"the protest i was at yesterday did not exist"
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 05:55 (thirteen years ago) link
should have put 'responsibility' in scare quotes, or not because scare quotes are rubbish
what I'm saying is that it's easy to complain about the latest hot domestic issue of the day, but harder to complain about ongoing evils perpetuated by the state organ of the country in which one lives, especially when they exist in a hazy, shady routine of just-so acceptance
sleeve, I'm saying that there is some opposition, but it's on a case-by-case basis, and a lot of stuff is overlooked! plus, clearly some people do regularly oppose Western interventionism
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, 21 March 2011 05:56 (thirteen years ago) link
the thing is, the stereotype of the American left is that the opposite is true. Like back in the 90s, we joked about how everyone wanted to Free Tibet, but nobody really gave a shit about the fucked up domestic situation.
― sarahel, Monday, 21 March 2011 05:57 (thirteen years ago) link
louis you are now officially talking out of your ass with this
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, March 21, 2011 1:52 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
for context, this is coming from someone who once bombed shopping malls in his free time
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 05:58 (thirteen years ago) link
granted i kind of gave up on louis' post, but the solution to the libyan problem is for the us & the uk to buy everyone a house & set up schools for them to get a good education?
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Hoos bombed a shopping mall???
― ℳℴℯ ❤\(◕‿◕✿ (Princess TamTam), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Why isn't he in federal prison
louis is kind of a big new age hippie huh
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:01 (thirteen years ago) link
really not trying to be a dick, but that post is utterly insane
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:01 (thirteen years ago) link
harder to complain about ongoing evils perpetuated by the state organ of the country in which one lives, especially when they exist in a hazy, shady routine of just-so acceptance
it is actually not harder to complain. you might be marginalized by doing so in the media, because that's the nature of the discourse in this country, but it's just as easy to speak out, and among vast swathes of the american populace in different kinds of language it happens often
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:02 (thirteen years ago) link
that seems to be the core of your beef with the american left such as it is, and it's flat out wrong.
i guess insane is the wrong word, but something like that
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:02 (thirteen years ago) link
lj it's more like the opposition is just straight up ignored but we do it anyway because what the hell else can you do except die or go to jail.
seriously dude I am probably fairly close to you in terms of analysis but you are still looking around for institutions to point fingers at, when imo the real problem (to paraphrase Octavia Butler) is that we as a species have been cursed with both intelligence and hardwired hierarchical behavior.
anyway, props to the suicide fighter pilot.
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:02 (thirteen years ago) link
but we're not talking about libya. let's talk about libya.
can we not use the phrase "state organ" cuz i want to stop thinking about the US with a dangling penis
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:03 (thirteen years ago) link
florida imo
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:04 (thirteen years ago) link
it has one, it's called 'florida'
xp dammit
― An adult guest rapper (donna rouge), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:04 (thirteen years ago) link
haha NICE JOB BRINGING THE TOPIC BACK TO LIBYA HOOS
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:05 (thirteen years ago) link
texas is this country's balls amirite
― omar little, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:05 (thirteen years ago) link
HOOS, I don't have beef with the American left; I know it exists and that it does a hell of a lot of good work! I know my Jacque Fresco from my David Korten etc etc etc and that you, sleeve and many others on ILX stand up to this shit. But there are also plenty of people who only take it halfway. Anyway, this is all distracting from my main point, which is that armed coercion is evil.
Hardwired hierarchical behavior? That's being evolved out of us as I type.
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:10 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah get back to me on that in a decade or so
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:16 (thirteen years ago) link
my main point, which is that armed coercion is evil.
that's succinct, at least, though I disagree.
― sarahel, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:19 (thirteen years ago) link
"I make these points because while ILX's Americans rightfully despair at much of the shit occurring in their country, they don't all get so worked up when America takes it overseas and exercises its responsibility"
^^^gonna concede that this was muddled - but the rest I stand by
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:36 (thirteen years ago) link
as ever, ILX pounces on the one muddled line and ignores the rest
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:37 (thirteen years ago) link
youtube is p wonderful, i agree
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:37 (thirteen years ago) link
fwiw i thought this line was pretty muddled too
If the USA or the UK had an iota of compassion towards the people oppressed by Gaddafi, they'd have already used their vast wealth to organize free food, shelter and education for every Libyan.
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:38 (thirteen years ago) link
right, because everyone in the USA is adequately educated, housed and fed!
― sarahel, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:39 (thirteen years ago) link
read the very next sentence sarahel
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:40 (thirteen years ago) link
But they can't even do that for their own people, so why say it any other way than with bombs?
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:40 (thirteen years ago) link
not that that, uh, clears anything up
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, March 21, 2011 6:37 AM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark
ideas
-some people are ignoring the rest because they think it is absurd and aren't going to bother arguing with someone they see as so far off the deep end
-some people are ignoring the rest because they agree with you and are only focusing on the portion that seems to form a large part of the point you were making before you decided to dissemble it into 'military force is bad'
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:40 (thirteen years ago) link
i have work in the morning. i'm going to bed. good night all.
