damn frogs
― VegemiteGrrl, Saturday, 19 March 2011 23:18 (thirteen years ago) link
Fortunately there's nothing riding on my opinion of all this, so I can just be troubled and deeply ambivalent.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 20 March 2011 04:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Greenwald on what The Liar said about prez war-making powers as a candidate:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/18/libya
― Fuck bein' hard, Dr Morbz is complicated (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link
the west's attempts to install world capitalism are getting more and more surreal and desperate. the grasp, it is crumbling, and there will be missiles before there is free food
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:29 (thirteen years ago) link
lmao where did you c+p that from?
― "biggest asshole on ILX" (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:31 (thirteen years ago) link
All US presidents, upon taking office, should receive a tattoo that reads, "Cruise missiles mean never having to say you're sorry."
I wish I knew what all these national leaders were really thinking when they decided to jump into this, because my hunch is that the calculation was only a bit more sophisticated than "nobody likes Ghadafi, so there's no real political cost for smacking him around if we all do it together".
― Aimless, Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:40 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah they were also like 'let's install world capitalism'
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:41 (thirteen years ago) link
what they are always like
― Fuck bein' hard, Dr Morbz is complicated (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:42 (thirteen years ago) link
presumably HM will still be carping on an ILE politics thread while we're all tending to the community rice-drive and reassigning living-space to accommodate everybody
about time libya had a debt crisis anyway
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:48 (thirteen years ago) link
"Our Violent Torpedos of Truth" would have been so much better than "Odyssey Dawn."
― clemenza, Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:49 (thirteen years ago) link
presumably HM will still be carping on an ILE politics thread while we're all tending to the community rice-drive and reassigning living-space to accommodate everybodyabout time libya had a debt crisis anyway― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 4:48 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 4:48 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
yeah the libyan people seem really happy with the status quo. capitalism makes people so unhappy. don't really understand the first bit tbh.
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 16:54 (thirteen years ago) link
Cold feet:
The Arab League’s secretary general, Amr Moussa, has announced an emergency meeting of the grouping, saying that the current situation isn’t what Arabs had envisaged. “What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians."
― What is here is dangerous and repulsive to us. (Sanpaku), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:26 (thirteen years ago) link
the current situation isn’t what Arabs had envisaged
due diligence lacking here
― Aimless, Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:29 (thirteen years ago) link
ruh-roh capitalism: http://ibnlive.in.com/news/libya-says-may-give-oil-deals-to-china-india/146528-2.html
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:31 (thirteen years ago) link
dont think these guys are bombing anyone (despite defence cutbacks)
http://static.ibnlive.com/pix/slideshow/03-2011/in-pics-libya/libya_unrest_coverpic1.jpg
Right after a meeting of world leaders over action on Libya, in Paris, French jets were seen flying over Libya.
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:34 (thirteen years ago) link
status quo is shit, oppressive etc like most/all modern top-down government but what is western capitalism if not opportunistic
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:35 (thirteen years ago) link
quite liked 'rockin' all over the world' myself
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:36 (thirteen years ago) link
status quo is shit, oppressive etc like most/all modern top-down government but what is western capitalism if not opportunistic― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:35 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:35 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
when you think about it, top-down governments are all pretty much the same...
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:39 (thirteen years ago) link
lj my sympathies to some degree lie with you here but you gotta realize this is like arguing about manowar with algerian goalkeeper
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:41 (thirteen years ago) link
opinions will remain steadfast and you just look as the guy who continues arguing with algerian goalkeeper
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:42 (thirteen years ago) link
get on my level
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:42 (thirteen years ago) link
lol
also 'world capitalism' is kind of a lol phrase tbh
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:44 (thirteen years ago) link
if the kids are united they'll never be divided
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:46 (thirteen years ago) link
you do realize I have slept 3 hours since fucking 2 days ago, taken narcotics and units of alcohol into the tens in the meantime and am now writing 27 pages for someone's fucking management studies course
not that the man can't kiss my arse when I'm sober and rested
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:47 (thirteen years ago) link
everyone read david c korten's shit btw, he's the don
peace
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:48 (thirteen years ago) link
you need to meet a nice girl
― Ismael Klata, Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:49 (thirteen years ago) link
will do in an hour when I wake her up
god when will this fucking project end, someone make a new board again, keep me entertained
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:52 (thirteen years ago) link
i'll go start 'i love status quo'
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:53 (thirteen years ago) link
nah dogg you always be talking funny like this it seems. listen to a hoos
― kl0p's son (k3vin k.), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:54 (thirteen years ago) link
suggest 'i love dongles' for the ilx IT crowd. would hold finite possibilities for lj, tho
― Aimless, Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:55 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=47
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 17:56 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway the french are at it again
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12800635
there's a 'USS Barry'?
