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THOSE FUCKING ENGLAND FLAGS!

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i wonder how Basque and Catalonians feel about commentators during Spain games

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:54 (twenty years ago) link

Yes, for naturally Irish TV shows every English match, and this is how I watch them. I do not have ITV or BBC or Sky Sports, nor do I know what they are. Furthermore the only channels I have that show England games are not in fact, all British. Indeed, no Irish people make the exact same complaints about the British commentators, because of all of the above. I have not in fact, heard them before, after, and during any major sporting event in which England or English athletes are involved.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:54 (twenty years ago) link

Indeed stevem, but as I said before, England and just like a less successful version of Germany: they play stodgy football, with a minimum of creativity and a maximum of hard work and endeavour and they are forever being outplayed and still grinding out results!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:56 (twenty years ago) link

It's not self-delusion. We hope to win every match. We think there's a realistic prospect that we might (with good reason - we're a good enough side that when we do lose, it's often close). We're disappointed when we don't. I really don't think Scots understand this at all. Also, they ignore the fact that LOADS of English get incredibly pessimistic about every match. Not TV pundits, I grant you, but many smug 'the Continentals are so much more sophisticated than us' print journalists, as well as ordinary Joes.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:56 (twenty years ago) link

I get the impression (though it's just an impression) that if you switch Scottish with Irish in that assertion, and add "when they think they can get away with it", it's closer to the truth.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 12:57 (twenty years ago) link

The English league has massive support and huge money, it's only natural people have some expectations. England have won a World Cup in the past as N says and there's no delusion in headlines like "We Can Win It" etc.

Denmark won Euro 1992 and who on earth thought they'd do that, England have a chance in every tournament they enter and are certainly not on the tier of confidence that says "we'll go and win a few games and be happy", nor should they be.

They are under-achievers mostly. Like Spain. Who you could also accuse of being ridiculous if they got their hopes up before big tournaments, even moreso than England. But similarly I would expect and be amazed if the Spanish media didn't get excited and consider their side to have a very good chance of winning things.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:00 (twenty years ago) link

Only a very few England followers think we'll win this: most reckon we'll make it to the quarters or the semis, which is probably realistic. People who want to cry "English arrogance" and gnash their teeth will naturally pick up on what the very few have to say because it suits them. None of the people involved in this are doing anything wrong.

When Celtic have been having their good runs in European competitions over the past few years, has 1967 been mentioned much?

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:03 (twenty years ago) link

Not really no Tim. When you do well, you have no reason to dredge up the past. And, believe me, that is not meant as a snide comment about England so much as a truthful one about Celtic!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:06 (twenty years ago) link

well quite, we have made all but 2 of the last 20 years of major championships (shit, is that right? anyway, it's possibly 3), and are still 13th in the world rankings (how the flip are spain 3rd btw?), so we should have a degree of expectation going into these things...

(world rankings: http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,AllJun2004,00.html?select11=All&cmbMonth=Jun&cmbYear=2004 entirely nonsensical as far as i can tell)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:07 (twenty years ago) link

A bit, not nearly as much as 1966 gets mentioned, but then the whole of Scotland does not support Celtic.

― Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:07 (twenty years ago) link

we are 14th I think!

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:07 (twenty years ago) link

and, to my amazement, i recently discovered that not everyone in Scotland is Scottish

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:08 (twenty years ago) link

the World Rankings are looking sillier than ever really. Mexico, the USA and Iran only play decent teams every other year

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:08 (twenty years ago) link

As Tim said, we're all terrified of who we'll meet in the quarters and then semis and don't really expect to get past that. But if we go out (no, not when) then we'll still be heartbroken, and every match we win (assuming we win any) we'll be thinking that we have a realistic chance of winning the next one. And yes, that would include the final if we got that far. You don't suddenly say, faced with a semi-final, "Oh, well the semis was as far as we decided we could reach - obviously we can't go any further now". It's a one-step-at a-time attitude.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:11 (twenty years ago) link

Was 1967 mentioned much before the recent European runs? I know not all of Scotland supports Celtic but when (say) Man Utd are playing they'll generally mention past glories a bit...

I'm sure I read something saying Celtic and Rangers fans competed for bragging rights over their 9s and 10s in-a-row and that Celtic fans always had the trump card with that Euopean Cup victory. But separating truth from London media myth with regards to the Old Firm is very tough, it seems. Going to live in Scotland to find out the truth is not really on my agenda.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:11 (twenty years ago) link

When Celtic have been having their good runs in European competitions over the past few years, has 1967 been mentioned much?

Well I can't speak for Celtic fans generally, but certainly the Scottish press went over it a few times...

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:13 (twenty years ago) link

World Rankings are always farcical. Anyway, I don't blame English fans for being hopeful that their team does well but it does tend to balloon out of all proportion. Plus there's an ongoing self-delusion about the actual quality of English footballers and about how England teams play and about how Spain are underachievers and England somehow aren't and Germany are "boring" and England aren't etc etc.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:14 (twenty years ago) link

Ronan is very even handed for an Irishman writing about English football. No sneering or digs. I appreciate that.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:15 (twenty years ago) link

We can't all have your hotline to objective truth, dada.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:16 (twenty years ago) link

The Scottish press? Like they're interested in Celtic?!?!?? Honestly I can say that the old misty-eyed/ Lisbon Lions/ '67 thing is most prevelant among Celtic fans when we're doing shite - which is more or less every year in Europe since 1973-74. Haven't heard anyhting like as much talk about it since MON's arrival.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:16 (twenty years ago) link

Ha ha snd I suppose you're more subjective than me Tim?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:17 (twenty years ago) link

Well England under Venables were not boring. Germany have a "boring" rep because there have been times, very often, when they had very few flair players and a team of hard workers and good tacklers in their stead, the last two tournaments probably. Maybe even the last three. You can attempt to argue that England have been like that for a long time too, however I don't think it washes, based on the players in the squad.

