― B. Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 12:57 (twenty years ago) link
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:02 (twenty years ago) link
Religion glorifies the dogma of despotic, mythical gods. Atheism ennobles the interests of a free and progressive mankind. Religion is superstition. Atheism is sanity. Religion is medieval. Atheism is modern.~E. Haldeman-Julius
The idea of God implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty, and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind, both in theory and practice.~Emma Goldman
What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak.~George Santayana
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.~Steven Weinberg
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.~Thomas Jefferson
If we assume that there is no God, it follows that morality is even more important than if there is a Deity. If God exists, his unlimited power can certainly redress imbalances in the scale of human justice. But if there is no God, then it is up to man to be as moral as he can.~Steve Allen
Is God something that exists 'out there', beyond, and independent of us? Or is God merely the product of an inherited human perception, the manifestation of an evolutionary adaptation, a coping mechanism that emerged in our species in order to enable us to survive our unique and otherwise debilitating awareness of death?~Matthew Alper
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.~Stephen Roberts
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.~Gene Roddenberry
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than are lies.~Nietzsche
The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.~George Bernard Shaw
If God created man in his own image, we have certainly returned the favour.~Voltaire
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, 'Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?~Quentin Crisp
So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed… it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?~Stephen Hawking
― Charles Hatcher (musenheddo), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:07 (twenty years ago) link
This is the silliest proof of Jesus' divinity I've heard. What about other historical religious leaders, like Muhammad? If he was a lunatic, why didn't see it. If he was a liar, how come he was picked amongst other prophets, and how come Islam is the second biggest religion in the world, even though Muslims didn't do missionary work or forced people to convert at the same rate that Christians have done. To claim that you can't start a succesful religious sect without being The Real McCoy is stupid, just look at L. Ron Hubbard, or the guy who founded the Church of Mormon, or...
Besides, it isn't even certain that there was a historical Jesus.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:11 (twenty years ago) link
Faith is not enough. I don't have it and I won't pretend to have it in the hope of getting it on someone's word. (I know you think Jesus's word is different, and fair enough, but I believe that the historical Jesus existed without believing in what Jesus believed or what subsequent Christians believe.)
The existence of God has no basis in sense or science, so why should I go for it, except perhaps to save my soul (another 'thing' that I don't believe in).
Asking people to read the Bible before making a judgement on Jesus or Christianity or God is like asking people to read Mein Kampf before judging Hitler. I judge Hitler by what he did. And I'll judge God by the same method. According to that method, I have no proof that He exists, so I don't see any reason at all to read His book.
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:14 (twenty years ago) link
About religion, I feel very confused these days.
My mother is a committed Christian, and an intellectual - a priest. When I talk to her, I feel like the most raging atheist who has ever lived, because I object to the Christian Church so strongly. My partner is a committed Atheist, a strong Atheist to the point where his insistence on the nonexistence of God is as based on faith and belief and dogma as my mother's belief.
I fall somewhere between the two.
On a large scale, I have many problems with The Church, as many other people have already pointed out, so I won't reiterate. On a small scale, however, I do see how individual churches have been very positive forces in various people's lives, so I cannot throw out the concept entirely.
However, my mother wants her computer right now and I cannot think or formulate ideas or write with her standing in the doorway so this is going to have to remain unfinished.
― the river fleet, Friday, 23 January 2004 13:32 (twenty years ago) link
I appreciate that churches, religion and the belive in God can have positive effects on people's lives. That doesn't make me wonder whether I should believe in God myself. Do you, river fleet?
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:36 (twenty years ago) link
Insistence on the nonexistence of a god cannot be based "on faith and belief and dogma". If you insist that the Smurfs or elfs don't exist, is that a dogma? It's the same thing with gods. As someone pointed out, the burden of proof is always on the one who wants prove that something exists, because you can never fully prove something doesn't exist. It is impossible to prove that elfs or Smurfs don't exist, just like it is impossible to prove that God doesn't exist. Therefore, an atheist would be dogmatic only in the case the where god would appear right before his eyes, and he'd still refuse to believe in it. Of course, even that could be merely a delusion caused by LSD or a psychosis...
