Since many people are already being killed, and maintaining our current level of military activity ensures that this killing will go on and on and on, then it is disingenuous to imply, as your question does, that only one of these choices entails "a bunch of people" being killed.
it's a question of scale. I think the number of people killed by pursuing Option A (NATO backing of rebels) is smaller than the number of people that would be killed under Option B (letting Q settle his own internal affairs). This is the issue.
― a man is only a guy (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 11 July 2011 20:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Is Q gonna get to live in the South of France!
TRIPOLI (Reuters) - France said Muammar Gaddafi was ready to leave power, according to emissaries, the latest sign contacts were underway between the Libyan leader and NATO members to find a way out of the crisis.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 July 2011 14:49 (thirteen years ago) link
As far as France as concerned he isn't technically part of the Libyan government anymore iirc
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 12 July 2011 15:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Technicalities.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 12 July 2011 15:05 (thirteen years ago) link
obviously Q leaving is a net positive. otoh I hate these amnesty-for-dictators deals in principle.
― a man is only a guy (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 12 July 2011 16:09 (thirteen years ago) link
Yeah, but how binding are they? Chile went back on Pinochet's. I guess you just say that the agreement was made under one government, when they left, and will be broken by another afterwards, who aren't restricted by the agreement. Plus the amnesty doesn't trump international law which allows anyone else to punish them if their nation is unable or unwilling. So you need to get them out of the country. Then Thatcher can let them go again.
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Tuesday, 12 July 2011 16:40 (thirteen years ago) link
happy 100th, air power!
http://counterpunch.org/patrick07252011.html
― you call it trollin' i call it steamrollin' (Dr Morbius), Monday, 25 July 2011 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link
(Reuters) - Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's camp has vowed to push on with its war against rebels whether or not NATO stops its bombing campaign,
Great.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 13:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Then there is this:
The assassination of Gen. Younis is a major challenge to the rebels – and to the strategy of the US and others who recognized the rebels as Libya's government and must stay the course.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2011/0802/Can-US-Libya-strategy-survive-the-assassination-of-rebels-top-general
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 14:48 (thirteen years ago) link
lol that's just him pushing the narrative that NATO had something to do with initiating the hostilities in the first place (it did not, btw)
― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 19:13 (thirteen years ago) link
?? has anyone ever thought that?
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 19:19 (thirteen years ago) link
Q's blamed the whole conflagration on "outside agitators" and "foreign elements" since day one
― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 19:20 (thirteen years ago) link
hmm yeah i don't think he meant NATO
― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 19:24 (thirteen years ago) link
O RLY
7/25: Late on Saturday Gaddafi said in an audio message on state television that the unrest that has swept his country since a popular uprising erupted in mid-February was a "colonial plot."
He did not elaborate.
He also denied accusations by international rights groups of a brutal suppression of dissent and allegations that his regime had killed thousands of protesters.
― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link
he blames whoever's handy
TS: bombing Gaddafi's dupes in Libya or bombing Assad's dupes in Syria
I've come to hate Sarkozy & Cameron for forcing this intervention on the rest of NATO. Its pretty clear that Obama wanted no part of it from the beginning.
― waxing gibbous (Sanpaku), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link
It's much better when the US are forcing their allies into wars of course. The US has done fairly little so far, too. But yes, of course, we should be supporting the rebels/people in Syria as well.
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link
It's amazing how much that Racky wants no part of, he gets.
Patrick Cockbun on the Younes killing and our 'freedom fighters':
http://counterpunch.org/patrick08012011.html
― satan club sandwich (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:07 (thirteen years ago) link
Syria, as we've discussed before, because of its involvement with Iran and Lebanon (and other issues), seems more complicated than Libya (although Libya has obviously been a more complicated situation than the Brits and the French once apparently thought it would be)
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:08 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post- I am always a bit skeptical of Cockburn's often out there views. Morbs, is anyone else saying this?
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link
The nature of the civil war in Libya has been persistently underplayed by foreign governments and media alike. The enthusiasm in some 30 foreign capitals to recognize the mysterious self-appointed group in Benghazi as the leaders of Libya is at this stage probably motivated primarily by expectations of commercial concessions and a carve-up of oilfields.
yeah, uh... I don't really buy this
― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link
is Patrick related to Alexander?
more probably motivated by a desperate need to give an ugly civil/tribal stalemate some degree of legitimacy.
― goole, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:14 (thirteen years ago) link
alexander, andrew and patrick cockburn, all brothers
andrew also father of olivia "wilde", importantly.
― goole, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Both of them go a little too far in an extreme simplistic way for me.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:17 (thirteen years ago) link
was gonna read that patrick cockburn piece but i was distracted by "The Forced Drugging of America's Children"
― max, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link
first the drugging, then the slavery
― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
The enthusiasm in some 30 foreign capitals to recognize the mysterious self-appointed group in Benghazi as the leaders of Libya is at this stage probably motivated primarily by expectations of commercial concessions and a carve-up of oilfields.
yeah we did all this really, didn't we? the energy companies were doing ok trading with gadaffi / who does cockburn recognizer as the leader(s) of libya? etc.
i think claud would be very disappointed in this though: is junior really complaining about a 'mysterious self-appointed group' running things? is he some kind of liberal democrat now?
but it is pretty clusterfucky over there. do 'get' why the clean-hands feeling of non-intervention / letting someone else intervene appeals.
