Buddhism

Rode the bus with a talkative, wheelchair-bound Buddhist the other day. He was smart and affable enough, but a bit too taken with his own erudition and spiritual accomplishments. Got me to thinking: Buddhism (as I, ignorantly, understand it) is all about surrendering attachments, letting go of the illusory objects -- pysical, intellectual and emotional -- that seem to compose the world, cutting through the momentary in pursuit of the eternal. But why isn't there a spiritually congratualatory term for fanatical attachment? For being wholly devoted to the merely physical here and now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism might come close?

Those don't work, because they describe spiritual faults. I'm looking a term that boils down to "being Neruda in his youth".

In the context of Indian dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism), you're talking about the Charvaka philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka#Astika_schools.2C_Buddhism.2C_and_Jainism_versus_C.C4.81rv.C4.81ka

A Cārvāka's thought is characterized by an insistence on joyful living, whereas Buddhism and Jainism are known to emphasize penance. Enjoyment of life in a tempered manner, much like the Epicureans of Greece, was the Cārvākas' primary modus operandi.
The Cārvākas did not deny the difference between the dead and the living and recognized both as realities. A person lives, the same person dies: that is a perceived, and hence the only provable, fact. In this regard, the Cārvākas found themselves at odds with all the other religions of the time.

Rejection of the soul as separate from the body led the Cārvākas to confine their thinking to this world only.

Cool. Have you read his newest book?

Update: Yes I have. It's grebt! More satisfying in many ways than Hardcore Zen, if/because written for a smaller audience.

Also highly recommended: Bring Me The Rhinoceros. Different in style, but equally excellent.

But why isn't there a spiritually congratualatory term for fanatical attachment? For being wholly devoted to the merely physical here and now?

There is: it's "zazen" ;-)

A Cārvāka's thought is characterized by an insistence on joyful living, whereas Buddhism and Jainism are known to emphasize penance.

Now hang on just a minute there!

does a big hoos believe in the crazy magical buddhism with karma and nirvana and shit or the other boring kind

aw ethan you've got it all wrong - the boring buddhism has karma and nirvana and shit; they're just not magical! You might like early Tibetan Buddhism, which has monks flying around and stuff.

one of my favorite poems of his

:-)

;_;

:-)

The philosophy of the Cārvākas is what I'm looking for, but in a sense that elevates engagement with the world to an act of spiritual devotion. So that each instance of desire, compassion, sacrifice, joy and pain is an avenue to spiritual communion. (Perhaps that's exactly what they did/do -- I don't know.)

I asked this question to the guy on the bus, but I don't know that I was able to communicate it clearly: is Buddhism predicated on an unstated dissatisfaction with the material world? Phrased unkindly, the Buddhist (like many spiritual seekers/masters) seems to turn up his/her nose at the given, material world in favor of something supposedly better.

Or perhaps I'm only revealing how little I understand...

Keep in mind that there are a lot of different schools of buddhism, but at least within the Zen tradition the answer is a pretty emphatic no, there is nothing to be dissatisfied by in the material world, and there is nothing better.

You're looking for a mild form of Tantra then, which is not incompatible with Buddhism at all; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana_Buddhism.

The Charvakas were closer to being humanistic atheists, to use a modern analogue

I'm not sure I see the connection between Vajrayana and the fanatical/ecstatic embrace of worldly attachments as a spiritual path. Then again, a Wiki article may not be the best place to start...

Zen might accept such an approach as being in keeping with one's Buddha nature, but again, it isn't specifically devoted to this idea.

I don't know that it's worth wasting time on, or that this is the best place to discuss it, but the idea's been kicking around my head for a few days...

And oops, kinda misread (or at least point-missingly replied to) roger mex's post. Agree that zen doesn't seem to repudiate the world as given, but I don't really know much about it.

I don't know if you're going to find a "fanatical embrace of worldly attachments" in any traditional form of Budddism, honestly; attachments cause bondage, and are to be transcended.

