The other argument, which I think is specious, is an anger at people at certain schools because they're rich. And a presumption that because they're rich, they're also unqualified, lazy, stupid, whatever. That certainly wasn't my experience, and I don't think it holds up statistically, as if such a thing could ever be empirically measured. Even the ivies can't afford to admit too many stupid rich people. They don't need to. They're are plenty of smart rich legacies to admit.
― Skottie, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:42 (twenty years ago) link
We have our ways.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:43 (twenty years ago) link
"Not income alone" = what I said. That's where the difference is. The numbers I cited to start with aren't tied solely to income, and income is only one factor. What's your argument here? By their numbers 3%, based on income-only 10% - in either case, still putting the lower incomes at a disadvantage.
You're arguing that the Ivies are evil because only 10% of students at 146 schools come from the bottom two quartiles. The Pell grant information reveals that at every Ivy but Princeton 10% or more come from an even lower-income sample.No, I didn't argue that. I cited a study, which you seem to have read, that states that 3% come from the bottom quartile (not quartiles), not based solely on income.
Once more, the Pell Grant isn't applicable. It has nothing to do with the SES stats this was written with. And, at $35k in the upper-limit, goes beyond the lowest 20-25% of family incomes.
But, just to cover this once more -
By the study cited, 3% come from the bottom quarter.By your argument, choosing to limit it solely to Ivies, 10% come from the bottom ~35%.
Meaning - drumroll please - the Ivies (or the 146 most prestigious, either one), still place the worse off among us at a disadvantage. The extent of your disagreement is "well, it's not that bad." It's still a disadvantage.
(several x-posts)Bullshit, Skottie, that had nothing to do with insinuations of racism. It's about the question being asked. "Well, the Ivies are bad here, BUT SO ARE THESE SCHOOLS." That's the same argument as "Well, yes, whites are racist, BUT SO ARE BLACK PEOPLE."
No one disagrees that there are black racists, but they aren't an issue. There's no widespread disadvantage for whites because of black racism.
Likewise, Ohio State's legacy admissions really don't mean anything - it's a 35k+ campus that isn't limited in socioeconomic status, and on top of that carries no special cachet as a name. Pretending the 'elite' schools are just like any other requires a lot of dancing around.
Gabbneb, once more, why do you continue to conflate the study with Pell Grant numbers? You can't make them analgous, because the Pell Grants don't take any other factors into consideration.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:43 (twenty years ago) link
If you're motivated enough to get to a certain school, you may be motivated enough to get a certain job, get your book published, whatever.
Wow, you're a big believer in 'meritocracy', aren't you? I better get off this thread, because frankly, you're confirming a lot of stereotypes.
Gabbneb, I'm well-aware that the colleges would not survive if they didn't let people in who could afford the full tuition. My only point is that not everyone is there because of 'merit' - it doesn't stop people from being impressed because so-and-so went to an 'elite' school.
Consider Howard Dean, John Kerry, G.H.W. Bush, G.W. Bush, Al Gore. All have similar backgrounds. Didn't all turn out the same way,
Oh my god, you can't be serious!
― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:44 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:45 (twenty years ago) link
How can someone come out of Yale and not be able to understand someone else's argument?
This failure to 'understand' is exactly what pissed me off when I was in college. It is not about money. It is about people with enormous educational privileges who take them for granted.
I already told you once that I don't assume that all 'rich' people are unqualified. Just keep on misrepresenting my arguments.
How ironic that the same crap that annoyed me in college is annoying me on this very thread. I need to log off now and watch 'American Idol'.
― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:50 (twenty years ago) link
Got me. You're right. I'm not serious about that. I do think they turned out surprisingly similarly.
There's no widespread disadvantage for whites because of black racism.
Likewise, Ohio State's legacy admissions really don't mean anything - Yes, yes, I understand that. I'm sorry. That was directed to the "second line of discussion. To wit: I would imagine so. In my experience, the dumbest kids at school were the richest ones - they didn't have to work to compete - they got legacies, or their daddies gave lots of money to the school. Those were the ones who sat around their dorms all day getting drunk or snorting coke.
― Skottie, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:56 (twenty years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:58 (twenty years ago) link
Sorry. I don't mean to. I will stop.
Zey laughed at me at zee university, but zey'll see ven I perform my song on American Idol!!! AAAAaaahhh hhaaaaaaa haaaaaa!
― Skottie, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 01:58 (twenty years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 02:18 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1063268554051_2003/09/12/Psych,0.jpg
― gabbzay (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 02:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Skottie, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 02:32 (twenty years ago) link
― Skottie, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 02:35 (twenty years ago) link
Pell grants and the study's SES-based statistics are not analgous, in any way, shape or form.
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 02:56 (twenty years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:06 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:10 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 03:12 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.clairedanes.net/imgs/misc4.jpg
And such early promise
http://clairedanes.gmxhome.de/wanted/francaise.jpg
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:39 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.bryanspage.com/Lauryn.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:46 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.delos.fantascienza.com/delos57/img/duchovny/duchovny.jpg
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:48 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.capitalcentury.com/youngfitz.gif
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:50 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:53 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.rockcritics.com/christgau2small.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:55 (twenty years ago) link
http://incolor.inebraska.com/sumaree/beatles/images/dryoko_a.jpg
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:57 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/movie/sunshine_state/angela_bassett_01.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 05:58 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/english/ms-writers/dir/faulkner_william/hollywood.jpg
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:06 (twenty years ago) link
http://www28.brinkster.com/1082/images/episodios/308.jpg
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:13 (twenty years ago) link
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:14 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.heavenlycelebrities.com/Pics/Julia%20Stiles/Album/julia266.jpg
http://www.onlygoodmovies.net/celebrities/n_portman/images/nat_07_jpg.jpg
This obviously doesn't actually prove the worth of the Ivy Leagues but quite honestly most of the people I've met at Columbia are no brighter than a box of nails so this is the best defense I have to offer.
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:20 (twenty years ago) link
http://my.netian.com/~t2man/soundtrack/80s/Flashdance.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:21 (twenty years ago) link
(I got Brown.)
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:23 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.raquenel.com/different/bonet1b.jpg
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:32 (twenty years ago) link
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:34 (twenty years ago) link
x-post
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:36 (twenty years ago) link
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:43 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.raptiye.com/images/Christopher-Reeve.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:48 (twenty years ago) link
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/pino22/immaginicelebries/bTF%20Superman%20Dean%20Cain.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:50 (twenty years ago) link
― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:52 (twenty years ago) link
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:54 (twenty years ago) link
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V115/N13/chomsky.gif
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:54 (twenty years ago) link
and first one who posts river cuomo gets xferred to SUNY-purchase or rutgers-camden.
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:59 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/r/pics/robeson-paul.jpg
― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 07:02 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.toughpigs.com/extraweezer15.jpg
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 07:04 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 07:06 (twenty years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 07:07 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.toontracker.com/magoo/magoo-1.gif
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 07:10 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9804/22/bitch.wurtzel/cover.bitch.jpg
― Allyzay, Wednesday, 10 March 2004 07:23 (twenty years ago) link