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:00 (thirteen years ago) link
and am now writing 27 pages for someone's fucking management studies course
ooh, someones's smashing capitalism
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:19 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway jokes but i'd probably a BIT more cautious with the neo-neo-con shtick if the objectively-pro-gafaffi crew weren't such stinkers or, like louis, incoherent
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:22 (thirteen years ago) link
judging from newsnight the other night stwc got literally tens of mutants out to their little do
― Romford Spring (DG), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:25 (thirteen years ago) link
you do realize I have slept 3 hours since fucking 2 days ago, taken narcotics and units of alcohol into the tens in the meantime and am now writing 27 pages for someone's fucking management studies coursenot that the man can't kiss my arse when I'm sober and rested
You are a terrible person who should probably stop using the Internet, fyi
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:29 (thirteen years ago) link
why would anyone have any reason to "realize" this
― lowfat dry milquetoast (WmC), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:36 (thirteen years ago) link
his tumblr was pretty explicit
― Kerm, Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:38 (thirteen years ago) link
he's also eaten a mess of peppercorns
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:41 (thirteen years ago) link
#jaggerblood
― Kerm, Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:41 (thirteen years ago) link
omg lol
― VegemiteGrrl, Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:41 (thirteen years ago) link
milo z you are such a hardass and I am in no way pro-gadaffi
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:42 (thirteen years ago) link
― Kerm, Sunday, March 20, 2011 1:38 PM (3 minutes ago)
ah, the extra nugget that presumes a degree of gives-a-shit...it's always in there somewhere, like the baby in the king cake
― lowfat dry milquetoast (WmC), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link
I am in no way pro-gadaffi― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:42 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:42 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
'objectively' boo
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:44 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway, when ppl insult others they're just mirroring insecurities they have about themselves, so I'll assure milo he's cool to keep posting by me although maybe lay off the 'god my ex is such an alcoholic slut/prise it out of my cold dead hands' posturing
WmC your inability to detect my swagalicious register is upsetting
wish I had more time to post about resource-based economies and holistic universe-energy shit, just gonna say that empirical paradigms and debt economies suck and leave it at that
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:47 (thirteen years ago) link
wish I had more time to post about resource-based economies and holistic universe-energy shit, just gonna say that empirical paradigms and debt economies suck and leave it at that― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:47 PM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:47 PM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark
right... ok. so, about libya.
― I *\m/* metal soooo much (history mayne), Sunday, 20 March 2011 18:49 (thirteen years ago) link
never gets up to full speed and very slow on the turn
― utterfilth (whatever), Sunday, 20 March 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link
Doesn't request authorization from Congressional leaders on deck getting sun tans.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 20 March 2011 19:18 (thirteen years ago) link
lol greenwald never change:
How, then, can Obama's campaign position possibly be reconciled with his ordering military action in Libya without Congressional approval (something, it should be said, he has not yet done)?
― difficult listening hour, Sunday, 20 March 2011 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link
"He engaged in a likely pattern of deception both to his probation officers and the court," Judge Suzanne Segal said in issuing her ruling.The preliminary bail hearing began with Segal asking the defendant -- dressed in gray slacks and a white and yellow striped T-shirt, with handcuffs and chain around his waist -- what his true name was."Mark Basseley Yousseff," he replied.The judge then asked again, what is your name? "Mark Basseley," he said this time, again without spelling the name out.
The preliminary bail hearing began with Segal asking the defendant -- dressed in gray slacks and a white and yellow striped T-shirt, with handcuffs and chain around his waist -- what his true name was.
"Mark Basseley Yousseff," he replied.
The judge then asked again, what is your name?
"Mark Basseley," he said this time, again without spelling the name out.
Don't ever stop changing your name.
― die face down in some dude's pool (how's life), Friday, 28 September 2012 14:10 (eleven years ago) link
Will the US "Osama" whatever suspects it identifies in the murders?
...(I)t is difficult to imagine a more menacing policy: if the US president continues simply to execute anyone he decides should die with drones and bombs, then the only certain outcome is that there will be more and more people who view the US as a justifiable target for retaliation and vengeance. That the White House is eager to have it known that they are rejecting the option of arrest and due process in favor of secret assassination is a potent reflection of how degraded American political culture is regarding such matters, of how normalized the most extremist theories of power have become.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/benghazi-attack-suspects-drones
― cancer, kizz my hairy irish azz (Dr Morbius), Friday, 19 October 2012 16:23 (eleven years ago) link
so uh, how's this going?
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 21 May 2017 09:23 (seven years ago) link
wow i forgot what a fly in the ointment i was in this thread :/
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 21 May 2017 09:24 (seven years ago) link
fwiw, last I heard, remnants of Gidoffy's army were fucking up Mali, working out of bases in southern Libya and the Libyan civil war continues to cause havoc, including plenty of civilian deaths. Thousands of refugees fleeing toward Italy in anything that floats and in some things that can't float for very long. I have no regrets concerning the position I took itt.
