are you an atheist?

I have no idea why anyone would be wary of labeling themselves an atheist (presuming, you know, they were one). And while I imagine that most atheists are chill about it, I've known quite a few angry, butthurt, "all religion sucks" types. Enough to make me suspect that, since atheists are such a small percentage of the overall pop, a goodly chunk of 'em are uptight assholes about it.

What you say about marketable book titles is true, but it doesn't exactly refute my point. A lot of atheists do seem to enjoy buying and reading books about how religion is a rogue meme, a crime against humanity that should be eliminated.

Most statistics group secularists, nonbelievers, agnostics, and atheists into the same category, at about a billion people (China helps). In the U.S., that group is about 7%, with self-identified atheists at around 2%. Far fewer than the number of dogmatic Christians. I've never had an atheist knock on my door with pamphlets, though that would be hilarious (and probably dangerous for the pamphleteer).

Both the existence of God and the nonexistence of God have been used as justification for bad things (and good ones), I doubt spreading disbelief would necessarily lead to a better world.

Contenderizer, your argument from experience doesn't support your point, so your point hardly needs extra refuting. I guess we can say there are "many" or "a lot" of asshole atheists, but those aren't very firm numbers you're using, and they pale in comparison to asshole relgious people (at least in the U.S.). Possibly they are "butthurt" because they are frequently baited into stupid debates with dumbshit Christies if they mention they don't believe in God?

I think the 2 biggest factors that cause people to be dogmatic butthurt atheists are 1) age. seems like mellow on over time 2) the current climate in the US where other people's perverted takes on their religion is foisted onto society at-large. If religious folks, particularly the ones invested with political and administrative power, were peace-loving, charity-giving, tolerant people, I can't see many atheists being dicks about their opinion.

Contenderizer, your argument from experience doesn't support your point, so your point hardly needs extra refuting.

--Gavin

Granny - Sure, I agree that relgious zealotry and intolerance of difference probably help make atheists (especially young atheists) grudgeful. But that's neither here nor there. I wasn't saying butthurt atheists aren't justifed. Just that they exist in large numbers. 'Cuz they do.

I doubt spreading disbelief would necessarily lead to a better world.

I also doubt it would turn us all into L'Etranger and we'd suddenly forget about any reasons to smile and have babies and take care of each other.

A lot of atheists do seem to enjoy buying and reading books about how religion is a rogue meme, a crime against humanity that should be eliminated.

-- contenderizer, Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:22 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i know i do

believing stuff without any evidence is never a good idea, that's all i'm dogmatic about

i dont care if its yahweh, wiccan spirits, or wmds in iraq

also, the positive or negative effects on religion in the world have absolutely zero bearing on the question of whether god exists and i generally avoid using that argument when im talking to religionists

the positive or negative effects on religion in the world have absolutely zero bearing on the question of whether god exists

I cannot DISPROVE God's existence, and as was pointed out, that's enough for me to lose every argument I could ever forward in that direction. Which I think is a failure of human imagination on a sweeping global scale, but I'm not going to go around trying to convince people of that particular thing, because that's just my opinion. On a person-by-person basis, I don't care if you believe in God any more than I care if you bite your toenails when no one's around. Fine. I couldn't give one flat fart.

But then there's this Rogues Gallery of Really Crazy People out there, and they run countries and they kill people... I'm boring myself with this crap. It's so obvious.

I cannot DISPROVE God's existence, and as was pointed out, that's enough for me to lose every argument I could ever forward in that direction.

uh what
why is the burden of proof on you? you can't disprove a lot of things dude, that doesn't mean you have to admit they exist

I am aware of that.

o

Ban Catholics from Africa. That would make the world a nicer place almost immediately.

Maybe we don't need a god, we need a mod.

our mod is an awesome mod

no you di'int! i'm excited for results

Here's my thing about the "wouldn't fix anything" argument -- yeah, people have a little dark murderous glint in their eyes, a lot of them do, sure. Maybe it's innate. But we have this amazing ability to tame ourselves, and while one of the arguments *for* organized religion is that it does exactly that, anchors us emotionally, gives us a built-in community, etc, it also carries a heavy burden of Time and Ritual and Tradition and Crazy Shit Your Parents Told You and whatnot. The thinking of the nun who tells dying people that God hates condoms is not far off from the cracker who believes that the Confederate flag is a proud thing to wave at people -- it's clinging to something you believe to be beyond yourself, and carrying that special feeling with you in your actions until Oops! you're doing something hideously ugly.

And science can do that, too, sometimes. God knows it has given us some horrible things. But that's because we're people and we fuck up, not because the whole belief system has been engineered to never change.

The fact that people are enlessly capable of doing "hideously ugly" shit with their seemingly good ideas has nothing to do with religion. People use religion as an excuse for all types of shit, but people are awful damn good at finding excuses. In that sense, religion is like any tool: inert until put to a specifit use. I'm sure that, in the absence of religion, people who wanted to fuck each other over would come up with something.

