Capital Punishment: Should the Death Penalty Still Exist In A 'Civilised Society'?

and I don't think psychopaths can really be 'held accountable'

death penalty is always wrong imho

― a man is only a guy (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, July 12, 2011 8:44 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark

I guess he was a psychopath. We played a lot of Dungeon & Dragons together. & kill the carrier, where he was an absolute beast. At dinner he'd eat a dozen hot dogs, or if we ordered pizza, a whole large pizza.

You know, I had a friend I played D&D with. He was a normal, seemingly-gentle soul. His family moved away to Virginia and when I ran into him like a year later, he had been through the juvenile system for stabbing a guy.

death penalty is always wrong imho

― a man is only a guy (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, July 12, 2011 8:44 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark

― Richard Nixon's Field of Warmth (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, July 29, 2011 6:47 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark

I still don't think it would be wrong, from a moral perspective, if applied to someone who deserved it. But the idea of someone innocent getting trapped in the web is too frightening. And the system itself is too cumbersome and expensive. And lastly, I sort of think that putting someone in prison for life punishes them for longer (obviously). : ) It's probably just better that way.

it's morally wrong because it is the state committing an act of vengeance, which should not be the role of the state.

i'm sure the church would be happy to step in

Even most churches are against capital punishment these days.

i'm very sorry euler, i'm sure it's a difficult situation

shakey otm. lol catholicism in my case

basically killing someone who poses no imminent threat to anyone else is barbaric imo and is unjustifiable

Nah, it's no biggie for me really, but it's really strange to remember this again: he was on death row since the mid 90s. & I hadn't had much contact with him since the early 90s.

Fuck Stroman. Also fuck tim mc veigh, who deserved to die.

Hell, my grandfather used to tell me that people who cheated at cards when he was growing up got shot. So no real sympathy here if some child rapist gets the gas.

you're an idiot.

otm

You both should get the gas

i don't see a problem with criminals getting their just deserts. criminal acts are freely chosen acts of pre-meditated evil, which is why there's no discernible pattern relating criminality to education, poverty, childhood socialization etc.

my great uncle was in a concentration camp so I have no real sympathy if a bill magill gets beaten mercilessly by a stranger with a baseball bat

criminal acts are freely chosen acts of pre-meditated evil, which is why there's no discernible pattern relating criminality to education, poverty, childhood socialization etc.

i think this is way OTT - there aren't people whose circumstances you hear and think, maybe it's slightly more likely that they would do this than i would? eg, the woman who worked as a prostitute and killed seven or eight guys, either in self-defence or not in self-defence. i'm not saying, 'sure kill some guys' so much as 'i can see how you got there'. 'freely chosen acts' of 'pre-meditated (???) evil' seems to lionise the fact that we technically 'choose' to do most things we do, irrespective of the causes. i don't think the lack of data on it being endemic to people of certain backstories makes sense of the people who do it.

nv was being sarcastic

thanks :) also i don't think i believe in "free will" but hey i've got no say in the matter

jeez i'm sorry i keep doing that on here it's really embarrassing

nah it's my bad

i always try to salvage some sense of having righteously stood up for the downtrodden against ridiculous + sarcastically lampooned allegations but it is no comfort, i have been a fool

i mean would it kill you to ;)

i was wondering tho, and shoot me down if i'm talking bollocks here, if one of the reasons the US retains the death penalty (or i assume the majority of states do anyway) is that the belief in an individual's control over their own destiny is such a central part of the idea of the USA? the same thinking that anybody can achieve anything if they work hard and persevere has as its shadow the belief that some murders are purely acts of personal volition and hence deserving of unrestrained retribution?

and i'm 99 percent certain that a quick examination of yr execution stats for any given year wd show a huge skew in the social class and educational achievement of the condemned ;)

not to get off topic but

( Mr. Bhuiyan was discharged the day after being treated; he was told he did not have health insurance. For the next several months, he slept on people’s couches and had to rely on physicians’ samples for medication, including painkillers and eye drops. He had several operations on his right eye; he now has only limited vision in it.)

jesus fucking christ get shot in the face then kicked out the next day

i was wondering tho... if one of the reasons the US retains the death penalty (or i assume the majority of states do anyway) is that the belief in an individual's control over their own destiny is such a central part of the idea of the USA

I can see that - and I like that idea - but on the other hand, it is the ultimate example of the state using its muscle against the individual.

think of it more of a casting out of Eden?

