― Penelope_111 (Penelope_111), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 19:58 (twenty years ago) link
Because it won't ever be honored. Because it's unrealistic. It's like expecting that you can walk down the street having a conversation with the person next to you, or on the other end of your cell phone, without people listening. It's unrestricted space, and it's explicitly and visibly unrestricted space: it isn't possible to occupy it without being aware of that.
It's like expecting that those eavesdroppers -- whether they mean to be or not -- will never tell other people what they heard you talking about, nor post it to "In Passing," nor in their book about People Saying The Darndest Things, or whatever.
It might be a reasonable requirement of courtesy, but like it or not, courtesy beyond a certain point isn't a reasonable expectation. It just doesn't happen. It isn't something given by default.
It's not like this is new. The profit involved should be irrelevant, and seems to be irrelevant to most peoples' concerns: would they object to someone printing out a thread at Kinko's to read at work? That's all CafePress does: they print it out. They make no claims to copyright or ownership (they do require that their clients possess copyright to the work they're printing; it's never been clear they need to). So the concern is either empty principle or has to do with privacy: not wanting to be read by people you don't know are reading, or aren't answerable to the ILX community, or whatever.
How is it any different from printing out a thread and showing it to a spouse or coworker? Or letting them read your screen? Or the lurkers who read everything anyway?
I'm not saying it isn't okay to be bothered by it, although it's probably clear it doesn't bother me; I'm saying it's not reasonable to expect people to act accordingly, because they haven't been, and they aren't going to start.
(The odds that anyone who's been active in popular online places for a few years hasn't been reprinted somewhere without their consent or knowledge are not great.)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 19:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:02 (twenty years ago) link
― Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago) link
'Are you taking out email addresses or the names or what exactly?'
Mark hasn't ans this.
I didn't see any harm mostly bcz the threads selected (ILE) were harmless stuff, ilm would be a far more serious issue bcz there are ppl who make a living out of writing whereas the stuff selected here is not like that.
see you soon j0hn.
massive x-post
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:05 (twenty years ago) link
― deanomgwtf!!!p%3Fmsgid%3D4581997 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:05 (twenty years ago) link
Why? This is a print on demand service, one no more public than here -- and harder to find. The word "book" doesn't have magic powers that make it different from "printout."
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:07 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/
'Welcome to our marketplace of over 3 million member-created products ranging from custom-designed T shirts to posters and books...'
This is like going to Kinko's and printing out a webpage, then circulating it amongst a few friends. Relax!
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:07 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:09 (twenty years ago) link
I still think Mark should have asked. I could have got the Bee Vibrator thread in if he had.
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:09 (twenty years ago) link
― swoop, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:09 (twenty years ago) link
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Penelope_111 (Penelope_111), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:10 (twenty years ago) link
WITH A FOURTEEN CENT PROFIT!
― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:11 (twenty years ago) link
Nick: Sorry, Kinko's was the only chain name I could think of; a photocopy shop, in other words.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:12 (twenty years ago) link
― todd swiss (eliti), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:12 (twenty years ago) link
Tep: So your friends are paying Kinko's for the copies, then?
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago) link
x-post
― don maynard (don maynard), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago) link
let's hire a hitman to kill jon williams:http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=4756047http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=4773376
..and redefining 'enormous' onHow are they going to end ILX?
I will match every dollar raised with one towards a hitman.
-- Andrew Farrell (afarrel...), June 22nd, 2004 3:57 PM. (afarrell) (tracklink) (later)
Remember that pot we have for collecting money for a hit man? Can I contribute about £1000, please? -- People love Gravity and Evolution! (masonicboo...), June 23rd, 2004 9:26 AM. (kate) (later)
Well a ferry ride to Rochester is $55, we could outfit Sean in a trenchcoat for another $50... -- Mr Noodles (infinitecow...), June 23rd, 2004 11:22 AM. (Mr Noodles) (later)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:14 (twenty years ago) link
This is cutting and pasting, though; the "phone conversation" here takes place in full view of a tape recorder kept in a public place so everyone who wants to listen to it has access to it.
It would be okay if Mark did this for free, but not if he asks people to pay cost?
(That isn't what it sounds like people are saying.)
