Taking Sides: Atheism vs. Christianity

This, by the way, is nonsense. C.S. Lewis, whom I like, was fond of this "proof," and I do love the way Lewis parses it ("we can either dismiss him as a madman or fall at his feet, but let's have no more of this calling him a great teacher" - paraphrased badly, but something along those lines), but it assumes strictly western, modern values: a man who says God sent him - well! either he's telling the truth, or he's crazy, or he's evil! ummm OR he's a Vaisnava who means what he says in a way you don't hear because you don't live the prayerful life he does! OR he's a teacher in a (very strong & great) Buddhist tradition where illogic is used to smash the unhelpful materialistic workings of Mind! Or, or, or, or a bunch of stuff, all equally interesting, pertinent and possible. Bottom line: Jesus could say ALL THE THINGS HE SAID and still not be God, crazy, or evil. OR a prophet. Of course he could.

A
List of Biblical Contradictions.

I wish U love
I wish U heaven
I wish U heaven

Somewhat hypocritical, methinks.

U are in my prayers. Its fascinating how there is always someone praying for you, its becuz they care for u and want to see u in the heavenly kingdom.

If you really cared for people, should you perhaps not be less condescending and more understanding towards those who don’t believe exactly what you believe (that would be anyone outside the Christian faith)? And prayer is cheap, anyway.

Do u see the wind. No u cant but u can feel the wind

...actually made me think more of Ween interpreting Prince than Prince. Thank you and good night.

In the case of phlogiston, the reason we have no proof is that non-existence is undetectable. I'd say this is equivalent to God, but I know that isn't an easy statement for a lot of people.

Sorry, that one was bugging me.

(boom! boom!)

(serious answer: yeah, me too.)

Lots of people don't seem to get this, though. Cf: creationism.

No, only according to your very narrow understanding of things. Jesus never outright said "I am God"; what he said was, "no man comes to the father except by me," "there are many rooms in my father's house, if it were not so I would have told you," etc. A perfectly sane non-prophet might in total sincerity say "no man comes to the father except by me" and mean any number of things! nor did Jesus say "I am the only son of God" - the authors of the gospels did that one. Every claim Christ made for divinity could be made by a perfectly sound worshipper of God who understood worship in the ecstatic tradition. You understand worship in a tradition that's roughly eighty years old, and Christ's version of worship would probaly give you the creeps real bad, since it doesn't involve "feelings" and whatnot but actual ecstatic dissolution of the self.

Religion glorifies the dogma of despotic, mythical gods. Atheism ennobles the interests of a free and progressive mankind. Religion is superstition. Atheism is sanity. Religion is medieval. Atheism is modern.
~E. Haldeman-Julius

The idea of God implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty, and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind, both in theory and practice.
~Emma Goldman

What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak.
~George Santayana

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
~Steven Weinberg

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
~Thomas Jefferson

If we assume that there is no God, it follows that morality is even more important than if there is a Deity. If God exists, his unlimited power can certainly redress imbalances in the scale of human justice. But if there is no God, then it is up to man to be as moral as he can.
~Steve Allen

Is God something that exists 'out there', beyond, and independent of us? Or is God merely the product of an inherited human perception, the manifestation of an evolutionary adaptation, a coping mechanism that emerged in our species in order to enable us to survive our unique and otherwise debilitating awareness of death?
~Matthew Alper

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
~Stephen Roberts

We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
~Gene Roddenberry

Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than are lies.
~Nietzsche

The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.
~George Bernard Shaw

If God created man in his own image, we have certainly returned the favour.
~Voltaire

When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, 'Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?
~Quentin Crisp

So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed… it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
~Stephen Hawking

This is the silliest proof of Jesus' divinity I've heard. What about other historical religious leaders, like Muhammad? If he was a lunatic, why didn't see it. If he was a liar, how come he was picked amongst other prophets, and how come Islam is the second biggest religion in the world, even though Muslims didn't do missionary work or forced people to convert at the same rate that Christians have done. To claim that you can't start a succesful religious sect without being The Real McCoy is stupid, just look at L. Ron Hubbard, or the guy who founded the Church of Mormon, or...

