So I know our tendency here (and really throughout the Big Inter-Sect Sangha in the world) is to focus on common ground and gloss over differences, but I'm curious if anyone else is comfortable sharing the specificities of their practices/beliefs.
Just curious. I'd like our little handful of Dharma ILXors to talk more often!
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 02:13 (sixteen years ago) link
Hey guys, this isn't quite the same as heading to your local Center and sitting with a teacher, but this guy Jundo Cohen has committed to "sit zazen online for the next 9 years." He gives a short lecture (at the moment he's slowly working through Dogen's Fukanzazengi), then sits for about 20 minutes. It's become a regular part of my lunch hour, thought I'd pass it along for those here that don't have access to a local Center.
http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/
-- BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:19 PM (10 months ago) Bookmark Link
haha I am doing jukai w/this guy over the summer
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 02:21 (sixteen years ago) link
I'd just like to add, having only read about half the thread, that I do find it quite delightful to read. The sparring is gentle, thoughtful and polite and I wish more of ILX was like this (as well as myself).
― Trayce, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 03:26 (sixteen years ago) link
Dunno if any of you guys are into hip-hop but these guys are pretty cool. I gather that they're Tibetan? Not completely sure.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 06:29 (sixteen years ago) link
http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-998.png
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 5 June 2008 00:33 (sixteen years ago) link
Rode the bus with a talkative, wheelchair-bound Buddhist the other day. He was smart and affable enough, but a bit too taken with his own erudition and spiritual accomplishments. Got me to thinking: Buddhism (as I, ignorantly, understand it) is all about surrendering attachments, letting go of the illusory objects -- pysical, intellectual and emotional -- that seem to compose the world, cutting through the momentary in pursuit of the eternal. But why isn't there a spiritually congratualatory term for fanatical attachment? For being wholly devoted to the merely physical here and now?
― contenderizer, Monday, 25 August 2008 20:21 (fifteen years ago) link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism might come close?
― Bob Six, Monday, 25 August 2008 20:27 (fifteen years ago) link
Those don't work, because they describe spiritual faults. I'm looking a term that boils down to "being Neruda in his youth".
― contenderizer, Monday, 25 August 2008 20:36 (fifteen years ago) link
In the context of Indian dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism), you're talking about the Charvaka philosophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka#Astika_schools.2C_Buddhism.2C_and_Jainism_versus_C.C4.81rv.C4.81ka
A Cārvāka's thought is characterized by an insistence on joyful living, whereas Buddhism and Jainism are known to emphasize penance. Enjoyment of life in a tempered manner, much like the Epicureans of Greece, was the Cārvākas' primary modus operandi. The Cārvākas did not deny the difference between the dead and the living and recognized both as realities. A person lives, the same person dies: that is a perceived, and hence the only provable, fact. In this regard, the Cārvākas found themselves at odds with all the other religions of the time.
Rejection of the soul as separate from the body led the Cārvākas to confine their thinking to this world only.
― Vichitravirya_XI, Monday, 25 August 2008 20:49 (fifteen years ago) link
Cool. Have you read his newest book?
Update: Yes I have. It's grebt! More satisfying in many ways than Hardcore Zen, if/because written for a smaller audience.
Also highly recommended: Bring Me The Rhinoceros. Different in style, but equally excellent.
But why isn't there a spiritually congratualatory term for fanatical attachment? For being wholly devoted to the merely physical here and now?
There is: it's "zazen" ;-)
A Cārvāka's thought is characterized by an insistence on joyful living, whereas Buddhism and Jainism are known to emphasize penance.
Now hang on just a minute there!
― rogermexico., Monday, 25 August 2008 21:09 (fifteen years ago) link
does a big hoos believe in the crazy magical buddhism with karma and nirvana and shit or the other boring kind
aw ethan you've got it all wrong - the boring buddhism has karma and nirvana and shit; they're just not magical! You might like early Tibetan Buddhism, which has monks flying around and stuff.
― rogermexico., Monday, 25 August 2008 21:15 (fifteen years ago) link
one of my favorite poems of his
:-)
;_;
― rogermexico., Monday, 25 August 2008 21:17 (fifteen years ago) link
The philosophy of the Cārvākas is what I'm looking for, but in a sense that elevates engagement with the world to an act of spiritual devotion. So that each instance of desire, compassion, sacrifice, joy and pain is an avenue to spiritual communion. (Perhaps that's exactly what they did/do -- I don't know.)
