Taking Sides: Atheism vs. Christianity

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"THen wat r u getting at with me A Nairn"

I'm getting at that you are trying to reason out the existance of God and the truths of Christiany. You are human. Your reason is not perfect. Only God can make some one a Christian. They cannot make themselves a Christian.

John 7:17 (I don't think that's the correct listing for that verse) is important because that is the only relevant (on a spiritual level) action a man can take.

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:34 (twenty years ago) link

I didn't mean to be a dick by telling you that. But by writing how you do, it's hard to not think that you're a moron.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:36 (twenty years ago) link

Then why do you have this site A. its all for debating which is using words and anytime you teach its using words. Therefore as Christians we should not tell others becuase we cannot change people.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:40 (twenty years ago) link

oops the only reason i typed like that is because im used to the abbriviated words of AIM.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:41 (twenty years ago) link

The fact is A. that in order to plant a seed you must teach and tell them about Jesus then pray and let it be in Gods hands.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:42 (twenty years ago) link

reason is an atheists best weapon

faith is a christians best weapon

that cannot be proved rationally

luckily the two are not mutually exclusive otherwise all christians would be monstrous madmen

rather than just some

im afraid to say cs lewis is wrong more times than he is right

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 22:44 (twenty years ago) link

"its all for debating which is using words and anytime you teach its using words. Therefore as Christians we should not tell others becuase we cannot change people."

No that's not true either. A person who just recently became a Christian can gain a lot from intellectually thinking about Christianity.

And Yes, it is a debate, not an attempt at evangalising. Evangalising is very good, but it should be the type where you say "look at this I can proove God exisits" it should be more along the lines of "look at yourself you may want to become Chrisitan"

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:45 (twenty years ago) link

Brooks not only are you not "planting the seed," you're turning people off. Did you read the very interesting link questioning the historical existence of Jesus?

Also, I already answered your question about the "you must pick one of these four" but you ignored my refutation. Please point me to the chapter and verse where Jesus says "I am God." I think you'll find the following quotations, attributed to Jesus, are as close as he comes: "You yourself have said it"; "no man comes to the father but by me"; "in my father's house there are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you"; and a few others along these lines. many great gurus, among whose numbers Jesus can comfortably be counted, say similar things all the time. and plenty of people are willing to die for such gurus. was heaven's gate on-the-money since those people were willing to sacrifice so much? how 'bout Jonestown? jeez man. here you are reppin' the world's most dangerous cult and you won't even bring your a-game.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:45 (twenty years ago) link

"shouldn't" for the first quote above

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:46 (twenty years ago) link

"Brooks not only are you not "planting the seed," you're turning people off."

OTM

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:47 (twenty years ago) link

agree with a.nairn - b.robinson tell us some of the benefits of being a christian*

*your answer must not include the word 'heaven'

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 22:48 (twenty years ago) link

Jumping the gap from relying on reason to relying on faith. Is too hard for man to do. That's something God has to do to them.

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:50 (twenty years ago) link

Or any synonym thereof.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:51 (twenty years ago) link

Taking Sides: Potatoes vs. Potatoes

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:52 (twenty years ago) link

That's my last post for a while I'll check back on this thread later to see if any other stimulating posts pop up. until then, have fun.

― A Nairn (moretap), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:52 (twenty years ago) link

I want someone on this thread to prove that God doesn't exist.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:54 (twenty years ago) link

robin williams

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 22:55 (twenty years ago) link

Haha! But why would God even care about the existence of Robin Williams? I would surmise that part of the beauty of being omnipotent is the ability to categorically tune out obnoxious twits.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:57 (twenty years ago) link

Just asking tallis have you read the Bible.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:58 (twenty years ago) link

there are many times he claimed to be God indirectly he didnt flat out come out and say i am God worship me but everytime the pharisees ask him something and he gives the answer i am the son of God you'll notice a good portion of the time the crowd picks up stones to stone him or the pharisees say hes commiting blasephmy. Take john8:58 for instance

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago) link

if He exists that is

well im sure He could he could spend all his time listening to kylie albums, but still he'd probably feel a bit bad. 'jeez, i didnt know he was gonna win an oscar, look i create, you guys care-take, that's how it works'

x-post to dan

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago) link

Dan - Ned can't tune-out Calum.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:03 (twenty years ago) link

Mystic.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:07 (twenty years ago) link

yes, Brooks. I used to be a very active Christian. I've read the Bible in English, and much of the Pentateuch (that's the first five books of the Bible) in Hebrew, and parts of the New Testament in Greek and in the Vulgate (the "Church Latin" version, without which there probably wouldn't even be any Bible for anybody to read today). I had a sort of anti-conversion in which I realized that Jesus wasn't God. Now please tell me where is the Scripture where Jesus says "Dominus sum," or "Theos eimi," or "Ani HaShem."

