Batman carries on beginning in ... The Dark Knight

Ryan: it's not that the story isn't rich in detail (I'd call it overcomplexified before I'd call it simplistic), it's that it's narratively shapeless. The bulk of the movie consists of the Joker doing some shit, and everybody else going, "Aaagh! The Joker's doing some shit!", and then the Joker doing some other shit, and everybody going "Aaagh!" again, and so on. And so on. It's like watching a fish flop around on deck. While the romantic triangle between Harvey, Bruce and Rachel is coherently structured and thus kinda meaningful, narratively, a lot of the rest is frantic, punch-happy gibberish.

This is actually a big flaw for me when it comes to Batman Returns compared to the first Batman -- the second film felt MUCH smaller.

that's true. burton kind of shrinks gotham down to snowglobe size. but everything inside the snowglobe is of a piece.

(and yeah the first burton one is pretty bad. ledger's joker >>>> nicholson's joker, among other things. but it did have "batdance"...)

xpost: contenderizer otm

contenderizer IS otm, which is probably why im still having some trouble w/ your guys' problem w/ the movie

yeah Batdance is awesome, I will grant you that.

and Ledger never DID fall into the arms of Orion.

narratively, a lot of the rest is frantic, punch-happy gibberish.

This may derive in part from Nolan's attempt to structure the movie around the idea of "escalation"--which can easily seem like a one-thing-after-another kind of plot, but the attempt was, I think, to show how the actions of everyone involved precipitated an equal and opposite reaction. part of the effective horror of the film for me is the feeling of being caught in a feedback loop of chaos and hysteria.

^^^^this is a superb point; I didn't feel like the pacing was mechanical or partitioned, but that the whole thing was a glorious and accelerating mess.

The Joker is a catalyst, it is his very purpose in the narrative to "inject a little chaos", to accelerate reactions and events. To say the plot is incoherent is moot; of course it's incoherent, the person driving it is insane, suicidal, maniacal, homicidal. And also very, very driven.

Agree massively about Batman Returns; Gotham by that film felt empty and fraudulent, like an incomplete theatre set.

Of course The Dark Knight is ridiculous; of course the bus thing at the start is implausible; of course the idea of rigging the ferries with explosives is stupid; of course Dent is a symbolic figure rather than a believable dramatic character; this is all because The Dark Knight IS a comic book movie, but there's no reason why a comic book movie can't also be a great movie, same way a Western or a horror or an animated movie can also be a great movie. The make-up in Dawn of the Dead is ridiculous, and much of the acting is appalling - I still love it and it's reputation is still massive. The Godfather is incredibly long and drags and has much nasty brutality in it (the binlid thing!). NOTHING AT ALL HAPPENS in Citizen Kane. Taxi Driver is just dull, the characters unbelievable and unsympathetic, their actions implausible. The Bourne Identity is good apart from that ridiculous, suspension-of-disbelief-shattering subplot with Mr Eke from Lost. Heat is just a series of high-concept bank robberies; De Niro robs someone, Pacino wonders where he is and argues with his wife; rinse and repeat for THREE HOURS. No Country For Old Men doesn't make any sense and Bardem's character is barely even one dimensional. Every single Wes Anderson film is exactly the same, down to the cast. 2001: A Space Odyssey is completely unintelligible. No character motivation is explored in Badlands. That giant slob monster at the end of Akira MAKES NO SENSE. The Truman Show is completely implausible. Raiders of the Lost Ark is basically just a racist theme park ride. La Jetee is essentially a powerpoint presentation. That toad in Pan's Labyrinth doesn't look real. Many of these are my favourite films.

I enjoyed The Dark Knight massively; it's given me as much food for thought as any movie in recent years; it's also given me a wonderful in-theatre cinematic experience on two occasions, the feeling of participating in a cultural event. Plus, it was a terrific spectacle that thrilled and excited me. If you want plotholes resolving, read the novelisation.

The Dark Knight IS a comic book movie, but there's no reason why a comic book movie can't also be a great movie

OTM!

^ Truth bomb. XP.