I asked this question to the guy on the bus, but I don't know that I was able to communicate it clearly: is Buddhism predicated on an unstated dissatisfaction with the material world? Phrased unkindly, the Buddhist (like many spiritual seekers/masters) seems to turn up his/her nose at the given, material world in favor of something supposedly better.
Or perhaps I'm only revealing how little I understand...
― contenderizer, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:23 (fifteen years ago) link
Keep in mind that there are a lot of different schools of buddhism, but at least within the Zen tradition the answer is a pretty emphatic no, there is nothing to be dissatisfied by in the material world, and there is nothing better.
― rogermexico., Monday, 25 August 2008 21:32 (fifteen years ago) link
You're looking for a mild form of Tantra then, which is not incompatible with Buddhism at all; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana_Buddhism.
The Charvakas were closer to being humanistic atheists, to use a modern analogue
― Vichitravirya_XI, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:35 (fifteen years ago) link
I'm not sure I see the connection between Vajrayana and the fanatical/ecstatic embrace of worldly attachments as a spiritual path. Then again, a Wiki article may not be the best place to start...
Zen might accept such an approach as being in keeping with one's Buddha nature, but again, it isn't specifically devoted to this idea.
― contenderizer, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:47 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't know that it's worth wasting time on, or that this is the best place to discuss it, but the idea's been kicking around my head for a few days...
― contenderizer, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:48 (fifteen years ago) link
And oops, kinda misread (or at least point-missingly replied to) roger mex's post. Agree that zen doesn't seem to repudiate the world as given, but I don't really know much about it.
― contenderizer, Monday, 25 August 2008 21:56 (fifteen years ago) link
I don't know if you're going to find a "fanatical embrace of worldly attachments" in any traditional form of Budddism, honestly; attachments cause bondage, and are to be transcended.
I can't think think off the top of my head which offshoot would support such a view...not even sure if Westernized "Dharma Punx" neo-schools embrace that
― Vichitravirya_XI, Monday, 25 August 2008 23:45 (fifteen years ago) link
its called hedonism and u dont need a tradition to practice it - just go for it homie
― ice crӕm, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 00:11 (fifteen years ago) link
lol
http://www.amazon.com/Dharma-Punx-Noah-Levine/dp/0060008954/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219707946&sr=8-1
He mentions he wants to consider becoming ordained (monk/priest) but on a train he starts to have sex with a Swedish woman. He tells us about his new sense of peace, but heads out to a club and begins slam dancing with other dancers because the music is so powerful...
― Vichitravirya_XI, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 00:14 (fifteen years ago) link
http://cimg2.163.com/ent/2007/6/1/20070601100716547a1.jpg
crazy magical buddhism
― dylannn, Tuesday, 26 August 2008 06:19 (fifteen years ago) link
Any info/thoughts on shambhala, vipassana, and NKT from ilxors out there? I wish there were a comparison chart widget available--select the traditions of interest, hit "submit," and generate a handy table, just like one could find in Consumer Reports!
― quincie, Saturday, 30 August 2008 23:55 (fifteen years ago) link
-- rogermexico., Monday, August 25, 2008 9:15 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark Link
def
boring is beautiful
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 31 August 2008 00:03 (fifteen years ago) link
It depends on what your definition of "is" is.
It's sad to me that Bill Clinton was just being a smartass logic-chopper when he said this. In a Buddhist context it would be much more luminous.
― Aimless, Sunday, 31 August 2008 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link
Any info/thoughts on shambhala, vipassana, and NKT from ilxors out there?
google nkt. that's all i'm saying...
i think there is a totally cool poster here who is down w/shambhala. i would trust him.
vipassana is more of (or, in fact) a technique; the other two are almost like brand names at this point, or something.
trust your gut and so forth.
but then again, i sometimes get diarrhea after drinking too much ale, and i haven't sworn off the stuff yet
― dell, Sunday, 31 August 2008 20:09 (fifteen years ago) link
im buddha
― deeznuts, Sunday, 31 August 2008 20:12 (fifteen years ago) link
aw, pawsnuts! :D :D
― dell, Sunday, 31 August 2008 20:14 (fifteen years ago) link
WHOA cult, yikes. Glad I asked.
