White trick-or-treaters in blackface: C/D?

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it seems like every insult either suggests that sex (usually gay sex) is unpleasant or insults the person's mother. that's why I settle for "eat shit." scatmunchers can deal with the aspersion. I should probably be embarassed that I've thought about this.

miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Out of curiosity (and not to pull some "aha! hypocrite!" bullshit), does cross-dressing deserve a similarly hardline inexcusability? or is sexual identity different enough from racial identity (with transgenderism and all) to make it permissable? there's definitely an offensive theatrical history in regards to women.
-- miccio (anthonyisrigh...), November 1st, 2005.

It depends how you're defining "cross-dressing". This is a HUGE subject, and needs its own thread, if it doesn't already have one.

I know I'm probably stating the obvious, but dressing in women's clothing because it fulfills some inner need or because it feels right are very different than dressing up in women's clothes to set out to mock women. For the most part, I'd say that people of either sex dressing in a manner that subverts traditional gender-roles serves to challenge patriachy, rather than to reaffirm it.

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

actually, white heterosexuals, like black homosexuals, have the constitutional right, barring some limited circumstances, to say any word they please.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

As for "go choke on cock" - you say that like its a bad thing...

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

err..x-post

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:27 (eighteen years ago) link

and ken...you look HOT in a shower curtain.

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I wrote a whole paper on this once -- I think drag is fairly problematic, esp. drag of the Dame Edna/Mrs. Doubtfire/Aunt Blabby/Sheneneh/Geraldine variety.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Did you get an A?

Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Transvestism, while it does destabilize the assumption that gender is based on biological sex, does actually promote and reaffirm some rather oppressive stereotypes of "feminine" behavior and appearance, especially when the physical body becomes plastic through surgical procedure. (q.v. Amanda Lepore)

That said, I think you might have trouble proving that transgendered individuals actually feel oppressed by gender signifiers they have chosen.

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:33 (eighteen years ago) link

Did you get an A?

It was in the UK -- I don't remember how their crazy grading system worked.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:36 (eighteen years ago) link

"I wrote a whole paper on this once" = I have lots of thoughts on this, but I'm too tired to actually go into it now.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Most straight guys who wear women's clothing as a joke (Rocky Horror nights, Halloween) are doing it cuz it's fun; it's got fuck-all to do with misogyny or a latent hatred of women. Hobart paving OTM upthread.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Sorry if this sounds like I'm point out the obvious, but..

transverstism!=drag

And transgender issues are another thing altogether, and don't really belong in the same conversation.

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:39 (eighteen years ago) link

And telling someone to "suck cock" shows more unconscious fear/hatred of homosex than most straight men who wear fishnet and heels on Halloween.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:40 (eighteen years ago) link

No, I know, Hobart; the men I'm referring to are neither transexuals nor transvestites; they just like dressing like chicks on Halloween.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:41 (eighteen years ago) link

sorry, that was an x-post. A few of the posts above seem to conflate drag and transvestisism (or whatever the noun is). Not the same thing at all..

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:45 (eighteen years ago) link

he said 'choke on', not suck on. i would've thought anyone would not want to choke, regardless of what it is they're choking on and the whys.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:45 (eighteen years ago) link

i guess then you could substitute cock for....beernuts?

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:46 (eighteen years ago) link

I was being a little bit flip, steve... wrong thread for it, maybe.

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I understand the terms "drag" and "transvestism" are not synonymous, but what is the distinction? If a man lives "as a man" and dresses up on weekends to perform at a drag show, is practicing drag or transvestism? As distinct from men who dress up as chick for laffs, as well as distinct from men living "as women."

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:49 (eighteen years ago) link

i would've thought anyone would not want to choke, regardless of what it is they're choking on and the whys

your assumption would be wrong, for i know several people who quite enjoy choking on cock

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:51 (eighteen years ago) link

i guess then you could substitute cock for....beernuts?
-- Sociah T Azzahole (stevem7...), November 1st, 2005.

...and I'll reflect on this the next time I suck on a beernut.

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I understand the terms "drag" and "transvestism" are not synonymous, but what is the distinction? If a man lives "as a man" and dresses up on weekends to perform at a drag show, is practicing drag or transvestism? As distinct from men who dress up as chick for laffs, as well as distinct from men living "as women."
-- elmo (elmo.oxyge...), November 1st, 2005.

The situation you give is "drag", if I'm understanding your question correctly. The distinction is that the one is for "show" and the other is for more personal need.

I still don't really see that there's anything intrinsically offensive in a man wearing a dress. If it IS used to mock, that's another scenario entirely.

hobart paving (hobart paving), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:55 (eighteen years ago) link

PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO ACTUALLY CHOKE ON COCK ARE SICKO FREAKS AND MUST BE STOPPED.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I can think of precisely one case where a white dude dressing up as Ben Wallace has worked:

http://www.hrwiki.org/images/d/d9/StrongMad_BenWallace.PNG

disco violence (disco violence), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:13 (eighteen years ago) link

hey stelfox, choke on me wang

jdubz (ex machina), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:14 (eighteen years ago) link

On a more (attempted; failed) serious note there is definitely a post-South Park douchetarian "fuck you, I do what I want" anti-PC backlash element to a lot of things people of my generation consider worth fucking with in the pursuit of Boffo Laffs, because being "sensitive" of "other cultures" is for "fags". Just not sure how seven-year-olds fit into it. (Dumbshit parents? Another story.)

disco violence (disco violence), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:17 (eighteen years ago) link

the attitude that leads to avoiding actually vocalizing offensive words (vs. just indicating them with stuff like 'N*****' or 'f4g') is part and parcel with the attitude that has people convinced that God prefers being written as G-D

This is precisely what I mean: bad analogies.