I watched Batman Begins again. Had forgotten that the razing of the forest motif was used there too, by Ra's Al Ghul. I love that film so much. "AND YOU NEVER WILL". BAM!

I did think about my problems with the narrative cohesion of The Dark Knight being solved by an appeal to the Joker's love of chaos, but it doesn't quite feel like a "feedback loop of chaos and hysteria" to me. The crowds turning on Coleman Reese was good and edgy enough, but I felt that loop more acutely in Batman Begins with the gassed, hallucininating panic.

The make-up in Dawn of the Dead is ridiculous, and much of the acting is appalling - I still love it and it's reputation is still massive. The Godfather is incredibly long and drags and has much nasty brutality in it (the binlid thing!). NOTHING AT ALL HAPPENS in Citizen Kane. Taxi Driver is just dull, the characters unbelievable and unsympathetic, their actions implausible. The Bourne Identity is good apart from that ridiculous, suspension-of-disbelief-shattering subplot with Mr Eke from Lost. Heat is just a series of high-concept bank robberies; De Niro robs someone, Pacino wonders where he is and argues with his wife; rinse and repeat for THREE HOURS. No Country For Old Men doesn't make any sense and Bardem's character is barely even one dimensional. Every single Wes Anderson film is exactly the same, down to the cast. 2001: A Space Odyssey is completely unintelligible. No character motivation is explored in Badlands. That giant slob monster at the end of Akira MAKES NO SENSE. The Truman Show is completely implausible. Raiders of the Lost Ark is basically just a racist theme park ride. La Jetee is essentially a powerpoint presentation. That toad in Pan's Labyrinth doesn't look real.

What you saying? That these films' strength outweigh these weaknesses? Or that none of these things are relevant? If the latter, what exactly is the point of film criticism? I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about the rules of genre filmmaking and the slack that it should or shouldn't be cut over non-genre work, but seeing as most of these films aren't genre films, you seem to just being negating analysis of any kind. Unless you just meant the former.

I assume what he was saying was that a film doesn't stop being great because it has flaws, and bringing up those flaws in the face of all a film's praise (as if to say the film is no longer great) is a bit disingenuous.

What has other people's praise got to do with one's own problems with a film?

Because the problems being mentioned don't address people's praise of the film. It doesn't disagree with what people like. No one is saying it's a great film because it's INCREDIBLY COHERENT. So to say it's a mediocre flick because it's not coherent is just ignoring the rest of the conversation.

No, it's just not letting them dictate one's own terms for evaulating the film. If, say, I put my disappointment with the film down to its narrative incohesion, it's absurd for me to stay out of a discussion of it on the grounds that other people are saying they didn't care about that incohesion.

Following on from that, it's interesting to explore why certain things matter to one person and not another. But it perhaps strains the limits of criticism's possibilities.

Well, I'm not saying you're not entitled to dislike the film for whatever reason you want. I just think that if meant as an objective (!?) critical response, saying a film lacks cohesion while ignoring its other aspects is probably poor criticism.

I'm saying that both "these films' strengths outweigh these weaknesses" and "a film doesnt stop being great because it has flaws", plus I'm also not actually (except I guess in the case of the Bourne film) saying anything about whether I think any of the films are good (in my opinion) or not; I think they're all recognised as being at least 'good' by the vast majority of commentors, and some of them I love; some of them I also have very little time for. Most of them I quite like. But any of the criticisms leveled at The Dark Knight can also be leveled against other films the critics (of TDK) would hold up as being better. They're not better (or worse); the commentor just likes them more. For who knows what reason?

Some people will go into TDK with clear expectations and have them matched or exceeded even, and as a result love it. Some people will not have their expectations matched, and as a result will be disappointed. Some people will go in with no expectations at all and whether they like it or not will depend on their mood when they got up that morning. Or else their entire analogue of film experience over the course of their lifetime, etc etc.