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 23 January 2004 13:54 (twenty years ago) link
TS: atheism vs. theism, I'll take theism. but if it's atheism vs. Christianity, give me atheism. Christianity is the worst religion ever.
― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:01 (twenty years ago) link
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:03 (twenty years ago) link
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:04 (twenty years ago) link
no offense taken, btw!
― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:06 (twenty years ago) link
I can go along with that. It's not theism, though, is it, because you're not talking about a belief in god or gods or anything of that sort, are you?
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:08 (twenty years ago) link
Some things I appreciate about the church-1) the community aspect. It brings people together, they share a common bond, it teaches them responsibility for each other. If this is inclusionary, this is great. Too often it is twisted into being exclusionary.2) the moral aspect. It (hopefully should) teach a basic ethical code - do unto others, etc. If people follow the spirit of this code, then it's as good as the Categorial Imperative for me. However, too often people get caught up in the letter of the law and use this to justify vastly unethical behaviour.3) The concept of forgiveness. (goes along with the moral aspect, perhaps.) Human beings make mistakes. It's a good idea to admit that you've made a mistake, forgive that mistake and move on, rather than bear a grudge and carry on into tribal style vengeance.
Do you need a concept of God to have these principles? Probably not. To me, the concept of God is a shortcut to admitting that there is something greater than yourself, greater than the individual and its animal impulses. You can call that Something Greater "god" or you can call it "free will" or you can call it "rational thought and consciousness leading to enlightened self interest".
Some people have literal, rational minds and call it Free Will and are atheists. Some people have intuitive, symbolic minds and call it God and are Christians (or the religion of your choice.)
I don't think it matters; it is the concept not the name.
My mother says again and again "God (religion, etc.) is an experience, you either have it or you don't" or words to that effect (I'm probably misquoting her.) I don't have that experience.
I always say "Music is an experience, either you get it or you don't" because music offers many of those things to me - community, fulfillment, the sense of Something Higher. My mother is not musical and will never understand or experience music the way that I do. I don't think that makes her a lesser person, just different. The religious/atheist principle *should* be like that. Except many relious (and strong atheists) want to make out that they are a better person for their experience. Which I don't think is right.
Anyway, as an aside. It's hysterically funny to me how many strong atheists spend so much time talking about whether or not music has "soul".
― the river fleet, Friday, 23 January 2004 14:08 (twenty years ago) link
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:11 (twenty years ago) link
― Ferrrrrrg (Ferg), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:14 (twenty years ago) link
It's one thing to say that something cannot be proved, and therefore is meaningless. It's another thing to go on and on about the nonexistence of god until it becomes a kind of bugbear and the utter blind insistence that god does not exist becomes a kind of religion in and of itself.
<>i>Do you agree, then, river fleet, that you have a primarily (or even exclusively) secular interest in religion?
I'm not sure what that means. I am a secular person, so of course the benefits that I see are secular. If you are a religious person, then you will experience religious benefits that I do not see or understand. I am sure that this means a lot to a religious person, and I cannot deny them their meaning.
― the river fleet, Friday, 23 January 2004 14:16 (twenty years ago) link
Christianity, or at least the philosophy of Christ –- tolerance, turn the other cheek, riches don’t bring contentment, etc. -- are cannily apt and enlightened (particularly when you take into account the age Christ existed in), but unfortunately these teachings are, to a great extent, ignored (think the death penalty and going to war for God), and prominence is placed more on “going to mass,” “not being gay,” etc.
― Charles Hatcher (musenheddo), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:18 (twenty years ago) link
This is a thoughtful approach, I think. And it is neither dogmatic nor irrationalist. Atheism doesn't mean being cold and scientific. It doesn't even mean being anti-Christian. It just means not believing.
On the side, though, I don't think when atheists talk about music having 'soul' they are invoking any sort of religious belief system. They just mean that it isn't formulaic, mechanical, drab or something.
