i dont care if its yahweh, wiccan spirits, or wmds in iraq
also, the positive or negative effects on religion in the world have absolutely zero bearing on the question of whether god exists and i generally avoid using that argument when im talking to religionists
― and what, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 20:48 (sixteen years ago) link
the positive or negative effects on religion in the world have absolutely zero bearing on the question of whether god exists
I cannot DISPROVE God's existence, and as was pointed out, that's enough for me to lose every argument I could ever forward in that direction. Which I think is a failure of human imagination on a sweeping global scale, but I'm not going to go around trying to convince people of that particular thing, because that's just my opinion. On a person-by-person basis, I don't care if you believe in God any more than I care if you bite your toenails when no one's around. Fine. I couldn't give one flat fart.
But then there's this Rogues Gallery of Really Crazy People out there, and they run countries and they kill people... I'm boring myself with this crap. It's so obvious.
― kenan, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link
I cannot DISPROVE God's existence, and as was pointed out, that's enough for me to lose every argument I could ever forward in that direction.
uh what why is the burden of proof on you? you can't disprove a lot of things dude, that doesn't mean you have to admit they exist
― sleep, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 20:58 (sixteen years ago) link
I am aware of that.
― kenan, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link
o
― sleep, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link
Ban Catholics from Africa. That would make the world a nicer place almost immediately.
Maybe we don't need a god, we need a mod.
― kenan, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:02 (sixteen years ago) link
our mod is an awesome mod
― andrew m., Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link
no you di'int! i'm excited for results
― Surmounter, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:11 (sixteen years ago) link
Here's my thing about the "wouldn't fix anything" argument -- yeah, people have a little dark murderous glint in their eyes, a lot of them do, sure. Maybe it's innate. But we have this amazing ability to tame ourselves, and while one of the arguments *for* organized religion is that it does exactly that, anchors us emotionally, gives us a built-in community, etc, it also carries a heavy burden of Time and Ritual and Tradition and Crazy Shit Your Parents Told You and whatnot. The thinking of the nun who tells dying people that God hates condoms is not far off from the cracker who believes that the Confederate flag is a proud thing to wave at people -- it's clinging to something you believe to be beyond yourself, and carrying that special feeling with you in your actions until Oops! you're doing something hideously ugly.
― kenan, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link
And science can do that, too, sometimes. God knows it has given us some horrible things. But that's because we're people and we fuck up, not because the whole belief system has been engineered to never change.
― kenan, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:14 (sixteen years ago) link
The fact that people are enlessly capable of doing "hideously ugly" shit with their seemingly good ideas has nothing to do with religion. People use religion as an excuse for all types of shit, but people are awful damn good at finding excuses. In that sense, religion is like any tool: inert until put to a specifit use. I'm sure that, in the absence of religion, people who wanted to fuck each other over would come up with something.
I.e., what kenan said.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:17 (sixteen years ago) link
we did this before and ILX was like 85% "nope, don't believe in god."
Must have been a weird poll title.
― milo z, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:50 (sixteen years ago) link
Yeah, I'm curious how that'll work out. The results, I mean. Bcz I get a feeling there'll be a lot of "no" but I am more curious about the 'yes.' A lot of circles of friends I've been in, it's been kind of a shock when someone says they believe in god. Not that they get mistreated or mocked or whatevs, but it's always a surprise reveal. So maybe more of my buds wld say 'yes' in the option of anonymity? Or maybe we are all just godless.
― Abbott, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 21:57 (sixteen years ago) link
Except when my boyfriend told me he believed in Jesus about two years ago and I had a crying jag/panic attack.
― Abbott, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:00 (sixteen years ago) link
"not because the whole belief system has been engineered to never change."
religion changes quite a bit though. right along side cultural changes, it does. along every step of the way, superstrata is there justifying our gut moves. people are afraid that if their boys are gay, we'll be weak and get destroyed... but NO... it's hot man sex and destroying marriage that they complain about because they've got ritualistic/tradition/tabooculture to back up their gut.
even outside that, theology changes all the time. typically speaking, christian theology is about one step behind popular culture. i can't speak for other religions. but look at the increasing discussion of post-modernism in churches now. it's happening just as most academics wouldn't bother to be talking about that anymore. and it cuts right back to slavery debates or bigger the birth of protestantism... and even further back to the establishment of biblical cannon, etc etc.
it's a work in progress. hello... most interpretation is just that... exegetical... we bring our baggage in, mingle it with the text and whallah, "it's means JELLO SHOTS FOR COMMUNION!"
theology is our man made interpretation. it's our dim view of the greater whole truth ... the physical cosmology which may or may not include an actual God in the mix. if God's in there, he's deeper than the bullshit preached every sunday (or whenever's appropriate).
― msp, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:20 (sixteen years ago) link
-- Abbott, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:00 (27 minutes ago) Link
omg i would have too
― Surmounter, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:29 (sixteen years ago) link
He doesn't really, anymore.
― Abbott, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:33 (sixteen years ago) link
if we're talking about absolute atheism ("i am certain that there is no intelligent higher power") then i vote no, but if we're talking about just "i do not actively believe in god(s)" then i vote yes.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:33 (sixteen years ago) link
I'm sure that, in the absence of religion, people who wanted to fuck each other over would come up with something.
no doubt but isn't the point that religion creates a scenario where people who wouldn't otherwise want to fuck people, constantly fuck people over?
― Granny Dainger, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 22:54 (sixteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― ILX System, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 23:01 (sixteen years ago) link
mhmm
― Surmounter, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 23:01 (sixteen years ago) link
no doubt but isn't the point that religion creates a scenario where people who wouldn't otherwise want to fuck people over, constantly fuck people over?
