Capital Punishment: Should the Death Penalty Still Exist In A 'Civilised Society'?

Someone from Amnesty UK has just been talking about this on BBC News.

yeah i don't think you have to consider how wrong & improperly founded her opinions are; just that they should not influence the policy because they're obviously going to be so emotionally influenced

^^^^

Candle-lit vigil for Troy Davis, from 10pm, Wednesday 21 September, Embassy of the United States, 24 Grosvenor Square, London W1A 2LQ

yeah dudes i am as anti-execution as anyone on here but directing yr bile at anyone but the govt is nagl

― forced to change display name (gbx), Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:43 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

why? her opinion could potentially have a much stronger impact on anyone in control of this guy's fate than the hundreds of thousands of petition signatures and she doesn't seem to be remotely open to the possibility that she is advocating for the death of the wrong man. she is clearly stretching her own personal story (seriously, she was a BABY) in order to win points in the argument against troy davis. she has power in this situation, she could be extremely instrumental in trying to earn more time to find the truth rather than let another innocent person die, and she isn't having any of it. being a victim does not mean she gets a free pass to aid in the killing of a very-possibly-innocent person. and yeah, by going on television and crying her mascara off and making up shit is definitely her trying her damnedest to help the execution happen.

stfu

yeah

I think you are projecting something fierce to say that she is "stretching her own personal story" and "making up shit" and you should stfu.

I may or may not remember anything that happened when I was two (and, at best, those memories would just be blurs and colors). For her to claim some kind of strong "daddy's girl" bond with her father is bullshit. I know she grieves, and I know she's probably felt like there was something big missing from her life over the years, but for her to put some kind of false sense of "closure" ahead of legitimate questions about this man's conviction and death sentence is fucking gross.

hate to talk shit about the family of a murder victim, and don't feel exactly the same way as zach or w/e, but that video is fucking terrible holy shit

xp if you want to ignore that part you can, you're still left with the fact that she basically admits that she doesn't care if the guy is guilty or not, just that he should be executed in order for her to reach closure. that is not forgivable imo and the fact that people would give someone that much leeway is frightening

not inclined to blame anyone who lost their father at that young an age for their feelings about it, sorry guys.

fault lies entirely with the state

like, people who are victimized are prone to be irrational about their victimization, this is completely predictable behavior. the fault lies with a legal system that allows this behavior to be used as the basis for judgment and execution.

the underlying logic of most legal systems is fairness/impartiality, but the death penalty basically negates this by providing an outlet for revenge (there is no other rationale for the death penalty, btw), which is an intrinsically biased/irrational/partial motive.

i hope i made it clear in my post that i don't hate the family for what they've said, and i don't endorse really any of what zach is saying itt - there's a lack of empathy and understanding there contrary to the way i feel. that said, i don't necessarily agree that any statement or feeling of a victim's family member - especially decades later - is absolutely beyond reproach

The emotions of a victim's family member should not be taken into account in terms of determining whether a person is guilty or not.

I think it's really important to recognize though, that even "decades later", victims of violent crimes are damaged. They are damaged for life! The pain they feel may ebb, but this is something that changes the very core of who you are.

exactly

xp i agree, i'm not saying the legal system shouldn't be blamed. i just don't think that she is off the hook for her actions -- playing a shitty game within a shitty system is still shitty. i just don't see her as someone who should be primarily defined as "victim." her father was the victim; she was an infant too young to realize what happened. i wouldn't grant similar leniency to someone whose parent died in childbirth. it doesn't give anyone the right to seek to ensure someone else dies.

but on the other hand, yes, i do understand where she could be coming from in her experience, though i don't want to play armchair psychologist. and yes, i agree more with your point shakey than i did with mine. it's still fucked up and scary that she's doing it though, and that she seems to be doing it very clear-headedly and, as it looks to me, strategically.

and i don't mean to trivialize violent crime. but millions of children grow up without parents, many because of death. and i don't think those children are any less victimized.

*non-violent death

i just don't see her as someone who should be primarily defined as "victim." her father was the victim; she was an infant too young to realize what happened.

Right here. It's this characterization that I disagree with. I don't know that just because someone is 2 means that they can't have a strong bond with their parent and that they wouldn't experience serious, life-long trauma if that person was murdered.

yes, of course. but that trauma can come from non-violent death too, and imo there is a point where trauma cannot be used to excuse behavior that endangers someone else's life.

