― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 12 June 2004 10:31 (twenty years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 12 June 2004 10:33 (twenty years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 12 June 2004 10:37 (twenty years ago) link
Many of the anti-hipster attitudes I come across (read here or in media or whatever) are a 'defensive' march on the offensive - you know, get in the insult at a group you reckon is sneering at you first, regardless of the truth of the matter. Many people who are attracted to subcultures have felt rejected by mainstream culture/'normals' first and then see the social patterns in a particular scene mirror those they see as conformist already, then decide to reject the group forcefully rather than be shunned twice. It's kind of like the difference between being the dumper and the dumpee.
― suzy (suzy), Saturday, 12 June 2004 10:52 (twenty years ago) link
yes but as you rightly pointed out image is very important (whether it should be or not) wrt to people making snap judgements, fundamental in fact - so if their taste doesn't seem to match yours at first glance then you may entertain the possibility that you and this person might not be able to relate that well. of course Mark and other people's vitiriol seems way OTT when it's put that way...
Suzy otm regarding a fear that it's the anti-hipster being sneered at first, or that it's a pre-emptive strike based on insecurity about their own inadequacies which may be focussed on when confronting people who are different (perfectly understandable)
― stevem (blueski), Saturday, 12 June 2004 11:16 (twenty years ago) link
what are you talking about, some of us also have to play guitar
http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/hitchhiketorhome/crosseyed_john.jpg
― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 12 June 2004 11:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 12 June 2004 12:11 (twenty years ago) link
also, why do people move to inner city areas if they get upset by people coming to give their patronage to the entertainment areas? not like they weren't there before they moved in....
― Gem, Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:01 (twenty years ago) link
I love New Yorkers. They spice up the place. They talk loudly on cell phones about humorous uptight problems. They lack self-consciousness. They dress better than most of the people here. They look out of place.
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:08 (twenty years ago) link
This whole thread is about snobbery, fitting in or not. To club at a snobbish club, you gotta dress to fit in. If you're snobbish about the snobs, you're gonna have a lousy time and wonder why you're there. Turning your nose up at the velvet rope - ironic, really.
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:24 (twenty years ago) link
I reckon it's worth patrolling the line between dandyism and hipsterism, 'cos Gareth's arguments seem kinda closer to a celebration of the former, more and more, and I think dandyism is actually precisely the same drive as hating from the other direction. Y'know, making yourself an outsider and posing it as a quest for some pure self or something. I reckon Mark and Kate could sit with Dickon and pour venom on 'vacous hipster cokeheads' all day...
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:26 (twenty years ago) link
Warning, this question may be outrageously stupid. but, is it possible to read the new answers to a thread without actually loading the entire thread?
― gem (trisk), Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:33 (twenty years ago) link
We're Night-Clubbing.
― Everybodydance, Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:38 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:40 (twenty years ago) link
Bah x-post.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:42 (twenty years ago) link
― gem (trisk), Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 June 2004 13:46 (twenty years ago) link
I think you've got that quite wrong. At least, that hasn't been my experience. It's not fear of being "dumped" or shunned, it's the awful sickening realisation that your newfound friends within the subculture are as conformist, cliqueish and narrow-minded as the oxo-culture you rejected in the first place. It's not fear of being shunned, it's "Holy, shit, we really don't have the same values at all, just the same haircuts."
it's that anybody can look good, attractive, sharp, in the "right" clothes and haircut;
Now that's just not true. It's a bit Rikki Lake of you to assume that anyone can look good with a makeover. But it just doesn't work that way.
or, why are people suspicious of 'image'?
I wrote several long paragraphs on that back there, and I can only assume that you didn't read them from the fact that you didn't comment on anything I said.
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 15:37 (twenty years ago) link
― charltonlido (gareth), Saturday, 12 June 2004 15:41 (twenty years ago) link
Hipsterism is about setting or being close to the crest of a trend. Dandyism is a flagrant and willful denial that trends even exist.
x-post...
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 15:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 15:49 (twenty years ago) link
My friends are a subset of Set B. Some used to be A. Some are B on Tuesday.
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago) link
This is completely, totally, absolutely OTM and goes back to my point about "Fuck the cover; read what's actually in the book."
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:13 (twenty years ago) link
Somebody please photoshop dog latin's face into this picture.
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:22 (twenty years ago) link
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:32 (twenty years ago) link
So in the hipster-hating world view, if you try to anticipate the crest of a trend, you're suspicious. But if you give it up and just go "oxo-culture", you're narrow-minded. But if you go Dandy, you're flamboyant (read: gay) - so what choices are left?
When I was younger, my friends and I dressed the same and I chose friends based more or less on whether they looked cool to me. I'm glad I grew up. This gets too confining. There are such great conversationalists with poor fashion sense. You miss out on too much if you're concerned about whether you and your friends look "right".
Some days I dress like a hipster, some days I don't. I suppose if a hipster-hater saw me one day, they'd make assumptions about who I am that they wouldn't make if they saw me the next day. Really it just has to do with which of my clothes are in the laundry.
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:36 (twenty years ago) link
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:38 (twenty years ago) link
(Thanks for calling me Greg btw! I am hoping that people will magically catch on to this without me having to aid the process in any way).
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:43 (twenty years ago) link
Of course a Dandy can be a woman, don't be so narrow minded and sexist! Words mean what we say they mean, not what the Victorians who dreamed them up thought they meant!
Different people dress provocatively or flamboyantly or as Display for many different reasons. I'm interested in the reasons, not in what they wear.
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:15 (twenty years ago) link
The problem with a truly egalitarian world view is that everyone you want to insult is perfectly justified in insulting you back. I may have to become a fascist; then I can verbally crush people underneath my bootheels without being a hypocrite. (Yes, I'm rambling now.)
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:30 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:41 (twenty years ago) link
But this makes no sense! It's just some theoretical situation whereby one hipster hangs out with only those similar to himself/herself, or something. Like hipsterism begats empty hipsterism or something.
Also this "Fuck the cover; read what's actually in the book." stuff just is further cliché in this sort of argument. What if one is interested in the cover? Where does the human cover end and the person begin? There is no exact science.
I just hate this sense of GROUNDING about the "fuck the cover" attitude. The sense of attempting to pull some people back to a certain level.
― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:43 (twenty years ago) link
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Possibly Kate Again (kate), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 18:58 (twenty years ago) link
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 19:19 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 19:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago) link
I was just asking! Trying to catch up on your lingo. I've not heard it used this way until now.
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 21:53 (twenty years ago) link
This is IT. I didn't think I liked dancing or dance music at all until I went to a rave. Obviously drugs had a help in that, but I feel that going to raves in the UK is a much nicer experience than going to a club. This is basically down to the fact there's a lot less surface and a lot more feeling. People wear their shitest gear to go raving and yet their best clobber to go clubbing. I feel uncomfortable in clubs because I'm constantly worried about the image I'm giving off. I get that thing where you think everyone's looking at you and judging you by your clothes and the way you walk and how much gel is in your hair. You certainly don't get this at a rave because no-one gives a flying fuckslash what you're wearing. Just so long as you're a decent, friendly person. I tried to explain this to a girlfriend who had never been raving before and was pretty much anti drugs. The only argument she came up with was "but the music's shit and it's full of hippies". That's about the time I realised we weren't meant to be.
― dog latin (dog latin), Saturday, 12 June 2004 21:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Maria D., Saturday, 12 June 2004 22:08 (twenty years ago) link