i think i understand the impulse to vengeance, but then i think i understand the impulse to murder. i feel like we shd try to legislate for our society to be better than we are as individual people.
― i'm sorry for whatever (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 31 July 2011 10:50 (thirteen years ago) link
see, I think we should legislate society so that the government is in charge of the serious jobs that individual citizens would almost certainly fuck up. obviously it doesn't work like this in reality, but that's how it should be, damn it.
― kkvgz, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:27 (thirteen years ago) link
and in turn that's understandable, of course, just.... not to an unrealistic/unrepresentative extent, maybe?
Should point out i'd gleefully hang the little shits bouncing on the beds in the next room
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:35 (thirteen years ago) link
xp to nv, that
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Darragh, bouncing on the bed is actually mad good exercise in a word where kids have increasingly fewer outlets for (particularly state-sanctioned) exercise.
― kkvgz, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:44 (thirteen years ago) link
murder cases where no real doubt exists
this is always an intriguing notion, are you suggesting there should be two verdicts: guilty and totally guilty?
― ledge, Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:56 (thirteen years ago) link
well yeah y'know
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 11:57 (thirteen years ago) link
Of greater concern is the possibility that broadcasting executions could have a numbing effect. Douglas A. Berman, a law professor, fears that people might come to equate human executions with putting pets to sleep. Yet this seems overstated. While public indifference might result over time, the initial broadcasts would undoubtedly get attention and stir debate.
This is wrong, I think. I wish I thought well enough of people in general to think that broadcasting executions would make them think "this is barbaric," but within minutes of each execution animated gifs of "funny" jerks and twitches would be getting play all around the web, and it would further desensitize an already terrifyingly desensitized population.
if you'll excuse me now I'm off to listen to some goregrind
― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 31 July 2011 12:50 (thirteen years ago) link
Lol
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:07 (thirteen years ago) link
maybe they'd see that y'know it's not such a bad way to go tbf?
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:10 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean the method isn't really the debate, or am i wrong there?
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:12 (thirteen years ago) link
What's the point of a form of vengeance where one party is no longer around afterwards to see how badly he's been pwned after the act of vengeance is done?
― Quantum of Pie (NickB), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:31 (thirteen years ago) link
Not really into the idea of the state taking vengeance btw, just saying capital punishment hasn't really been thought through from that POV.
― Quantum of Pie (NickB), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:33 (thirteen years ago) link
Capital punishment is pretty draconian. At one time, I opposed the death penalty on pure 'oh noes don't execute innocents' grounds, which are valid, but now have just grown to detest the entire practice. It serves no function except to convince American citizens that the government killed the "monster in the closet". It doesn't clear out overcrowded prisons significantly, so that argument doesn't really work.
The problem with it as a deterrent is that a basic psychological tenet is that punishment is most effective when doled out immediately and consistently. If we all knew that if, after killing someone in pre-meditated fashion, we were arrested, we would be executed, say, in two days time, regardless of circumstance, race, socioeconomic status, etc...we might think twice. And there are some people out there who quite (erroneously) say we should do things like this.
But, that cuts into the accused's civil rights, and we know way too many people have been exonerated from Death Row to say "oh, nobody is ever wrongfully convicted of murder" with a straight face.
Likewise, the death penalty is inconsistently handed out, and much more likely to be given to a minority of low socioeconomic status. This is one major reason it doesn't work as a deterrent.
I do have a major issue with the State deciding it has the right to determine when someone lives or dies. Like, I will never bat an eyelid when the military commits a tactical strike against someone (say, Bin Laden) in the name of battle. Or when the police incarcerate someone. But the State condemning someone to death is them intervening on moral, and not punitive grounds -- after all, if the subject is incarcerated, for life or not, he/she is removed from society and therefore unable to commit said crime again.
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:42 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm terrified that the state might execute the wrong person, so NO. Also I just think that flipping the switch corrupts people, it debases them. I think it debases a culture and a nation.
― Has a Dingy Ringer on Its Hootie Ha ha (Mount Cleaners), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:45 (thirteen years ago) link
so much so that the Pixies wrote a song about it
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:49 (thirteen years ago) link
but ya in all srsness, dudders to death penalty
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:50 (thirteen years ago) link
La La 'Lectrocute You? xp
― Quantum of Pie (NickB), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:53 (thirteen years ago) link
wouldve only made the album better imo
― shastakrautpasta (Drugs A. Money), Sunday, 31 July 2011 13:54 (thirteen years ago) link
vengeance isn't for the person receiving it, tbf nick
I'm against the death penalty for people who are innocent, fwiw.
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 14:39 (thirteen years ago) link
even pope innocent x?
― MY WEEDS STRONG BLUD.mp3 (nakhchivan), Sunday, 31 July 2011 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link
x? is an unrecognised emoticon
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 14:44 (thirteen years ago) link
"i'm pretty much down with vengeance as a motivator, i think? "
Where does it end then?
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Sunday, 31 July 2011 15:00 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm cool with the government doling out whatever punishments make them feel good
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 31 July 2011 15:05 (thirteen years ago) link
oh yeah, exactly.
