Taking Sides: Atheism vs. Christianity

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robin williams

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 22:55 (twenty years ago) link

Haha! But why would God even care about the existence of Robin Williams? I would surmise that part of the beauty of being omnipotent is the ability to categorically tune out obnoxious twits.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:57 (twenty years ago) link

Just asking tallis have you read the Bible.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 22:58 (twenty years ago) link

there are many times he claimed to be God indirectly he didnt flat out come out and say i am God worship me but everytime the pharisees ask him something and he gives the answer i am the son of God you'll notice a good portion of the time the crowd picks up stones to stone him or the pharisees say hes commiting blasephmy. Take john8:58 for instance

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago) link

if He exists that is

well im sure He could he could spend all his time listening to kylie albums, but still he'd probably feel a bit bad. 'jeez, i didnt know he was gonna win an oscar, look i create, you guys care-take, that's how it works'

x-post to dan

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:02 (twenty years ago) link

Dan - Ned can't tune-out Calum.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:03 (twenty years ago) link

Mystic.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:07 (twenty years ago) link

yes, Brooks. I used to be a very active Christian. I've read the Bible in English, and much of the Pentateuch (that's the first five books of the Bible) in Hebrew, and parts of the New Testament in Greek and in the Vulgate (the "Church Latin" version, without which there probably wouldn't even be any Bible for anybody to read today). I had a sort of anti-conversion in which I realized that Jesus wasn't God. Now please tell me where is the Scripture where Jesus says "Dominus sum," or "Theos eimi," or "Ani HaShem."

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:08 (twenty years ago) link

incidentally Ani HaShem was one of the most respected singer-songwriters of the B.C.E.

rimshot

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:09 (twenty years ago) link

what about the ressurection thomas

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:10 (twenty years ago) link

my Hebrew teacher, in college (NB I was still a Christian at the time he said this): "Most people agree that the disciples probably stole the body." either way, the whole "nobody has ever risen from the dead before!" argument falls apart if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:17 (twenty years ago) link

Thomas read isaiah 9

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

john 14:9 says "Dont you know me, Philip, even after i have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:22 (twenty years ago) link

John 5:16 also has him claiming to be equal with God

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:24 (twenty years ago) link

He also says he has the ability to forgive sins in Mark 2:5-7

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

This is liek that thing when you're nine, right - "my dad's bigger than your dad!" only this is "my knowledge of biblical scripture is better than yours".

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

Well hell if it's in a book! An 'ancient' book at that!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

i dont care if he knows more about the Bible then me im just simply pointing out something

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:28 (twenty years ago) link

Dont you know me, Philip, even after i have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

so brooks as far as you're concerned there's only one way of reading this, right? Jesus himself came from a tradition of rich, multi-leveled readings of scripture. I can say to you, also, "anyone who has seen me has seen the father" and not be lying: to know God, you must know your fellow man, etc etc etc

look just abandon Christianity, you'll be much happier & God won't mind a bit

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:31 (twenty years ago) link

also, ANYBODY has the ability to forgive sins - Jesus says this to the Pharisees

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:32 (twenty years ago) link

also, there's a strong possibility that he never even existed

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

Also, Alizee.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:33 (twenty years ago) link

or you can take it the way he ment by saying since you have seen me you have seen God since well hes God also read John 1:1 that whole thing about the word and even Genisis even mentions stuff about the trinity.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:34 (twenty years ago) link

Brooks are you 17/18 years old?

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:36 (twenty years ago) link

but Brooks you don't know how he meant it! again, he came from a long, long tradition of very creative, very interesting discourse! he also told people that they were temples - did he mean that we should attend church in other people's bodies? Jesus LOVED to speak in parables, and you know it! how come when he says the part you don't want to be a parable, YOU get to determine that "that's when he wasn't speaking in parable"? John 1:1 wasn't spoken or written by Jesus and isn't germane to this discussion. Also, we likes to floss, all our teeth are gloss, we represent the dirty dirty dirty dirty south.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:38 (twenty years ago) link

Jesus also explained the parables did he not

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:41 (twenty years ago) link

(anyone reminded of lee & herrings' jesus sketch, 'aaaahh'
'no not aahh' 'aaahh' 'no shush')

