i think its just a p human need to explain things through clear narratives, the attraction of the anecdotal and personal. i dont think the idea that people shape systems rather than being shaped by them is unique to the libertarian right i guess?
like obv the idea that the elite is simply better - more virtuous, harder working, more intelligent - is a v old conservative idea. but the left has it myths about the elite as well, i think, that are just as rooted in psychodrama. i guess my big overarching problem with this books is that its attempting to bolster a number of myths about the poor and the economy are that deeply harmful to society and the will perpetuate destructive and immoral policies. also the idea that the only reason rich people should help poor ppl - by doing them the great favor of watching nascar and eating kfc - is so that the gov't doesnt have to provide unemployment benefits
― Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:47 (twelve years ago) link
reminds me of someone I knew in college. I remember her telling me she had to drop out because her father went to jail and she needed to support her mom and younger brother. I thought, "wow ... I guess I have it pretty lucky."
maybe it's not in some of these peoples' frame of reference that there are factors that are beyond peoples' controls that limit their ability to acquire material wealth and financial stability. and since their voices are the loudest in democracy, it's their views that drive policy.
― Spectrum, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:47 (twelve years ago) link
well, not in democracy, but our current government.
― Spectrum, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:48 (twelve years ago) link
like obv the idea that the elite is simply better - more virtuous, harder working, more intelligent - is a v old conservative idea
I think the prob comes in w/ the fuzzy zone in between - there are examples of people who are in the elite because they were virtuous, harder working and intelligent and so it's pretty easy to find anecdotal evidence for either side of the argument (dubya vs. obama pretty much)
― iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:52 (twelve years ago) link
Laurel is on to something here
― mh, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:55 (twelve years ago) link
Wonder if it's our culture driving this narrative. Individualism and the old idea that having a good life is a sign of being chosen by god. Wealth is virtuous because it's a sign that god favors them or some other bullcrap idea.
Individualism in that we each have an individual choice to make something of ourselves, and if we don't do it, then the blame is solely on us... and probably makes it harder to understand other peoples' circumstances. It's a really weird mixture of ideas that put the self above others, and make it seem that social obligations or help is morally wrong, or aren't even on the radar.
― Spectrum, Saturday, 4 February 2012 22:03 (twelve years ago) link
the old idea that having a good life is a sign of being chosen by god
"prosperity gospel" has been a pretty big part of modern protestantism, especially evangelicism
― mh, Saturday, 4 February 2012 22:05 (twelve years ago) link
Well they've made all the right choices and should be rich & successful but since they aren't, it must be the other people who didn't choose as well, rigging the system to drag them down.
truly. this idea that the system could only ever be rigged to help the undeserving poor, rather than the undeserving rich.
― lukas, Sunday, 5 February 2012 01:39 (twelve years ago) link
Yah, I see it as primarily a resentment narrative that validates an otherwise "inexplicable" lack of singular success.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 5 February 2012 02:05 (twelve years ago) link
all the libertarians I know are poor as fuck, idgi
Wow, this is really far from my experience.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 February 2012 02:50 (twelve years ago) link
The few I've known have all been highly intelligent upper-middle-class students.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 February 2012 02:59 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/study-income-inequality-may-boost-your-ego/2012/02/03/gIQAvcWpnQ_blog.html
A new study finds that countries with more income inequality tend to have more people who believe that they are better than average — a psychological phenomenon known as “self-enhancement.”
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Sunday, 5 February 2012 12:52 (twelve years ago) link
The lame NPR interview with Charles Murray never brought up the points mentioned here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/06/charles-murray-book-review.html
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 15:02 (twelve years ago) link
haha i would give quite a lot to be able to interview c.murray
frum's review gets at the big obvious points but doesnt really go far enough in pointing out how contradictory and pernicious murray's argument is.
― BJ O (Lamp), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:27 (twelve years ago) link
i would give a lot for you to be able to interview charles murray, too!
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:30 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/grads-sue-brooklyn-law-school-charging-school-fudged-employment-stats-article-1.1018685?localLinksEnabled=false
could happen w/ a lot of for-profit schools in the future
― iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:16 (twelve years ago) link
Could happen? It happens with EVERY for-profit school. And probably every "non-profit" private school.
