Capital Punishment: Should the Death Penalty Still Exist In A 'Civilised Society'?

the US doesn't execute children anymore fyi, or anyone who commits a capital offense before the age of 18

we will put em in jail for decades tho!

The US doesn't execute children - might execute people with the mental age of children though, as far as i can remember.

There are a few English-speaking countries in the Caribbean who use the death penalty.

i think capital punishment is more humane than life imprisonment -- i don't think this is the first time that opinion has been expressed on this thread (or maybe not even the first time i've expressed this opinion on this thread)

again, though, i'm not predicating my argument on wrongfully convicted or underage killers.

I may be unfairly limiting the terms if yr arguments are based on eg a large % of dubious executions or w/e. I've consistently said that's the #1 argument, for me, against dp

I just glanced at a map on wiki fwiw

Xp

yeah it's a fairly recent development, and of course it was up to the judiciary

no death penalty for under 18 - http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-633.ZS.html
also juveniles who commit a crime in which no one is killed may not be sent to prison for life - http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-7412.ZS.html

again, though, i'm not predicating my argument on wrongfully convicted or underage killers.

I may be unfairly limiting the terms if yr arguments are based on eg a large % of dubious executions or w/e. I've consistently said that's the #1 argument, for me, against dp

― 10/11 of a dead jesus (darraghmac), Friday, August 5, 2011 1:27 PM (2 minutes ago)

yeah and this is unavoidable, so if you're for the death penalty, you get this as a free bonus

awes

i think capital punishment is more humane than life imprisonment -- i don't think this is the first time that opinion has been expressed on this thread (or maybe not even the first time i've expressed this opinion on this thread)

― Mordy, Friday, August 5, 2011 1:27 PM (3 minutes ago)

we can argue over what is more humane - i'd probably disagree - but this strikes me as pretty paternalistic. i think killing someone who doesn't want to be killed - and poses no imminent danger to anyone else - is wrong.

i think capital punishment is more humane than life imprisonment

aside from the near-inevitable years of waiting on death row, and the almost certainly gruesome actual mechanism, yeah sure, since death = nothingness. but on that view capital punishment is more humane than a small cut on the finger so i don't really think there's much mileage in that view.

the supreme court has also barred executing the mentally handicapped fwiw - the practical issue is where on that spectrum a particular defendant lies

Yeah, I forgot we don't execute kids anymore. At least since 2005.

Many xps

xp i'm curious what makes that position paternalistic in your eyes. after all, the alternative is imprisoning for life ppl who don't want to be imprisoned for life, no?

ledge, i don't think you understand the position. capital punishment is not more humane because of the nothingness and therefore more humane than a cut on the finger. it's more humane because imprisoning someone for life is dehumanizing, horrific, and never-ending torment. if we're going to end someone's life, maybe we should be honest and do it for real. not lock them in some kind of existential state of nothingness.

broken record, but: once you've sorted through all the caveats (no kids, no mentally handicapped, ~circumstances~, etc), all you're left with is vengeance for the truly horrible which, again, is flimsy justification for an institutionalized practice. like, why even bother.

would you advocate the humane killing of office workers for the same reasons

that wasn't my point; i was saying you were being paternalistic, not the state - 99% of people in this position would rather have life in prison over death, so to say "actually, dying is probably best for you" is paternalistic

xp mords

mordy i tend to agree with that, but to me that argument serves not to justify the death penalty (wtf) but instead to demand a reassessment of how and why we imprison people in the first place

on some level, i don't even disagree with you. but that's not a vaild argument for the death penalty
xp

and yeah, kev otm---prison may be awful and dehumanizing, but i'd hazard most ppl in for life might say "well at least i'm still alive"

gbx, strip it down to that, if you're certain the person isn't going to kill again......then what? Walk free?

office workers haven't committed crimes that the state must respond to in order to maintain a semblance of civilization. xxp

xp to mordy: well in that case i'd probably disagree; i'm sure a lot could be said for cleaning up prisons and making them less hellish places to be, but given the choice i'd at least give incarceration a go. and then sure, ask me again after ten years.