Finally I doubt anyone would dispute that England are underachievers, the only reason Spain are considered greater underachivers? COS THEY'VE DONE EVEN WORSE THAN ENGLAND.

x-post Mikey it's borne out of hearing people moaning over and over again here about England, despite the fact we all follow English club teams. Also first hand experience of living in London during the last World Cup and having pretty much every English person I talked to sounding genuinely upset when we lost to Spain.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:19 (twenty years ago) link

Dada that's what I just said. I dream of achieving your objectivity.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:19 (twenty years ago) link

Going to live in Scotland to find out the truth is not really on my agenda.

:-(

― Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:20 (twenty years ago) link

Plus it's easy for your lot Ronan, you kicked the English out years ago.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

By 'Scottish press', I was more talking about the Herald, Sunday Herald and Evening Times. By 'Scottish press', Dadaismus was more talking about the Daily Record, I think.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

well have Spain ever won a LE TOURNOI??

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

Madchen you must know as well as anyone that Scotland wouldn't take to me, much as I like it. And one does get tired of being referred to as "Big Man" about every three minutes.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago) link

Nick - the Evening Times? Have you read it? Ha ha.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago) link

England are mentioned in the same breath as teams like Holland and Spain - no one but the most deluded believes we are up there with Brazil and France.

I am not terrified about the prospect of meeting Spain, Portugal OR Greece in the quarters. They are all beatable.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago) link

Plus it's easy for your lot Ronan, you kicked the English out years ago.

Oh, great - now Dadaismus is coming round to evict me.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago) link

N, it's easy, just pay another Jock to beat him up on the way. It's always worked in the past.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:23 (twenty years ago) link

Well I live in England, Nick, so I can't can I? Well I would place England more in the company of Sweden, Denmark or Germany personally - England are capable of beating everyone in the this tournament but I also think they're capable of losing to most of them too.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:25 (twenty years ago) link

Nick - the Evening Times? Have you read it? Ha ha.

Err- yes. I work there.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:25 (twenty years ago) link

England are capable of beating everyone in the this tournament but I also think they're capable of losing to most of them too.

Bingo! As are all the other teams.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:26 (twenty years ago) link

At the end of the day, it's a game of two halves.

― Madchen (Madchen), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:26 (twenty years ago) link

Not on the football page tho Nick? Unless you actually have a season ticket for Ibrox Park?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:27 (twenty years ago) link

i think yr confusing meeja hype with the expectations of the person on the clapham omnibus dadais.

there was certainly mention of 1967 LAST NIGHT when larrson scored...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:27 (twenty years ago) link

On what omnibus was 1967 mentioned steve?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:28 (twenty years ago) link

"Err, I work there"

Yes, but I work for an insurance company and always forget to renew my car tax.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:29 (twenty years ago) link

repatriate Dadaismus!

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:29 (twenty years ago) link

Thing is Steve, if you live outwith Clapham, the meeja is all you've really got to go on, ain't it?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:29 (twenty years ago) link

Dadaismus - I work in the library for all three papers and whatever reputation the Times might have had in the past, I can assure you that they are now almost obsessive about devoting equal prominence and space to both Celtic and Rangers, and that during the recent UEFA Cup run I had to drag up all sorts of 1967 stuff.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:30 (twenty years ago) link

'England are mentioned in the same breath as teams like Holland and Spain'

Not so much with Holland as they actually underachieved, especially in the 70s.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:33 (twenty years ago) link

well unless you actually, y'know, talk to some english people, dada, which is what you're doing here, and i think we're trying to give you a more balanced opinion...

julio, that sentence makes no sense...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:34 (twenty years ago) link

Well I haven't lived in Scotland for four years so maybe with yr benevolent presence Nick, the Times has mended its ways! I notice that, if anything, the Record and Mail have got worse.

Steve, I live in London, I talk to English people every day! That last sentence does not necessarily follow of course...

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:35 (twenty years ago) link

I can assure you that they are now almost obsessive about devoting equal prominence and space to both Celtic and Rangers

Aye, Charlie N1cholas and Derek J0hnstone both get a page each to demonstrate why former footballers have no place in journalism.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:39 (twenty years ago) link

I think Julio is correct about Holland, even if the sentence is suspect. Maybe I've interpreted it my own way and that's why I agree with myself.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:39 (twenty years ago) link

Gosh this is so confusing. Scottish people living in England, English people living in Scotland, English people not minding being called British, Scottish minding being called anything but Scottish. Maaaaaad wooooorld (umcha..umcha...)

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:41 (twenty years ago) link

Sorry: was just pointing out that Holland prob should have won more than their one european championship, whereas I don't think eng have underachieved in major tournaments.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 13:42 (twenty years ago) link

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