You're crediting her with way more power and minimizing the role of the actual mechanism by which people of uncertain guilt are put to death, which, seeing as how we are indeed talking about a trauma victim here, is seriously nagl.

*way too much power

The justice system isn't looking at her or concerned about her. She's essentially a bystander and cnn's using her as a newsworthy personality or whatever.

xp and i'm willing to rescind my rants about her memory -- understanding that even if it's probably factually false the mind can have a way of filling things in the way it wants. and she probably spent her entire life with the belief that troy davis murdered her father. so yes, it is the justice system that is fucked, but i still cannot in good conscience watch that interview and give her a free pass. she is still a functioning adult with the ability to reason, and the doubt surrounding davis's conviction has been present for a long enough time -- i have trouble believing that she has not been made just as aware of the facts of the case (7/9 witnesses changing their story) as we all are.

why wouldn't the justice system be concerned with her? if we are to believe the justice system might, in some way, be concerned with the opinions of a bunch of protesters who have no personal stake in the case, why would her personal testimony not ring much louder? that's naive -- the media is a major part of the fucked up system.

if we are to believe the justice system might, in some way, be concerned with the opinions of a bunch of protesters who have no personal stake in the case,

I don't think they are.

i don't think anyone believes that you get to tell her how to feel about her murdered father.

Everyone agrees that her opinion shouldn't matter to those with the responsibility for the decisions here.

i haven't watched the clip so maybe she's horrible or w/e, but yeah: if she suddenly said "hey wait don't do it" it's not like the state would go "oh shit for real? ok, pack it up everyone, she said no"

what's gross is how the govt
a) uses ppl like her to prop up the institution of capital punishment even though as rustic said, the emotions of a victim's family should have zero bearing on the legal system and
b) actually kills people for crimes

the media is complicit in all this ("hear this woman cry for justice!!"), and no doubt victims' families are glad for the attention, but if capital punishment was simply dismantled, none of this would even be an issue

davis' crime was against the people of the state of georgia btw, so in a sense they should xxp

if we are to believe the justice system might, in some way, be concerned with the opinions of a bunch of protesters who have no personal stake in the case, why would her personal testimony not ring much louder?

dude, there's a major difference here

which is: when ppl protest someone's execution, they are not appealing to the judiciary or the courts or even the lawmakers---they are pleading with the one person who can grant clemency by fiat.

right (or in GA's case, the pardons board - its governor cannot commute a death sentence)

when someone is saying that an already convicted and sentenced person should, yes, go and die, they aren't appealing to anyone, the deed is done.

i dunno what anyone else was trying to say, but the whole "victim's families should stay out of the legal system" is more to do with sentencing---no judge should ever look at a grieving widow/father/etc, who is begging for the death penalty, and have his or her decision to kill someone made because boy are those people upset and don't they deserve a little more from the judicial system, a little extra

xp - ah, didn't know that.

like, people who are victimized are prone to be irrational about their victimization, this is completely predictable behavior. the fault lies with a legal system that allows this behavior to be used as the basis for judgment and execution.

― I saw Mike Love walk by a computer once (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, September 21, 2011 1:33 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fwiw that was my point -- this girl grew up with this, with a grieving mom, and i don't really blame her for her admittedly disturbing attitudes about it. the point is that her attitudes should not impact sentencing.

anyway this guy is going to die in two hours.

he was twenty years old when the murder happened. 20

guilty beyond a rsnable race it look like fuk dis

MaxBlumenthal Max Blumenthal
BREAKING: Stay of execution for #TroyDavis. Cheering outside death row.
1 minute ago

woah

gl usa

SalmanRushdie Salman Rushdie
OMG now they say no stay
33 seconds ago

?????????

shakes repeatedly otm upthread btw

salman rushdie using 'omg'
?????????????????????????

Who could stay this? The Justice Dept? I thought the governor of GA had no power to overrule the board of blah and blah.

scotus?

PrisonReformMvt PrisonReformMovement
We have a temporary reprieve for #TroyDavis from SCOTUS
58 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

JesseRodriguez Jesse Rodriguez
by chrislhayes
NBC's Pete Williams: Supreme Court official says the court has not yet taken action on the request for a stay in the Troy Davis case
3 minutes ago

smh twitter

whoever the scotus justice is who oversees whatever circuit GA is in

http://www.scotusblog.com/2011/09/plea-to-delay-davis-execution/