Feminist Theory & "Women's Issues" Discussion Thread: All Gender Identities Are Encouraged To Participate

I refuse to read that thread after seeing Con Air anywhere except #1

i did my bit :(

I can't deal w his colour blindness - I always forget that's the deep reason for my disinterest. We're incompatible at a DNA level. (hey maybe my colourblindness is indicative of some deep gender incongruence rather than a double dose of genetic bad luck.)

I'm still feeling really really angry about this, like there is no discussion that men cannot take away, change the parameters of, and then dominate. While insulting you and blaming you for the schism. This is just so enraging. And then you get blamed and demonised for being made angry by it. There is this huge well of anger over this stuff, and every discussion of it that goes this way ends up really reinforcing that anger.

I'd had such a great day, I saw this amazing art show, had a great conversation and then something like this happens to make me feel disempowered. And I know that no one can make you feel this bad without your permission, but, like, as a woman, it's like there's really only one subject that you're ~allowed~ to be an expert on, that is your own womanhood, and they gotta wrench that away from you too.

And now the splainers will turn up to tell me "that's not what happened" but my god, that's what it feels like. This is where that deep rage comes from. And fuck that.

Talk about a guy who has been some interesting places in relation to redefining masculinity. I love Yorke's version of masculinity.

I'm not really aware of any of this! What makes him different from any number of other rock frontmen?

hey WCC. just wanted to talk abt gender, sex and biology in general terms. got the impression that this thread wasn't the place for it. wasn't intending to hijack the discussion, and the other discussion didn't really go where i'd hoped anyway :/

That's a good question but I think I'm actually still too angry and now slightly too drunk to even talk about my favourite subject of Thomosexuality. (my phone recognises Thomosexual as a word?)

I dunno, he's talked a bit in interviews about trying to find ways to express masculinity without lapsing into rock star cliches of aggression. He comes across as someone who lets himself be very vulnerable but in an open way, not an emo way or a wet, weedy way. The finding other ways to be sexy that don't involve thrusting domination. I'm too drunk / angry to be articulate about this.

i just keep thinking how when i read judith butler, judith halberstam and eve sedwick for the first time, it seemed to be about something incredibly important and personal to me. a lesbian, a tranny and probably most shockingly a woman who is married to a man. butler and sedgwick especially went beyond a sensitive deference to the different subjects they wrote about in some of their texts but i'm not the only homo who saw himself and was empowered by epistemology of the closet or bodies that matter. i think it has to go beyond typing about how you feel in ALL CAPS. and also to remind yourself that this idea that "gender is a social construct" is most often attributed to a the chapter in gender studies where she's writing about drag balls. i mean, i think this can be a problem with identity politics in general. to fetishise the subject position. there have to be ways of moving beyond this. undoing the subject position instead of endlessly rewriting it.

chapter in gender trouble

I've never read Judith Butler. I've read a bunch of books on neuroscience and anthropology and sociolinguistics and lots of analysis of scientific studies of the biological differences and overwhelming similarities between women and men. So that "lay off *these things you have never read*" is a bit of a wrong piece of advice. I don't want opinion and theory about what people think gender is. I'm interested in science and in personal experience of the constraints gender creates.

If ppl want to go create another thread, fine. But to carry on bitching about "omg blowback" bcuz a dude got asked for citation or gtfo on a wild assertion about the link between testosterone and violence? That's just insults.

I mean, this is yr gender role subversion right here, that it's the man wants to go on about his ~feelings~ about gender while the woman is saying "show me the science."

no one insulted you

Judith that's a great post and the idea of "undoing the subject position instead of endlessly rewriting it" is perfectly stated I think.

i guess i'm about as skeptical of science as being any more helpful or insightful.

When someone's going "but testosterone is proof of X" actual science regarding the chemical is very useful for proving that wrong and overly reductive.

But that discussion has moved to a different thread.

but the condition of science is doubt, it is only in certain contexts that scientific language ever affects certainty.

that is a good post like all your posts on this have been plax

But to carry on bitching about "omg blowback" bcuz a dude got asked for citation or gtfo on a wild assertion about the link between testosterone and violence? That's just insults.

hey WCC. i wouldn't describe my response as "bitching", and i've explained the science behind the link i'm drawing pretty clearly, both in this thread and the other. if you'd like to talk to me about it, i'd be happy to. fwiw, i don't believe i've directly insulted you at any point here. if i may, however, your language towards me has been moving quickly in that direction (asshole, butthurt, bitching, etc).

but the condition of science is doubt, it is only in certain contexts that scientific language ever affects certainty.

Hence Forster's (?) assertion of the 'factual' supremacy of fiction

butthurt, bitching, etc

was kind of lol'ing at the ironies of the choice of words there myself

those kinds of books are not anti-science or non-science either, i am a sciency person and i think judith butler et al are tremendously valuable. they help your brain grow.

lots xposts

Contenderizer has now posted some links (assuming you're staying out of the thread WCC, anyone else who is staying out of it) sadly I have to go to bed now as I'm up early again tomorrow, hopefully someone will check them out before too long...

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me? Is it something I've been taught to feel because I'm female and women are supposed to be social facilitators? Or is it universal, more or less?

(PS I do not have a problem wrt anger; I am in no way asking anyone not to be angry. Anger can be really positive. Or not; it's not for me to say how anyone should feel. I am in control of this urge to fix things, I think.)

The only thing to fight faux-science bollocks being spouted as truth is the actual scientific method.