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 15:09 (thirteen years ago) link
just govt after govt getting their kicks offing random citizens
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 15:12 (thirteen years ago) link
― MY WEEDS STRONG BLUD.mp3 (nakhchivan), Sunday, 31 July 2011 14:42 (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkx? is an unrecognised emoticon
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Sunday, 31 July 2011 14:44 (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
http://agaudi.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/300px-study_after_velazquezs_portrait_of_pope_innocent_x.jpg
pope innocent D:
― Sir Chips Keswick (Merdeyeux), Sunday, 31 July 2011 15:14 (thirteen years ago) link
Thread revive just in time for Guido Fawkes latest attempt to prove he's got a big cocktougher than the rest.
http://www.restorejustice.org.uk/
― a more annuated ilx user (Ned Trifle II), Sunday, 31 July 2011 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link
I imagine it's about whipping up Euroscepticism as much as it is reintroducing the death penalty.
― HIS BODY IS FAT BECAUSE HE HAVE BIG HEART (ShariVari), Sunday, 31 July 2011 19:49 (thirteen years ago) link
I imagine it's about whipping up Guido Fawkes profile as much as it is reintroducing the death penalty.
― a more annuated ilx user (Ned Trifle II), Sunday, 31 July 2011 20:02 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/04/death-penalty-e-petition-commons
The e-petitions goes live to-day so I imagine Staines will be working hard to get his 100,000 signatures in fast.
― Ned Trifle X, Thursday, 4 August 2011 07:48 (thirteen years ago) link
cool, thks for link
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Thursday, 4 August 2011 08:07 (thirteen years ago) link
No problem, I'm in favour of the debate. The Pro-death penalty lobby have had it their way too long.
― Ned Trifle X, Thursday, 4 August 2011 08:51 (thirteen years ago) link
LOL, I'm working at Amnesty International just now so I better follow the company line or else
― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Thursday, 4 August 2011 09:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Let the public decide, not many MP's killed, but many of the public are. YES 2 DEATH
― ledge, Thursday, 4 August 2011 09:01 (thirteen years ago) link
finally the voice of that one guy who stands up and somehow manages to correlate littering w/the absence of capital punishment on question time has been heard
― (oboe interlude) (schlump), Thursday, 4 August 2011 09:08 (thirteen years ago) link
How about in the case of child sexual abuse?
― kkvgz, Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:15 (thirteen years ago) link
well, at the very least you'd move them to another parish iirc
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:17 (thirteen years ago) link
Breaking news:* LATEST: Government's e-petitions website crashes under weight of calls for return of capital punishment. More details soon ...
Don't hurry to fix it guys plz
― Quantum of Pie (NickB), Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:25 (thirteen years ago) link
Perhaps not an unrelated story:
Public perception of crime higher despite falling figures, report saysSocial Trends report shows two-thirds of people think crime is on rise, while statistics reveal it is at lowest level for 30 yearshttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/04/public-perception-crime-higher
― Quantum of Pie (NickB), Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:32 (thirteen years ago) link
I've been watching that story for a few years now. The optimist in me finds it heartening, a breath of fresh air, a godblessed relief. The other side of me is fairly confident that the reason the stats are dropping is that they are being systematically juked.
― kkvgz, Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:37 (thirteen years ago) link
dara o'briain to thread
― CH3C(O)N(CH3)2 (darraghmac), Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:38 (thirteen years ago) link
for example, Baltimore rape statistics between 1995 and 2009.
― kkvgz, Thursday, 4 August 2011 12:39 (thirteen years ago) link
BREAKING NEWS 2009: Baltimore rape statistics at all time low
In other news 2009: Baltimore rake statistics at all time high
― Gary Numan, or Gary Fletcher (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:10 (thirteen years ago) link
LOL
― kkvgz, Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:11 (thirteen years ago) link
http://lilla.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Simpsons-rake-scene.png
― Dave Zuul (Phil D.), Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:22 (thirteen years ago) link
I'll tell ya about capital punishment though. Nothing makes me suffer more than when a state's capital is not the most populous or well-known city. Portland isn't the capital of Oregon, you say? What's up with that?
― kkvgz, Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:33 (thirteen years ago) link
Pretty much any way you look at it crime has fallen (in most categories) but people are never going to believe they weren't safer back in the (g)olden days. I'm sure I've mentioned this before but I've spoken to people at meetings in villages where the biggest crime was someone stealing a bicycle that one time and they were still convinced they were lucky to get through the day without being murdered (I am exaggerating only slightly). If they couldn't think of examples of crime from their neighbourhood they would mention things in the news from elsewhere as if it had happened locally to back up their overwhelming belief that it was all GTHiaH. I can only assume that they actually wanted to be scared.
― Ned Trifle X, Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:39 (thirteen years ago) link
Capital punishment? OK, it's a pretty crap station but how come Magic and Heart FM get off scot free?
― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:39 (thirteen years ago) link
The scottish aren't allowed to listen to Heart FM?
― Ned Trifle X, Thursday, 4 August 2011 13:44 (thirteen years ago) link