― quincie, Sunday, 31 August 2008 20:22 (fifteen years ago) link
hahaha my zen teacher just posted this on youtube today
i'd just been posting on my fuckin w/smoothies thread, so going from this to that made me loll
― FUTURE HOOS: stronger better faster hooser (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 8 January 2009 18:49 (fifteen years ago) link
I've got a question, if someone here who practices Zen meditation would be willing to answer it. When you're sitting and watching your breathing, are you controlling it as you're watching it or not? I'm starting to get the suspicion from what I've been reading that you're supposed to be letting the autonomic system do its thing while you're sitting, but I can't seem to be conscious of my breathing without deliberately controlling it.
― tricked by a toothless cobra, Monday, 26 January 2009 02:00 (fifteen years ago) link
Nice video BTW!
― tricked by a toothless cobra, Monday, 26 January 2009 02:18 (fifteen years ago) link
Ha "autonomic system" is very particular phrasing! Who have you been reading, if you don't mind me asking?
You want to deliberately take a couple of deep breaths as you begin, but from there allow your breathing to occur naturally. Just follow. Provided your back is straight you'll probably find that you naturally begin to breathe more deeply. Or maybe you won't. Either way is fine!
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 26 January 2009 02:27 (fifteen years ago) link
I guess I picked that phrasing up from Brad Warner's teacher Gudo Nishijima, who says that the point of zazen is to keep your autonomic nervous system in balance with whatever your non-autonomic nervous system is.
Either way is really fine? I feel like I should ask a teacher about this in person, but I can't where I'm living at the moment.
― tricked by a toothless cobra, Monday, 26 January 2009 20:01 (fifteen years ago) link
Thanks for the reply though!
I'd be happy to ask my teacher (also a student of Nishijima) on your behalf if you'd like.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 26 January 2009 22:33 (fifteen years ago) link
:)
I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
― tricked by a toothless cobra, Monday, 26 January 2009 23:46 (fifteen years ago) link
Just breathe. If you imagine there is a correct way to breathe, then you will strain to achieve the correct way. Your body already knows how it's done, without any interference from your mind being necessary.
As you follow your breath, it should be like a couple waltzing, with your breath taking the lead and your mind moving smoothly in tandem as your breath leads it.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 02:10 (fifteen years ago) link
Hi Justin,
Generally, in Soto Zen, we teach counting the breaths, or observing the breath, merely as a way to settle the mind for beginners. (After a few weeks or months, the training wheels come off, and we begin open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all.) On the other hand, different teachers, even within the Soto school, will teach somewhat different perspectives on this, and observing the breath can even be a lifetime practice for some!
However, generally, we do not do anything with the breath, except to allow it to find its own, natural , easy rhythm. Master Dogen (the founder of the Soto lineage in Japan) did not really say very much about breathing. In fact, I often think that he could have said more (breathing is so important in the martial arts, for example). But, Dogen did not really seem to say much more than "know that long breaths are long, short breaths are short ... and that they are neither long nor short'. And breathe from the tanden [the physical center of gravity located in the abdomen three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel], ... in other words, breathe deeply ... but know that they come and go no where.