I can't think think off the top of my head which offshoot would support such a view...not even sure if Westernized "Dharma Punx" neo-schools embrace that

its called hedonism and u dont need a tradition to practice it - just go for it homie

lol

http://www.amazon.com/Dharma-Punx-Noah-Levine/dp/0060008954/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219707946&sr=8-1

He mentions he wants to consider becoming ordained (monk/priest) but on a train he starts to have sex with a Swedish woman. He tells us about his new sense of peace, but heads out to a club and begins slam dancing with other dancers because the music is so powerful...

http://cimg2.163.com/ent/2007/6/1/20070601100716547a1.jpg

crazy magical buddhism

Any info/thoughts on shambhala, vipassana, and NKT from ilxors out there? I wish there were a comparison chart widget available--select the traditions of interest, hit "submit," and generate a handy table, just like one could find in Consumer Reports!

aw ethan you've got it all wrong - the boring buddhism has karma and nirvana and shit; they're just not magical! You might like early Tibetan Buddhism, which has monks flying around and stuff.

-- rogermexico., Monday, August 25, 2008 9:15 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark Link

def

boring is beautiful

It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

It's sad to me that Bill Clinton was just being a smartass logic-chopper when he said this. In a Buddhist context it would be much more luminous.

Any info/thoughts on shambhala, vipassana, and NKT from ilxors out there?

google nkt. that's all i'm saying...

i think there is a totally cool poster here who is down w/shambhala. i would trust him.

vipassana is more of (or, in fact) a technique; the other two are almost like brand names at this point, or something.

trust your gut and so forth.

but then again, i sometimes get diarrhea after drinking too much ale, and i haven't sworn off the stuff yet

im buddha

aw, pawsnuts! :D :D

WHOA cult, yikes. Glad I asked.

hahaha my zen teacher just posted this on youtube today

i'd just been posting on my fuckin w/smoothies thread, so going from this to that made me loll

I've got a question, if someone here who practices Zen meditation would be willing to answer it. When you're sitting and watching your breathing, are you controlling it as you're watching it or not? I'm starting to get the suspicion from what I've been reading that you're supposed to be letting the autonomic system do its thing while you're sitting, but I can't seem to be conscious of my breathing without deliberately controlling it.

Nice video BTW!

Ha "autonomic system" is very particular phrasing! Who have you been reading, if you don't mind me asking?

You want to deliberately take a couple of deep breaths as you begin, but from there allow your breathing to occur naturally. Just follow. Provided your back is straight you'll probably find that you naturally begin to breathe more deeply. Or maybe you won't. Either way is fine!

I guess I picked that phrasing up from Brad Warner's teacher Gudo Nishijima, who says that the point of zazen is to keep your autonomic nervous system in balance with whatever your non-autonomic nervous system is.

Either way is really fine? I feel like I should ask a teacher about this in person, but I can't where I'm living at the moment.

Thanks for the reply though!

I'd be happy to ask my teacher (also a student of Nishijima) on your behalf if you'd like.

:)

I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

Just breathe. If you imagine there is a correct way to breathe, then you will strain to achieve the correct way. Your body already knows how it's done, without any interference from your mind being necessary.

As you follow your breath, it should be like a couple waltzing, with your breath taking the lead and your mind moving smoothly in tandem as your breath leads it.

Hi Justin,

Generally, in Soto Zen, we teach counting the breaths, or observing the breath, merely as a way to settle the mind for beginners. (After a few weeks or months, the training wheels come off, and we begin open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all.) On the other hand, different teachers, even within the Soto school, will teach somewhat different perspectives on this, and observing the breath can even be a lifetime practice for some!

However, generally, we do not do anything with the breath, except to allow it to find its own, natural , easy rhythm. Master Dogen (the founder of the Soto lineage in Japan) did not really say very much about breathing. In fact, I often think that he could have said more (breathing is so important in the martial arts, for example). But, Dogen did not really seem to say much more than "know that long breaths are long, short breaths are short ... and that they are neither long nor short'. And breathe from the tanden [the physical center of gravity located in the abdomen three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel], ... in other words, breathe deeply ... but know that they come and go no where.

