US POLITICS SPRING 2011: Let's just call off this country.

yeah I noticed you alluded to that in yr last post k3vin; makes sense...

which part?

'oil prices going up eventually increases prices' - why would I disagree with that?

first of all, where are you getting 'eventually' from?

the fact that prices are sticky

'hey you've decided to live a lifestyle dependent on a single limited resource that's inevitably going to get more expensive over time, I guess capitalism doesn't work after all'

implication here is that ppl who rely on petroleum--those who have to drive great distances to work for example--get what they deserve in rapidly inflated gas prices, but that ignores the fact that higher oil prices necessitates higher food prices, which affects us all, whether we 'choose' to drive cars or use gas or not, and completely dismisses the main point re: oil prices going up bcz of scarcity due to finite resources vs. oil prices going up bcz rich ppl tryna get richer buying barrels to create a scarcity so as to increase the value of those barrels. That I imagine would piss ppl off.

when it comes down to it everything we buy (including cheap things people buy IN DA BIG CITY, including food) is underpriced because we don't incorporate externalities very well. whether or not the current price of oil is speculation, it's still closer to the *cost* of using oil and will help us adapt our economy to a more sustainable one in the long-term as a sustainable one involves making decisions based on the real costs of things. so yeah: shit will be expensive and we will consume less. sucks.

right on; that makes sense

basically it's better that we tax oil til the price = the 'cost' cause then we can do nice things w/ that tax money, ie counteract the shitty effects of our lifestyle on the planet, come up with ways that we don't need to use oil, etc.

but even if that price increase isn't taxes and we're handing that money to wall street/saudis, we're still better off when we have to adapt to a market w/ more realistic prices. in the long-term, whether or not this is speculation is pretty much irrelevant: gas will be very expensive*. chinese people are building burbs and malls too.

(*relative to its current price)

I don't disagree with anything you've said in yr last two posts, and I definitely appreciate the grave ecological position that the advent of the automobile has put us in, but just indiscriminately sneering at folks who rely on petroleum-based transportation rubs me the wrong way something fierce. Sorry for the jibes.

Are there any studies on whether domestic manufacturing jobs would rebound if the cost of shipping from around the world were to rise? Sorry if this has already been addressed.

Capitalism will ultimately fail because the core element upon which it is built, the profit margin, is a lie. In order to practice capitalism you must lie about the worth of whatever you are selling to make a profit. It requires you to miscommunicate with others in society, for your own benefit and to the detriment of others. With technology this lie is exponentially blown up and that's why we have this oil commodities stuff that's going on now.

What we have in America is free market capitalism for some and public welfare for others, and the roles are pretty much the opposite of what we are told. Deep down people WANT socialism and they WANT a communal society but we haven't evolved mentally and spiritually to the point where we are ready for it. So you end up with people wanting these things but only for themselves, as a one-way street. It's going to take a colossal world-wide paradigm shift in perception before we get past whatever systems we are currently using. The Golden Rule of Do Unto Others is going to have to take the place of He Who Has The Gold for every human on the planet.

man that post is like a beautiful handmade mailbox, and i'm like a teenager with a bat hanging out of his best friends' car...

I thought banaka was retired?

sweet heaven

*evolves mentally and spiritually*

Oil's actually doing a better job in the past 5 years (excepting the post Lehman hedge deleverage) than the past 30. Brent will be above $200 in latter 2013 (future flows coming onstream are known, and developing world demand has a lot of inertia), and there's still storage available for about $2/bbl/month. There's a carry trade in buying now and storing for when demand outpaces supply, which is exactly what futures markets are for.

Of course, those who want to save the world from climate change may prefer $500 or $1000 oil. That's coming, too, but mostly due to the U.S. dollar losing its reserve currency status over the coming decade.

For most ordinary ppl here, the extraordinary rise in health, longevity, leisure and consumption that has occurred over the last several hundred years is due to the dynamic innovation and productivity gains mostly due to capitalism and the rights and social welfare institutions due to democracy, and union and associative pressure. This false dischotomy of capitalism vs, is as outdated as teapartier's romance of the 18th century - okay, maybe 80 some odd years younger.

Finding out how to make that sustainable is the question, as it always has been only now the stakes are higher and the time window is smaller.

In order to practice capitalism you must lie about the worth of whatever you are selling to make a profit.

What? My labor, insight, expertise, time, ready availability of capital are worth nothing? If you want to make some argument about natural resources, riverine laws, airwaves belonging to the nation, fine, but please make sure that I'm paid something for doing productive work. Oh, and how do you price that? Name a more efficient way than the market? Does the market fail us in certain areas? Yes. Should we take collective steps to counter that? Sure.

excepting the post Lehman hedge deleverage

Godammit Lens!

For most ordinary ppl here, the extraordinary rise in health, longevity, leisure and consumption that has occurred over the last several hundred years is due to the dynamic innovation and productivity gains mostly due to capitalism and the rights and social welfare institutions due to democracy, and union and associative pressure.

Yeah I've heard this before, you forgot about education...