Besides, it isn't even certain that there was a historical Jesus.

Faith is not enough. I don't have it and I won't pretend to have it in the hope of getting it on someone's word. (I know you think Jesus's word is different, and fair enough, but I believe that the historical Jesus existed without believing in what Jesus believed or what subsequent Christians believe.)

The existence of God has no basis in sense or science, so why should I go for it, except perhaps to save my soul (another 'thing' that I don't believe in).

Asking people to read the Bible before making a judgement on Jesus or Christianity or God is like asking people to read Mein Kampf before judging Hitler. I judge Hitler by what he did. And I'll judge God by the same method. According to that method, I have no proof that He exists, so I don't see any reason at all to read His book.

About religion, I feel very confused these days.

My mother is a committed Christian, and an intellectual - a priest. When I talk to her, I feel like the most raging atheist who has ever lived, because I object to the Christian Church so strongly. My partner is a committed Atheist, a strong Atheist to the point where his insistence on the nonexistence of God is as based on faith and belief and dogma as my mother's belief.

I fall somewhere between the two.

On a large scale, I have many problems with The Church, as many other people have already pointed out, so I won't reiterate. On a small scale, however, I do see how individual churches have been very positive forces in various people's lives, so I cannot throw out the concept entirely.

However, my mother wants her computer right now and I cannot think or formulate ideas or write with her standing in the doorway so this is going to have to remain unfinished.

I appreciate that churches, religion and the belive in God can have positive effects on people's lives. That doesn't make me wonder whether I should believe in God myself. Do you, river fleet?

Insistence on the nonexistence of a god cannot be based "on faith and belief and dogma". If you insist that the Smurfs or elfs don't exist, is that a dogma? It's the same thing with gods. As someone pointed out, the burden of proof is always on the one who wants prove that something exists, because you can never fully prove something doesn't exist. It is impossible to prove that elfs or Smurfs don't exist, just like it is impossible to prove that God doesn't exist. Therefore, an atheist would be dogmatic only in the case the where god would appear right before his eyes, and he'd still refuse to believe in it. Of course, even that could be merely a delusion caused by LSD or a psychosis...

TS: atheism vs. theism, I'll take theism. but if it's atheism vs. Christianity, give me atheism. Christianity is the worst religion ever.

no offense taken, btw!

I can go along with that. It's not theism, though, is it, because you're not talking about a belief in god or gods or anything of that sort, are you?

Some things I appreciate about the church-
1) the community aspect. It brings people together, they share a common bond, it teaches them responsibility for each other. If this is inclusionary, this is great. Too often it is twisted into being exclusionary.
2) the moral aspect. It (hopefully should) teach a basic ethical code - do unto others, etc. If people follow the spirit of this code, then it's as good as the Categorial Imperative for me. However, too often people get caught up in the letter of the law and use this to justify vastly unethical behaviour.
3) The concept of forgiveness. (goes along with the moral aspect, perhaps.) Human beings make mistakes. It's a good idea to admit that you've made a mistake, forgive that mistake and move on, rather than bear a grudge and carry on into tribal style vengeance.

Do you need a concept of God to have these principles? Probably not. To me, the concept of God is a shortcut to admitting that there is something greater than yourself, greater than the individual and its animal impulses. You can call that Something Greater "god" or you can call it "free will" or you can call it "rational thought and consciousness leading to enlightened self interest".

Some people have literal, rational minds and call it Free Will and are atheists. Some people have intuitive, symbolic minds and call it God and are Christians (or the religion of your choice.)

I don't think it matters; it is the concept not the name.

My mother says again and again "God (religion, etc.) is an experience, you either have it or you don't" or words to that effect (I'm probably misquoting her.) I don't have that experience.

I always say "Music is an experience, either you get it or you don't" because music offers many of those things to me - community, fulfillment, the sense of Something Higher. My mother is not musical and will never understand or experience music the way that I do. I don't think that makes her a lesser person, just different. The religious/atheist principle *should* be like that. Except many relious (and strong atheists) want to make out that they are a better person for their experience. Which I don't think is right.

Anyway, as an aside. It's hysterically funny to me how many strong atheists spend so much time talking about whether or not music has "soul".