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:43 (twenty years ago) link

well, it depends on who you ask. many biblical scholars agree that the explanations of parables are things added by later editors. of course, many fundamentals believe that every word in the bible has been there all along, or that any changes were "divinely inspired," i.e., every time something gets added & it sticks, that was because God wanted it that way. certainly, if the explanations of the parables were added later by people who believed Jesus was God, it'd be in their best interest not to add explanations of the "no man comes to the Father but by me" parable.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:44 (twenty years ago) link

strongly recommend some of these: http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/publish.html

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:46 (twenty years ago) link

i pretty much agree with everything you've written thomas

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

You know we can go through this all day the fact is though that we have yet to prove it false and we have copies like the dead sea scrolls and texts written in Greek that say well the same thing. since we can translate Greek and all

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:48 (twenty years ago) link

Go to bed.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:48 (twenty years ago) link

it cant be that late where he is

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:50 (twenty years ago) link

Brooks, are you wanting to actually engage with Thomas's interpretation and discussion or not? I don't think you are, and as an onlooker I think it makes this interaction a bit boring.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:51 (twenty years ago) link

Greek texts you say? Well I'm convinced.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:53 (twenty years ago) link

damn straight

― pete s, Friday, 23 January 2004 23:55 (twenty years ago) link

18000 have been found all containg the new testiment. If there was a problem do to interpretation dont you think someone would have found it.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:55 (twenty years ago) link

Brooks, I actually can read Greek - not bragging, just a fact. the scrolls don't support the Gospels, though there are fundie books that like to pick and choose a few things to shore up their case. but the most important thing here for you to remember is:

we have yet to prove it false

Very important rule to remember: you can't prove a negative. No-one can, ever. The burden is on you to prove that Jesus 1) existed in the first place and 2) was God. The burden is not on others to "prove it false," because you can't ever prove anything false - reason just doesn't work that way. And the "God, lunatic, liar or prophet" thing has already been dismissed, so you'll need a different affirmative defense. The best one I know, and the one that actually works in converting people is this: "I love Jesus, and my love for Him has changed me in ways that have made me very happy." That stuff's contagious. I'll still think you're full of hot air, but somebody else might bite. The God/lunatic/liar thing though - that dog don't hunt.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:55 (twenty years ago) link

Im not trying to convert God converts.

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:58 (twenty years ago) link

dont you think someone would have found it

Many have! Please see that link I offered. You just choose to ignore them, because they'd force you to ask yourself some hard questions about the meaning of your experiences.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 23 January 2004 23:59 (twenty years ago) link

Im not trying to convert God converts

Does God tell you to argue dishonestly? You're trying to hang your hat on a semantic point here. You're trying to convince, all right, in the hopes that people will seek conversion. And you know very well that that's exactly what I meant. Honestly. Do you really think God approves of people ducking the crux of an argument in favor of the detrita? I don't.

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:01 (twenty years ago) link

actually as i hinted above the 'proof he was god' is irrelevant because you're not going to find that in a manuscript. however to discover some more sources on the ressurection would make a difference. many christians disagree on the nature of jesus' divinity/mortality. but fewer dispute the ressurection, because that means so much. i hesitate to call it the central plank, but it's virtually that.

x-post

― pete s, Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:01 (twenty years ago) link

Didnt you say earlier that you cant prove something false Thomas so how on your logic [prove Jesus isnt God

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:04 (twenty years ago) link

Oh for god's sake.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:05 (twenty years ago) link

Prove that he never existed you guys sit here and disregard my evidence i DARE ALL OF YOU TO ASK SINCERLY FOR GOD TO REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOUyou will get your answer

― Brooks Robinson (B. Robinson), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:06 (twenty years ago) link

it doesn't! but you can disprove an affirmation; you say "here is the case," I offer evidence to the contrary. YOU set out to prove that Jesus is God. I point out that your proof is full of holes. Have you studied logic at all? You don't begin by saying "no-one can prove that such and such isn't true, therefore I believe it" - otherwise, you'll eventually believe anything!

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:06 (twenty years ago) link

I've still not had an orgasm.

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:07 (twenty years ago) link

Oh for god's sake.

BEST POST EVER

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:07 (twenty years ago) link

Nick you're not 'trying' now are you!

― pete s, Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:08 (twenty years ago) link

How can you tell?

― Llahtuos Kcin (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:09 (twenty years ago) link

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