-- Alfred Soto (sotoal...) (webmail), Today 10:18 AM. (Alfred Soto) (later) (link)

Explain to me how this is a bad analogy.

Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:30 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean a**logy.

Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Unlike "nigger" or "fag," "God" is not an offensive word -- and I'm a proud atheist!

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:41 (eighteen years ago) link

disco violence OTM

xpost There is at least one religion where it's sacrilegious to write the name of God fully. It might not be offensive to you, but it is to them.

Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:45 (eighteen years ago) link

ihttp://www.slamonline.com/links/dmiles.jpg

scrimhaw1837 (son_of_scrimshaw), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:46 (eighteen years ago) link

So is Darrell Hammond being racist when he dons blackface and does his Jesse Jackson impersonation?

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:48 (eighteen years ago) link

it's a good thing this kid didn't go as God Shamgod.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:49 (eighteen years ago) link

So is Darrell Hammond being racist when he dons blackface and does his Jesse Jackson impersonation?

Just unfunny like just about everything else on that show.

Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:51 (eighteen years ago) link

I got in a small altercation with a guy in blackface yesterday, but there was a reason: this guy couldn't claim to be ignorant of "historical context" and such, insofar as he'd actually drawn in the "comically" large blackface lips. Also: this was exactly 50% of his costume, the other 50% being a big-ass plastic clock medallion. I dunno: if he was supposed to be Flav, you'd think he could have found a track suit, right?

To be honest I think my annoyance has a lot to do with method. If someone's supposed to be a specific black person, and they've done a decent/realistic job with the makeup, that's not so bothersome. When people do their faces in all-around jet black apart from the lips, they look like minstrels and piss me off. When people just smear shoe polish around their faces like that's really, really hilarious, that pisses me off even more.

NB I sometimes think people who get offended by Apu are dipping into the backward-racist category: Apu doesn't really have any negative stereotypes associated with him! I mean, cooking him up for the purpose of running the convenience store is a little obvious, but beyond that they've made him pretty much the most dignified character on the show -- cf when his religion gets classified as "other" and he says "I am Hindu, there are nearly a billion of us."

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:52 (eighteen years ago) link

READ ONE OLD TESTAMENT

captin crunchheart (dr g), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean, I guess he is the only character who comes in for a little racial stereotyping, but they pretty quickly moved him past that, and the stereotyping isn't really "bad" unless you think there's something wrong with working at a convenience store, having an accent, or wearing 1970s immigrant pants (which I guess they should have updated five or six seasons in).

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:59 (eighteen years ago) link

i wonder if the reasons an adult, or especially a child, would wear blackface, or otherwise imitate the physical appearance of a famous black person, could go beyond simple racial stereotyping to something a little more complex. playing with racial identities in the sense of "dressing up" as another race could either enforce racial stereotypes or be a means to attempt transcending them, however clumsily. "how would i look/feel if my skin was black and i had a big afro?" etc.

the kid is obviously reacting to and absorbing the media he is growing up around. there are probably basketball player posters all over his room. maybe he is trying to inhabit that space, to bridge the gap between his white suburban existence and his black sports heroes.

ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:00 (eighteen years ago) link

… check out Deuteronomy. Also, talk to an orthodox Jew.

Remy (x Jeremy), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:01 (eighteen years ago) link

To be honest I think my annoyance has a lot to do with method. If someone's supposed to be a specific black person, and they've done a decent/realistic job with the makeup, that's not so bothersome. When people do their faces in all-around jet black apart from the lips, they look like minstrels and piss me off. When people just smear shoe polish around their faces like that's really, really hilarious, that pisses me off even more.

This is completely, totally and absolutely OTM.

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Darrell Hammond's Jesse Jackson is, like many of his impersonations, way too mannered: he leans on gestures and tics instead of conveying a more fluid impression.

jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:13 (eighteen years ago) link

When people do their faces in all-around jet black apart from the lips, they look like minstrels and piss me off.

That's what the kids looked like last night. Good-natured Ben Wallace appreciation by kids who don't know any better, yes, but also troubling negligence/ignorance on the part of the parents.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:15 (eighteen years ago) link

the kid is obviously reacting to and absorbing the media he is growing up around. there are probably basketball player posters all over his room. maybe he is trying to inhabit that space, to bridge the gap between his white suburban existence and his black sports heroes.

that and his parents dropped $100 on a ben wallace jersey.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

haha, true. im obviously interpreting a best case scenario.

ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

But Darrell Hammond's Bill Clinton is really good!

J (Jay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:18 (eighteen years ago) link

And the fake afros were much larger, very exaggerated.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm glad that most of his screentime is taken up by being The Anchorguy now.

It's too easy to picture an SNL writers' meeting where all the funny scripts have been read and everyone's in a good mood, and then Hammond stands up to say, "Hey, what if Donald Trump made a guest appearance on a soap opera?", chilling down the entire room.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:18 (eighteen years ago) link

That's what the kids looked like last night. Good-natured Ben Wallace appreciation by kids who don't know any better, yes, but also troubling negligence/ignorance on the part of the parents.

You know Andy, you could have avoided all of the fighting and nonsense on this thread by SAYING THAT at the beginning!

Dan ("Synthetic Skin Tone" = "Blackfaced Minstrel"???) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey, it was early.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 20:20 (eighteen years ago) link


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