Sorry, botched my obscure joke. Should have read "Godammit Jens".

Yeah I've heard this before, you forgot about education...

Yeah and that was made available to ppl not spending the majority of their lives eking out an agricultural living how, exactly?

(I also forgot about including women in the workplace.)

yeah i'm agreeing with you (despite the neg connotations normally associated with 'heard it (all) before')

I am fully cognizent of the extraoridnary advances the USSR made economically in the 1930's, but I hardly think those were worth the pain nor truly sustainable and considering the very real need we have to address our hydrocarbon addiction, the degradation of our environment, our need for healthy food and clean water, and the enduring threat of population overload, I don't think we should just give up on the incomparable innovative dynamism of capitalism - nor do I think we should rely on it alone - I just wish everybody would stop wishing all the answers were in the past. I mean, all those Coolidge loving Koch Kool - supporters should remember the private/public aspect of major and transformative works in this country from the Erie canal to the railroads to the interstate highway system to name just transportation as a sector.

yeah I mean 'capitalism' serves as a generic boogeyman term for the 'hard left' in the same way that 'socialism' and 'liberal' serve as a generic boogeyman term for the right. great way to make vague, sweeping statements in online newspaper comment sections, not really a good way to actually talk about anything.

'capitalism' is an unchanging idea and tool in the same way that trigonometry is. we can use it differently but it's not 'changing' or going anywhere soon.

er - that 'socialism' and 'liberal' serve as generic boogeyman terms*

The masons can still suck my dick, though.

I'm okay with capitalism, it pays my salary, and many of my friends own small businesses. 'Boogeyman' capitalism, to me, comes from Walmart receiving $1B in government subsidies, or healthcare industry lobbyists subverting the desire of American people for healthcare reform, or pressuring to gut the EPA.

That is just corruption

right, I mean walmart getting subsidized by the government is about as un-'capitalistic' as you can get, which is why it makes more sense to call that corporate welfare/corporatism/corruption/whatever than to consider it the 'bad side of capitalism'

What? My labor, insight, expertise, time, ready availability of capital are worth nothing?

To respect each other's worth we need not rely on imaginary numbers stored on a computer somewhere.

If you want to make some argument about natural resources, riverine laws, airwaves belonging to the nation, fine, but please make sure that I'm paid something for doing productive work.

Here's some food, it belongs to the whole planet.

Oh, and how do you price that?

Money in the 2011 concept will not make it to the far future.

Name a more efficient way than the market?

There will still be a market as long as tangible & digital objects remain separated. Just because food is traded over money does not mean competition for better and more unique product will fail to exist. Pride in one and another's work can be a great mutual reward. A good way of doing business.

Does the market fail us in certain areas? Yes. Should we take collective steps to counter that? Sure.

We gotta work with what we have, and it's not hopeless in the present. Even if nothing changes the longer we make a stink about bugs in the system, the more it will be a presidential issue that gets serious attention.

Here's some food, it belongs to the whole planet.

Dude, even Australopithecus knew that that's bullshit. The food belongs to the guy with the biggest club.

Money in the 2011 concept will not make it to the far future.

Humanity in the 2011 concept is what's not going to make it to the far future, and I have my doubts about anything beyond 2111.

http://www.progarchives.com/progressive_rock_discography_covers/609/cover_155202292005.jpg

on a general level my issues with industrial capitalism are primarily that since it's large-scale implementation we have got 1) a century of massive, previously impossible levels of genocide, and 2) after we got the genocide over with, we just switched to wholesale destruction of our ecosystem. All accomplished in roughly 150 years! amazing. In return we got some neat digital gadgets and extended lifespans for a small minority of the population. way to go, industrial capitalism.

Don't forget complete oligarchic manipulation of the political process.

eh that's nothing new

LOL true, true

What?! Genocide predates industrialization! The Americas from 1492 or Africa from around the same period readily spring to mind.

killing millions of people in a single day, THAT was new

rendering the planet uninhabitable for our own species, also a completely new innovation

good morning, everyone!

Dude, even Australopithecus knew that that's bullshit. The food belongs to the guy with the biggest club.

Yeah, let's go ask how that worked out for him. Nevermind, the last of his kind died off 2 million years ago. Guess it's not a good long-term disposition.

genocide definitely predates the 20th century, no argument there. But the scale and time-range of mass murder was exponentially increased and compressed, respectively

xp

lol @ Alfred

Nevermind, the last of his kind died off 2 million years ago.

Worse, his descendants evolved into consultants.

Yeah, pay no attention to that tree-hugging ecosystem stuff. Just buy more gadgets (and give more tax breaks to the billionaire CEOs of the gadget factories.) It'll all work out fine.

http://jalcorn.net/weblog/uploads/flammable.gif

Or look like Obama, according to the GOP.

xpost

we generally didn't care about the ecosystem before the industrial revolution either - we just were much less efficient at tearing it up.

LOL. I loved her apology/non apology, alfred

Dan has anyone suggested that we do anything along those lines, here?