Except for divisions of wealth/power/resources, of course. Those are the REAL reasons people fuck each other over.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 21 May 2008 23:14 (sixteen years ago) link
Right. No religion ever played a part in *that* part of history. Nope, never. Nothing but love. ;)
religion changes quite a bit though... it's a work in progress.
I suppose you got me on a technicality there, but it would be extraordinarily disingenuous to suggest that religions change because they are such pliable, adaptive institutions. Yes, of course they change -- under pain of death. Don't we all. There are progressive religions, and I know there are some exceptions, but typically they change at roughly the rate that trees grow knots around barbed wire fences. Saying that they are "about one step behind popular culture" is not the most impressive boast I have ever heard, either. "Popular culture" is still trying to find a way to let boys kiss each other without angina. So they're slower than that? That's the fat kid in gym class, man.
― kenan, Thursday, 22 May 2008 03:43 (sixteen years ago) link
Not only am I an atheist, I'm an ELITIST!:)
― kenan, Thursday, 22 May 2008 03:44 (sixteen years ago) link
yes. i assert my superiority by reference to the advantages of my athe.
― gabbneb, Thursday, 22 May 2008 03:51 (sixteen years ago) link
I think we've picked up some believers since the last poll.
― milo z, Thursday, 22 May 2008 03:56 (sixteen years ago) link
Or at least some people who are not prepared to deny the possible existence of a something for fear that they might not get invited to the after death party.
― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 22 May 2008 06:13 (sixteen years ago) link
I would not want to belong to any after-death party that would not have me for a member.
― ledge, Thursday, 22 May 2008 12:45 (sixteen years ago) link
Love hedge-betting beliefs. :)
― Abbott, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:35 (sixteen years ago) link
Actually I don't so much.
Someone in a church talk once said, "When the boat's sinking, the atheists are always the first ones to pray to God!" I do not understand this statement. Mainly I want to know why they shoved a bunch of atheists onto a boat...?
― Abbott, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:40 (sixteen years ago) link
i hate it when i'm like really upset about something and i start whispering "please god, please." remnants of my grandmother's insanity.
― Surmounter, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:40 (sixteen years ago) link
My mom has similar: 'everyone's a Catholic in the Emergency Room.' NB she is not a member of any church.
― suzy, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:44 (sixteen years ago) link
Oh my gosh how will I know which saint's day it is if I'm in the ER?
― Abbott, Thursday, 22 May 2008 17:45 (sixteen years ago) link
Saints pocket calender. You can grab one in the emergency room gift shop. They keep those stocked, because they know that everyone is a Catholic in the emergency room.
Last time I was in the emergency room, I not only became Catholic, but also Mexican. Took days to wear off. I still have a box of $1 Jesus candles somewhere.
― kenan, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:04 (sixteen years ago) link
Haha, did you force your female cousins to have a lard-smearing tamal-making day?
― Abbott, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:05 (sixteen years ago) link
ew
― Surmounter, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:06 (sixteen years ago) link
'everyone's a Catholic in the Emergency Room.'
In pr0n too!
(friends tell me)
― StanM, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:06 (sixteen years ago) link
oh geez
― Surmounter, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:12 (sixteen years ago) link
foxholes, too. i think these old saws work against religion, actually. doesn't it show that people just want something to cling to in the face of impending death?
― Granny Dainger, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:29 (sixteen years ago) link
ya
― Surmounter, Thursday, 22 May 2008 18:30 (sixteen years ago) link
All I know is, I'm sweatin' like a whore in church.
― kenan, Thursday, 22 May 2008 19:02 (sixteen years ago) link
Non-atheists =/= believers
― jaymc, Thursday, 22 May 2008 19:04 (sixteen years ago) link
It's one of those things that doesn't at all matter to me if it's fake or not because it is so perfect that it's basically true, to me.
-- Abbott, Friday, May 23, 2008 3:56 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
It's perfect, perfect, perfect either way. If something makes my heart completely soar, its reality is only negligibly important.
-- Abbott, Friday, May 23, 2008 3:56 PM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
True even with little stuff. I once heard that every member of Devo are the same height-- Is it true? I dunno, but either way what an neat rumor. Gets a smile out of me. la la-la.
-- RabiesAngentleman, Friday, May 23, 2008 4:17 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
― and what, Friday, 23 May 2008 20:49 (sixteen years ago) link
Bahaha, if only there was a religion based on a 13-year-old boy getting hookers to play Xbox with him.
― Abbott, Friday, 23 May 2008 20:50 (sixteen years ago) link
^^^ unitarianism
― HI DERE, Friday, 23 May 2008 20:54 (sixteen years ago) link
It feels too much like group counseling, their meetings.
― Abbott, Friday, 23 May 2008 20:54 (sixteen years ago) link
I've always been curious about them. Skeptical, though. Sounds more like a club than a religion.
― Maria, Friday, 23 May 2008 23:02 (sixteen years ago) link
My parents were Unitarians for a while. Seemed like a boring liberals hang out on Sunday club.
― contenderizer, Friday, 23 May 2008 23:38 (sixteen years ago) link
I liked the Unitarian church that my parents took me to in high school, after we all swore off Catholicism. But I think it's the sort of thing where it's very much dependent on the minister and the congregation. I went to another Unitarian service in college, which was out of state, and it sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Also, even at the place my parents went, they discouraged anyone under 18 from attending the main service and had Sunday school instead. I went for a couple weeks, and we were actually assigned to read Catcher in the Rye, lol (which we were reading that year in high school anyway) -- so I went back to the main congregation. But yeah, it's the kind of place where you can get away with "A reading from Robert Fulghum's Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten."
― jaymc, Friday, 23 May 2008 23:44 (sixteen years ago) link