― elan, Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:43 (twelve years ago) link
Or do you mean getting sued? Hopefully that's the case – it will probably raise demand for young lawyers ;)
― elan, Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:44 (twelve years ago) link
yeah I meant lawsuits
― iatee, Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:45 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nacba.org/Legislative/StudentLoanDebt.aspx
I think ppl really underrate how big a thing this is gonna be
― iatee, Friday, 10 February 2012 00:46 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2012/02/intern_xuedan_wang_sues_harper_s_bazaar_why_don_t_more_unpaid_interns_protest_.html
― iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 16:40 (twelve years ago) link
http://mathbabe.org/2012/02/17/how-harvard-is-failing-its-students/
― s.clover, Friday, 17 February 2012 16:42 (twelve years ago) link
Harvard fails its students in a lot of ways. Teaching students to be "professional test takers" is only, to my mind, like 1% of the problem. (But a good response, nevertheless).
― "renegade" gnome (remy bean), Friday, 17 February 2012 16:45 (twelve years ago) link
A different angle on Harvard's shortcomings:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-16/harvard-liberal-arts-failure-is-wall-street-gain-commentary-by-ezra-klein.html
― o. nate, Friday, 17 February 2012 16:46 (twelve years ago) link
as someone who 'went hard' on his college applications i p much agree with most of the things in those articles
― 99x (Lamp), Friday, 17 February 2012 16:50 (twelve years ago) link
Klein is wrong, though, when he asserts
For many kids, college represents an end goal. Once you get into a good college, you’ve made it, and everyone stops worrying about you. You’re encouraged to take classes in subjects like English literature and history and political science, all of which are fine and interesting, but none of which leave you with marketable skills.
as the fault/problem of the colleges. As iatee and others have said elsewhere, it's more a problem that employers do not value this catholicism and awareness and the breadth of character this can create.
― "renegade" gnome (remy bean), Friday, 17 February 2012 16:54 (twelve years ago) link
haha well its true that most hiring processes are relentlessly shitty and backwards
― 99x (Lamp), Friday, 17 February 2012 17:02 (twelve years ago) link
I think Klein's main point though is that colleges aren't doing a very good job of helping you to envision what you could do with those skills post-college. Maybe those are the right skills to teach, but they could still be doing more to try and pave the way to a post-college career.
― o. nate, Friday, 17 February 2012 17:03 (twelve years ago) link
I've said this before but I don't think 'a ton of ivy league ppl go into finance' is actually a big problem. wall st itself is obv a problem, but I'm not convinced that the american economy is really losing that many potential nobel scientists / facebook creators etc. if 30% of princeton's class goes into finance. it's really not that many people and I don't think the difference between the schools that get this type of recruiting and the schools that don't is that huge. (there are a lot more vassars out there than dartmouths.)
the process is interesting and revealing of certain aspects of the job market, prestige, etc. - like it's an interesting thing from a sociological pov but I'm skeptical of 'this is a real problem', considering how few people this really affects.
― iatee, Friday, 17 February 2012 17:13 (twelve years ago) link
I think Klein maybe underestimates the sociological explanation. Leaving the college bubble is kind of scary, and it's a big reassurance to follow the herd. From an Ivy school, you're pretty much guaranteed that a good chunk of your classmates will end up in NYC. The finance industry is the biggest industry in NYC. So it's not too surprising lots of recent grads end up in finance.
― o. nate, Friday, 17 February 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/wall-street-and-the-ivy-league-readers-respond/2011/08/25/gIQATmmXMR_blog.html
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 12:27 (twelve years ago) link
I have worked on Wall Street for 25 years, and it is clear to me that college students who major in economics or business degrees often do so because they have no other passionate interests in topics such as history, literature, math or science. Economics and business are the “default” majors if you don’t have significant passion in other subject matters. For such kids lucky enough to attend elite colleges, the high cost of attending (think student loans) can be mitigated by high earning potential of working in consulting or Wall Street. In virtually no other industries can you be completely mediocre and earn a king’s ransom in pay.
