Spielberg & Kushner's Munich '72 / Israeli vengeance film

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I didn't see Hounsou or Wooderson in Saving Private Ryan, oddly enough. Maybe I missed them.
-- Are You Nomar? (wooderso...), November 7th, 2005.

am slightly mystified by this comment. do you mean the platoon in 'SPR' was too white? cos that's kind of how it went down, segregation-wise.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 10:16 (eighteen years ago) link

I think the pro-Zionist "jingoes" ("Munich" isn't about America, either) will be ready to fire upon a film co-written by the most prominent neo-socialist anti-Likud New York Jewish queer playwright of his time.

>will this be another SPR? The appearance of being a hard-hitting, morally-complicated adult movie that turns into a jingoistic afternoon serial? <

SPR ain't perfect -- I'd heave this Williams score, among others -- but how the fuck is it jingoistic, when it raises morality-on-the-battlefield questions in the middle of The Good War? Cuz it opens and closes with shots of the Stars and Stripes, looking rather washed out with the sun behind it?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 14:16 (eighteen years ago) link

"but how the fuck is it jingoistic, when it raises morality-on-the-battlefield questions in the middle of The Good War"

How does the latter contradict the former (at ALL)? I'd heave the entirity of SPR. Bad music, poor editing, poorer acting, hamfisted plot, tons of NATIONALIST RAH RAH stuff (and a handy-dandy LOOK DAS GERMANS ARE EVIL scenes to boot.) There are Spielberg films I can tolerate, but his "serious" films are without fail predominantly garbage. They aren't even fun.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 16:46 (eighteen years ago) link

where is the nationalist rah-rah?

as for 'i need more moral ambiguity with my nazis' -- why?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Ditto! Examples of 'nationalist rah rah' scenes, please, you Lindbergh! Glittering Generalities can go on to infinity.

(wait, Alex doesn't like John Ford either, right?)

Ed Burns is rather evil as well.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

come on, how can you say the scenes with ryan's buxom blonde all-american family in the cemeterary weren't jingoistic? they were pure propaganda

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

does everybody who hates the jingoism in saving private ryan also hate indiana jones?

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 16:54 (eighteen years ago) link

they're kind of bookends. they're cheesy. but propaganda for what? in what way "nationalist"? how is swning the nazis jingoistic? (i'm british so kind of have a more emotive anti-nazi reaction? it was the Good War afaic.)

xpost

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I have no problems with the portraying the Nazi party as cartoonishly evil in a cartoon-y movie (see Indiana Jones), but the deceitful/evil German soldier in SPR is totally ridiculous (and it's a terrible plot point to boot.) SPR sucks for so many reasons, but seriously the whole movie is one giant affirmation of "hey this was a Good War", "the Americans are good guys" and the "Germans were evil SOBs who got what was coming to them". That's textbook jingoism, people.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't remember much of SPR other than the actors all bored me, and I was wondering when the opening sequence was going to end, to be honest. I neither hate nor like SPR.

― Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:03 (eighteen years ago) link

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000648ZR.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:03 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, there were no blond families in the Army, I spose. Shameless jingoism.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:04 (eighteen years ago) link

way to misread what he's getting at, dude!

― Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:05 (eighteen years ago) link

am slightly mystified by this comment. do you mean the platoon in 'SPR' was too white? cos that's kind of how it went down, segregation-wise.
No, I said something about SPR, and Morbius followed it up with a defense of Amistad starring Wooderson and Hounsou. Thus 'I don't remember Wooderson or Hounsou being in SPR,' etc.

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:17 (eighteen years ago) link

The morality-on-the-battlefield questions are precisely what could make Munich suck. SPR raises them, but quietly throws them away to affirm the greatness of the Greatest Generation and Tom Hanks - how awful is it going to be if the ambivalence portrayed in the trailer gets trumped by dirty/evil Palestinians and/or 'we gots to do what we gots to do'?

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:19 (eighteen years ago) link

do yall really think spielberg considers palestinians to be morally equivalent to german nazis?

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:22 (eighteen years ago) link

do yall really think that's exactly what he meant, just then?

― Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:23 (eighteen years ago) link

I wouldn't be shocked if a mustache twirling Ralph Fiennes type-Palestinian popped up just to remind us all that Palestinians "are getting what's coming to them" either as his sop to hardcore Zionists might be inclined to make a fuss otherwise or just as a painfully obvious attempt on his part to add more "moral complexity" to the whole kit and kiboodle.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

well i think the connotations of cartoonishly evil nazis in a ww2 movie vs cartoonishly evil palestinians in a modern film are pretty far from each other and theres nothing to suggest that one necessarily leads to the next (especially with kushner writing)

xpost give me a fuckin break

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Spielberg also doesn't have to openly vilify all Palestinians, only those behind Black September (according to Israel).

The setup is very SPR-like - 'we must do our duty, even when it is stupid and even morally compromised, because it is our DUTY.'

