly...

But I'm not and I've not hidden it, I thought I mentioned it up above somewhere and if not it's definitely on another thread from the last few days and I've said it before on ILM/ILE.

I think I probably fit the male stereotype less than most men.

The reasons that TLML gives for me being barred from the drumming workshop are exactly those I imagined, and they are really understandable, which is why I'm not really angry at being barred. I can totally see their point of view.

But many men, including me feel harassed by male musicians while learning or practising. I can play the drums a bit already (and guitar, bass etc) but I've never been taught by anyone. That's partially because I'd be intimidating.
I also find it very hard to go into a music shop and try out an instrument or ask for advice, I get the feeling the ppl in there would be looking down their nose ar me. I hate the thought of picking up a guitar and them listening to what I was playing - eeek!
Most ppl just play some rubbish metal riff to try and impress and that is totally not me.

I think maybe the confusion isn't helped by my name. I'm Welsh and my name is Meirion (which is in my email adress) but no one can say that properly, including me, so everyone just calls me Mei.

TLML - you should go in and straight away say:
"I'd like a single 52 please. Steel core with brass/nickel. Round wound, bullet end."
See what they say then. They probably won't even know what all of that means.

"I'd like a single 52 please. Steel core with brass/nickel. Round wound, bullet end."

haha i should probably find out what all that means before i test it out!

No where have I said , nor do I believe that I have inferred, that I believe feminists desire to see women gain equality at the expense of men. The very word equality precludes this. Femenism grates against my humanism not because it wants to overtake men, but because its perspective on society seems no longer relevant, if it ever was. It seems far better to fight for the equality of humanity and human rights as a collective whole, than fighting for the rights of one group at a time.

The problems facing society today are largely not of gender but of class and economics. The barriers facing middle class women in western society are no greater than those facing men, this is a very general statement, but broadly it's true and the middle classes and up have the best access to the mechanisms designed to rectify any imbalances. I don't really see many problems here. OK so there are inequalities but over time these are ironing themselves, out, there will never be 50:50 parity in all areas of life but broadly this will be the case (I'm talking about maybe 60% of care workers being men whilst 60% of teachers being women, that sort of thing). There's some tidying to do, a bit more paternity leave here, a bit more support for working mothers there.

I'll get onto the cultural points in a bit.

As we cast down the social spectrum the problems faced aren't really gender specific, its shit weather you're male, female, black or white society needs to solve the socio -economic problems. Socio-Economic oppression encompasses all others. its not being mono-focused at all. If you look at where racial and sexual inequality is at its worst it is at the bottom. Solving socio-economic problems is going to go a long way to alleviating the situation of the most oppressed women in society.

One of the oft cited examples is of academic achievement. In the UK girls do better than boys at the age of 16 but then boys do better at 18 and at university. However, if one looks at the statistics, one sees that although this is true the difference in achievement between kids of different socio-economic backgrounds is far greater than any gender differences. How well you do in society comes down to money and that's a much bigger inequality than anything brought on by gender or race.

Aside from this we have the whole problem of gender in culture.

The biggest problem being that, after a little improvement in the 80s and early 90s comodification and objectification of women is now worse than ever. What's more it's extending to men in both similar and different ways. Now far be it from me to say that the male form is exploited in the same way or as mercilessly as the female form but it is there and its growing. Its not just about sex and bodies, some people are willing to allow access to every minute aspect of there life just to gain the faint hope of fame and fortune. The lure for women (and for men) is economic (and to a certain extent narcissistic), the rewards can be high if you're lucky. If you're unlucky the price can be high.

However these problems are again best tackled from a humanist rather than feminist stand point. Concentration on the objectification of women leaves out the fact that the objectification of men is growing quietly in the background. Much better to fight the base comodification of human existence, and experience from a position of unity.

Men and women aren't all that different and the male and female experience in modern society is not all that different. To answer Orbits, point above, it's just as hard growing up a boy as it is growing up a girl,soem experiences may differ, but are they all that different?

(((((((a little point to answer

I've got no problems with women only classes etc. In fact I've even taught some myself (Axing, (Chopping Wood)). It can be highly valuable to learn something in the absence of people who think they know what they are doing (but more often than not, don't).)))))))

I do apologise for the rambling and incoherent nature of this post. i had it all sorted out in my head as i was walking round london this morning but I was on my way to buy a new notebook so I neglected to write any of it down.

i disagree with this. i think it is important for politics to be micro and incremental, rather than overaching and universalist. also, specificities provide relevance for people, and meaning, and context, and something peple can relate to

i have no idea why you are suggesting that women and men face very little difference in the workplace, it makes me wonder if you have ever worked in the real world, the institutional sexism that keeps many professions overwhelmingly male is plain to see, especially if you work for a company and look who gets hired for what.

i dont agree with fighting the whole battle at once, politics is incremental and different people need to improved different aspects. fragmentation of politics neednt be a bad thing

I can't believe no one picked up on this... this piece o' post-feminist sloganeering actually comes from Billie Piper.

I would love it if I had more time right now, because then I could contribute something good to this thread, but as things are I'll just point out that Andrea Dworkin is incredibly, stupidly myopic and is only saved from her otherwise irredeemable bintishness by not being Catherine MacKinnon, and that emphasising difference and victimhood is a dead-end way to ultimately self-defeating self-ghettoisation.

I love my sisters and want to stick by them, but I also love my brothers too and also want to stick by them. I am a humanist. I want fairness for ALL and victimhood for NONE.

cultural feminism: can be utopian or liberal (in the classic sense, change within the existing social system is possible). if only you change our culture so that things are not constructed in such a violent, male-centered, war-culture way then all people would be liberated from chains that bind them. If government culture were changed to emphasize consensus decisionmaking rather than power and hierarchy; if single mothers were given social support instead of being branded sluts and welfare queens etc. A change in the culture, in how we look at things, construct things, think of things.

In terms of RG, mei, the separatist argument has been done to death, and there are several different takes on it. You can see the usenet type arguments by googling for Riot Grrrl chapters and discussion boards on the web. I really don't want to get into it here, it's just boring for me in a been, there, done that a million times kinda way, and no i'm not being elitist i'm just being honest and no i am not trying to put anyone down.

Ed, your position that women really don't have it much worse than men is completely mental. Men suffer from the normative nature of sexual roles, but women's suffering and oppression is still there. Look at any serious study of violence within relationships, look at any study on rape, on murder in the home, and it is unmistakeable that feminism has many battles still to fight and win. The fact that poverty is a bad thing does not mean that women don't have plenty of extra ground to gain.

saying you're more interested in issue a than issue b is one thing, but denying that issue b even exists and that issue a is the only one anyone should care is so arrogant and naive.

-- Orbit (cstarrcstar...), September 2nd, 2003.

So what should I do in this particular case?

Liek to add my support for the idea that feminism is not about gaining equality for women by standing on the heads of other groups that are discriminated against. It's just saying this is one issue I can identify and wish to address.