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:27 (twenty years ago) link
Well, isn't that a belief system, even if it's a system of belief about what music should or shouldn't symbolise?
― the river fleet, Friday, 23 January 2004 14:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 14:32 (twenty years ago) link
― the river fleet, Friday, 23 January 2004 14:36 (twenty years ago) link
Why can't you call yourself an atheist and allow other people to call themselves something else? Why can't you're lack of belief in God (if that's what you have) be consistent with allowing other people belief in God? In other words, you can be very clear (if you want to be) about being an atheist without denying anybody else their clear (or fuzzy) theism.
You're absolutely right that atheism's lack of belief in God implies that there is no god at all, not for anyone. That doesn't mean that the atheist has to deny other people their faith or their meanings or their beliefs. It means that you disagree. And surely it's possible to disagree with someone and respect their beliefs at the same time?
― run it off (run it off), Friday, 23 January 2004 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― B. Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:10 (twenty years ago) link
― B. Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:21 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:23 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:24 (twenty years ago) link
― B. Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:24 (twenty years ago) link
Latebloomer, Sorry I should have tried to say it more clearly, but I created this thread to specifically focus on Christianity and Atheism (partly because I think when I posted this there was a similar lecture going on at my university, and Christianity is more culturally and socially relevant to most English speakers). I was being biased towards a certain concept of religion. But of course any discussion of religion can and probably will get expanded to many other concepts of religion. Either way it's interesting.
― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:25 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:25 (twenty years ago) link
see
you
are
aren't
― Righteous Avenger, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:26 (twenty years ago) link
― B. Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:27 (twenty years ago) link
― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:29 (twenty years ago) link
My major quarrel with christianity is its claim to be a 'revealed religion'. IOW, christianity claims its myths must be accepted as plain historic facts and its sacred writings must be accepted as a narrative of god's historic interactions with particular humans and carry the force of divine law. In this respect it is quite similar to Judaism and Islam.
My difficulty is that all such religions are so inflexibly dogmatic that when experience, feeling and thought come into conflict with dogma, it is experience, feeling and thought that are forced to yield. At best, that requires the faithful to become daily adepts at hypocrisy and at worst that can do serious damage to their sanity. Even the most dogmatic atheism does less violence to one's pysche.
If I correctly gathered the sense of those who objected to atheists, it was not to their beliefs per se, so much as their to attempts to proselytize. That particular shoe fits both sides in this match.
― Aimless, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:33 (twenty years ago) link
― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:36 (twenty years ago) link
― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:38 (twenty years ago) link
― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:39 (twenty years ago) link
"haha i wasnt paraphrasing CS lewis on that one thats a standard question u must ask urself about Jesus..... he has to be one of those 4 "
I would suggest you don't think any standard questions MUST be asked.
"The trouble with religion is that it’s based on the principle of “don’t ask questions; just have faith” – this is pure intellectual laziness."
Not nessicarly. I'm relgious and I know many other religious people that try to find all these difficult (don't ask) questions. That's the best way to reaffirm one's faith. It's a very taxing intellectual process.I do agree that many many people don't want to bother with any intellectual difficulties and that kind of sucks for them. They take the approach of "I have faith, that's all I need. I love God, but I'm not going to think about it"
I'm not saying that one should rely on intellectualism to find a faith. That's something man can't do for himself.
― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:40 (twenty years ago) link
x-post
― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:40 (twenty years ago) link
Well...if God exists then He gave me the ability to think logically and rationally. Using this ability, I have come to the conclusion that God in the Christian sense does not exist. (I'm not saying this is the ONLY rational conclusion one can come to, just the one I have come to). So, how can he damn me to hell for using and relying on the abilities He himself has bestowed upon me. Seems like a shitty thing to do.
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:45 (twenty years ago) link
― B .Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 21:54 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 21:59 (twenty years ago) link
― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:00 (twenty years ago) link
― sleepywanker (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:01 (twenty years ago) link
― B. Robinson, Friday, 23 January 2004 22:01 (twenty years ago) link