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:31 (eighteen years ago) link

this reminds me of momus snobbishly condemning the violence and misogyny in kill bill pt 1 six months before it was released

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:33 (eighteen years ago) link

Whatever. Spielberg has a history of this sort of bullshit. It's not unfair to imagine that it might mar this film.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Also I could be wrong, but didn't Momus say he was criticizing the WIDELY available script to Kill Bill which he had in fact read? Explain to me why that is invalid?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

% of ppl on this thread who know Tony Kushner is: _____ ?

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Another Momus-now difference: I'm going to see the movie before I pass judgement. The trailer looks good - maybe Spielberg got it right.

But I'm not going to pretend that his track record doesn't give me room for concern.

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

100??

(xp)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

% of ppl on this thread who know that screenwriters don't have final edit is: ____ ?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

This film will not be as good as Black Hawk Down. I can say that.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

well that was directed more towards ally who fucked with momus for like 500 posts over it, i dont give a shit what he thinks of kill bill either way. i dont think ive seen any of spielbergs serious dramas, but jurassic park is one of my favorite films of all time and i also like indiana jones, hook, and jaws. the trailer for this makes it look pretty good, ill try to see it.

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes, obviously screenwriters don't have final edit, but why the hell would Spielberg hire Kushner if he was making a gung-ho pro-Israeli screed? It's not like TK is going to sell enough tickets to matter, if any at all.

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm not sure why you directed it at me when I haven't said anything either way about this particular film, really, other than, yes, Spielberg's track record with serious would make me concerned for the way he'd choose to handle a serious historical subject. The main thing going for it that it WOULDN'T end up being another serial melodrama is the cast and

especially with kushner writing

So get the fuck off it ethan, either you're arguing me about SPR (which I just said I don't remember and neither like nor dislike) or you're arguing with me about a film I've passed no judgement on that hasn't been released yet. If you're arguing with me that, like, I don't like Spielberg's treatment of serious subjects in previous films, well bully for fucking you dude. Direct your idiotic momus-baiting (???) at Alex, I guess.

― Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Momus deserved to get fucked with over that 'cause he was behaving like a retard. Kill Bill was/is brilliant and completely enjoyable. Spielberg's old shit is too. The reason Jurassic Park is one of your favorite films of all time is because you have been raised into a zeitgeist of irony and cynicism, thus you find that hokey crap refreshing, and also you are queer for dinosaurs.

I think this movie stands a chance! If I like it I will just make sure to keep track of the total running time and leave 15 minutes prior to the credits, so that I don't have the experience ruined by five and a half pounds of lukewarm velveeta shot down my esophagus.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link

also you are queer for dinosaurs.
http://www.gay-anime-toons.com/agt3dani2.gif

― Jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:12 (eighteen years ago) link

defending spielberg is fun because he is attacked by both the popist and rockist elements of the film divide. which probably also explains much of the poor thinking about him.

anyway--SPR is pretty good. not anywhere near the league of something like The Thin Red Line. too many people fetishize ambiguity for the sake of ambiguity. what i liked about it though was the anxiety about paying debts to those who have made sacrifices on your behalf. the injunction to "earn it" is such a huge mind fuck!! (yes i know i he veers away from that abyss to some bland conclusion, but still it's there)

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Industrial Light and Magic

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link

SPR is pretty good. not anywhere near the league of something like The Thin Red Line.

both these movies are shit.

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I like Black Hawk Down too, but it's a bit exhausting.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Which one had Ted Danson in it again?

― 'Twan (miccio), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

SPR!

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

tho TTRL had George Clooney

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Black Hawk Down had Ewan Macgregor!

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:31 (eighteen years ago) link

The Big Red One had Lee Marvin and Luke Skywalker. I believe that's a winner.

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Also the dude from Revenge Of The Nerds.

― 'Twan (miccio), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:33 (eighteen years ago) link

really? wow i need to see that.

― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:39 (eighteen years ago) link

The trailer looks pretty good to me. I wish he would have dropped John Williams, but it's Speilberg... what are you gonna do. I don't really understand why people are worried about the politics of this movie. It seems apparent from the article, the trailer, and Speilberg's politics, that he's not going to be making some kind of hardline pro-Zionist statement with this. It seems like he wants people to see this movie and think about the way the U.S. has reacted to 9/11. An examination of revenge as a national policy, etc.

That said, I still agree with those who said he'll probably fuck the whole movie up with the last 15 minutes. Every time I see one of his movies, I'm almost yelling at the screen: "Okay! OKAY! I get the fucking POINT already! Turn the strings down, dude."

― recovering optimist (Royal Bed Bouncer), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:40 (eighteen years ago) link

man... the end of war of the worlds was so lame.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:52 (eighteen years ago) link

(i mostly loved WotW though.... except for that ending, and the too-long tim robbins basement scene)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 18:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Minority Report was great... except for the ending.
AI was great... except for the ending.

Catch Me If You Can and the Terminal were just awful, though.

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 19:43 (eighteen years ago) link

how come nobody ever mentions the color purple? was that a jingoistic fantasy too?

― _, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 20:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Jaws wasn't jingoist fantasy either - you got a point?

― Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 21:01 (eighteen years ago) link

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