Capital Punishment: Should the Death Penalty Still Exist In A 'Civilised Society'?

that's as maybe but i wouldn't want them running the world.

tough break 4u

the ppl actually running the world are real-live sociopaths

ya but that's more of a problem with defining sociopath, or maybe even just recognising that it's a necessary trait at that level

friend's dad, an irishman, was a polis in scotland, he used to offer offenders a doing in the back of the van

that's hot.

but life imprisonment really is worse than death penalty in my eyes, which isn't to say that death penalty is somehow a good thing, just better than this other alternative

FWIW, I'm against the death penalty, but I'm also against life imprisonment. I think the European countries have the right idea - sentences should top out at around 20 years.

God, I've just been googling news stories on people who have been executed in America in the last 5 years or so. There have been very few where the details of the crime haven't just led to me saying "fuck it."

I need to clean my brain this weekend. Why are we fucking talking about this shit any way? Guh.

death penalty being more humane than life imprisonment: you are aware that people can commit suicide?

God, I've just been googling news stories on people who have been executed in America in the last 5 years or so. There have been very few where the details of the crime haven't just led to me saying "fuck it."

I need to clean my brain this weekend. Why are we fucking talking about this shit any way? Guh.

I'm not armed with the facts here but consider yr sources: horrible savages make good copy.

Also the narrative you are getting is the result of a trial and series of appeals during which nearly all information was controlled by the prosecution, which has an interest in making them sound as savage as possible. If you want to feel better, read through some of these stories, which read like some of the exact same narratives, but resulted in innocent people getting railroaded: http://www.innocenceproject.org/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

from the restorejustice site:

In 1964 when hanging was abolished the murder rate was 6.3 per million, in 2010 it was 13.5 per million. If the “life-for-a-life” deterrent remained, thousands of lives would have been saved over the decades since 1964.

other notable events in 1964 that may have contributed to purported vast increase in murders:

* The Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland is dissolved.
* The Beatles vault to the #1 spot on the U.S. singles charts for the first time, with "I Want to Hold Your Hand", forever changing the way popular music sounds to Americans, also starting the British Invasion in America.
* Constantine II becomes King of Greece, upon the death of his father King Paul.
* Terence Conran opens the first Habitat store on London's Fulham Road.
* The Catholic Church condemns the female combined oral contraceptive pill.
* Judith Graham Pool publishes her discovery of cryoprecipitate, a substance that extends the lives of hemophiliacs around the world.
* Bob Dylan turns The Beatles on to cannabis for the first time
* The Labour Party wins the parliamentary elections in the United Kingdom, ending 13 years of Conservative Party rule.

In 1964 when hanging was abolished the murder rate was 6.3 per million, in 2010 it was 13.5 per million. If the “life-for-a-life” deterrent remained, thousands of lives would have been saved over the decades since 1964.

holy shit this kind of reasoning makes me kill 13.5M people per year

~want to~

no the figures speak for themselves, that's why in places with no deterrent like Texas or Florida the murder rate is a puny 55 per million or so

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

some telling statistics here on the deterrent effect

can't read that now, but isn't the argument that if you have a death penalty, killers are practically incentivized to kill witnesses/accomplishes/etc since after the first kill they basically have nothing to lose

i've heard that argument, yeah. i would also argue that a regularly used death penalty creates a social landscape that devalues life. but i think the main conclusion is that severity of punishment does not deter, for whatever reason. i think there's evidence that the probability of being caught and convicted of a crime has some bearing on deterrence, but it doesn't really matter what the reasons are for the disconnect: anybody who argues for the death penalty on grounds of deterrence has very little evidence to support them.

tell that to this guy

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100099693/as-britain-debates-the-death-penalty-again-studies-from-america-confirm-that-it-works/

why states with different policies on the death penalty have paradoxically differing murder rates is probably a pretty complex chicken-egg situation that depends on a lot of other factors other than the existence of the death penalty, to be fair.

xp

but yeah it's definitely not a deterrent, and even if it was it ~still wouldn't matter~

^^^this is the thing.