Mordy's argument is basically why I am very, very, pro-life imprisonment, to be honest.

like if you gave lifers the option of euthanasia, i'm p sure most would be thanks but no thanks

yeah morfy but it's probably kinder tbf

also, in terms of crimes of the state the death penalty is a crime that happens once -- a single sin for retribution or justice or whatever to make up for the original sin against civilization and society. life in prison is a constant crime against humanity that continues indefinitely. i'm not going to speculate on what the majority of lifer prisoners think, tho i have read at least a few testimonials where ppl have said that they'd prefer death to eternal imprisonment. </anecdotal>

i'm obv sympathetic to the idea that ppl want to stay alive no matter what the circumstances and certainly there are numerous accounts of ppl surviving hellish things bc the will to live was so strong. but life imprisonment really is worse than death penalty in my eyes, which isn't to say that death penalty is somehow a good thing, just better than this other alternative. on a different note, i think most ppl would rather receive corporal punishment than imprisonment. like 39 lashings instead of 5 years of prison, w/out question.

i basically agree w/ this more or less: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/06/in-favor-of-flogging.html

strip it down to that, if you're certain the person isn't going to kill again......then what? Walk free?

― 10/11 of a dead jesus (darraghmac), Friday, August 5, 2011 12:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

if being certain that a person isn't going to kill again = ready and willing to be a non-violent productive member of society: yes.

i don't put a lot of stock in punishment for punishment's sake. let god sort em out.

(which, incidentally, is something i've always found curious about certain moralistic/religious advocates for the death penalty/heavy incarceration. if you're so certain that someone will get theirs in the afterlife, why not let them go free if they're no longer a danger to society? sleep easy knowing that they will bathe in a lake of fire etc)

well i would only be in favour of life imprisonment in cases where there is no hope of rehabilitation - as protection for society basically, not as deterrence or for any kind of retributive effect.

i think there are more options than 'prison or the lash'.

on a different note, i think most ppl would rather receive corporal punishment than imprisonment. like 39 lashings instead of 5 years of prison, w/out question.

― Mordy, Friday, August 5, 2011 12:46 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

fwiw i tend to agree with this, if somewhat hesitantly. don't have time to read the article because lunch is winding down, tho

we differ hugely but someday there'll be the pint of harp to talk it out

As an atheist, the god thing isn't workin for me,

overcomingbias.com = nutters

what we really need is another australia

Seems to me that being certain that a person isn't going to kill again is as naive as being certain that everyone on Death Row is guilty of the crime they were sentenced to death for.

on a different note, i think most ppl would rather receive corporal punishment than imprisonment. like 39 lashings instead of 5 years of prison, w/out question.

― Mordy, Friday, August 5, 2011 12:46 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

friend's dad, an irishman, was a polis in scotland, he used to offer offenders a doing in the back of the van or being taken to the station and booked, they always chose the doing. I think he did it because he was a cruel man and he didn't like paperwork.

he was a cruel man and he didn't like paperwork.

wicked despots i have known

xp not to mention the huge numbers of psychopaths in the prison system who are basically impervious (not the right word here but lol) to rehabilitation.

overcomingbias.com = nutters

the only interesting ppl are nutters.

that's as maybe but i wouldn't want them running the world.

tough break 4u

the ppl actually running the world are real-live sociopaths

ya but that's more of a problem with defining sociopath, or maybe even just recognising that it's a necessary trait at that level

friend's dad, an irishman, was a polis in scotland, he used to offer offenders a doing in the back of the van

that's hot.

but life imprisonment really is worse than death penalty in my eyes, which isn't to say that death penalty is somehow a good thing, just better than this other alternative

FWIW, I'm against the death penalty, but I'm also against life imprisonment. I think the European countries have the right idea - sentences should top out at around 20 years.

God, I've just been googling news stories on people who have been executed in America in the last 5 years or so. There have been very few where the details of the crime haven't just led to me saying "fuck it."

I need to clean my brain this weekend. Why are we fucking talking about this shit any way? Guh.

death penalty being more humane than life imprisonment: you are aware that people can commit suicide?

God, I've just been googling news stories on people who have been executed in America in the last 5 years or so. There have been very few where the details of the crime haven't just led to me saying "fuck it."

I need to clean my brain this weekend. Why are we fucking talking about this shit any way? Guh.

I'm not armed with the facts here but consider yr sources: horrible savages make good copy.

Also the narrative you are getting is the result of a trial and series of appeals during which nearly all information was controlled by the prosecution, which has an interest in making them sound as savage as possible. If you want to feel better, read through some of these stories, which read like some of the exact same narratives, but resulted in innocent people getting railroaded: http://www.innocenceproject.org/