About breathing during zazen, Dogen Zenji said in The collection of Dogen Zenji's formal speeches and poems (Eihei-koroku), vol. 5: ...

In the Small Vehicles, of which Dogen disapproved}, there are two elementary ways (of beginner's practice): one is to count the breaths, and the other is to contemplate the impurity (of the body). In other words, a practitioner of Small Vehicles regulates his breathing by counting the breaths. The practice of the Buddha-ancestors, however, is completely different from the way of Small Vehicles. An ancestral teacher has said, “It is better to have the mind of a wily fox than to follow the way of Small Vehicle self-control.” Two of the Small Vehicle schools (studied) in Japan today are the precept school (Shibunritsu) and the school based on Abhidharma-kosa (Kusha).

There is also the Mahayana way of regulating breathing. That is, knowing that a long breath is long and that a short one is short. The breath reaches the tanden and leaves from there. Although the exhalation and inhalation are different, they both pass through the tanden. When you breathe abdominally, it is easy to become aware of the transiency (of life), and to harmonize the mind.

My late teacher Tendo said, “The inhaled breath reaches the tanden; however, it is not that this breath comes from somewhere. For that reason, it is neither short nor long. The exhaled breath leaves from the tanden; however, it is not possible to say where this breath goes. For that reason, it is neither long nor short”. My teacher explained it in that way, and if someone were to ask me how to harmonize one's breathing, I would reply in this way: although it is not Mahayana, it is different from the Small Vehicle; though it is not of the Small Vehicles it is different from Mahayana. And if questioned further regarding what it is ultimately, I would respond that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short.

http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/how ... zazen.html

It is, after all, goalless "just sitting".

We usually just let the breath settle into a natural rhythm. I find that 2 or 3 breaths per minute is a sign of a very balanced Zazen. Let it come and go so naturally that you forget you are breathing.

I will be giving a "sit-a-long" talk on this within a day or so, as part of our "Zazen for Beginners" series:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... l-b-1.html

Gassho, Jundo

^^^ that's the answer from Jundo, if that wasn't obvious

We could do a zen version of the "Who Would Win in a Fight" poll. But the winner would be Joshu's dog.

btw i have been trying to be more active w/some kind of practice lately. still need to make it over to the zen center one of these days :-/

We could do a zen version of the "Who Would Win in a Fight" poll. But the winner would be Joshu's dog.

― Aimless, Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:58 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

dunno i'd probably vote for shit on a stick

surely it would be a wildman of the dharma

Worrying about your breathing defeats the purpose of meditation ^_^

a wildman of the dharma

looooooool

Breathing is one area that yoga has explored more deeply than Buddhism.

HOOS, thank you for asking your teacher for me and posting his response, especially so quickly! I think that pretty much answers my question and I thought that it was very inspiring. Thanks to Aimless and Autumn Almanac too for your advice.

Side question, but I'm really interested in studying the evil Buddhism that the top post on this thread makes mention of. Can anyone suggest a book for me to read?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War

What Make You Not A Buddhist -- Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse

^^^^ just read this, really liked it!

My zafu finally saw some action today. Key question--will it tomorrow?

I was reading a section from Opening the Hand of Thought that really struck me this afternoon. I don't have it in front of me to quote it, but the gist was something like this:

We may have had many afternoons with friends or lovers in which time seems to pass without our noticing. We watch television or read a book or spend a morning in bed and before we know it many hours have passed, and we wonder "Where did the time go?" When we sit zazen we are sitting with the very passage of time. With nowhere to go and nowhere to be, we feel every moment like a cool breeze on our skin.

yo

http://blinkwax.com/pics1/dharmadan.jpg

like

yoooooo

Thanks HOOS, it's free for download at the author's website as well!