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

incidentally Ani HaShem was one of the most respected singer-songwriters of the B.C.E.

rimshot

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:09 (twenty years ago) link

what about the ressurection thomas

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:10 (twenty years ago) link

my Hebrew teacher, in college (NB I was still a Christian at the time he said this): "Most people agree that the disciples probably stole the body." either way, the whole "nobody has ever risen from the dead before!" argument falls apart if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:17 (twenty years ago) link

Thomas read isaiah 9

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

john 14:9 says "Dont you know me, Philip, even after i have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

John 5:16 also has him claiming to be equal with God

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:24 (twenty years ago) link

He also says he has the ability to forgive sins in Mark 2:5-7

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

This is liek that thing when you're nine, right - "my dad's bigger than your dad!" only this is "my knowledge of biblical scripture is better than yours".

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

Well hell if it's in a book! An 'ancient' book at that!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

i dont care if he knows more about the Bible then me im just simply pointing out something

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

Dont you know me, Philip, even after i have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

so brooks as far as you're concerned there's only one way of reading this, right? Jesus himself came from a tradition of rich, multi-leveled readings of scripture. I can say to you, also, "anyone who has seen me has seen the father" and not be lying: to know God, you must know your fellow man, etc etc etc

look just abandon Christianity, you'll be much happier & God won't mind a bit

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

also, ANYBODY has the ability to forgive sins - Jesus says this to the Pharisees

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:32 (twenty years ago) link

also, there's a strong possibility that he never even existed

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

Also, Alizee.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

or you can take it the way he ment by saying since you have seen me you have seen God since well hes God also read John 1:1 that whole thing about the word and even Genisis even mentions stuff about the trinity.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:34 (twenty years ago) link

Brooks are you 17/18 years old?

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:36 (twenty years ago) link

but Brooks you don't know how he meant it! again, he came from a long, long tradition of very creative, very interesting discourse! he also told people that they were temples - did he mean that we should attend church in other people's bodies? Jesus LOVED to speak in parables, and you know it! how come when he says the part you don't want to be a parable, YOU get to determine that "that's when he wasn't speaking in parable"? John 1:1 wasn't spoken or written by Jesus and isn't germane to this discussion. Also, we likes to floss, all our teeth are gloss, we represent the dirty dirty dirty dirty south.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:38 (twenty years ago) link

Jesus also explained the parables did he not

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

(anyone reminded of lee & herrings' jesus sketch, 'aaaahh'
'no not aahh' 'aaahh' 'no shush')

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:43 (twenty years ago) link

well, it depends on who you ask. many biblical scholars agree that the explanations of parables are things added by later editors. of course, many fundamentals believe that every word in the bible has been there all along, or that any changes were "divinely inspired," i.e., every time something gets added & it sticks, that was because God wanted it that way. certainly, if the explanations of the parables were added later by people who believed Jesus was God, it'd be in their best interest not to add explanations of the "no man comes to the Father but by me" parable.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:44 (twenty years ago) link

strongly recommend some of these: http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/publish.html

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:46 (twenty years ago) link

i pretty much agree with everything you've written thomas

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

You know we can go through this all day the fact is though that we have yet to prove it false and we have copies like the dead sea scrolls and texts written in Greek that say well the same thing. since we can translate Greek and all

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:48 (twenty years ago) link

Go to bed.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:48 (twenty years ago) link

it cant be that late where he is

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:50 (twenty years ago) link

Brooks, are you wanting to actually engage with Thomas's interpretation and discussion or not? I don't think you are, and as an onlooker I think it makes this interaction a bit boring.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:51 (twenty years ago) link

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