Twin Peaks: Classic or Dud?

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it's like saying Citizen Kane is unecessary if you know "Rosebud" is Marion Davies’s clitoris.

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Why do you have to grant them equal diegetic weight? One is canonical re: the rest of the series, and the other isn't canon but is still a great piece of film/tv-making.

Leee, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Cultural conditioning toward Aristotlian logic???

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:56 (seventeen years ago) link

Ha, they had season 2 in the supermarket over here. I'm going to rewatch everything now - can someone remind me what the correct order is?

Season 1
Season 2
Fire Walk With Me movie?

(or is the movie somewhere halfway like with the Xfiles movie? (that's Season 1-5, movie, Season 6-9) )

StanM, Thursday, 5 April 2007 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

watch Fire Walk With Me first

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 5 April 2007 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

(chronologically it happens before the first season, even though it was produced afterwards, and tends not to make a lot of sense without the TV series)

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 5 April 2007 17:26 (seventeen years ago) link

this is all moot if youve seen it all before, but it seems like the show isnt as cool if you watch FWWM first

69, Thursday, 5 April 2007 17:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Thx, guys! You didn't say the same thing, but now I remember what it was like - I'm going to watch the show first and then the movie, just like all those years ago. Movie first = too many spoilers that undermine the suspense of the series.

StanM, Thursday, 5 April 2007 18:05 (seventeen years ago) link

3x. I watched the movie after the series and while the movie might have had more impact before, it definitely would have ruined a lot of series stuff.

Jordan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Movie first = too many spoilers that undermine the suspense of the series.

yeah this is kinda undeniable

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 5 April 2007 18:07 (seventeen years ago) link

I am watching Twin Peaks season 2 for the first time on the new DVDs and one thing that stands out for me is how funny it is! Laughs galore.

Also, why didn't they have a spin-off show about Lucy Moran, Andy the policeman and Dick Tremaine? That would have been awesome. Every line that Lucy has = golden.

n/a, Thursday, 5 April 2007 18:31 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah the scene introducing Tremaine with Hawk and Lucy = teh roflz.

"Prohibited"

"Robot"

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 5 April 2007 18:33 (seventeen years ago) link

That's why I love season 2! Joeks and joeks.

Jordan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 18:45 (seventeen years ago) link

My set arrived today and I just watched the first disc. So good.
Nice of them to stick the Inland Empire trailer on there. August 14 DVD release for that now, apparently. I had heard June.

marmotwolof, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 10:38 (seventeen years ago) link

Can someone explain the deal with the white lodge? I get the black lodge, but the white lodge I don't get.

Drooone, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link

White Lodge = Love
Black Lodge = Fear

marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:17 (seventeen years ago) link

try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lodge

It remains unclear whether the White and Black Lodges are disparate realms. One could interpret the White Lodge and Black Lodge as one and the same place—a possibility perhaps hinted at by the mirrored black and white tiling throughout the lodge. Indeed, neither black nor white stand out conspicuously in the Lodge; the dominant colour is the blood-red drapes in the background. This notion that the two Lodges are "one and the same" is consistent with the presence of other dualistic phenomena which seem to characterise the Lodge, such as the existence of one's doppelganger in apparently the same place and time.

Another conception of the Black Lodge is that it is a realm of total evil which has usurped or absorbed its White counterpart. During the second season, Windom Earle relates a past-tense story about the White Lodge which is replete with Edenic imagery, possibly suggesting that the White Lodge belonged to a time now lost or forgotten. Earle then describes the Black Lodge in the present tense, perhaps indicating that it has replaced the White Lodge

marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:22 (seventeen years ago) link

great, tank you!

Drooone, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:24 (seventeen years ago) link

test

deeznuts, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:25 (seventeen years ago) link

sry

deeznuts, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I just finished watching the last disc tonight, btw. Still love the Black Lodge scenes in the finale.

It's trippy watching those interviews directly after the series and seeing what everyone looks like now.

marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes, I recently watched the last episode, but I don't have the dvds. Nor do I have FWWM. Which I haven't seen, but really want to.


The Black Lodge scenes are very hugely good, indeed.

Drooone, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:33 (seventeen years ago) link

FWWM is good stuff, especially if you liked the finale. I'm going to watch that next, and then my S1 DVDs again to fill in the little things I might have forgotten.

marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 03:37 (seventeen years ago) link

When is the second series going to hurry the fuck up and come out on DVD in Britain anyway?

