Odyssey Dawn: a military operations in Libya thread.

i read a piece in the economist the other day which said that rebels in east libya had threatened to destroy oil pipelines if the_west *didn't* intervene, which is a nice twist on the war-for-oil meme.

no one in the US government leadership gives a tinker's ass about who asks for what.

"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime...."

What about when local people specifically ask for help from foreign states? Misleading to say it's the west choosing the how and when in this case.

Probably was a bit misleading there as my thoughts sort of drifted onto Syria and Iran &c which, while not irrelevant, is obv not quite what we're talking about. To the first bit of the question it is, to my mind, the distinction between when a people asks for protection from a brutal regime and when it asks for the regime to be overthrown. The former, not the latter, being okay to agree to. Obviously the distinction is not that clear cut which is why mission creep is even possible and it's also why I've gone back and forth on how I feel about this whole thing.

The legality of the war is arguable both ways. What seems fairly clear, however, is that the members of the Security Council that abstained could have nixed it if they wanted to and it's unlikely that they believed the intervention would be limited to a no-fly zone. Russia and China might have made a lot of noise about their misgivings after the fact but it looks like tacit approval in the absence of formal disapproval.

Ah OK, I see. It certainly is a case of mission creep, just one that seemed inevitable and, imo, right.

The basic reason Obama decided to aid this stems not from his desire to see the Arab spring more successful (though I think he'll be happy for Libyans and happy to see the last of Gadhafi) but to support NATO, led by France/Britain (and to a lesser extent, Italy) both of which have far more interest in the outcome than we do from regional, economic, and refugee/immigration aspects. I will not deny the populist and diversionary aspects of Cameron's and Sarkozy's decisions to display the remaining bits of power both countries still have but over all, I think they were right and while I deplore Obama's possibly illegal use of American weaponry, I, for one, refue to be one of those petulant, navel-gazing American narcissists who clamor for our allies to always help us but don't give a damn if they need help. This is more important than the Falklands and just as defensible as Suez (where we rightly messed with them).

Somewhat like our intervention in the Balkans was less about universals than the health of Europe and the future of NATO.

I find it hard to believe that anyone thought the 'mission' presented to the security council would be the end of it, including the UN. Is it a US thing? Certainly here the presentation was that the Libyan rebels had joined similar uprisings, they were stalling, losing, at risk of massacre, we help it succeed.

lol...just trust the generals, they know what's best

otm as long as we dont trust that rascal k3vin k

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/08/24/t1main.libya.reax.irpt.jpg

all I know is they are gonna need a whole lot more Miami Heat apparell for their army

Reminds me that the American Revolution might not have succeeded w/o European advisers, European money and the French navy.

don't forget the Mexican help as well

You mean New Spain?

Le pacte de famille

The thing is, we would've taken England over eventually, and the Windsors would've married into the Kennedys.

The Windseys? The Kennedors?

Btw, le pacte de famille sounds much better in American English:

The Bourbon family pact

family pack of bourbon, 12.99 at costco

Plus you get to invade Florida!

Frabce is regretting helping us now - they are like "meirde! now they insult us everyday ! what burly cocks!"

worth noting that there were indeed NATO/other "boots" on the ground, the CIA from the beginning of the evacuation of non-libyans, and the SAS:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0307/Britain-s-SAS-in-Libya-What-happened-there/What-is-the-SAS

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/23/sas-troopers-help-coordinate-rebels

France is understood to have deployed special forces in Libya and Qatari and Jordanian special forces are believed to have also played a role.

lol...just trust the generals, they know what's best

― karen d. foreskin (k3vin k.), Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:43 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otm as long as we dont trust that rascal k3vin k

― funky house septics (D-40), Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:06 PM (3 hours ago)

lol what's the point of authorizing military action at home, or even being honest when voting on a UN mission (just a no-fly zone!)? everything worked out fine, we knew it would anyway, always does, except for the times it doesn't

fuckin liberals

Dude, there are CIA all over the place all the time!

^^^

Cia in my rectum

rectum? cia damn near killed um.

ha, the ol' rectum comedic line...

NY Times on upcoming international conference and plans for a new constitution and election

The international conference on Sept. 1, which is expected to include more than 30 countries, with China, Russia and Brazil also invited, will be guided by the new Libyan leadership, Mr. Sarkozy said. Mr. Jibril said that Sept. 1 was especially important for Libyans, "because it was on Sept. 1 that Qaddafi came to power 40 years ago.”

Mr. Jibril promised an inclusive, just Libya and laid out a procedure for a new government that would begin with an assembly of Libyans from all major cities, towns and regions to elect a group to draft a new constitution and name a transitional government. A draft constitution will be put to a referendum by Libyans, and new elections overseen by United Nations observers will take place within four months for a new parliament and a new government to replace the transitional one, Mr. Jibril said.

The international conference on Sept. 1, which is expected to include more than 30 countries, with China, Russia and Brazil also invited, will be guided by the new Libyan leadership, Mr. Sarkozy said. Mr. Jibril said that Sept. 1 was especially important for Libyans, "because it was on Sept. 1 that Qaddafi came into my rectum 40 years ago.”

god bless you, Hanle y

in realted news did you read that story about how the North Koreans miss their "beloved leader" and how they "pine for him" and have "endless meloncholia" about him being away? what an f-ed up country. Its as if Kim Jon Il is in ALL of their rectums

I missed that.

Below are various right-wingers on Libya (not all in agreement): we should have used American might and done it quicker; nah we should not have gone in at all; now they're going to have Islamic fundamentalist shariah governing no matter what they say about freedom and liberty; why hasn't Obama announced a post-revolution plan for Libya; Obama gets a B says one

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/aug/25/obama-libya-fox-news

found in Gadhafi's lair: 1 photo album filled with pictures of Condoleezza Rice

http://blogues.cyberpresse.ca/hetu/files/2011/08/pb-110825-condi-moammar-da-03.photoblog900-420x279.jpg

I like to think it was found under Gadhafi's mattress

that's actually Qaddafi in last year's Halloween costume, guys.

#tinyrevolution
Watching Libya on TV. Haven't been this excited about a war ending since the Northern Alliance took Kabul on November 13, 2001!

I think Morbs and Oliver North are almost in agreement!:

North agreed that the whole thing was yet another case of "irrational exuberance". He didn't think it was a bad thing to see the back of Gaddafi, but we still don't know where the fallen dictator is (though he's clearly not running Libya any longer), and he is pretty sure that there are months of chaos ahead and that it may well become a "Somalia with oil, with tribal warlords and, of course, piracy".

figured Morbz would be into pirates, tbh

i like to think the photo album said "nubian goddess" on the spine

piracy on the Mediterranean, seems a little unlikely

somalia with oil, huh? wonder how many helicopters and navy seals we could squander there.

COndolezza will please ya

Geeenwald on how Obamahawks are sounding ludicrously 'Mission Accomplished' this week:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/08/24/obama/index.html

I urge everyone to read this brief though amazing compilation of U.S. media commentary from 2003 after U.S. forces entered Baghdad: in which The Liberal Media lavished Bush with intense praise for vanquishing Saddam, complained that Democrats were not giving the President the credit he deserved, and demanded that all those loser-war-opponents shamefully confess their error. Sound familiar?

lazy, innacurate comparison. stopped reading.

all Islamic dictators and countries are the same, apparently

Comparisons to Somalia are really crazy/uninformed.