the 'utilitarian' argument for death penalty ("hey it works people, so") is still p gross imo

esp when one considers all the many other countries that DON'T have it and also have dramatically lower murder rates...hmmmmm is there something to be learned there? nah fuck it

xp agreed

i think deterrence arguments for the death penalty are pretty deplorable but i think it's useful to be able to offer counter-arguments to people who use them. i read some interesting stuff a while back which looked at the numbers of executions in the same state over a 30 year period and compared those stats to murder rates and the general condition of the economy. once again, there was little correlation between number of executions and murder rate.

once you admit that the causes of changes in the murder rate are complex and multiple then i think any argument that still wants to attribute murder to innate criminality is made in very bad faith.

but when i have these arguments with my dad, for example, it ends with him saying "i will believe in the death penalty whatever arguments you come up with, to be honest". cue shivery unpleasant feeling that i hate feeling about a loved one.

couple this with listening to various authority figures scoring their usual points off the riots in London and I feel like "criminality" is one of the most disgusting, dishonest, atavistic voodoo-words in the English language at the moment.

stuff like this always gives me a brief glimmer of hope for humanity

yep

The Death Penalty Should Not Still Exist In A 'Civilised Society'

this is so, so tragic.

injustices like these are an inextricable part of capital punishment as a policy and if you support the death penalty at all you agree to countenence cases like this

the parole board just denied his application for clemency

Don't execute Troy Davis

fucking disgusting country

This getting much coverage in the US? Not heard a word about it on BBC/Sky.

it's on my local news site, some others. dunno why it would be news for the BBC.

CNN has been constantly running pictures of the victim with candles in front of them and tearful statements from the victim's mother about how anyone who is against capital punishment for TD is more evil than Hitler, Pol Pot, and Bill Gates combined. *facepalm*

it's my nature to be understanding of victim's families who support the death penalty but the mother/daughter (who was like, 2 at the time) of the dead favoring execution because it will "give them peace" is testing me a bit

Not heard a word about it on BBC/Sky.

Black man being executed in Georgia? Hold the front page. Still time to email, not much else can we do.

Facebook link to point your friends to:

http://www.facebook.com/amnestyusa

my emotional investment in this case is like all-time high and i'm usually wary of media blow-up stuff

but this shit is happening today and the closer we get to it, i dunno. this guy seems more likely than not to be innocent, at least given the information i'm seeing, and it doesn't look like anyone's going to swoop in in spite of everything. i can't think of anything like this (outside of like harry potter book three) where everyone knows the wrong person is being punished except the people doing it.

and seriously, fuck the victim's daughter, fuck anyone who demands death in order to find "closure." that's already fucked up and wrong and sort of evil. it's incomprehensibly wrong when it reaches a point that she doesn't care if the accused did it or not. that's just bloodthirsty murder catharsis.

and it happened when she wasn't even two years old. she claims to have memories of her father even though he died before she was old enough for her brain to store memories. ASOGNSADLKFN'SDNF'ALSDNFA'S she is seriously talking about how her FAVORITE MEMORY is a family reunion and she actually says "last time we were all together." and she says she was a daddy's girl. YOU WERE A FUCKING BABY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKIaUN75EOs

can't understand anyone watching this and not thinking straight up evil

sorry you grew up without a dad that you assuredly don't remember, really shouldn't give you a free pass to kill an innocent man

seems like 'victim' is a key part of her identity, partly as cultivated by her mom. probably doesn't know anything else.

the world is a horrible place IMO.

watch the 'healing process' start for her when troy davis is dead. i'm sure she will be a-ok then.

I'm not going to get into criticizing murder victim's families, because who know how that fucks you up. Baby or not. No-one should executed. Full stop. Especially not a guy who might just be innocent.

yeah i don't think you have to consider how wrong & improperly founded her opinions are; just that they should not influence the policy because they're obviously going to be so emotionally influenced

Georgia State Parole Board are blocking emails from Amnesty International but you can send an email using the page linked to above

can't understand anyone watching this and not thinking straight up evil

seems like 'victim' is a key part of her identity, partly as cultivated by her mom. probably doesn't know anything else.

I wrote a long post in which I called you guys a lot of names, but I just erased it. Instead, I just want to say this.

OBVIOUSLY this guy shouldn't be executed. I've put in my calls to the Georgia Board of Pardons and the DA. But trashing the victim is some real low business.

yeah dudes i am as anti-execution as anyone on here but directing yr bile at anyone but the govt is nagl