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 21 May 2017 18:54 (seven years ago) link
so uh i feel a little odd for reviving this when i did :o
re: our long dispute upthread, a parliamentary report into the intervention concludes that it strengthened ISIL
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAu7XUAUwAA5LJp?format=jpg&name=large
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 26 May 2017 07:55 (seven years ago) link
Ah, the old "not informed by accurate intelligence" excuse again.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Friday, 26 May 2017 08:00 (seven years ago) link
"honest mistake guv!"
it's almost as if the overstatement of civilian danger, terrorist ties of the rebels, and long-term consequences were totally predictable and pointed out in real-time
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 26 May 2017 08:16 (seven years ago) link
Not just pointed out - the UK actively worked with Qaddafi to suppress the same groups when it was expedient!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/24/britain-family-gaddafi-legal
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Friday, 26 May 2017 08:26 (seven years ago) link
Tracer Hand, do you have a link to read the whole of that document? Seems important!
A further wrinkle I didn't know about was that the West also propped up Hissein Habré's murderous regime in Chad in the eighties because he fought Libyans for a bit. The policy has really been all over the place, and the only constant has been a lot of North African civilians killed.
― Frederik B, Friday, 26 May 2017 11:18 (seven years ago) link
i think this is it -
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmfaff/119/119.pdf
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 26 May 2017 17:33 (seven years ago) link
Thanks! Will work my way through it all, but began with reading the conclusion, and that is pretty great as well. Is it a truly bi-partisan report? Because it seems impressively even handed, but I don't know enough to say. Don't know anyone on the committee, for instance.
― Frederik B, Friday, 26 May 2017 17:43 (seven years ago) link
Reminds me of the influence of Chalabi and Iraqi exiles, and PNAC neocons, in 2002:
the political momentum to propose Resolution 1973 began in France...“the decisions of President Sarkozy and his Administration were driven by Libyan exilesgetting allies within the French intellectual establishment who were anxious to push for areal change in Libya.”On 2 April 2011, Sidney Blumenthal, adviser and unofficial intelligence analyst to the then United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, reported this conversation with French intelligence officers to the Secretary of State. According to these individuals Sarkozy’s plans are driven by the following issues:a. A desire to gain a greater share of Libya oil production,b. Increase French influence in North Africa,c. Improve his internal political situation in France,d. Provide the French military with an opportunity to reassert its position in the world,e. Address the concern of his advisors over Qaddafi’s long term plans to supplant France as the dominant power in Francophone Africa.
“the decisions of President Sarkozy and his Administration were driven by Libyan exilesgetting allies within the French intellectual establishment who were anxious to push for areal change in Libya.”
On 2 April 2011, Sidney Blumenthal, adviser and unofficial intelligence analyst to the then United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, reported this conversation with French intelligence officers to the Secretary of State. According to these individuals Sarkozy’s plans are driven by the following issues:a. A desire to gain a greater share of Libya oil production,b. Increase French influence in North Africa,c. Improve his internal political situation in France,d. Provide the French military with an opportunity to reassert its position in the world,e. Address the concern of his advisors over Qaddafi’s long term plans to supplant France as the dominant power in Francophone Africa.
― it's just locker room treason (Sanpaku), Friday, 26 May 2017 18:08 (seven years ago) link
Yeah, the whole chapter is pretty damning. Sarkozy is such a shithead.
― Frederik B, Friday, 26 May 2017 18:21 (seven years ago) link
Xps, it's a mixture. Most of the Labour MPs (Clywd, Gapes, Hendrick iirc) are unrepentant adventurists, though Qureshi isn't. Quite a few of the Tories (Blunt, Baron and Rosindell) have voted against, or not bothered to turn up for votes on, military actions in the past. You also have the world's only pro-Russia Pole (Dan Kawczynski). It's a weird blend of people but that probably works in its favour.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Friday, 26 May 2017 18:35 (seven years ago) link
81. Unpublished House of Commons Library research found that the UK spent some £320 million on bombing Libya and approximately £25 million on reconstruction programmes. However, those figures do not include the UK’s contribution to multilateral reconstruction projects, such as those run by the United Nations. In addition, Dr Adrian Gallagher, University of Leeds, pointed out that the Government reduced its estimate of the cost of the military intervention from £320 million to £234 million. Taking into account UK contributions to programmes run by the United Nations, which had overall responsibility for co-ordinating reconstruction, and the European Union, Dr Gallagher concluded that the UK “spent just under half as much (48.72%) on rebuild than on intervention.”
― Frederik B, Saturday, 27 May 2017 14:25 (seven years ago) link
value for money much, UK?