I.e., what kenan said.

we did this before and ILX was like 85% "nope, don't believe in god."

Must have been a weird poll title.

Yeah, I'm curious how that'll work out. The results, I mean. Bcz I get a feeling there'll be a lot of "no" but I am more curious about the 'yes.' A lot of circles of friends I've been in, it's been kind of a shock when someone says they believe in god. Not that they get mistreated or mocked or whatevs, but it's always a surprise reveal. So maybe more of my buds wld say 'yes' in the option of anonymity? Or maybe we are all just godless.

Except when my boyfriend told me he believed in Jesus about two years ago and I had a crying jag/panic attack.

"not because the whole belief system has been engineered to never change."

religion changes quite a bit though. right along side cultural changes, it does. along every step of the way, superstrata is there justifying our gut moves. people are afraid that if their boys are gay, we'll be weak and get destroyed... but NO... it's hot man sex and destroying marriage that they complain about because they've got ritualistic/tradition/tabooculture to back up their gut.

even outside that, theology changes all the time. typically speaking, christian theology is about one step behind popular culture. i can't speak for other religions. but look at the increasing discussion of post-modernism in churches now. it's happening just as most academics wouldn't bother to be talking about that anymore. and it cuts right back to slavery debates or bigger the birth of protestantism... and even further back to the establishment of biblical cannon, etc etc.

it's a work in progress. hello... most interpretation is just that... exegetical... we bring our baggage in, mingle it with the text and whallah, "it's means JELLO SHOTS FOR COMMUNION!"

theology is our man made interpretation. it's our dim view of the greater whole truth ... the physical cosmology which may or may not include an actual God in the mix. if God's in there, he's deeper than the bullshit preached every sunday (or whenever's appropriate).

Except when my boyfriend told me he believed in Jesus about two years ago and I had a crying jag/panic attack.

-- Abbott, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:00 (27 minutes ago) Link

omg i would have too

He doesn't really, anymore.

if we're talking about absolute atheism ("i am certain that there is no intelligent higher power") then i vote no, but if we're talking about just "i do not actively believe in god(s)" then i vote yes.

I'm sure that, in the absence of religion, people who wanted to fuck each other over would come up with something.

no doubt but isn't the point that religion creates a scenario where people who wouldn't otherwise want to fuck people, constantly fuck people over?

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

mhmm

no doubt but isn't the point that religion creates a scenario where people who wouldn't otherwise want to fuck people over, constantly fuck people over?

Except for divisions of wealth/power/resources, of course. Those are the REAL reasons people fuck each other over.

Except for divisions of wealth/power/resources, of course. Those are the REAL reasons people fuck each other over.

Right. No religion ever played a part in *that* part of history. Nope, never. Nothing but love. ;)

religion changes quite a bit though... it's a work in progress.

I suppose you got me on a technicality there, but it would be extraordinarily disingenuous to suggest that religions change because they are such pliable, adaptive institutions. Yes, of course they change -- under pain of death. Don't we all. There are progressive religions, and I know there are some exceptions, but typically they change at roughly the rate that trees grow knots around barbed wire fences. Saying that they are "about one step behind popular culture" is not the most impressive boast I have ever heard, either. "Popular culture" is still trying to find a way to let boys kiss each other without angina. So they're slower than that? That's the fat kid in gym class, man.

Not only am I an atheist, I'm an ELITIST!:)

yes. i assert my superiority by reference to the advantages of my athe.

I think we've picked up some believers since the last poll.

Or at least some people who are not prepared to deny the possible existence of a something for fear that they might not get invited to the after death party.

I would not want to belong to any after-death party that would not have me for a member.

Love hedge-betting beliefs. :)

Actually I don't so much.

Someone in a church talk once said, "When the boat's sinking, the atheists are always the first ones to pray to God!" I do not understand this statement. Mainly I want to know why they shoved a bunch of atheists onto a boat...?

i hate it when i'm like really upset about something and i start whispering "please god, please." remnants of my grandmother's insanity.

My mom has similar: 'everyone's a Catholic in the Emergency Room.' NB she is not a member of any church.

Oh my gosh how will I know which saint's day it is if I'm in the ER?

Saints pocket calender. You can grab one in the emergency room gift shop. They keep those stocked, because they know that everyone is a Catholic in the emergency room.

Last time I was in the emergency room, I not only became Catholic, but also Mexican. Took days to wear off. I still have a box of $1 Jesus candles somewhere.

Haha, did you force your female cousins to have a lard-smearing tamal-making day?

ew

'everyone's a Catholic in the Emergency Room.'

In pr0n too!

(friends tell me)

oh geez

foxholes, too.
i think these old saws work against religion, actually. doesn't it show that people just want something to cling to in the face of impending death?

ya

All I know is, I'm sweatin' like a whore in church.