About breathing during zazen, Dogen Zenji said in The collection of Dogen Zenji's formal speeches and poems (Eihei-koroku), vol. 5: ... In the Small Vehicles, of which Dogen disapproved}, there are two elementary ways (of beginner's practice): one is to count the breaths, and the other is to contemplate the impurity (of the body). In other words, a practitioner of Small Vehicles regulates his breathing by counting the breaths. The practice of the Buddha-ancestors, however, is completely different from the way of Small Vehicles. An ancestral teacher has said, “It is better to have the mind of a wily fox than to follow the way of Small Vehicle self-control.” Two of the Small Vehicle schools (studied) in Japan today are the precept school (Shibunritsu) and the school based on Abhidharma-kosa (Kusha). There is also the Mahayana way of regulating breathing. That is, knowing that a long breath is long and that a short one is short. The breath reaches the tanden and leaves from there. Although the exhalation and inhalation are different, they both pass through the tanden. When you breathe abdominally, it is easy to become aware of the transiency (of life), and to harmonize the mind. My late teacher Tendo said, “The inhaled breath reaches the tanden; however, it is not that this breath comes from somewhere. For that reason, it is neither short nor long. The exhaled breath leaves from the tanden; however, it is not possible to say where this breath goes. For that reason, it is neither long nor short”. My teacher explained it in that way, and if someone were to ask me how to harmonize one's breathing, I would reply in this way: although it is not Mahayana, it is different from the Small Vehicle; though it is not of the Small Vehicles it is different from Mahayana. And if questioned further regarding what it is ultimately, I would respond that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short. http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/how ... zazen.html
In the Small Vehicles, of which Dogen disapproved}, there are two elementary ways (of beginner's practice): one is to count the breaths, and the other is to contemplate the impurity (of the body). In other words, a practitioner of Small Vehicles regulates his breathing by counting the breaths. The practice of the Buddha-ancestors, however, is completely different from the way of Small Vehicles. An ancestral teacher has said, “It is better to have the mind of a wily fox than to follow the way of Small Vehicle self-control.” Two of the Small Vehicle schools (studied) in Japan today are the precept school (Shibunritsu) and the school based on Abhidharma-kosa (Kusha).
There is also the Mahayana way of regulating breathing. That is, knowing that a long breath is long and that a short one is short. The breath reaches the tanden and leaves from there. Although the exhalation and inhalation are different, they both pass through the tanden. When you breathe abdominally, it is easy to become aware of the transiency (of life), and to harmonize the mind.
My late teacher Tendo said, “The inhaled breath reaches the tanden; however, it is not that this breath comes from somewhere. For that reason, it is neither short nor long. The exhaled breath leaves from the tanden; however, it is not possible to say where this breath goes. For that reason, it is neither long nor short”. My teacher explained it in that way, and if someone were to ask me how to harmonize one's breathing, I would reply in this way: although it is not Mahayana, it is different from the Small Vehicle; though it is not of the Small Vehicles it is different from Mahayana. And if questioned further regarding what it is ultimately, I would respond that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short.
http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/how ... zazen.html
It is, after all, goalless "just sitting".
We usually just let the breath settle into a natural rhythm. I find that 2 or 3 breaths per minute is a sign of a very balanced Zazen. Let it come and go so naturally that you forget you are breathing.
I will be giving a "sit-a-long" talk on this within a day or so, as part of our "Zazen for Beginners" series:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... l-b-1.html
Gassho, Jundo
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 03:35 (fifteen years ago) link
^^^ that's the answer from Jundo, if that wasn't obvious
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 03:36 (fifteen years ago) link
We could do a zen version of the "Who Would Win in a Fight" poll. But the winner would be Joshu's dog.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 03:58 (fifteen years ago) link
btw i have been trying to be more active w/some kind of practice lately. still need to make it over to the zen center one of these days :-/
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Tuesday, 27 January 2009 03:59 (fifteen years ago) link
― Aimless, Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:58 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark
dunno i'd probably vote for shit on a stick
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 04:05 (fifteen years ago) link
surely it would be a wildman of the dharma
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Tuesday, 27 January 2009 04:12 (fifteen years ago) link
Worrying about your breathing defeats the purpose of meditation ^_^
― torn between two borads, feelin' like a stan (Autumn Almanac), Tuesday, 27 January 2009 04:23 (fifteen years ago) link
a wildman of the dharma
looooooool
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 04:56 (fifteen years ago) link
Breathing is one area that yoga has explored more deeply than Buddhism.
― Bob Six, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 07:57 (fifteen years ago) link
HOOS, thank you for asking your teacher for me and posting his response, especially so quickly! I think that pretty much answers my question and I thought that it was very inspiring. Thanks to Aimless and Autumn Almanac too for your advice.
― tricked by a toothless cobra, Wednesday, 28 January 2009 06:21 (fifteen years ago) link
Side question, but I'm really interested in studying the evil Buddhism that the top post on this thread makes mention of. Can anyone suggest a book for me to read?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 28 January 2009 06:22 (fifteen years ago) link