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 27 May 2017 22:04 (seven years ago) link
ican we call this a success now
― unorthodox economic revenge (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 20 October 2011 15:26 (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― ogmor, Wednesday, 3 July 2019 15:29 (four years ago) link
:/
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 16:04 (four years ago) link
Migrants stranded in Libya endure sewage, maggots, disease
By intent, and certainly a politically more palatable solution to the migrant problem than hosting the concentration camps in Italy.
Backed by Italy, Libya enlists militias to stop migrants
I anticipate this model to stop refugees fleeing overpopulation, resource scarcity, and the climate crisis will promoted in other nations of the Maghreb and West Asia (and maybe even Mexico).
― despondently sipping tomato soup (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 16:10 (four years ago) link
I got handed a lot of shit for saying this over and over.
I am totally unconvinced that the people of Libya are going to benefit from this war, however much this is invoked as the sole purpose of our bombing.― Aimless, Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:58 AM (eight years ago)
― Aimless, Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:58 AM (eight years ago)
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 17:35 (four years ago) link
Post WWII, the populations that have benefited from foreign military/intelligence agency intervention (South Korea, Kosovo) are utterly dwarfed by those that have been harmed. We're batting well under 0.1.
― despondently sipping tomato soup (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 17:39 (four years ago) link
I am totally unconvinced that the people of Libya are going to benefit from this war, however much this is invoked as the sole purpose of our bombing.
idk what yr crowing about, you think they would have been better off getting massacred by Khadhafee? yeah ok whatever, this is an unprovable hypothesis.
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 3 July 2019 17:56 (four years ago) link
There would have been a crackdown on regime change plotters in Benghazi (who had been collaborating with French military intelligence since late 2010), and least those who didn't obtain asylum. However, it wouldn't have thrown the nation into regional (and tribal) conflict for a decade.
Often, dictatorial rule is preferable to civil conflict.
― despondently sipping tomato soup (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 18:28 (four years ago) link
Ah, yes, Οὖτις, you were the one who looked at my stated misgivings about our participation in the Libyan war and concluded that I thought "colonialism was worse than genocide". How genocide crept into the discussion is a mystery only you can solve.
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 18:39 (four years ago) link
"humanitarian intervention" is a bad idea that otherwise sensible ppl keep falling for
obama said in some interview late in his term that intervening in libya was his worst mistake as president, and it's hard not to agree
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 3 July 2019 18:45 (four years ago) link
piracy on the Mediterranean, seems a little unlikely
― goole, Thursday, 25 August 2011 16:58 (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― ogmor, Thursday, 4 July 2019 09:22 (four years ago) link
does anyone want to intervene to topple haftar/the army? terrorising the south, indiscriminately or at least inaccurately shelling tripoli, how many dead civilians would it take?
― ogmor, Thursday, 4 July 2019 09:34 (four years ago) link
are open air slave markets not a big issue in libya now too?
― ||||||||, Thursday, 4 July 2019 10:05 (four years ago) link
― despondently sipping tomato soup (Sanpaku), 3. juli 2019 20:28 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
My main problem with this is that dictatorial rule is pretty inherently unstable, and most often ends in civil conflict anyway.
― Frederik B, Thursday, 4 July 2019 10:36 (four years ago) link
Both Haftar and Jarvanka are UAE clients. There won't be a US led intervention.
― despondently sipping tomato soup (Sanpaku), Thursday, 4 July 2019 16:06 (four years ago) link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/24/mercenaries-flock-to-libya-raising-fears-of-prolonged-war
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 24 December 2019 11:14 (four years ago) link
Of course. Saudi Arabia has been using the same janjaweed to guard their own border with Yemen for several years, having learned how useless their own National Guard (ie, army) is.
― Stupor is appropriate (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 24 December 2019 21:53 (four years ago) link
Interesting article but doesn't say that NATO bombed Libya's Great ManMade River & destroyed a pipe factory, causing water scarcity since 2011. Now 4 out of abt 7 million Libyans could “face imminent water problems,” a potential “humanitarian disaster.” https://t.co/je5ASKbfGq— Lucia Pradella (@LuGuangMing) August 18, 2021
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 18 August 2021 11:51 (two years ago) link
Up to 20,000 are now believed dead in Libya. This tragedy hasn't just been caused by floods, but by NATO's 2011 military aggression and ongoing sanctions that have decimated the country and undermined its ability to prepare for extreme weather events. https://t.co/mUekVkd5Vw 1/2— Kai Heron (@KaiHeron) September 14, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 14 September 2023 12:20 (nine months ago) link
Community notes does its job again
Libya was once one of Africa's most prosperous countries, but years of lawlessness have left it a fragile, divided state - ill-prepared to cope with the forces unleashed by a natural disaster. https://t.co/aFGO37ettU— BBC News Africa (@BBCAfrica) September 13, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 15 September 2023 17:34 (nine months ago) link