― je suis marxiste – tendance richard (history mayne), Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.maynereport.com/templateimages/logo.gif
― zvookster, Tuesday, 2 August 2011 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
i see this after all yr posts now
oh, you
― goole, Wednesday, 3 August 2011 01:26 (thirteen years ago) link
Juan Cole does not agree with the Cockburns either:
But logically speaking there are only four likely outcomes.
1. Qaddafi wins and conquers the East
2. The Free Libya forces over time win and take Tripoli
3. Elites in Tripoli overthrow Qaddafi and seek a national unity government with Benghazi
4. The country is partitioned
The UN allies won’t allow Qaddafi to take the east and massacre and imprison thousands, however much Alexander Cockburn, the Tea Party, and the World Socialist Web site would like to see that happen, or at least they object to practical steps to prevent it.
― curmudgeon, Friday, 5 August 2011 13:46 (thirteen years ago) link
rebels claim Tripoli is surrounded, Qadhafi cut off
probably less than 100% true, I'm guessing
― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 15 August 2011 19:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Wow, this story making the rounds now, after recent stories re rebel dissension and in-fighting
― curmudgeon, Monday, 15 August 2011 19:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Helpful map:
http://www.twitpic.com/67nmsz
― polyphonic, Wednesday, 17 August 2011 22:34 (thirteen years ago) link
increasingly looking like Q's days are numbered, imho
we'll see
― that mellow wash of meh (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 19 August 2011 20:45 (thirteen years ago) link
http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2011/08/17/gaddafis-days-are-numbered/
― zvookster, Friday, 19 August 2011 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Reuters are reporting unverified information that the Presidential Guard has surrendered to rebels in Tripoli.
― goldie hawn (ShariVari), Sunday, 21 August 2011 20:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Everything seems to be happening all at once now...
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 21 August 2011 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
This war is finally starting to look like the rebels are forcing Qwudophy into his endgame, for which I am happy. Really, I am. The sooner hostilities can be over, the better off Libyans will be.
However, I do notice that NATO has given up any pretense whatsoever that it is only using force "to protect civilian lives", or whatever the formula was that Obama used to justify making war directly on Q's forces. They've been pretty skillful at allowing the rebel force not to look like a minor military appendage to NATO's air offensive, which was a political necessity, for western leaders as well as for the Libyan ones.
It will be interesting to see if the numbers of sorties and tonnage of bombs dropped ever make it into the news. I have a feeling they would be large numbers.
Final tidbit will be to see if Q gets to skip out with an Idi Amin deal, or comes to a Mussolini finish.
― Aimless, Sunday, 21 August 2011 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
Gaddaffi reported dead - https://twitter.com/#!/MalikAlAbdeh/status/105384291495723012
― James Mitchell, Sunday, 21 August 2011 21:42 (thirteen years ago) link
killed by a follow friday. how sad.
― Gukbe, Sunday, 21 August 2011 21:46 (thirteen years ago) link
also he's on the radio right now. assuming it's not recorded.
― Gukbe, Sunday, 21 August 2011 21:48 (thirteen years ago) link
CORRECTION: Source in #Tripoli who has been v. reliable got his wires crossed. A lot of confusion out there. #Gaddafi is ALIVE. Just about.
― James Mitchell, Sunday, 21 August 2011 21:58 (thirteen years ago) link
i mis-read the original tweet & thought it was 'and was shot by @FF', as if there's a guy out there with a twitter account being all, just shot gadaffi nbd.
meanwhile: Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim says 1,300 people have been killed in Tripoli since midday and 5,000 injured
i don't know whether in this regard 'government spokesman' totally disqualifies the subsequent text from being taken as fact but like i can't even imagine?
― sexual union prayerbook slam (schlump), Sunday, 21 August 2011 22:02 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah the general opinion seems to be that ibrahim is full of shit and not to be taken seriously.
― sonderangerbot, Sunday, 21 August 2011 22:17 (thirteen years ago) link
al jazeera has been showing the same short loop of excitable tripolites for 45 mins, which is now quite annoying -- except for the one guy in what looks like a deathmetal T-shirt, which i call on ILX to crowd-source identify
― LORD SUkRAT of that ilk (mark s), Sunday, 21 August 2011 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link
@Reuters: ICC PROSECUTOR'S SPOKESWOMAN HAS CONFIRMATION GADDAFI HAS BEEN DETAINED
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Sunday, 21 August 2011 23:00 (thirteen years ago) link
they already corrected that ed: it's his son not him
― LORD SUkRAT of that ilk (mark s), Sunday, 21 August 2011 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link
curses, social media fails again.
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Sunday, 21 August 2011 23:04 (thirteen years ago) link