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:42 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway louis it should be obvious to you or to anyone that pays attention to world affairs that "buy everyone in the middle east a reasonable house and provide them with good schooling" and "bomb the shit out of them for no reason" is not an either/or binary -- in iraq we've failed for many, many reasons but you could probably boil it down succinctly to the fact that we've operated too far towards the latter pole
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:44 (thirteen years ago) link
ok, let me break this down
- I made the point that America conjures institutionally oppressive and ongoing situations both domestically and overseas. These are not flashpoints so much as a status quo.
- I then made the point that while many people, not all present but many people, are up in arms about individual policies or moments of intervention, they are not so quick to rail against the system and its ongoing ills, especially when they form the fabric of capitalist logic.
- Military force is only useful for repelling other military force; it is a self-creating paradigm with dreadful human collateral and it is the world fucking itself over.
this is necessarily polarized but it's the principle, dammit
― WD-40 (acoleuthic), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:48 (thirteen years ago) link
yes but the problem is that principles very rarely equal solutions
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:51 (thirteen years ago) link
lots of people I know rail against the system and its ongoing ills vis a vis the "fabric of capitalist logic" - and they often use it as an excuse to avoid dealing with difficult issues and decisions about individual policies and moments of intervention.
― sarahel, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:52 (thirteen years ago) link
they are not so quick to rail against the system and its ongoing ills, especially when they form the fabric of capitalist logic.
this is also kind of 'hi, welcome to activism, nice to have you'
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:54 (thirteen years ago) link
lol!
― sarahel, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:54 (thirteen years ago) link
the fabric of capitalist logic i inhale it
― blingee cummings (J0rdan S.), Monday, 21 March 2011 06:55 (thirteen years ago) link
does it smell fresh?
― sarahel, Monday, 21 March 2011 06:56 (thirteen years ago) link
the idea that this is an easy way to a fast buck or a poll boost is idiotic
I may be idiotic but I didn't say it was an easy way. I don't think this is the reason Sarko's doing it, but he's a politician facing electoral defeats, it's not like it won't have crossed his mind.
― Ned Trifle (Notinmyname), Monday, 21 March 2011 12:20 (thirteen years ago) link
That and wanting to make up for being totally on the wrong side of everything with the Tunisia uprising
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Monday, 21 March 2011 12:22 (thirteen years ago) link
(and with, like, Tunisia in general for the last 100 years)
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Monday, 21 March 2011 12:23 (thirteen years ago) link
I think I continue to miss whether this operation has a stated goal aside from the vague "no-fly zone." Is the idea that by taking out Qaddafi's heavy weapons and planes that the rebels can then regroup and conceivably take out Qaddafi themselves (even though we/the UN has explicitly stated that taking out Qaddafi is not the goal)? What do we want to the rebels to gain, survival or victory?
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 21 March 2011 12:57 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost to Notinmyname, I wasn't trying to insult anyone itt or pretend that cynical motives aren't part of the whole mix. My posts come from cutting between ILX and some of the more aggravating nonsense on Guardian comment threads. I'm not in the business of calling anyone on ILX idiotic, especially not in such a complicated situation.
― Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Monday, 21 March 2011 12:59 (thirteen years ago) link
I think I continue to miss whether this operation has a stated goal aside from the vague "no-fly zone." Is the idea that by taking out Qaddafi's heavy weapons and planes that the rebels can then regroup and conceivably take out Qaddafi themselves (even though we/the UN has explicitly stated that taking out Qaddafi is not the goal)? What do we want to the rebels to gain, survival or victory?― Josh in Chicago, Monday, March 21, 2011 12:57 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, March 21, 2011 12:57 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
i agree there is too much vagueness, and the TPM blogpost j0rdan linked to had things i agreed with too, on the question of momentum. the turnaround in US opinion hasn't been adequately been explained. meanwhile, the attacks seem to be exceeding what was mandated. there's a lot to worry about.
on the french thing: genuine question: is the french public in favour of doing this, to the extent it would help sarko in the election? i thought the french were generally solidly against war.
― BIG GERTRUDE aka the steindriver (history mayne), Monday, 21 March 2011 13:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Can we start this thread again with all the Louis/ History Mayne shite taken out?
― Tom D (Tom D.), Monday, 21 March 2011 13:04 (thirteen years ago) link
An American general on the news last night (it was unclear if he was was retired or not) was very frank that this was about removing Gaddafi, and that the military operations have already gone far beyond establishing a no-fly zone i.e. missile strikes have been hitting convoys, tanks, etc. And he said the "rhetoric" of the Arab League that "we cannot stand idly by" when a leader targets his own people was obviously laughable since that is what half of them are currently doing, i.e. the AL sees this as a way to get rid of a loose cannon that none of them like. How this squares with yesterday's statements from the AL to the effect of "whoa, whoa, we thought we were supporting a no-fly zone, not a full-scale NATO assault" I don't know.
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Monday, 21 March 2011 13:04 (thirteen years ago) link
... not specifically what Louis/HM posted themselves (xp)
― Tom D (Tom D.), Monday, 21 March 2011 13:05 (thirteen years ago) link
Basically it seems like the idea is to reduce Gaddafi's heavy weapons just to the point where the rebels can win "by themselves".
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Monday, 21 March 2011 13:10 (thirteen years ago) link