I think that it's more an issue of - when someone is murdered, there is nothing that can be done to bring them back. That's the end. A brother, a sister, a daughter, a mommy, a daddy, a friend. They're fucking gone and all the beautiful hope and potential that they could have had in life bleeds out in an instant - or over a long fucking period of time in some cases. And the pain of that murder branches out - it touches friends, family, a community where you can't even fucking feel safe anymore. "This guy was obliterated for no fucking reason. What if that happens to me? What if that happens to my dad?"

The idea that someone's social class and educational achievement should factor into the decision to punish someone for committing such a crime is sad and ludicrous. There is no level of social class or educational achievement that exists where someone wasn't told that murder is like, the worst transgression that you could ever commit.

that isn't my point. if murder, or criminality in general, is unrelated to those factors then we should expect the class etc. of murderers to be reasonably evenly distributed. it isn't. does that make it okay to commit murder if you're poor? i wouldn't say that. but if your upbringing impacts on the likelihood of your committing a crime then how can we attribute criminality to some internal badness that is untouched by external causes?

and then: do we want the state to try to reduce the amount of violent crime, or do we want the state to focus on punishing those who commit it?

but if your upbringing impacts on the likelihood of your committing a crime then how can we attribute criminality to some internal badness that is untouched by external causes?

I don't think we have to attribute it as such. I think the nature of the crime is sufficiently severe as to merit the most severe punishment available, regardless of excuses.

do we want the state to try to reduce the amount of violent crime, or do we want the state to focus on punishing those who commit it?

It should absolutely be both, and without a doubt, the American state (can't speak for the wider world) doesn't focus enough on preventing crime, both at a roots quality-of-life level or at a policing level.

when someone is executed, there is nothing that can be done to bring them back. That's the end. A brother, a sister, a daughter, a mommy, a daddy, a friend. They're fucking gone and all the beautiful hope and potential that they could have had in life bleeds out in an instant - or over a long fucking period of time in some cases. And the pain of that murder branches out - it touches friends, family, a community where you can't even fucking feel safe anymore. "This guy was obliterated for no fucking reason. What if that happens to me? What if that happens to my dad?"

or maybe the friends and family and dependents of the executed are complicit in their guilt somehow?

Well, yeah to your xpost. And that's why I made the decision to not support the death penalty any longer.

Although less about someone being executed at all than someone wrongfully being executed.

As far as the family/friends of a guilty person being executed goes, I would view them as his victims, not the state's.

i can't reconcile premeditated killing being regarded as the worst possible crime with premeditated killing being regarded as a prerogative of the state. the death penalty doesn't appear to deter, but it inevitably amplifies the violence it punishes - another set of victims, more lives blighted by killing. i think it sends a message that there is a point where killing is a legitimate solution to transgressions: but how citizens interpret transgression isn't likely to be identical to how the state interprets it. it tells citizens that vengeance is a noble instinct.

i think it sends a message that there is a point where killing is a legitimate solution to transgressions: but how citizens interpret transgression isn't likely to be identical to how the state interprets it.

This is an interesting thought. I'll think on it.

i shd be clear that my main opposition to capital punishment is based on repugnance at violence wherever it comes from, i guess. but i do have a secondary pragmatic objection in that it doesn't seem to be effective at preventing violent crime. i could argue that more effective policing might reduce the popularity of the death penalty because the probability of detection has more of a deterrent effect than the severity of punishment.

I can't ever side with the death penalty and its advocates. There are so many reasons why I am against it. From wrongly convicted to being more expensive than life imprisonment and the fact it doesn't deter other people from killing/stealing whatever...

my great uncle was in a concentration camp so I have no real sympathy if a bill magill gets beaten mercilessly by a stranger with a baseball bat

― iatee, Saturday, July 30, 2011 12:52 AM (21 hours ago) Bookmark

How sad it wasn't one of your direct ancestors so we wouldn't be subjected to your stupidity. Go fuck yourself.

can't wait for bill magill's sb

happy to contribute there

Same. Consider ingesting a chill pill, William!

I don't blame you Bill, but you might want to go for a walk...

my great uncle was in a concentration camp so I have no real sympathy if a bill magill gets beaten mercilessly by a stranger with a baseball bat

― iatee, Saturday, July 30, 2011 12:52 AM (21 hours ago) Bookmark

How sad it wasn't one of your direct ancestors so we wouldn't be subjected to your stupidity. Go fuck yourself.

― You're a notch, I'm a legend (Bill Magill), Saturday, July 30, 2011 10:47 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/duhflushtech/GIF%20Files/friday.gif

can you really support suggest banning if you don't support the death penalty, though