I don't really have much time for Butler and other writers who use language to obfuscate. It makes no sense to me. Not in the way that ppl like Cordelia Fine and Deborah Cameron make sense. Sure, there's a place for both in the world, but I distrust theory without experimental data.

no Zora i agree and was about to suggest people leave the argumentative side of this alone for a bit until heads have cooled

The word "bitching" was chosen very carefully Contenderizer. I have found your tone from the start of that thread towards me snide and sarcastic - you want blowback, well you've made me angry so you've got what you were accusing me of.

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me?

I definitely don't like seeing people angry or making people angry & try to talk people down from it or make the conversation less serious usually. I am sad that a lot of people can't argue about things they are passionate about without getting angry! Especially those who have excellent insights!

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me?

nah I totally get this. mostly it just bums me out.

aw man ilx ate my post :(

xps okay but it isn't relevant to the point i was trying to make whether or not you care about judith butler. the point is that *I* do, and that many others do. the fact that her interrogations of gender and sexuality were important to many gay men and trannies, that is people who were not also lesbians like judith butler.

Pretty common social animal behavior right there, I'd say, Zora.

The only thing to fight faux-science bollocks being spouted as truth is the actual scientific method.

Without philosophy the scientific method would fail to question itself rigorously. In order to isolate cause from correlation you need the ability to understand the world philosophically.

I don't really have much time for Butler and other writers who use language to obfuscate. It makes no sense to me.

Butler doesn't use language to obfuscate. It's fairly simple to pick up how to read this sort of text. There's no need to be defensive about it. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to anybody.

Ah, I'm not sure I want to ask anyone to moderate their behaviour right now NV b/c I don't feel like the spatting has got to the point where the conversations are not working.

Everyone can judge that for themselves ofc. I can tolerate some discomfort. Very interested in all people have to say. Going to bed in any case. nn ILX x

No and it's such bullshit saying to people -especially a woman "don't be angry" when someone has gone poke, poke, poke at something that is the bone and blood if their life. It's Privilege, to be able to consider this stuff dispassionately "just theory man" and I'm sick of losing my authority when I become angry - because that is a classic double standard that gets thrown at women. Especially considering how much we have to angry about.

Fuck that.

knew you were gonna say that

Most people get their gender theories from stand-up comedians.

I do agree that if you're discussing biology, you absolutely need scientific research. However, a lot of what we are talking about is the social construction of gender, and for that you absolutely need sociology and theory and phenomenology and history.

and phrenelogy

and those little caliper things for measuring skull sizes

Well, you would need those caliper things for phrenology, yes. Are either of you actually making any kind of point?

I don't really have much time for Butler and other writers who use language to obfuscate. It makes no sense to me. Not in the way that ppl like Cordelia Fine and Deborah Cameron make sense. Sure, there's a place for both in the world, but I distrust theory without experimental data.

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, donderdag 16 februari 2012 0:45 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Excuse me, but you've been kicking a stir about how people here have opinions without having reads books you have read, or backing it up with statistics or research. But when Judith Butler comes up, you first say you haven't read her, followed immediately by a judgement, saying you "don't have time for her", as if you know her work?

The reason Con took his interests to another thread is because in this one people have to follow your view on things, or agree with you, or else you give them a hard time. People have to play by you rules and opinions here, or else...

These gender discussions online are just so pointless, they achieve nothing except bad blood and bad faith. I should have stuck to Yhom Torke's hair, but anger eats you up inside, and now there's this whole ~disapproval~ of the fact I said I was angry. Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, WCC.

Jesus fucking Christ. That's right "don't make assertions about testosterone without a citation" is a matter of ~following my opinion~. Yup, that's right.

science is a social construct

If I went on a thread and said "hey I think climate change is caused by dragon breath" without a citation, I'd expect to be given a hard time.

xxxxxxp

i was just list-building tbh. i completely agree about philosophy's place within scientific method, and wd have argued that privileging experimental data above other methods of sense-making feels kinda kierarchical in itself?

WCC for what it's worth i wasn't disapproving of you or anybody being angry and i wasn't just talking about you when i said i hoped people cd take a step back. i just hate to see anger becoming something that hurts the bearer rather than a righteous venting

so is gender theory xp

WCC, I am saying you called people out on their opinion while not having read certain books. You say you aren't familiar with Butler's work yet immediately dismiss it as if she "uses language to obsfucate"...

Science is just a social construct. True. But batshit opinions about ~testosterone~ are the gods honest truth. Also dragons.

WCC for what it's worth i wasn't disapproving of you or anybody being angry and i wasn't just talking about you when i said i hoped people cd take a step back. i just hate to see anger becoming something that hurts the bearer rather than a righteous venting

― dayove cool (Noodle Vague), donderdag 16 februari 2012 1:01 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and this, yes.

I knew I should have gone to bed - WCC if you think my post was a sideways attack on you for being angry, it totally wasn't.

I think people should refrain from insulting one another if at all possible, should certainly not throw kettles at each other's heads or stab with knives, but neither should they refrain from expressing anger whilst simmering in bitter fury until their guts are all twisted up and all their relationships have soured, or suppress their anger so deep that they become passive little lettuce leaves floating along on a tide of other people's opinions. Anger is an honest and valid emotion, it can be harmful and it can be constructive.

I just had a moment's curiosity as to whether my discomfort was another gender-related social construct because I have often felt at a disadvantage in situations where other people, usually men, have *appeared* to handle angry conflict situations in a less... self-compromising...? way than I do.