::pets my liberal arts degree on the head::
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 12:28 (twelve years ago) link
elite college have some of the best financial aid in the country + 'the highest cost of attending' isn't limited to them
― iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 14:43 (twelve years ago) link
ie that guy still prob thinks about the world as 'ivy league schools are the expensive schools' and when he was young there was more truth to that
― iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 14:48 (twelve years ago) link
they're still expensive - there's a zone between like, 150k and idk 300k where students are still getting 'financial aid' in the form of maybe a few thousand a year. and then it depends on how willing your family is to shoulder the burden. or if your family is gonna be all AMERICAN VALUES and tell you once you're over 18, all your loans are your responsibility (until they die and then you get the inheritance)
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 15:01 (twelve years ago) link
oh yeah even public schools are 'way too expensive', but the student body at these schools is pretty skewed compared to the 'average college' so the narrative of 'things are so expensive, this is the only way they cope' doesn't make that much sense to me
http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/nov/11/avg-student-loan-debt-shrinking-at-yale/
The study placed Yale’s average student loan debt for the class of 2010 at $9,254 — roughly $15,000 below the national average — and Storlazzi said the class of 2011 graduated with an average debt of $9,000, partly due to Yale’s generous financial aid policy.
(I know their financial aid was less generous when you were there fwiw)
― iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 15:06 (twelve years ago) link
well that only counts the loans that are given as part of your fin. aid package - that doesn't take into account the expected family contribution, which your family may or may not contribute. if your family doesn't, then you take out private loans
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 15:08 (twelve years ago) link
The Project on Student Debt report found that 28 percent of Yale students in the class of 2010 graduated with some form of loan debt — 18 percent graduating with federal debt and 10 percent with non-federal debt. The study also found that 11 percent of the class of 2010 received federal Pell Grants, which do not have to be repaid.
the 10% w/ no-federal debt is probably more representative of students who do graduate with private loans
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 15:09 (twelve years ago) link
I mean I think that 'do this to pay my loans' narrative can be true for certain people for sure. otoh j is tutoring one of these kids in french. a roth$child. that girl isn't going into finance to pay off her loans.
overall there are lots of reasons to take jobs that pay lots of money in nyc, idt it's a mystery. if the jobs were being tossed at people at rutgers, 30% of the rutgers student body would go into finance.
― iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 15:10 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/20/opinion/what-college-students-need-to-know.html
― iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 15:34 (twelve years ago) link
sometimes i wonder if 'what happens to harvard grads?' is maybe slight less important or indicative than the new york times thinks it is
― 99x (Lamp), Monday, 20 February 2012 18:36 (twelve years ago) link
the nyt is staffed by harvard grads so naturally it's very important to them
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 18:37 (twelve years ago) link
the 7k undergrads at harvard are the best and the brightest people in america and each one we lose to wall st is negative 100 billion dollars to the american economy, cause each and every one would have invented a new facebook
― iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 18:40 (twelve years ago) link
actually that's 150 billion dollars, not 100 billion
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 18:42 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/map_of_the_week/2012/02/student_loan_debt_an_interactive_map.html
― iatee, Friday, 24 February 2012 18:11 (twelve years ago) link
"Our oldest and most prestigious colleges are losing touch with the spirit in which they were founded. To the stringent Protestants who founded Harvard, Yale and Princeton, the mark of salvation was not high self-esteem but humbling awareness of one’s lowliness in the eyes of God. With such awareness came the recognition that those whom God favors are granted grace not for any worthiness of their own, but by God’s unmerited mercy — as a gift to be converted into working and living on behalf of others. That lesson should always be part of the curriculum."
clearly. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/09/opinion/colleges-and-elitism.html
― s.clover, Friday, 9 March 2012 15:58 (twelve years ago) link
yeah santorum et al don't think about rich snobby people at harvard (which is more democratic / less snobby than it's ever been in history) they care about the fact that bio professors at ohio state don't allow term papers on creationism.
― iatee, Friday, 9 March 2012 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
xp
I think it's a good lesson, whatever the origin. Substitute "luck of being born wealthy" for "God's unmerited mercy" if it makes you feel less queasy.
― elan, Friday, 9 March 2012 17:34 (twelve years ago) link
Exactly what part of that spirit of holiness, grace, and giving was responsible for the anti-semitic quota system at the ivies through the 1960s?
― s.clover, Friday, 9 March 2012 20:01 (twelve years ago) link
I think they would prob say it fell under 'grace'
― iatee, Friday, 9 March 2012 20:04 (twelve years ago) link