Matt DC, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:33 (seventeen years ago) link

My R1 discs turned up at the weekend and I finished the first disc last night. Actually, I was kind of surprised how familiar it all was, almost exactly as I remembered it. The oddest thing for me has been the contrast between skin tone and lip colour, nominally against a wood background - it happens most with Ben Horne and Lucy - where the lips look almost like they're floating. What produces this effect?

xpost to Matt - there's a German version out in R2 already if you can't play R1.

aldo, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 08:40 (seventeen years ago) link

Watched season 2 over the last couple of weeks and it was so so so good.
Watched FWWM on Monday and it was so so so bad.

n/a, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Re: FWWM

Okay, so the mystical stuff doesn't really make sense, but that doesn't matter. They totally betrayed the tone and the point of the TV show, but that wouldn't have mattered if the movie was good. The main problems were: 1) Sheryl Lee kinda sucks, 2) Laura Palmer is the least interesting character in the whole show, and 3) It made me want to kill myself.

n/a, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:06 (seventeen years ago) link

ah parts of FWWM are great - like the dinner scene where Leland's asking Laura if she's "clean", "did you wash your hands?" etc. uber-creepy.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:04 (seventeen years ago) link

"betraying tone" -- this is one of Lynch's major artistic tropes now

sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:24 (seventeen years ago) link

How so?

n/a, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I would say Lynch's drive to create a sense of the uncanny in the audience has progressively eliminated the comfort-producing, familiar elements in his work.

sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:47 (seventeen years ago) link

I think the movie is fairly weak myself (the only Lynch movie I like even less is Wild at Heart), it just feels really slapped together, a Frankenstein of leftovers - but it does have its moments of brilliance.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:57 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought FWWM was terrible the first time I saw it, but it grew on me. We'll see how I feel about it now.

marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Chris Isaak is kinda funny in it

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:10 (seventeen years ago) link

I remember liking FWWM because it gave the viewer more room to interpret "Bob" as a persona imagined by Laura to shield her from the psychological damage of her daddy abusing her, instead of the evil spirit explanation which I always found kinda silly and unnecessarily Manichean. (See my point upthread about externalizing evil.)

Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:11 (seventeen years ago) link

But I haven't seen it ever since I was teen, should probably rewatch it.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't have a problem with the externalized evil thing - its still something that is given power by the consent of the inhabiting individual (see Leland's death speech). Plus the abstract/pagan "evil in the woods" is a very classically American trope (cf. Hawthorne)

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:21 (seventeen years ago) link

it gave the viewer more room to interpret "Bob" as a persona imagined by Laura to shield her from the psychological damage of her daddy abusing her, instead of the evil spirit


yeah, but the series kind of blows that deal from the get go, I guess as soon as Sarah sees Bob, and then Coop's dream. I don't know how spoilery this thread is already but you know who Bob is possessing at the end of the series, right? I guess I don't see how the series would work without the whole Black Lodge thing.

marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I like how Tuomas cannot abide anything supernatural/spiritual in any form, even if its in a fuckin artsy TV show.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:54 (seventeen years ago) link

one month passes...

They showed the final episode on Finnish TV yesterday, and I think it's been 15 years since I last saw the episode, so I remembered little of it. I was kinda disappointed how the whole thing ended; from what I've gathered, the makers of the series knew that it'd be cancelled when the final episode was filmed, so maybe they should've tried a bit more to create some sort of a closure.

The whole story about the White Lodge and the Black Lodge was getting kinda corny, sounding like some cheap horror or fantasy story, so I'm glad Lynch dealt with the scene in the Black Lodge in his patented surreal way rather than making it some grandiose battle between forces of good and evil. However, the actual scene is way too long; it recycles previously seen characters and themes without bringing in much new, and a lot of it doesn't really seem to serve any purpose except weirdness for weirdness's sake. I think it's pretty obvious that Lynch was just making up most of it as it went along; from what I've read he discarded a lot of the original script written by Frost, Peyton & Engels. I sorta like the idea about a struggle between "good" and "evil" Cooper, but I found the final resolution to be lacking, mainly because how the character of Cooper is handled.

The whole second season seems to be dealing with the idea of good vs. and the struggle of this forces inside people. The Black vs. White Lodge was the most obvious reference here, but I thought it was more interesting how, during the second season, characters originally coded as "evil" show a gentler side, and vice versa. Ben Horne really seems to want become a better man, Leo tries to fight against Windom Earle and wanted to save Shelly, Bobby is showing genuine love towards Shelly, etc. On the other hand, Sheriff Truman is blinded by his love for Jocelyn, Pete seems to let Catherine use him, James cheats on Donna, Doc Hayward goes mad and kills/wounds Ben, etc.