It's not what other people's praise has to do with one's own problems with a film; it's what other people's problems have to do with one's own praise of a film. Most of the praisers say of the problems "yeah, but that didn't bother me; anyway, wasn't this scene great!"; many of the problem-voicers seem to be trying to pass on their unenjoyment of the film to everyone else while the praisers chatter amongst themselves. This is... probably... the nature of all criticism. Most of the time it doesn't convince. Both sides are just trying to find ways to express why they liked or didn't like something, and neither side is right.

Is TDK the greatest film ever made? No. But nothing is. Is it my favourite film? Right now it might be, until I watch another I really enjoy and start thinking about that instead.

Also, Alba says "most of these films aren't genre films" - what is a genre film? Are some films without genre? Is some music without genre? What is genre for? I think every film is a genre film. "Drama" is a genre with conventions and rules and slack cut it in the same way as comic book movies or horror movies.

agreed with all of the comments above about Batman Returns. I loved the movie when I was a kid (though the ending left me empty), and was stunned two years ago when I bought it and watched it and....just DIDN'T like it.

I did like the original Batman, but even that had faded from my memory ...due to how dated it looks now

i took that list of "criticisms" to mean that criticism, in order to be effective and meaningful, has to sorta key-in to what a work of art is trying to do and trying to say. it's easy to take oneself out of an interpretative relationship with a work of art and simply proclaim it "brainless"....and it's perfectly valid to do so too!

for example, saying 2001 is "boring" or whatever may make sense from a consumer review point of view (hey if you dont like movies like that, it's your prerogative) but it doesn't really make much sense as criticism because it's doesn't try to really make sense of what 2001 is trying to do.

I find it very distracting that Gordon's predecessor is the black bloke off The Fast Show.

hay guyz im still confused how they nevr explained how Twoface lost his blackness between Batman and Batman Forever

Robert Downey Jr was busy?

don't you diiiiiiiiiiiie on me!

love ppl upthread going "give me several examples of bad dialogue", like yes i'll just dig out the shooting script i happen to have a copy right here, in my ass

gotham crime lords = most stereotypical black criminal and eastern european criminal and italian criminal ever! does gotham have a mob with an affirmative action program? or are there three entirely separate crime syndicates who actually just are really cool with each other and cooperate? christopher nolan's next movie should be an adaptation of 'river city ransom'

in terms of filmic rhetoric some of this felt so so so pat - here is some drama and a big 360 camera swivel! here is the joker, he is a bit crazy, this bit is on handheld camera! (this latter interesting because of the fake camcorder footage bits with him also - can't work out if they're meant to comment on each other or if nolan didn't think about it enough for that)

playboy bruce not a patch on playboy tony in iron man

it's a BATCAR no look it's a BATCYCLE = not as good as equiv. sequence in batman forever

-

it felt like quite a short two hours and forty minutes, though

love ppl upthread going "give me several examples of bad dialogue", like yes i'll just dig out the shooting script i happen to have a copy right here, in my ass

yea, cuz we were obviously expecting verbatim 5 minute sequences of dialogue for examples......:eyeroll:

or are there three entirely separate crime syndicates who actually just are really cool with each other and cooperate?

Oh man, I hate to be mister uber-nerd here, but this is actually covered in the direct-to-dvd animated prequel, "Batman: Gotham Knight." Basically yeah, Batman makes the Russian and Italian mobs agree to divvy up their activities in order to stop ongoing inter-mob violence.

i took that list of "criticisms" to mean that criticism, in order to be effective and meaningful, has to sorta key-in to what a work of art is trying to do and trying to say.

i think that's not really true. criticism can take a lot of forms, and critics aren't captive to the intent of the artist. but in any case in terms of TDK i don't think observations about narrative, stylistic and moral incoherence are really "missing" anything that the nolans are trying to say. it's just a matter of noting (or asserting, if you like) flaws in the conception and execution of the whole enterprise. you either don't agree those flaws are there, or you think they're offset by other virtues within the movie, which is fine. but it's not that people who think it's crash-bang nonsense are refusing to engage with the vision of the auteur. they just have a different opinion than you. (an opinion like, chris nolan is the most overrated hollywood guy since shyamalan.)

of course, you can say whatever you want about the movie! and you're welcome to do so...im not having a problem with any opinions. im just a little frustrated with how flippantly they are expressed. i could take one look at the sistine chapel and proclaim it "stupid" after one glance and then walk out....and no one can fault me for that, it's my opinion! but all anyone can do when confronted with that is shrug it off i guess....

fwiw, what im looking for is basically how you criticized the portrayal of Gotham, which strikes me as good criticism, even if im not sure i agree.

i understand. part of it i guess is that i think the movie doesn't really warrant much weighty analysis. i just don't think there's a whole lot there.