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago) link
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago) link
As an aside, at what point in the conversation did I give the impression that I was completely unaware that Kinko's charges you for making copies? I would really like to avoid appearing like a complete and total moron in the future.
(AKA FOR FUCK'S SAKE)
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:16 (twenty years ago) link
I think a few people are severely overreacting. This is like "Pump Up the Volume" almost.
"Talk hard, Momus!"
― Homosexual II, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:17 (twenty years ago) link
-- VengaDan Perry (webmail), June 23rd, 2004 4:13 PM. (Dan Perry) (later)AND MADE A FOURTEEN CENT PROFIT?
― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:18 (twenty years ago) link
May I provide links to other sites on my Web Page?
This topic is debated often and no clear resolution has emerged. Unless you are given express permission to link to a site, you should contact the owner of the other site and obtain their permission before you do so.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:23 (twenty years ago) link
What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I'm giving Mark the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he did this out of cluelessness and a general ignorance of online tact, rather than out of some impulse to cause harm and hurt people. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case all the ire is justified.
― Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:23 (twenty years ago) link
I don't think you're a moron -- I addressed you, but I was talking to the thread, too, or I would've just emailed you. Not everyone knew what Kinko's was; I was trying to make the comparison clear, that CafePress is just a high-end photocopying service. So many of the complaints upthread are incredibly vague that it doesn't seem at all clear that people object for the same reason, or even agree with each others' objections.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:24 (twenty years ago) link
also, what about people who link to ilx in their blogs?
― artdamages (artdamages), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:25 (twenty years ago) link
ILX Mods plot Jon Williams death via hitman! [aka Bored Of The Flies 2004]
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:25 (twenty years ago) link
'Although it is illegal and an infringement of your copyright for someone to copy your work without your permission, the reality is that it is very easy for someone to do. It is possible to limit the systems that can access your site, for example, only UC computers could gain access; or set up a password system to allow only certain users to the site. You should place a copyright notice on the work and advise browsers what they may and may not do with your work. None of these approaches will prevent someone from copying your works off your site. In short, if you have something very valuable that you don't want people to use, don't put it on your web page.'
© Copyright 2001 The Regents of the University of California, All Rights Reserved.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago) link
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago) link
I mean, sure, I can understand the general idea that things posted here are being willingly thrown out into the ether to be viewed by whoever happens to come across them; most of us use handles anyway and aren’t writing anything that’s particularly dear to us. But ILX has attracted a whole lot of people whose names and reputations are directly tied to the work they do. Which has always made me really happy --- that someone like John or the countless working-critics on ILM could join freely into the discussions without worrying that they were engaging in anything other than some casual in-house banter. Everyone’s always respected that on here; this whole book idea, whether anyone looks at it or not, basically knifes the idea that even the most explicit of our protections on here --- the clearly-stated copyright --- will mean anything to anyone. You may not care what happens to the stuff you post, but some people do, period.
Beyond which c’mon: it’s just illegal! You can't do this; you can't search up everything John ever wrote and publish “First Pl4ne to J4karta: The Collected Works of J0hn D4rneille”; you can't just wholesale print and bind Simon Reynolds’ blog, either. You write content here; it stays here. If people want to read it on the toilet, all they need are printers and heavy-duty staplers.
― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:28 (twenty years ago) link
― nabiscothingy, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Penelope_111 (Penelope_111), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:32 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:33 (twenty years ago) link
But it isn't a Jay-Z album. I don't want to dismiss your analogy, because I agree with part of it, but there's an important difference between "words by people who sell words" and "sellable words by people who sell words, written with the intent of making money from them."
The other difference -- regardless of that part of the analogy -- is that you can also make CafePress pages semi-private, so they're not listed in the directory or their internal search engines; no one finds them unless they're given the link. (I don't know if they're googleproofed; what would people google in this case?) Mark hasn't gone around "advertising" this. Even if he had, the page tells you virtually nothing about what's involved; no one who isn't familiar with ILX would have any reason or incentive to buy it.
I'm not arguing Mark had the right to put this together, although I don't think any harm has been done; I just think the response is completely disproportionate, and possibly in places not very considered.
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago) link
― Clarke B. (Clarke B.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Scott CE (Scott CE), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:36 (twenty years ago) link