But little character growth happens with Cooper. From the very beginning until before the last few scenes he was this sort of a superhero, an epitome of goodness (which, to be honest, makes him a rather boring character). So him succumbing to evil in the Black Lodge comes mostly out of the blue. Okay, his supposed flaw is that he once fell in love with Windom Earle's wife, which eventually caused her death, and judging from the scene in the Black Lodge, this was what Bob uses against him. But since this episode is long in the past, and Cooper seems to have become a better man after that, it has carries little emotional resonance for the viewer, so him losing the test put upon him in the Black Lodge doesn't feel right. It seems more like the ending was just made up for the shock value of seeing Cooper possessed by Bob.

An alternative reading of the ending is that Cooper doesn't succumb to evil, that he actually sells his soul to Windom Earle - and, therefore, to Bob - in exchange of saving Annie from the Lodge, which allows Bob to occupy his body. I guess this interpretation is more in line with Cooper's character, but it still seems like a pretty cliched and flat way of ending such an interesting series.

Tuomas, Monday, 28 May 2007 13:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Here's some other questions that came to my mind while watching the last few episodes:

* In the final episode, why are Norma and Shelly and everyone else acting as if nothing has happened, even though Annie was kidnapped the night before in front of their own eyes?

* Similarly, when Audrey comes to the bank, why isn't she at all disturbed from the fact that her father was wounded/killed the night before?

* What the hell happened to Josie? Did Bob kill her, and if so, why? Is she now haunting Great Northern?

* What was the Log Lady's and her husband's role in all of this? Apparently they knew about the Black Lodge, since she provides Cooper with the jar of oil.

* What's with the twitching of hands exhibited by Coop and Pete in the third to last episode?

Tuomas, Monday, 28 May 2007 13:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Also:

* Whatever happened to Mike, the one-armed man? He seemed bent on catching Bob, yet after Leland was captured he was never seen again. He knew what Bob was, so surely he also knew Bob wasn't confined to Leland's body?

* What's the deal with the Arthurian imagery in the final episode: Glastonbury Grove, the twelve trouts... And for some reason Windom Earle seemed to have needed a "queen" (Miss Twin Peaks) to enter the black lodge, even though Cooper didn't.

Tuomas, Monday, 28 May 2007 14:31 (seventeen years ago) link

One of Lynch's hallmark concerns is the construction and destruction of familiarity.

sexyDancer, Monday, 28 May 2007 14:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Okay, his supposed flaw is that he once fell in love with Windom Earle's wife,

no its that he fell in love with Annie/didn't learn from his previous mistake.

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 28 May 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

What was wrong in felling love with Annie? It's not like she was anyone's wife or anything. Anyway, my point is that because throughout the show Cooper is shown as this thoroughly good and decent superman, his supposed fall from grace doesn't feel convincing. Cooper and Sheriff Truman are the least interesting among the main characters, because they're given less humanity than the other, morally less sound Twin Peaks residents.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 06:21 (sixteen years ago) link

From what I've gathered Lynch had pretty much abandoned Twin Peaks by the end of the second series, and only came back to direct the final episode. Also, I read a comment from one of the writers that during the second season they were often just making things up as they went along, which would explain the incoherence and loose ends in many of the later episodes. What made the first season and the beginning of the second one intriguing was the idea that there was a big, mysterious backstory to everything that was happening, and we only caught glimpses of it through dreams and visions. But when, during the second season, they started explaining it with all that Black and White Lodge mumbo jumbo, that's when I thought it got kinda stale. So maybe they should've just left supernatural stuff on the level of mystery and occasional vision, and focused more on the quirky soap opera, which I thought was the most enjoyable part of the second season.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 11:02 (sixteen years ago) link

What was wrong in felling love with Annie?

it distracted him/made him let his guard down, its a sign of "weakness", exposing vulnerabilities

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 16:18 (sixteen years ago) link

is the music from season 2 available anywhere? i don't think it ever got an official release, aside from "sycamore trees" on the FIRE WALK WITH ME sndtrk.

goth casual, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 18:43 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think so - I have the season 1 sdtk on CD. Unfortunately it does not include James' classic rendition of "You and I" complete with living room slapback-reverb.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 18:44 (sixteen years ago) link

So maybe they should've just left supernatural stuff on the level of mystery and occasional vision

if this were the case, then what purpose would it serve? i mean, you seem to be complaining about the supernatural stuff being too resistant to interpretation (or at least the moral universe interpretation you'd like to apply), yet your solution seems to be simply to make it more mysterious and irrelevant.

one of the many things i love about the finale is the totally black, hopeless, things-fall-apart nature of it. it's also gotta be the weirdest hour ever on american network tv.

goth casual, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 18:53 (sixteen years ago) link


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