(i have been in the reverse position on other movies -- like there will be blood, which i think is sort of genius even though it has its share of incoherence and which i've defended partly on the same visceral grounds that some people are lauding the dark knight. i understand the view of morbz and others that there isn't really much going on in TWBB -- i just disagree.)

(or marie antoinette, for that matter)

The idea that a negative assessment of a film, in order to be valid, must specifically engage with and forcibly negate whatever positive assessments exist is hilarious. Thank you for that.

Anyway, "escalation of chaos" as a theme/strategy doesn't excuse narrative incoherence. If it did, Rob Zombie's Halloween remake would be a good film. And it isn't.

wow thank you for not being able to read

it's easy to take oneself out of an interpretative relationship with a work of art and simply proclaim it "brainless"....and it's perfectly valid to do so too!

Isn't it a mark of good thinking to engage with things on their own terms, unless those terms're unacceptable? I fucking loved this movie, for what it was and how it showed itself.

today the part of deeznuts will be played by tispy mothra

can safely say that probably no other comic book movie has inspired this much intense debate...which is very cool.

Is this the longest single movie thread on ILX?

I just got invited to see it at Imax. I will now be going a fourth time. I have never seen a movie four times in a theatre before. my Regal club card is happy though.

it's easy to take oneself out of an interpretative relationship with a work of art and simply proclaim it "brainless"

what if your interpretative relationship with a movie leads you to the suspicion that it doesn't have much going on in its stylish little head? like, i see all the gestures at relevancy in dark knight -- terror, torture, surveillance, the trade-offs between security and liberty, the conflict between means and ends -- but they mostly end up seeming like ... gestures at relevancy. they acknowledge some set of moral tensions, but they don't illuminate them any more than your average pundit round-table on cnn.

but so ok, i don't expect social relevancy of comic-book movies or even think they're a particular plus. on the visceral entertain-me side, like i said, i think a lot of the action sequences are not particularly well handled -- they go on too long, at a sustained pitch of frenzy that becomes monotonous, and the editing is kind of murky. (major exception is the ferry-boat scene, which i think is good and has more actual tension than most of the movie.) so i don't think that's rejecting an interpretative relationship. it's just feeling sort of unfulfilled by it.

Which, as I said earlier, comes down to the fact that you don't really like this movie and a lot of other people do seem to like it, quite a lot. And neither understands the other enough to fully empathise / change minds. And would should either?

no, of course. criticism pro or con isn't really about changing minds anyway, right? just a chance to talk about something.

(i've had my mind changed by criticism before, probably -- in that it maybe gave me a new way of looking at or thinking about something. but more often i can enjoy good criticism of something, like ned's thoughts about this movie, even if i don't share the critic's opinion of the work itself.)

based on the review excerpts you posted before you even saw the film i think your mind was halfway made up before you went into this thing, morbs.

i don't get all that anyway, esp since people can read into shit like this exactly what they want to read. don't even get me started on the dude i overheard talking about how hellboy 2 was probably "john mccain's favorite film".

like john mccain even saw the first hellboy

no, of course. criticism pro or con isn't really about changing minds anyway, right? just a chance to talk about something.

yeah. we'd probably have to get obnoxiously theoretical to really talk about this well, but i think, in short, good criticism simply brings your attention to something you didn't notice on your own. makes it possible to "see" something you couldn't see before. how this affects your subjective feelings about the movie is something different and maybe only related in an indirect way. (like if someone reads a movie as marxist it could either turn you off or turn you on.)